England v Wales - let it all out thread

[yappysnap]

First topic message reminder :

To hopefully stop the usual suspects from ruining more threads, could both nations wums just throw all of their toys out of the pram on this one?

Two weeks until the game and already it's like a full moon at the crazy house.

Thanks in advance

[mikey_dragon]

Fair enough, I hadn't seen any of those, that behaviour is not welcome at a rugby match, and these idiots need to be told, but before you get on your high horse, take a look at some of these:-

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/nov/11/foul-mouths-boo-boys-twickenham-england-all-blacks

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/nov/11/shamed-by-bigoted-england-rugby-fans-at-all-blacks-game

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11227491/Rugby-Football-Union-to-open-investigation-after-England-fans-subject-referee-Nigel-Owens-to-homophobic-abuse.html


There are pages more if you check the interweb.

That's 3-2 to us then. Unlucky wrfc, but you did bring it up.

[LordDowlais]

There's loads more as well mikey, also I bet if we changed the search from England to any other country there would be just as many.

[carpet baboon]

But thankfully these idiots are still in the minority no matter which country / club you look at,and hopefully it will always be that way.

[mikey_dragon]

But thankfully these idiots are still in the minority no matter which country / club you look at,and hopefully it will always be that way.

True, which is why I don't usually bring up that sort of thing. I was previously speaking of fans comments on multiple forums I frequent, which is more relevant as V2 is one of those.

[BamBam]

Fair enough, I hadn't seen any of those, that behaviour is not welcome at a rugby match, and these idiots need to be told, but before you get on your high horse, take a look at some of these:-

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/nov/11/foul-mouths-boo-boys-twickenham-england-all-blacks

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/nov/11/shamed-by-bigoted-england-rugby-fans-at-all-blacks-game

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11227491/Rugby-Football-Union-to-open-investigation-after-England-fans-subject-referee-Nigel-Owens-to-homophobic-abuse.html


There are pages more if you check the interweb.

That's 3-2 to us then. Unlucky wrfc, but you did bring it up.

I wouldn't be so pathetic as to use it go points score, but that's 3 articles about the same incident?

[mikey_dragon]

I was kidding, I thought it was pathetic to bring it up in the first place. I didn't really want to keep on talking about it either. But as usual it's okay for others to discuss it and not Mikey? I got you.

[wrfc1980]

But your the one that keeps bringing up arrogant English fans etc, hows that any less pathetic than the much more serious articles about drunken thuggish violent Welsh fans?

[Luckless Pedestrian]

It doesn't help that this was a Friday night game and (some) people in the crowd had probably been drinking all day. I remember hearing there was a nasty atmosphere at the Friday night Wales v England game last season.

[mikey_dragon]

But your the one that keeps bringing up arrogant English fans etc, hows that any less pathetic than the much more serious articles about drunken thuggish violent Welsh fans?

I said in a previous post that it's relevant because it concerns discussions on this forum. I personally haven't participated in any thuggish behavior at live games, and as others have pointed out why is it only brought up when Welsh fans do it? It happens everywhere and it's a behavior not influenced by someone's nationality.

[Hoonercat]

I wouldn't pay to read people slagging off Wales all the time either to be honest, but there's probably a number of English that would.

We don't need to slag off the Welsh to make them look bad Mikey, you're doing a fine job all by yourself Keep up the good work

[wrfc1980]

When the police chief of Wales comments on routine poorly behaved fans at Welsh internationals who are much more difficult to deal with than football fans then you know there is fairly big problem. The fact he went public about it shows the concens the police have for public safety etc in Cardiff on match day.

[Breadvan]

Its been like that for years in Cardiff and on public transport on rugby international day. Nothing new tbh. The majority of these ppl are not rugby fans but on an all dayer in the big city with a game thrown in. Its more a sad indictment of why ppl are going to the MS. Watch a game or get lashed, wear a daffodil hat and try to get on the big screen?

[Jimpy]

Its been like that for years in Cardiff and on public transport on rugby international day. Nothing new tbh. The majority of these ppl are not rugby fans but on an all dayer in the big city with a game thrown in. Its more a sad indictment of why ppl are going to the MS. Watch a game or get lashed, wear a daffodil hat and try to get on the big screen?

I've found that although the MS is a good venue, transport links are diabolical, especially for trains heading East. Its been the cause of many a scene of friction.

Unbelievable really, that a stadium should be built and for transport links not to be taken into consideration.

[RiscaGame]

Its been like that for years in Cardiff and on public transport on rugby international day. Nothing new tbh. The majority of these ppl are not rugby fans but on an all dayer in the big city with a game thrown in. Its more a sad indictment of why ppl are going to the MS. Watch a game or get lashed, wear a daffodil hat and try to get on the big screen?

Yet these are the idiots that some think the regions/pro teams should try and attract to our games.

