England v Wales - let it all out thread

[yappysnap]

First topic message reminder :

To hopefully stop the usual suspects from ruining more threads, could both nations wums just throw all of their toys out of the pram on this one?

Two weeks until the game and already it's like a full moon at the crazy house.

Thanks in advance

[RuggerRadge2611]

Can't believe my post about Gethin got reported, too many sensitive souls here, for heavens sake!

Its not like I mentioned how a high percentage of the athletes who are banned for using performance enhancing drugs in the UK are low level Welsh rugby players is it!

You think that's sensitive? I would disagree. Sensitive is when a poster complains about me saying that Launchbury is overrated. What's worse is that the reporter is likely one of the ones who has said AWJ is overrated.

Neither are as good as Johnny Gray

[TightHEAD]

I think Lawes is more overrated, I've never seen him have a good game.

[funnyExiledScot]

I shall throw some of my thoughts into the mix:

- Craig Joubert is the ref, which means almost anything could happen. Both teams will need to respond very quickly to his eccentric interpretations and constant whistle. He'll have one of two things in his head from the start of the game that he's going to penalise. The captain who works out what these are first will gain a big advantage.

- England should stick with those players who are doing a good job. In fact I wouldn't change the 23 that beat Ireland, despite having some reservations over a couple of players (I still don't like Farrell at 12 and do wonder whether Clifford would be more effective at 7 than Haskell).

- Wales need to just get Gareth Davies to keep doing what he's been doing. He's been a real match winner over the last 12 months and his breaks with ball in hand have elevated him to being a top class international player (that's "Very World Class" in Welsh I believe).

- Faletau vs Vunipola will be epic.

- AWJ vs Itoje will be epic.

Looking forward to it!

[TightHEAD]

- Wales need to just get Gareth Davies to keep doing what he's been doing. He's been a real match winner over the last 12 months and his breaks with ball in hand have elevated him to being a top class international player (that's "Very World Class" in Welsh I believe).

[BamBam]

I shall throw some of my thoughts into the mix:

- Craig Joubert is the ref, which means almost anything could happen. Both teams will need to respond very quickly to his eccentric interpretations and constant whistle. He'll have one of two things in his head from the start of the game that he's going to penalise. The captain who works out what these are first will gain a big advantage.

- England should stick with those players who are doing a good job. In fact I wouldn't change the 23 that beat Ireland, despite having some reservations over a couple of players (I still don't like Farrell at 12 and do wonder whether Clifford would be more effective at 7 than Haskell).

- Wales need to just get Gareth Davies to keep doing what he's been doing. He's been a real match winner over the last 12 months and his breaks with ball in hand have elevated him to being a top class international player (that's "Very World Class" in Welsh I believe).

- Faletau vs Vunipola will be epic.

- AWJ vs Itoje will be epic.

Looking forward to it!

I agree with pretty much all of this, but wonder if Davies is currently better suited to being the impact guy off the bench? He hasn't looked to have the best control with kicking and passing, and I wonder if Webb will be a better option as the starter for getting the backs going.

When both fit, thats a fearsome prospect for the rest of us

[Poorfour]

Fair analysis Ruby, and I would agree with most of it.

Eddie's not actually selecting anyone particularly different - Hartley is back in the side courtesy of not being banned, Farrell is at 12 because Slade and Tuilagi are injured and arguably May might have been picked over Watson if fit. The difference is in the bench - only Mako and Goode would have been on Lancaster's bench - and in what the bench players do. In each of the games so far, several players have come off the bench and made decisive contributions, in Itoje's case winning him promotion to what's probably 3rd choice if Launchbury is fit.

Lancaster's bench selections, on the other hand, seemed picked to close games out but rarely did - and it definitely cost us against Wales.

That one change gives me a lot of hope, but he's also improved the setpiece and defensive system from the RWC, if at the cost of losing a bit of attacking shape.

I was going to say that if England are in touch at 60 minutes then I think they can win it from the bench, but that wouldn't be a fair reflection of how good Wales's end game is. Basically, it will be the two fittest and most relentless teams in the competition going at each other, and it could well be a case of last score wins.

It could also be a case of whoever gets on the right side of the ref wins, though I hope it isn't. How do Wales feel about Joubert?

