6N 2016: England v Wales, 12 March

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ENGLAND v WALES
12 March 2016
KO: 16:00 GMT
Twickenham, London

Live on ITV, RTE, SC4, FR2, DMAX / BBC (H)

Referee: Craig Joubert (South Africa)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

119 Played 119
53 Won 54
12 Drawn 12
54 Lost 53
1,428 Points 1,371

B. Recent Form

26 September 2015: Twickenham, London
25 – 28 to Wales
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A

6 February 2015: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
16 – 21 to England
2015 Six Nations

9 March 2014: Twickenham Stadium, London
29 – 18 to England
2014 Six Nations

16 March 2013: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
30 – 3 to Wales
2013 Six Nations

25 February 2012: Twickenham Stadium, London
12 – 19 to Wales
2012 Six Nations

13 August 2011: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 9 to Wales
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test

6 August 2011: Twickenham, London
23 – 19 to England
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test

C. Teams

ENGLAND

[tbc]

WALES

[tbc]

I hope Joubert has a good game for his sake. I've never really been too impressed with him, he also has a reputation of favouring the perceived-stronger team. He normally is quite quick to reach for his whistle, but I'm unsure what to expect from him; whether he'll want to show he has confidence in his decisions and go to his whistle early, or whether he'll try to keep his head down and let more go.

What is for sure is that if the game is close (within a score either way), people from the losing team will find cause to complain. They'll point to 1 or 2 penalties their team conceded and say they shouldn't have been penalties and 1 or 2 instances where the other team could have been penalised, all the while ignoring the 10 other penalties their team concedes as well as the error count and any times the other team was harshly penalised. If they're truly committed, they'll make a 30 minute youtube video recapping some of the key footage and where they think the referee made errors.

He'll be mainly hoping for no major mistakes!

Griff whether you like it or not - cheating has always been part of rugby. Just some aspects are accepted, some are not.

Generally it's affectionally called the "dark arts" in the frontrow when it reality it's just cheating.

A ref has a lot of responsibility trying to work out if a side is doing crooked feeds, not straight lineouts, slowing the ball down illegally, obstructing the opposition and many more.

Every rugby side looks to cheat. If you get away with it then no one is the wiser.

You don't see teams throwing forward passes which result in a try and say to the ref - by the way that was forward.

I think many fans are guilty including myself have been guilty of blaming the ref for defeats.

Being a ref is a tough job. At least Joubert is an experienced ref. I've seen far too many games ruined by inexperienced refs.

It's a tough one - the inexperienced refs are generally worse but we need them to gain experience to one day hopefully be better. I have been critical of a few of the novices.

At least with a young ref like Luke Pearce he seems to have improved since one of the worst reffing displays I have seen at club level. He's in my book gone from one of the worst refs in the league to one of the best. Him and Barnes are the best in my opinion currently and I hope he'll make the step up to international level.

At international level my favourite refs are Glen Jackson,Wayne Barnes and Nigel Owens. Jackson is still a work in progress but he's not been doing reffing for long. I've always been a big fan of Barnes and Owens.

Can't have either Barnes or Owens for this game and Jackson is too inexperienced though.

The "Dark Arts" as they so call them need stamping out as IMHO they are killing the game as a spectator sport, several refs have threatened to send of both front rows in the entirety but we have yet to see one actually do it, maybe this is what's needed to finally stamp out what has become a competition of who can cheat best!

That arrogant swine Jones just can't resist running off his big fat gob. Can't wait for Evans and Lee to give England's scrum a fine tuning.

You can see the point of the free kick vs penalty argument. The problem is that there is more of an incentive to get a penalty (and then either points or field position) than to get good quality ball out the back of the scrum. You want to 'incentivise' that instead

Maybe we also have to restrict what the defending scrum half can get up to aswell.

mikey_dragon wrote:That arrogant swine Jones just can't resist running off his big fat gob. Can't wait for Evans and Lee to give England's scrum a fine tuning.

There there dear, maybe you should take a lie down

Everyone has bad days, players, coaches and referees. What I dislike about Joubert and other refs like Clancy for example, is their lack of empathy. That can be a big downer for the supporters.

Who can forget the 2013 penalty fest where there were 28 penalties awarded in one match between Scotland and Wales.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/21692234

BamBam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:That arrogant swine Jones just can't resist running off his big fat gob. Can't wait for Evans and Lee to give England's scrum a fine tuning.

There there dear, maybe you should take a lie down

Yeah I did. I feel a lot better now. But just for a moment imagine if Gatland said that, you and many others would be baying for blood.

mikey_dragon wrote:

BamBam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:That arrogant swine Jones just can't resist running off his big fat gob. Can't wait for Evans and Lee to give England's scrum a fine tuning.

There there dear, maybe you should take a lie down

Yeah I did. I feel a lot better now. But just for a moment imagine if Gatland said that, you and many others would be baying for blood.

Not any more hes done that too many times.

Wales do default to cheat mode when its scrum time.

mikey_dragon wrote:

BamBam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:That arrogant swine Jones just can't resist running off his big fat gob. Can't wait for Evans and Lee to give England's scrum a fine tuning.

There there dear, maybe you should take a lie down

Yeah I did. I feel a lot better now. But just for a moment imagine if Gatland said that, you and many others would be baying for blood.