[Scottrf]

I've found that although the MS is a good venue, transport links are diabolical, especially for trains heading East. Its been the cause of many a scene of friction

That's just the nature of a 80,000 seater stadium. I got out in about 40 minutes after the world cup, which isn't much different from the queuing up Wembley way after an England game, waiting for the queue of buses at Twickenham etc.

[sad_gimp]

I like the idea of this thread....but can we get one started that's actually about the rugby? Obviously plenty to discuss regarding fans and media to keep this one going on it's own.

[Jimpy]

I've found that although the MS is a good venue, transport links are diabolical, especially for trains heading East. Its been the cause of many a scene of friction

That's just the nature of a 80,000 seater stadium. I got out in about 40 minutes after the world cup, which isn't much different from the queuing up Wembley way after an England game, waiting for the queue of buses at Twickenham etc.

On the other hand, the last train heading east beyond Bristol, left at 20 minutes after the final whistle was due to blow in the Australia v Fiji WC match there.

There were still people there the next morning.

That is of course, down to the individual rail companies, but its symptomatic of the subjective isolation of the place with regards to public transport links.

[Breadvan]

Its been like that for years in Cardiff and on public transport on rugby international day. Nothing new tbh. The majority of these ppl are not rugby fans but on an all dayer in the big city with a game thrown in. Its more a sad indictment of why ppl are going to the MS. Watch a game or get lashed, wear a daffodil hat and try to get on the big screen?

Yet these are the idiots that some think the regions/pro teams should try and attract to our games.

They'll all be at judgemant day 4 too...

[RiscaGame]

Paper aeroplane throwing contests again.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Does anyone remember a poster called Cabbagesandbrussels on the old 606? He always popped up when there was an England v Wales game on the horizon.

Those were the days...

[Breadvan]

Preserved killick used to post random Phil Coillins lyrics on threads that had gone south.
Sigh...

[lostinwales]

I think I can just about remember the days when this was a rugby forum

[Guest]

I've found that although the MS is a good venue, transport links are diabolical, especially for trains heading East. Its been the cause of many a scene of friction

That's just the nature of a 80,000 seater stadium. I got out in about 40 minutes after the world cup, which isn't much different from the queuing up Wembley way after an England game, waiting for the queue of buses at Twickenham etc.

On the other hand, the last train heading east beyond Bristol, left at 20 minutes after the final whistle was due to blow in the Australia v Fiji WC match there.

There were still people there the next morning.

That is of course, down to the individual rail companies, but its symptomatic of the subjective isolation of the place with regards to public transport links.

How is Cardiff isolated in terms of transport links? It has a motorway running through the middle of it direct from London and from the west in the opposite direction. It has railway running through the middle also direct from London and the west too. It has an airport less than 30 mins drive from the City Centre with buses going to it. It has coaches (e.g. StageCoach) running to and from all major cities. It's the opposite of isolated! Mid Wales: that's isolated.

Agree that the train companies need to do more. First Great Western, a London based train operator, is the main provider running trains into and out of Wales from the East. Why they don't put on more is anyone's guess? Surely they'd pocket some more profit on those days?

[Rugby Fan]

I often think one of the reasons for clashes between England and Welsh fans is over how we see the Six Nations.

Actually, we both see it is the same way: it's a title we both value and both dearly want. However, England supporters don't always sound like they do value it, which understandably winds up Welsh supporters no end.

A lot of this is down to our experiences at the World Cup, and not simply in a "we've got one, you haven't" fashion. Woodward's England did finally win the Cup but we had a lot of painful years blowing Grand Slams and Six Nations titles on the way. I know there's a lot of talk about how those failures helped build the team's bloody-mindedness but I don't really buy it. Quite simply, we kept letting our NH rivals get to us.

As an England fan, this was excruciating but the pain was relieved because the team went on a tear against the SH sides at the same time. The heartbreak of losing in the Six Nations was offset by a winning streak we could only have dreamed of in the past...and today.

To win a World Cup, a NH team will likely have to beat at least two out of South Africa, Australia and New Zealand. Consequently, England supporters tend to look at how we are doing against them to assess whether we've got a sniff.

That may well come across to rival six nations fans as if England supporters take wins in the North for granted. For me, at least, that's certainly not the case. I'm almost resigned to some teams in the 6N giving us a wedgie every year.

The thing is, though, over a four year World Cup cycle, we also usually end up beating the 6N teams who beat us, so it's hard for me to feel like we should ever go into a tournament feeling we are outclassed against them.

A major exception to that statement is the pile of victories Ireland ran up over England from early 2004 to 2011. It's an appalling thing to say, but I was so obsessed with my own team's problems, that I didn't really notice Ireland were taking us to the cleaners on such a regular basis. Call it arrogance if you will, but I think I was more guilty of ignorance.

I'm ashamed to admit than it took me until the 2009 Lions tour to realize how superior a lot of the Irish and Welsh players were by comparison with the English.

In my defence, England had made it to a World Cup final in 2007 when both those sides didn't get out of the pools. It's harder to notice a team has your number when you are seemingly outperforming them in other areas.