[beshocked]

Wasn't Craig Joubert the ref when England got pinged off the field against Ireland last season?

Don't think England will be too pleased to see him!

[yappysnap]

I think Lawes is more overrated, I've never seen him have a good game.

When he came on the field he looked like a stroppy child, didn't look happy about being benched. But then he's been average for a while so what does he expect? Needs to up his game maaaassively to get back in to contention. And i'm a Lawes fan.

[Scottrf]

I think Lawes is more overrated, I've never seen him have a good game.

You're surely saying that for effect, but check out the Aviva Prem Final 2014.

[beshocked]

To be fair to Lawes didn't he only get 5 minutes? Seemed pointless to bring him on for that little amount of time.

Every player wants gametime. I don't blame Lawes for being annoyed about being benched. If he can respond in a positive manner then it will only make him stronger.

[yappysnap]

Joubert is pretty whistle happy, pretty card happy, and very picky about certain things. Basically he could absolutely ruin some of our players (Haskell, Farrell).

Wales seem a lot smarter then us so far, they cope with pressure a lot better (more faith and understanding of their systems and coaches?).

But saying that, if not for a very lucky kick off a French foot that Friday game could have been a lot closer, and we'd have seen how Wales deal with a lot more pressure as France grew into the game.

[yappysnap]

To be fair to Lawes didn't he only get 5 minutes? Seemed pointless to bring him on for that little amount of time.

Every player wants gametime. I don't blame Lawes for being annoyed about being benched. If he can respond in a positive manner then it will only make him stronger.

He's running out at Twickenham for his country, yes he can be unhappy at the time given to him, but don't look like a child, relish that chance and make the most of it.

[beshocked]

To be honest I think Haskell and Farrell for example can ruin their own matches without the ref giving them a helping hand!

We don't know how Eddie Jones' England can cope with pressure really as they haven't been under that much. I guess they were a bit vs Ireland but kept Ireland out thanks to some last ditch interventions.

Wales haven't faced a team as tough as England yet and vice versa.

England's defence seems to have more bite since Gustard has taken over from Farrell Sr. Of course Wales' defence is good too but Wales will need to deal with England's line speed which should be a step up on what they've faced so far.

[RubyGuby]

Yappy - you've seen how we cope with pressure - it doesn't get more pressurised when your in a depleted team away to England in a RWC in a must win game. Composure won that for wales and conversely the other team couldn't handle pressure. Whilst I appreciate there are some subtle changes to your team the welsh team are capable of going behind in 2 weeks and not panicking. Why are you wondering how an established team cope with pressure when you saw it a few months ago?

[Hoonercat]

Thunor, nice to see a humble Englishman who is in touch with reality. I hope you can rub off on the likes of Hoonercat, Hammersmith and englandglory .

Keep your dirty little fantasies to yourself, Puff.

I've got no idea which way to call this one. I'm not convinced that this will be the pressure game for England that some predict, they'll be looking for revenge for the World Cup and EJ is just the man to talk them up for it. That's not necessarily a good thing though as they can have a tendency to do the headless chicken routine in the first 20 giving away shedloads of penalties. Looking forward to the game but and hoping it's not a frustrating penalty giveaway from England, tighten up on discipline and I think they will take the win. Oddly, I'd feel more confident if they were playing this in Cardiff  
At the start of the tournament I had England down for 2nd place and I can't see that changing, even if they beat Wales I'm not convinced they will win away to France.

God I'm so full of humility it's sickening.

[Scottrf]

He's running out at Twickenham for his country, yes he can be unhappy at the time given to him, but don't look like a child, relish that chance and make the most of it.

Perhaps you haven't seen Lawes before, that's just his face. Stop trying to analyse it.

[beshocked]

yappysnap 5 minutes is barely enough time to make a good impact. I agree an England cap should be relished but every player has the desire to get as much gametime as possible.

Rubyguby indeed Wales showed good composure against England.... will they this time though?

We'll see. Of course it's only sides who play England who are depleted, England are at full strength every match for the full 80 minutes....

[RubyGuby]

Of course it's only sides who play England who are depleted, England are at full strength every match for the full 80 minutes....

You were at Full strength in that match - You were depleted when you beat us in Cardiff but then again that forced Lancaster to pick the likes of Kruise and the rest is history - Why are you taking on the role of victim, you are beginning to sound like Milwall fans.

[Geordie]

To be honest I think Haskell and Farrell for example can ruin their own matches without the ref giving them a helping hand!

We don't know how Eddie Jones' England can cope with pressure really as they haven't been under that much. I guess they were a bit vs Ireland but kept Ireland out thanks to some last ditch interventions.

Wales haven't faced a team as tough as England yet and vice versa.

England's defence seems to have more bite since Gustard has taken over from Farrell Sr. Of course Wales' defence is good too but Wales will need to deal with England's line speed which should be a step up on what they've faced so far.

I agree.

I wasn't hugely impressed with Farrell in any aspect on Saturday, and think we can find better.

But Haskell is so frustrating. I think he has been an absolute rock in defence. He has been aggresive and knocks people backwards. But he gives away dangerous penalties.

[funnyExiledScot]

To be fair to Lawes didn't he only get 5 minutes? Seemed pointless to bring him on for that little amount of time.

Every player wants gametime. I don't blame Lawes for being annoyed about being benched. If he can respond in a positive manner then it will only make him stronger.

He's running out at Twickenham for his country, yes he can be unhappy at the time given to him, but don't look like a child, relish that chance and make the most of it.

He's got role models like Captain Hartley, Owen Farrell and Michael Noel Brown to look up to. Looking stroppy and petulant is de rigueur.

[funnyExiledScot]

To be honest I think Haskell and Farrell for example can ruin their own matches without the ref giving them a helping hand!

We don't know how Eddie Jones' England can cope with pressure really as they haven't been under that much. I guess they were a bit vs Ireland but kept Ireland out thanks to some last ditch interventions.

Wales haven't faced a team as tough as England yet and vice versa.

England's defence seems to have more bite since Gustard has taken over from Farrell Sr. Of course Wales' defence is good too but Wales will need to deal with England's line speed which should be a step up on what they've faced so far.

I agree.

I wasn't hugely impressed with Farrell in any aspect on Saturday, and think we can find better.

But Haskell is so frustrating. I think he has been an absolute rock in defence. He has been aggresive and knocks people backwards. But he gives away dangerous penalties.

This sums him up perfectly. He has the physique to be devastatingly effective and often is, but sadly nothing between the ears. I don't think he'll last very long under Eddie Jones, who will eventually settle on having a smarter operator in the 7 jersey. Haskell's best chance for a longer term place in the side is to oust Robshaw at 6, but I don't think that'll happen.

I think Jack Clifford will have the 7 jersey by the AIs.

[yappysnap]

I still wonder if Hask would have started any of these games if not for the glowing endorsement from Wallaby flanker legend (and Haskells club team mate...) George Smith.

EJ obviously rates George, hence bringing him in to help tutor.

[funnyExiledScot]

I still wonder if Hask would have started any of these games if not for the glowing endorsement from Wallaby flanker legend (and Haskells club team mate...) George Smith.

EJ obviously rates George, hence bringing him in to help tutor.

That's probably not far from the truth. Jones is new to the job and new to English rugby. He's bound to trust experience in the first instance and listen to people he trusts. To be clear I think Haskell has done a pretty decent job in the 6 Nations thus far, but as with Farrell at 12, I don't think he's the long term answer to propel England into RWC challengers.

[Poorfour]

This sums him up perfectly. He has the physique to be devastatingly effective and often is, but sadly nothing between the ears. I don't think he'll last very long under Eddie Jones, who will eventually settle on having a smarter operator in the 7 jersey. Haskell's best chance for a longer term place in the side is to oust Robshaw at 6, but I don't think that'll happen.

I think Jack Clifford will have the 7 jersey by the AIs.

I hope you're right. I've been saying for a while that Clifford is like Haskell with meaning. Similar physical presence, but far, far less prone to stupidity.

[thomh]

I don't think anyone thinks Haskell will be the 7 long term, but for now we probably need the physicality he brings against that Wales backline. Hopefully not coincidental that Wales was his stand-out performance in last year's Six Nations.

Haskell and Clifford would actually be an interesting combo, with the extra speed that would come with it.