Since Ireland stopped beating us so regularly, no Six Nations team has consistently had the upper hand over us, so it's not really surprising that England supporters don't have an inferiority complex with any opponent in that tournament.

Nor do we have a superiority complex. Another aspect of my ignorance was to hang on to the belief that a Grand Slam is a rare achievement in rugby. A cursory look at the record shows Grand Slams to be increasingly common but just not for England. We have a great recent win record in the competition and a horrible one when it comes to the damn title, let alone a sweep.

I want a Grand Slam but I want a World Cup more. For too long, I've probably accepted six nations failures as part of some larger plan to win another Cup. After all, it happened to Clive's team. I think what I missed along the way is that winning even a title, and certainly a Grand Slam, demands that you can hold your nerve at key moments.

Realistically, the last time England held their nerve was in back-to-back wins against Australia and France in the 2007 tournament. Even our 2011 6N title win ended sourly with a comprehensive loss to Ireland. Has there ever been a more doleful title winner?

If I was a Welsh fan, I wouldn't ask why English fans think they can beat Wales, because the answer is simple: we've done it in recent memory, home and away. The question I'd put instead is: Why do you think you can beat Wales when it counts? "When it counts" is a bit contingent, to say the least, but Lancaster lost three times to Wales. On two occasions, it cost him a Grand Slam, on the other, it sent us out of the World Cup. Ergo, we haven't recently won against Wales when it counts.

The match this weekend counts, because if England lose, Wales will likely take the title. England could win and still go on to  lose the title to France but we probably get nothing with a loss, and could risk falling to two 6N losses for the first time since 2010.

If all this sounds like England are sorry sacks by comparison with Wales, then it's not all one way traffic. England supporters have a valid point when we bring up the lack of success Wales has experienced against New Zealand, Australia, and South Africa.

I'm proud of rugby in the North. It frustrates me that England have failed to win more titles but I'm not ashamed, because I think we've lost to better teams. What infuriates me, is when these same teams can't transfer their winning mentality to beating teams in the south. If no-one in the North was beating them, then fair enough, but England have a good record against Australia. Not just the occasional surprise win, but a regular habit of beating them as much as they beat us.

To me, that means Australia, at least, have been there to be beaten by teams who have regularly humbled England. It's a sore on the backside of rugby in the north that Wales have not managed to do so. When the leading teams in the north can't dispatch southern competition on a better-than-average basis, then we all look bad.

The good thing is, Welsh supporters know this. There's a tangible impatience now about the Welsh game plan. It may yet be enough to claim another 6N title but it looks well short of beating even one southern hemisphere team in a World Cup, let alone two. If Welsh supporters start to feel 6N titles no longer feed the beast, then maybe we'll all start to be on the same page. Why not demand a side which can beat the best?

Wales has had fantastic players over the years, players who really make you feel excited about the game. We wonder about which England players might qualify as world class but names like Halfpenny, Roberts, Warburton, Faletau and North come instantly to mind when you think of Wales and we could easily add some other names too. There must be a strategy which can put these guys to work for more wins against the south than they've managed so far.

The Six Nations shouldn't be a second division. When Woodward beat the SH but couldn't win a 6N title, it started to make the south look like the second tier. Let's not kid ourselves, we never got to that point but the south didn't feel on top, and I'd happily settle for that now.

[yappysnap]

That is a brilliant post Rugby Fan.

It'll probably go straight over the heads of the guys who are competing to see who's fans have the most negative media record. But I appreciate it.

[exile jack]

Of course a win for Wales will probably keep Gatland in his job for a while but a loss might force you into making some changes.

I think Gatland will be there nomatter what - he's there until after the next RWC as I understand it.  He has made some astonishingly poor selection decisions over the years and picked players WAY off form, but it's another case of 'His record speaks for itself', etc.

If we don't beat England, I think there will certainly be a lot of talk of Howler and McBryde going, as I believe their contracts expire very soon.  The main criticism thrown at Wales for a good few years now has been a lack of attack and we can only really blame Howley for that - it's his job.

If we DO win though, I have a horrible feeling that Howley and McBride are in for the long haul too...

Gats has stated publicly that his coaching team is world class.The rumour that refuses to die because no one in the media appears willing to ask the question is that RH and RMcB have been told they both need Head Coach/Director of Rugby appointments at leading clubs/regions/provinces if they want to be considered as our Head Coach in 2019.Also,it will be interesting to see who leads Wales on the Pacific Islands tour in 2017 when Gats could be in NZ in some role with the Lions.

Good joke by Gats then. He himself is a world class coach but he is often too loyal to underperforming players and coaches. That's probably his only flaw because otherwise he's a top bloke. As for the two numpties being told that then I certainly hope it's true. Now they'll just need to find a leading club willing to take them on, I can only wish them the best of luck with that.

Mikey,it could be that world class is a euphemism for that well known phrase "they have my full confidence",and we know what that means.NZ could be make or break for those two.