[JDizzle]

England seem to have, haven't actually checked, to have scored a lot of their tries (certainly against Italy and Ireland) heading into the last quarter, which suggests that they have worn sides down and have then taken advantage. Will be interesting to see if they can do this against Wales, who pride themselves on their fitness and defence, and whether their bench will help them in this.

Another note on England, Ford got marched back a lot in defence on Saturday. Not missing tackles, but giving up plenty of ground in contact. Wales must look to isolate him in one vs one situations against North, JD2 etc. and either get over the gain line and get quick ball or look for the offload out of the tackle (Yes, optimistic I know).

I'd say England are favourites on balance, home advantage the deciding factor, but would not be surprised to see Wales snatch a low scorer. Ben Youngs also seem to give Wales trouble with his sniping around the fringes and letting runners come off him narrow to the ruck, as Wales are pushing up on the outside - so would look for England to exploit this with Billy V and Itoje coming off 9.

[DaveM]

Another note on England, Ford got marched back a lot in defence on Saturday. Not missing tackles, but giving up plenty of ground in contact. Wales must look to isolate him in one vs one situations against North, JD2 etc. and either get over the gain line and get quick ball or look for the offload out of the tackle (Yes, optimistic I know).

Always happens. He doesn't lack commitment, just size.

[mikey_dragon]

Joubert might suit Wales slightly, but I think that's down to us having him officiate more of our test matches in recent times(just going off the top of my head here). I think Joubert is a pretty bad ref, but neither of us are facing a SH team so it might not be as bad as I've previously witnessed. At the scrum he certainly favours the team going forward, regardless of driving angle. The breakdown however, I haven't the slightest idea how he interprets it.

[quinsforever]

england to win comfortably.

hartley has shored up scrum and lineout x2. team spirit and morale much better than under lancaster. fun suits billy and look how well he is playing. chance to redress a home RWC loss. hartley is much smarter than robshaw (much as it pains me to admit it). and eddie has 100x more nous than lancaster.

wales will not deviate from their gameplan.

england by 15-20

[quinsforever]

just watched scrumv. alfie, jiffie and ali williams.

its the best rugby show on the planet. hearts on sleeves. objective about prospects.

love it.

still say england by 15. but god i love that show.

[Geordie]

I see Manu has been called up, but also Ewers.

They're both barely recovered from injuries....Surely it's just familiarisation not actually a chance of playing.

[JDizzle]

Another note on England, Ford got marched back a lot in defence on Saturday. Not missing tackles, but giving up plenty of ground in contact. Wales must look to isolate him in one vs one situations against North, JD2 etc. and either get over the gain line and get quick ball or look for the offload out of the tackle (Yes, optimistic I know).

Always happens. He doesn't lack commitment, just size.

Oh yeah, not for one moment doubting his commitment. Just think at some point a side is going to take advantage of it, and could be crucial given how turgid most of the games have been so far.

[Gwlad]

Pretty sure if i took a selection of pre RWC fixture posts i'd read how England were favorites on balance, home advantage pack dominance etc etc.

Fact is that may be true, but it clearly wasn't then and there is a significant difference in experience between these 2 sides.

England simply haven't really been tested yet and IMO they will be by Wales.

Our front row is looking very solid so traditional scrum dominance is by no means guaranteed. I would like to see Charteris back and not sure on his fitness.

Fact is most expected Wales to be beaten by England, the hosts, at home, at RWC. They dug deeper than most teams i have ever seen and i reckon they may have to do that again and will edge a very tight game.

[robbo277]

England to win 32-28. 28-25 down with a couple to go, late penalty in kickable range, go to the corner and this time get the try. Move on to France and blow another GS game!

[Poorfour]

Pretty sure if i took a selection of pre RWC fixture posts i'd read how England were favorites on balance, home advantage pack dominance etc etc.

Fact is that may be true, but it clearly wasn't then and there is a significant difference in experience between these 2 sides.

England simply haven't really been tested yet and IMO they will be by Wales.

Our front row is looking very solid so traditional scrum dominance is by no means guaranteed. I would like to see Charteris back and not sure on his fitness.

Fact is most expected Wales to be beaten by England, the hosts, at home, at RWC. They dug deeper than most teams i have ever seen and i reckon they may have to do that again and will edge a very tight game.

Taking these one at a time:

- Is there actually a significant difference in experience between these two sides? The England cap count for the Wales game will probably be just under 700. I can't easily find the Welsh stats, but I'd be quite surprised if it's that much higher given the post-RWC turnover in personnel. Gatland has been in place longer than Eddie, obviously, but Eddie's been an international coach for a very long time.

- "England simply haven't really been tested yet..." Funny that. Before the Scotland match, there was a lot of chat about how Scotland were the best NH performers in the RWC, a whisker away from a semi-final, a settled side with a dangerous backline and all that. England win, and they're wooded spoon contenders. Before the Ireland match, there was plenty of chat about how Ireland were the reigning champions and would offer a sterner test. England win, and they're wooden spoon contenders. It's funny how none of these games is a test after the fact. Wales will be a harder side to beat than the ones England have faced so far, but it's not as if Ireland are pushovers. How did Wales do against them? Remind me.

- "Traditional scrum dominance" hasn't been a clear pattern over the last 4 years. Wales had the edge until Steve Walsh retired, then England had the edge for a couple of years, then Lancaster changed too much too quickly, but England still just about had the nudge in the pack. But I'd agree that this is one that could go both ways. I'd be surprised if England get shoved around, but I could see it descending into a lottery. It'd be nice if for once both coaches would tell their teams to scrummage for possession, not for penalties.

- Can't argue too much with you there. The Welsh bench in the RWC was decisive, the England bench and substitutions were a failure of imagination. But the biggest difference that Eddie has made so far is in selecting and using substitutes far more effectively.

I expect the first half to be an arm wrestle and I wouldn't be surprised if England's indiscipline sees Wales go in ahead but still in touch. The game will probably open up dramatically about the 60 minute mark, and I think it might come down to last score wins. The more you look at it, the harder it is to call.

[doctor_grey]

Pretty sure if i took a selection of pre RWC fixture posts i'd read how England were favorites on balance, home advantage pack dominance etc etc.

Fact is that may be true, but it clearly wasn't then and there is a significant difference in experience between these 2 sides.

England simply haven't really been tested yet and IMO they will be by Wales.

Our front row is looking very solid so traditional scrum dominance is by no means guaranteed. I would like to see Charteris back and not sure on his fitness.

Fact is most expected Wales to be beaten by England, the hosts, at home, at RWC. They dug deeper than most teams i have ever seen and i reckon they may have to do that again and will edge a very tight game.

I agree about Wales against England in the RWC. Wales clearly showed they were mentally tougher than England in that match. They won a match they had no business winning, which was an amazing accomplishment. It doesn't matter which England players were substituted and what decisions were made - Wales had players out of position, just hanging on. To me, it is all on England now to show they have righted the ship and that they have the ability to close out the match, assuming they are ahead in the last 20.

[LondonTiger]

Don't know beshocked, did have a quick look as I couldn't remember and I saw him around Haskell and felt it was very unfair to say he encouraged that ill discipline. You're the one who seemed to have an issue with the 2 now 1 penalty, just thought you'd be able to give detail. it comes across as looking for issues to be honest so you can campaign for George.

Hartley was penalised for hands in the ruck just before he was subbed.

So far in the Hartley v George debate:

Scotland - good day for Hartley, promising from George but 3 minutes not enough to judge.
Italy - pro day for Hartley, George looked better.
Ireland - good day for Hartley, George struggled when he came on.

[No 7&1/2]

2 good choices for me, but it goes back to questions about if we're looking currently to ease George in or if he's battling for the spot. I know plenty would have chosen Geroge to start but for me he's not pushing hard enough (performances wise) to merit starting in front of Hartley.

[funnyExiledScot]

England simply haven't really been tested yet and IMO they will be by Wales.

- "England simply haven't really been tested yet..." Funny that. Before the Scotland match, there was a lot of chat about how Scotland were the best NH performers in the RWC, a whisker away from a semi-final, a settled side with a dangerous backline and all that. England win, and they're wooded spoon contenders. Before the Ireland match, there was plenty of chat about how Ireland were the reigning champions and would offer a sterner test. England win, and they're wooden spoon contenders. It's funny how none of these games is a test after the fact. Wales will be a harder side to beat than the ones England have faced so far, but it's not as if Ireland are pushovers. How did Wales do against them? Remind me.