[DirtyRucker7]

We have a Billy Vinapola, the lad has a habit of beating the Welsh he loves tearing them up

[DirtyRucker7]

I actually fear for Wales we will be tearing them a new one they really don't stand a chance #prayforwales

[Gwlad]

We have a Billy Vinapola, the lad has a habit of beating the Welsh he loves tearing them up

Yes like last September he really teared us one before he went off with a limp.

[carpet baboon]

Rugby fan.

Best post I have read in ages.

[Jimpy]

Rugby fan.

Best post I have read in ages.

To be fair, on this article, that wouldn't be difficult. Mikey makes Donald Trump look articulate.

[No 7&1/2]

Brilliant post by Rugby Fan.

[robbo277]

I often think one of the reasons for clashes between England and Welsh fans is over how we see the Six Nations.

Actually, we both see it is the same way: it's a title we both value and both dearly want. However, England supporters don't always sound like they do value it, which understandably winds up Welsh supporters no end.

A lot of this is down to our experiences at the World Cup, and not simply in a "we've got one, you haven't" fashion. Woodward's England did finally win the Cup but we had a lot of painful years blowing Grand Slams and Six Nations titles on the way. I know there's a lot of talk about how those failures helped build the team's bloody-mindedness but I don't really buy it. Quite simply, we kept letting our NH rivals get to us.

As an England fan, this was excruciating but the pain was relieved because the team went on a tear against the SH sides at the same time. The heartbreak of losing in the Six Nations was offset by a winning streak we could only have dreamed of in the past...and today.

To win a World Cup, a NH team will likely have to beat at least two out of South Africa, Australia and New Zealand. Consequently, England supporters tend to look at how we are doing against them to assess whether we've got a sniff.

That may well come across to rival six nations fans as if England supporters take wins in the North for granted. For me, at least, that's certainly not the case. I'm almost resigned to some teams in the 6N giving us a wedgie every year.

The thing is, though, over a four year World Cup cycle, we also usually end up beating the 6N teams who beat us, so it's hard for me to feel like we should ever go into a tournament feeling we are outclassed against them.

A major exception to that statement is the pile of victories Ireland ran up over England from early 2004 to 2011. It's an appalling thing to say, but I was so obsessed with my own team's problems, that I didn't really notice Ireland were taking us to the cleaners on such a regular basis. Call it arrogance if you will, but I think I was more guilty of ignorance.

I'm ashamed to admit than it took me until the 2009 Lions tour to realize how superior a lot of the Irish and Welsh players were by comparison with the English.

In my defence, England had made it to a World Cup final in 2007 when both those sides didn't get out of the pools. It's harder to notice a team has your number when you are seemingly outperforming them in other areas.

Since Ireland stopped beating us so regularly, no Six Nations team has consistently had the upper hand over us, so it's not really surprising that England supporters don't have an inferiority complex with any opponent in that tournament.

Nor do we have a superiority complex. Another aspect of my ignorance was to hang on to the belief that a Grand Slam is a rare achievement in rugby. A cursory look at the record shows Grand Slams to be increasingly common but just not for England. We have a great recent win record in the competition and a horrible one when it comes to the damn title, let alone a sweep.

I want a Grand Slam but I want a World Cup more. For too long, I've probably accepted six nations failures as part of some larger plan to win another Cup. After all, it happened to Clive's team. I think what I missed along the way is that winning even a title, and certainly a Grand Slam, demands that you can hold your nerve at key moments.

Realistically, the last time England held their nerve was in back-to-back wins against Australia and France in the 2007 tournament. Even our 2011 6N title win ended sourly with a comprehensive loss to Ireland. Has there ever been a more doleful title winner?

If I was a Welsh fan, I wouldn't ask why English fans think they can beat Wales, because the answer is simple: we've done it in recent memory, home and away. The question I'd put instead is: Why do you think you can beat Wales when it counts? "When it counts" is a bit contingent, to say the least, but Lancaster lost three times to Wales. On two occasions, it cost him a Grand Slam, on the other, it sent us out of the World Cup. Ergo, we haven't recently won against Wales when it counts.

The match this weekend counts, because if England lose, Wales will likely take the title. England could win and still go on to  lose the title to France but we probably get nothing with a loss, and could risk falling to two 6N losses for the first time since 2010.

If all this sounds like England are sorry sacks by comparison with Wales, then it's not all one way traffic. England supporters have a valid point when we bring up the lack of success Wales has experienced against New Zealand, Australia, and South Africa.

I'm proud of rugby in the North. It frustrates me that England have failed to win more titles but I'm not ashamed, because I think we've lost to better teams. What infuriates me, is when these same teams can't transfer their winning mentality to beating teams in the south. If no-one in the North was beating them, then fair enough, but England have a good record against Australia. Not just the occasional surprise win, but a regular habit of beating them as much as they beat us.