Agreed 100%. It's ridiculous to say that England haven't been tested thus far. They beat a Scotland team on home turf and high on confidence (the same Scotland who came within a score of Wales), made an Italy team who ran France extremely close look very ordinary indeed and beat Ireland with something to spare, the same Ireland team who drew with Wales.

Yes, they haven't faced once of the top sides in the World (i.e. one of the WC semi-finalists), but to say that Wales will be a test whereas Ireland were not is a bit silly. I didn't think Ireland played that badly, England were just more clinical.

My prediction: England will win, but Wales will be within a score. I think England have improved from the WC, and I don't think Jones will make the same mistakes as Lancaster in terms of replacements. I think England will get revenge.

[Geordie]

Fes / Pourfour,

I raised that exact point on another thread.
Scotlands much vaunted back row would teach us a lesson. They didn't, but then we hear Scotland are a wooden spoon team.

Ireland reigning champions would territorially and tactically annihilate us....they didn't, but then we hear...ah they're rebuilding, too many injuries, not in form etc etc.

Its been by no means perfect but we've won. I'll happily have the same again v Wales.

[mikey_dragon]

Taking these one at a time:

- Is there actually a significant difference in experience between these two sides? The England cap count for the Wales game will probably be just under 700. I can't easily find the Welsh stats, but I'd be quite surprised if it's that much higher given the post-RWC turnover in personnel. Gatland has been in place longer than Eddie, obviously, but Eddie's been an international coach for a very long time.

- "England simply haven't really been tested yet..." Funny that. Before the Scotland match, there was a lot of chat about how Scotland were the best NH performers in the RWC, a whisker away from a semi-final, a settled side with a dangerous backline and all that. England win, and they're wooded spoon contenders. Before the Ireland match, there was plenty of chat about how Ireland were the reigning champions and would offer a sterner test. England win, and they're wooden spoon contenders. It's funny how none of these games is a test after the fact. Wales will be a harder side to beat than the ones England have faced so far, but it's not as if Ireland are pushovers. How did Wales do against them? Remind me.

- "Traditional scrum dominance" hasn't been a clear pattern over the last 4 years. Wales had the edge until Steve Walsh retired, then England had the edge for a couple of years, then Lancaster changed too much too quickly, but England still just about had the nudge in the pack. But I'd agree that this is one that could go both ways. I'd be surprised if England get shoved around, but I could see it descending into a lottery. It'd be nice if for once both coaches would tell their teams to scrummage for possession, not for penalties.

- Can't argue too much with you there. The Welsh bench in the RWC was decisive, the England bench and substitutions were a failure of imagination. But the biggest difference that Eddie has made so far is in selecting and using substitutes far more effectively.

I expect the first half to be an arm wrestle and I wouldn't be surprised if England's indiscipline sees Wales go in ahead but still in touch. The game will probably open up dramatically about the 60 minute mark, and I think it might come down to last score wins. The more you look at it, the harder it is to call.

I assumed Gwlad meant that there was the same predictions, etc. from fans before the world cup game. There was a lot of talk about England having the edge in the scrum and bench back then, just like there is a bit of it now. It's like nobody has watched Wales have the edge over their previous 3 opponents at the set piece. I also assume he meant there isn't much difference in form and capability between both teams, which for years there hasn't been. We'll likely be hearing about how an inexperienced, injury-ridden England team have been punching above their weight though. It's not like some of their clubs have been dominant in their competitions.

You're right there certainly was a lot of chat about how Scotland were the best NH performers in the RWC. I've always disagreed though. I feel Ireland and Wales were slightly better at the pool stage. The Scots were either on par or slightly worse than Wales in the quarter final. Scotland and Italy are wooden spoon contenders most years, Scotland losing their opening two games suggested they would be this year too. Ireland yet to win a game, then yeah they're also potentially wooden spoon contenders - nothing funny about it. Ireland are still a good team though and it was a tough test that England dominated in some parts, whilst falling off in other parts (seems to be a trend with England in recent times). Wales' draw is probably not that relevant to this but I felt they were wrongfully awarded a penalty near the end to get it.

So if Wales previously had the dominance because of Walsh, can we also conclude that England had dominance due to Poite? It is a bit of a lottery but as I've said Wales have a good set piece at the moment. How do you rate England's?