To me, that means Australia, at least, have been there to be beaten by teams who have regularly humbled England. It's a sore on the backside of rugby in the north that Wales have not managed to do so. When the leading teams in the north can't dispatch southern competition on a better-than-average basis, then we all look bad.

The good thing is, Welsh supporters know this. There's a tangible impatience now about the Welsh game plan. It may yet be enough to claim another 6N title but it looks well short of beating even one southern hemisphere team in a World Cup, let alone two. If Welsh supporters start to feel 6N titles no longer feed the beast, then maybe we'll all start to be on the same page. Why not demand a side which can beat the best?

Wales has had fantastic players over the years, players who really make you feel excited about the game. We wonder about which England players might qualify as world class but names like Halfpenny, Roberts, Warburton, Faletau and North come instantly to mind when you think of Wales and we could easily add some other names too. There must be a strategy which can put these guys to work for more wins against the south than they've managed so far.

The Six Nations shouldn't be a second division. When Woodward beat the SH but couldn't win a 6N title, it started to make the south look like the second tier. Let's not kid ourselves, we never got to that point but the south didn't feel on top, and I'd happily settle for that now.

Agree with every word.

Having the Six Nations labelled the RWC 2015 "5th-placed play-off" hurts us all and hurts the eventual winner. However, the Six Nations are all guilty of prioritising winning the Championship and being "best of the rest" then developing the style, skills and gameplan to become the best of the best.

Whatever your solution, whether it comes down to moving the tournament to the summer months, bonus points or just the attitude of the respective coaches, we need to change something so that we see more NH victories over the SH teams and more NH teams competing at the sharp end of World Cups.

[doctor_grey]

I think a lot of it comes down to the stupid and overlong season we have. Our international players bounce back and forth from club to country and back again, and have little continuity with either. I don't care how well paid our coaches are or who they are or where they come from. During any regular season how can our players work in parallel and continue to perform at their maximum potential? How can our coaches put in a game plan and ensure it is practiced to perfection? Frankly this discontinuity simply highlights how surprising the 2003 RWC win actually was. And as we get further into the professional era, it will continue to be difficult.

That and simply too much Rugby breaks our boys. This needs to be fixed first.

[beshocked]

doctor grey I agree to some extent but for the RWC we had plenty of time to prepare.

Just didn't prepare well enough.

England have more resources and a bigger player pool than any other nations and yet we stll have fundamental problems.

Nothing to do with rest. Can't find someone to fill the inside centre position since Greenwood.

Can't find a proper backrow balance since Back,Hill and Dallaglio.


It's silly that us England fans are pinning our inside centre hopes on one player whose made his career as an international 13 so far and has had many injuries. The other player is someone who has played primarily as a 10 a little bit at 13 but not 12, he's also injured.

Other inside centre prospects like Burrell and Daly have played their best rugby at 13.

Smacks of desperation doesn't it? Our current 12 is someone whose played his best rugby at 10 and is effectively just a stop gap in the centres.

[Tattie Scones RRN]

We have a Billy Vinapola, the lad has a habit of beating the Welsh he loves tearing them up

Yes like last September he really teared us one before he went off with a limp.

*tore*

[Tattie Scones RRN]

Rugby Fan

I don't know who you think you are, but your post has absolutely no place here. It's well balanced, articulate, thoughtful and interesting.

[exile jack]

I often think one of the reasons for clashes between England and Welsh fans is over how we see the Six Nations.

Actually, we both see it is the same way: it's a title we both value and both dearly want. However, England supporters don't always sound like they do value it, which understandably winds up Welsh supporters no end.

A lot of this is down to our experiences at the World Cup, and not simply in a "we've got one, you haven't" fashion. Woodward's England did finally win the Cup but we had a lot of painful years blowing Grand Slams and Six Nations titles on the way. I know there's a lot of talk about how those failures helped build the team's bloody-mindedness but I don't really buy it. Quite simply, we kept letting our NH rivals get to us.

As an England fan, this was excruciating but the pain was relieved because the team went on a tear against the SH sides at the same time. The heartbreak of losing in the Six Nations was offset by a winning streak we could only have dreamed of in the past...and today.

To win a World Cup, a NH team will likely have to beat at least two out of South Africa, Australia and New Zealand. Consequently, England supporters tend to look at how we are doing against them to assess whether we've got a sniff.

That may well come across to rival six nations fans as if England supporters take wins in the North for granted. For me, at least, that's certainly not the case. I'm almost resigned to some teams in the 6N giving us a wedgie every year.
09:50:29
The thing is, though, over a four year World Cup cycle, we also usually end up beating the 6N teams who beat us, so it's hard for me to feel like we should ever go into a tournament feeling we are outclassed against them.

A major exception to that statement is the pile of victories Ireland ran up over England from early 2004 to 2011. It's an appalling thing to say, but I was so obsessed with my own team's problems, that I didn't really notice Ireland were taking us to the cleaners on such a regular basis. Call it arrogance if you will, but I think I was more guilty of ignorance.

I'm ashamed to admit than it took me until the 2009 Lions tour to realize how superior a lot of the Irish and Welsh players were by comparison with the English.

In my defence, England had made it to a World Cup final in 2007 when both those sides didn't get out of the pools. It's harder to notice a team has your number when you are seemingly outperforming them in other areas.

Since Ireland stopped beating us so regularly, no Six Nations team has consistently had the upper hand over us, so it's not really surprising that England supporters don't have an inferiority complex with any opponent in that tournament.

Nor do we have a superiority complex. Another aspect of my ignorance was to hang on to the belief that a Grand Slam is a rare achievement in rugby. A cursory look at the record shows Grand Slams to be increasingly common but just not for England. We have a great recent win record in the competition and a horrible one when it comes to the damn title, let alone a sweep.

I want a Grand Slam but I want a World Cup more. For too long, I've probably accepted six nations failures as part of some larger plan to win another Cup. After all, it happened to Clive's team. I think what I missed along the way is that winning even a title, and certainly a Grand Slam, demands that you can hold your nerve at key moments.

Realistically, the last time England held their nerve was in back-to-back wins against Australia and France in the 2007 tournament. Even our 2011 6N title win ended sourly with a comprehensive loss to Ireland. Has there ever been a more doleful title winner?

If I was a Welsh fan, I wouldn't ask why English fans think they can beat Wales, because the answer is simple: we've done it in recent memory, home and away. The question I'd put instead is: Why do you think you can beat Wales when it counts? "When it counts" is a bit contingent, to say the least, but Lancaster lost three times to Wales. On two occasions, it cost him a Grand Slam, on the other, it sent us out of the World Cup. Ergo, we haven't recently won against Wales when it counts.

The match this weekend counts, because if England lose, Wales will likely take the title. England could win and still go on to  lose the title to France but we probably get nothing with a loss, and could risk falling to two 6N losses for the first time since 2010.

If all this sounds like England are sorry sacks by comparison with Wales, then it's not all one way traffic. England supporters have a valid point when we bring up the lack of success Wales has experienced against New Zealand, Australia, and South Africa.

I'm proud of rugby in the North. It frustrates me that England have failed to win more titles but I'm not ashamed, because I think we've lost to better teams. What infuriates me, is when these same teams can't transfer their winning mentality to beating teams in the south. If no-one in the North was beating them, then fair enough, but England have a good record against Australia. Not just the occasional surprise win, but a regular habit of beating them as much as they beat us.

To me, that means Australia, at least, have been there to be beaten by teams who have regularly humbled England. It's a sore on the backside of rugby in the north that Wales have not managed to do so. When the leading teams in the north can't dispatch southern competition on a better-than-average basis, then we all look bad.

The good thing is, Welsh supporters know this. There's a tangible impatience now about the Welsh game plan. It may yet be enough to claim another 6N title but it looks well short of beating even one southern hemisphere team in a World Cup, let alone two. If Welsh supporters start to feel 6N titles no longer feed the beast, then maybe we'll all start to be on the same page. Why not demand a side which can beat the best?

Wales has had fantastic players over the years, players who really make you feel excited about the game. We wonder about which England players might qualify as world class but names like Halfpenny, Roberts, Warburton, Faletau and North come instantly to mind when you think of Wales and we could easily add some other names too. There must be a strategy which can put these guys to work for more wins against the south than they've managed so far.

The Six Nations shouldn't be a second division. When Woodward beat the SH but couldn't win a 6N title, it started to make the south look like the second tier. Let's not kid ourselves, we never got to that point but the south didn't feel on top, and I'd happily settle for that now.

Rugby Fan,there is much,much to admire about English rugby but an afternoon at Twickers reminds you that self-deprecation,humility and respect for the opposition are not the most obvious facets of the English game.That is why so many countries love to stick it to England.Why England did not build upon 2003 is a subject I don't feel qualified to comment upon but I take the view that NH rugby must have a team or teams that are setting the performance standard for the others to follow and that pre-2003 team set the bar for the NH rest.

Wrt Wales,the decision to recruit Gats was an inspired one.He has given us a style and a pattern of play,though it's not universally popular.It's come close on several occasions to beating the SH so it's close but no cigar.Whether Gats' coaching team is sufficiently well balanced is the key question for me and the England game and then the NZ tour should answer that question once and for all.

I don't buy this SH innately superior to the NH argument,but i've come to the conclusion that they get consistently high performance out of their players and if NZ are the benchmark the quality of their entire coaching team must be a key factor.

Good luck for Saturday week.

[Jimpy]

I think a lot of it comes down to the stupid and overlong season we have.  Our international players bounce back and forth from club to country and back again, and have little continuity with either.  I don't care how well paid our coaches are or who they are or where they come from.  During any regular season how can our players work in parallel and continue to perform at their maximum potential?  How can our coaches put in a game plan and ensure it is practiced to perfection?  Frankly this discontinuity simply highlights how surprising the 2003 RWC win actually was.  And as we get further into the professional era, it will continue to be difficult.  