Wales now have a stronger bench. It could include Jenkins or James, Owens, Francis, Charteris, Tips, Webb and some average outside backs.

An arm wrestle? Yeah possibly, but Wales tend to win those battles. England would be better off keeping the ball in play and moving Wales around, throwing it wide to their speedsters; that always seemed to work when England did that under Lancaster. Being as I'm Welsh, I'll go for the Wales win.

[yappysnap]

Another note on England, Ford got marched back a lot in defence on Saturday. Not missing tackles, but giving up plenty of ground in contact. Wales must look to isolate him in one vs one situations against North, JD2 etc. and either get over the gain line and get quick ball or look for the offload out of the tackle (Yes, optimistic I know).

Always happens. He doesn't lack commitment, just size.

Oh yeah, not for one moment doubting his commitment. Just think at some point a side is going to take advantage of it, and could be crucial given how turgid most of the games have been so far.

I think the worst of that occurred when Hask was binned, seemed to leave Ford with a lot more to do and with less help, Wales certainly targeted him well in that period too. Otherwise it didn't seem a problem.

[HammerofThunor]

- Is there actually a significant difference in experience between these two sides? The England cap count for the Wales game will probably be just under 700. I can't easily find the Welsh stats, but I'd be quite surprised if it's that much higher given the post-RWC turnover in personnel. Gatland has been in place longer than Eddie, obviously, but Eddie's been an international coach for a very long time.

The cap counts from the last two starting teams were:

England (v Ireland): total 527 or 35.1 per man
Wales (v France): total 675 or 45 per man

Roughly 30% more 'experience' overall. Biggest difference is in the backs (+50%) compared with forwards (+15%)

[Sgt_Pooly]

Agree with some posts that Wales will certainly be tougher opposition than what we've already faced. It's the two form teams in the 6N and really could go either way.

[No 7&1/2]

As ever with Wales and England, it could go either way. Bar that freak result the games and results have been tight affairs swinging to either side.

[Jimpy]

Agree with some posts that Wales will certainly be tougher opposition than what we've already faced. It's the two form teams in the 6N and really could go either way.

Meh.. Wales play one way and one way only under Gatland. Its credit only to their continuity and fitness that they've managed to drag themselves back into matches to either win (or draw) of late.

Last time out at Twickenham, England had them on the rack - and it wasn't for the first time in recent years either. Some bizarre game management by both Lancaster and Robshaw cost them the match. Eddie Jones has a (the) stronger bench and has shown that he uses it skilfully to strengthen the team. He wont make the same mistakes as his predecessors.

Providing England remain disciplined enough to counter what most agree is a pretty one dimensional Welsh game, England should win with breathing space to spare. Wales have been average so far, especially v France (who luckily for Wales were even more average). I'm more worried about the France game as it would be just like them to suddenly click and play as a team against England - their backs are terrifying if they put more than 3 phase together.

[LondonTiger]

There is bugger all Jones can do if England's two best performing players get crocked early in the second half. Sure lancaster made some odd calls, but injury forced replacements should not be blamed on him (though the quality of those replacements could).

[lostinwales]

England have done an excellent job of muzzling the structured Wales attack over the last 3 games. The RWC try was anything but structured and it is a sign that Wales can do it if they are forced to, but it isn't what they seem to like to do with Gatland at the helm.

The big problem is of course penalties. Its nice that on Saturday that although we gave far too many penalties away they were seldom kickable (although when they were Sexton went for the corner instead of going for the points a couple of times). But it is an area where we could really suffer.

We have also found ways through the Welsh defense, but its not at all easy, and sods law dictates that we could easily play like we did against Ireland 1st half, with everything going well except the scoreboard.

Less worried about lineouts after the Ireland game although we should not be able to get to Wales like we did Ireland. Scrums should be fine. Wales are running rookies at prop, and they might be promising players but they are still rookies and they won't have faced a scrum as good as ours yet

I just pray its not down to something controversial this time. Had enough of those thanks

[munkian]

'Providing England remain disciplined enough to counter what most agree is a pretty one dimensional Welsh game, England should win with breathing space to spare'

[nobbled]

Yes Wales play route 1 rugby. Yes they are blydi good at it.
But can they only play that way? I don't think so and I hope to hell EJ doesn't or we will be handed our @rses in a couple of weeks.

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