That and simply too much Rugby breaks our boys.  This needs to be fixed first.

Which is why I firmly believe that the Lions should be given up as a bad job. I'm constantly vilified for expressing this opinion, but the game has moved on from the Halcyon days of amateur era rugby. The sport is as much a business as it is a sport, and whether people care to admit it or not, the players are assets. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

We have a Billy Vinapola, the lad has a habit of beating the Welsh he loves tearing them up

Yes like last September he really teared us one before he went off with a limp.

*tore*

[Cyril]

When Woodward beat the SH but couldn't win a 6N title

I assume you mean a Grand Slam. Woodward's England won the 6Ns title in 2000 and 2001 before getting the slam in 2003.

[stub]

I often think one of the reasons for clashes between England and Welsh fans is over how we see the Six Nations.

Actually, we both see it is the same way: it's a title we both value and both dearly want. However, England supporters don't always sound like they do value it, which understandably winds up Welsh supporters no end.

A lot of this is down to our experiences at the World Cup, and not simply in a "we've got one, you haven't" fashion. Woodward's England did finally win the Cup but we had a lot of painful years blowing Grand Slams and Six Nations titles on the way. I know there's a lot of talk about how those failures helped build the team's bloody-mindedness but I don't really buy it. Quite simply, we kept letting our NH rivals get to us.

As an England fan, this was excruciating but the pain was relieved because the team went on a tear against the SH sides at the same time. The heartbreak of losing in the Six Nations was offset by a winning streak we could only have dreamed of in the past...and today.

To win a World Cup, a NH team will likely have to beat at least two out of South Africa, Australia and New Zealand. Consequently, England supporters tend to look at how we are doing against them to assess whether we've got a sniff.

That may well come across to rival six nations fans as if England supporters take wins in the North for granted. For me, at least, that's certainly not the case. I'm almost resigned to some teams in the 6N giving us a wedgie every year.

The thing is, though, over a four year World Cup cycle, we also usually end up beating the 6N teams who beat us, so it's hard for me to feel like we should ever go into a tournament feeling we are outclassed against them.

A major exception to that statement is the pile of victories Ireland ran up over England from early 2004 to 2011. It's an appalling thing to say, but I was so obsessed with my own team's problems, that I didn't really notice Ireland were taking us to the cleaners on such a regular basis. Call it arrogance if you will, but I think I was more guilty of ignorance.

I'm ashamed to admit than it took me until the 2009 Lions tour to realize how superior a lot of the Irish and Welsh players were by comparison with the English.

In my defence, England had made it to a World Cup final in 2007 when both those sides didn't get out of the pools. It's harder to notice a team has your number when you are seemingly outperforming them in other areas.

Since Ireland stopped beating us so regularly, no Six Nations team has consistently had the upper hand over us, so it's not really surprising that England supporters don't have an inferiority complex with any opponent in that tournament.

Nor do we have a superiority complex. Another aspect of my ignorance was to hang on to the belief that a Grand Slam is a rare achievement in rugby. A cursory look at the record shows Grand Slams to be increasingly common but just not for England. We have a great recent win record in the competition and a horrible one when it comes to the damn title, let alone a sweep.

I want a Grand Slam but I want a World Cup more. For too long, I've probably accepted six nations failures as part of some larger plan to win another Cup. After all, it happened to Clive's team. I think what I missed along the way is that winning even a title, and certainly a Grand Slam, demands that you can hold your nerve at key moments.

Realistically, the last time England held their nerve was in back-to-back wins against Australia and France in the 2007 tournament. Even our 2011 6N title win ended sourly with a comprehensive loss to Ireland. Has there ever been a more doleful title winner?

If I was a Welsh fan, I wouldn't ask why English fans think they can beat Wales, because the answer is simple: we've done it in recent memory, home and away. The question I'd put instead is: Why do you think you can beat Wales when it counts? "When it counts" is a bit contingent, to say the least, but Lancaster lost three times to Wales. On two occasions, it cost him a Grand Slam, on the other, it sent us out of the World Cup. Ergo, we haven't recently won against Wales when it counts.

The match this weekend counts, because if England lose, Wales will likely take the title. England could win and still go on to  lose the title to France but we probably get nothing with a loss, and could risk falling to two 6N losses for the first time since 2010.

If all this sounds like England are sorry sacks by comparison with Wales, then it's not all one way traffic. England supporters have a valid point when we bring up the lack of success Wales has experienced against New Zealand, Australia, and South Africa.

I'm proud of rugby in the North. It frustrates me that England have failed to win more titles but I'm not ashamed, because I think we've lost to better teams. What infuriates me, is when these same teams can't transfer their winning mentality to beating teams in the south. If no-one in the North was beating them, then fair enough, but England have a good record against Australia. Not just the occasional surprise win, but a regular habit of beating them as much as they beat us.

To me, that means Australia, at least, have been there to be beaten by teams who have regularly humbled England. It's a sore on the backside of rugby in the north that Wales have not managed to do so. When the leading teams in the north can't dispatch southern competition on a better-than-average basis, then we all look bad.

The good thing is, Welsh supporters know this. There's a tangible impatience now about the Welsh game plan. It may yet be enough to claim another 6N title but it looks well short of beating even one southern hemisphere team in a World Cup, let alone two. If Welsh supporters start to feel 6N titles no longer feed the beast, then maybe we'll all start to be on the same page. Why not demand a side which can beat the best?

Wales has had fantastic players over the years, players who really make you feel excited about the game. We wonder about which England players might qualify as world class but names like Halfpenny, Roberts, Warburton, Faletau and North come instantly to mind when you think of Wales and we could easily add some other names too. There must be a strategy which can put these guys to work for more wins against the south than they've managed so far.

The Six Nations shouldn't be a second division. When Woodward beat the SH but couldn't win a 6N title, it started to make the south look like the second tier. Let's not kid ourselves, we never got to that point but the south didn't feel on top, and I'd happily settle for that now.

Perfectly put - not a hint arrogance there rugby fan!

[rainbow-warrior]

Wales have a 3 test series in New Zealand in June, this will be their best opportunity to beat the AB's. Wales will have had the 6 Nations plus the game vs England before travelling down to Aotearoa. The AB's will be playing their first game with a very new squad possibly why they are playing the first test at Eden Park a place they are unbeaten for an eon. If Wales take their best players injury free then who knows. Hopefully they will beat the Chiefs in Hamilton. Still be great to watch Wales 4 times this year.

[robbo277]

I really fear for the 6 Nations teams this summer.

England - 3 tests in Aus
Wales - 3 tests in NZ
Ireland - 3 tests in SA
Scotland - 2 tests in Japan
France - 2 tests in Argentina
Italy - tests in Argentina, Canada and USA.

England, Wales and Ireland all face tough tours, while France have decided to schedule their tour to clash with their domestic play-offs, so will be missing a raft of players.

It will be interesting to see how Japan go without Eddie and the amount of time afforded to them before the World Cup, so you'd fancy Scotland should take that series.

You'd think if Italy take their end of season tour seriously and take out their best side they'd have a good chance, but if they look at fringe players they could come unstuck.

[doctor_grey]

doctor grey I agree to some extent but for the RWC we had plenty of time to prepare.

Just didn't prepare well enough.

England have more resources and a bigger player pool than any other nations and yet we stll have fundamental problems.

Nothing to do with rest. Can't find someone to fill the inside centre position since Greenwood.

Can't find a proper backrow balance since Back,Hill and Dallaglio.


It's silly that us England fans are pinning our inside centre hopes on one player whose made his career as an international 13 so far and has had many injuries. The other player is someone who has played primarily as a 10 a little bit at 13 but not 12, he's also injured.

Other inside centre prospects like Burrell and Daly have played their best rugby at 13.

Smacks of desperation doesn't it? Our current 12 is someone whose played his best rugby at 10 and is effectively just a stop gap in the centres.

Mate, I am not saying our coaching staff didn't screw the pooch.  Clearly they did.  And we have rightfully beaten that corpse into Haggis.  That got us to the down-side, the failing to get out of our pool.  

However, could that team actually have won the whole thing?  On paper, and looking at the up-side of the players we had the answer is we did indeed have the potential to have won the RWC. My point is considering the season structure it would be incredibly difficult for almost any coach to get us over that line.  Knowmsayin?

[Gwlad]

We have a Billy Vinapola, the lad has a habit of beating the Welsh he loves tearing them up

Yes like last September he really teared us one before he went off with a limp.

*tore*

No, Blly teared us a new one

[No 7&1/2]

Me fail English. That's unpossible.

[RubyGuby]

We have a Billy Vinapola, the lad has a habit of beating the Welsh he loves tearing them up

Yes like last September he really teared us one before he went off with a limp.

*tore*

No, Blly teared us a new one

It might also help if the fella spells his name right before commenting on the grammatical slurs - It's Vunipola by the way.

[BamBam]

We have a Billy Vinapola, the lad has a habit of beating the Welsh he loves tearing them up

Yes like last September he really teared us one before he went off with a limp.

*tore*

No, Blly teared us a new one

It might also help if the fella spells his name right  before commenting on the grammatical slurs - It's Vunipola by the way.

Its "Billy" too

[LondonTiger]

We have a Billy Vinapola, the lad has a habit of beating the Welsh he loves tearing them up

Yes like last September he really teared us one before he went off with a limp.

*tore*

No, Blly teared us a new one

It might also help if the fella spells his name right  before commenting on the grammatical slurs - It's Vunipola by the way.

It might help if you actualy read the name of the person correcting the grammatical error before accusing them of being the op.

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