Yeah, imagine if a Welsh coach had talked about an English player's scrummaging

Something like this maybe

“He (Marler) definitely needs to scrummage legally otherwise we will be pointing the finger,” said Wales forwards coach Robin McBryde. “He got found out against Australia. There was a big focus on the loose heads’ angles going into the World Cup and that was highlighted to us with regards to Gethin (Jenkins) and Paul (James) and it’s something we focused on a lot.

"So it was very disappointing, especially in that England game, where we fell on the wrong side of decisions given against us and we felt the problem lay elsewhere. The feedback we had have after that game was positive as regards to what we were trying to do and we felt we should have had a couple more penalties in that game.”

As it happens, I couldn't give a monkeys

I guess he wasn't the first to point out something that blatant: https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/rugby/-england-are-scrum-cheats-former-wallabies-coach-ignites-war-of-words-before-crunch-rwc-clash-q13340

If there was a French ref lined up for this fixture on Saturday then you could probably still get away with that. Also it isn't often I agree with that muppet McBryde, but I happen to agree with this 100%. I also said something similar about the 2014 Six Nations game.

"So it was very disappointing, especially in that England game, where we fell on the wrong side of decisions given against us and we felt the problem lay elsewhere. The feedback we had have after that game was positive as regards to what we were trying to do and we felt we should have had a couple more penalties in that game.”

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah nice one. Think LT missed you out of the wum thread.

To be fair, it was pretty obvious that he was on a wind up and enjoying your frothiness. You know that saying about not feeding the trolls...

BamBam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:That arrogant swine Jones just can't resist running off his big fat gob. Can't wait for Evans and Lee to give England's scrum a fine tuning.

There there dear, maybe you should take a lie down

You see, this is what happens when their carers leave them unattended for a few minutes and forget to put on the parental lock on the computer.

Before the Aussies went onto cheat in the scrum. Ho hum, happens every game to some extent. Sometimes the ref sees it sometimes they don't. The help given by the linesman seems more variable than the guy in the middle, as they're all refs at the top level maybe they don't want to be seen as overstepping?

Hoonercat wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah nice one. Think LT missed you out of the wum thread.

To be fair, it was pretty obvious that he was on a wind up and enjoying your frothiness. You know that saying about not feeding the trolls...

Mostly like to assume that people are genuine.

Hoonercat wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah nice one. Think LT missed you out of the wum thread.

To be fair, it was pretty obvious that he was on a wind up and enjoying your frothiness. You know that saying about not feeding the trolls...

No, not a wind up, just people misreading/misunderstanding what was said as they have never played/coached a game of rugby.

6 nations always pulls them out year after year.

Once you admit you have no interest in actual debate it loses it's impact.

mikey_dragon wrote:

BamBam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:That arrogant swine Jones just can't resist running off his big fat gob. Can't wait for Evans and Lee to give England's scrum a fine tuning.

There there dear, maybe you should take a lie down

Yeah I did. I feel a lot better now. But just for a moment imagine if Gatland said that, you and many others would be baying for blood.

I wouldn't give a monkeys, some of us don't feel the need to be offended on behalf of others. Maybe he should have taken the cowardly option and got one of his subordinates to do it for him

TightHEAD wrote:

Hoonercat wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah nice one. Think LT missed you out of the wum thread.

To be fair, it was pretty obvious that he was on a wind up and enjoying your frothiness. You know that saying about not feeding the trolls...

No, not a wind up, just people misreading/misunderstanding what was said as they have never played/coached a game of rugby.

6 nations always pulls them out year after year.

My bad, I must have misread this as well, oh well.

TightHEAD wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Finally. You could have just said that straight away.

and miss out on all the fun that followed!

Not my fault certain people (with an agenda against my good name) are quick to judge, make assumptions and second guess what was said.

I find that rather amusing,  But maybe we should just stick to rugby talk rather than attacking a poster because we don't like them.

LORD knows why some people do that?

Reminds me of when Hersh/Harsh used to have people nibbling. You pair would make a good team Tighthead.

I hope Dan Lydiate’s chop tackle technique was raised when the England coaches had their meeting with the Ref.

I hate to see a player injured because he threw his body at their lower legs without using his arms.

Forget the chop tackle, the ref should watch for Warburton & AWJ lifting a player out of the ruck from the side and ending up on the English side of the ruck between the English SH & the ball. Irritates the hell out of me and illegal.

Recwatcher16 wrote:Forget the chop tackle, the ref should watch for Warburton & AWJ  lifting a player out of the ruck from the side and ending up on the English side of the ruck between the English SH & the ball. Irritates the hell out of me and illegal.

More, more please - I love the little victim speak - Poor little fellas against those big bad boys in red. Hope you're watching Mr Joubert Oh and Mike didn't mean that against Ireland, in fact I think that dirty Irish 9 was headbutting Mike's foot, I saw him limping away - He asked for the TMO but the ref ignored it, hell of a bruise on Mikes instep afterwards, could hardly stand up

Nothing victim about it - just the supposed breakdown prowess of Wales is an illusion. Faletau is a fantastic player and makes the other two look better than they are.
England back five in the pack are all in essence back rowers and the Jones plan appears to be just smash them off the breakdown - providing they come through the gate..... we shall see which tactic works.

Recwatcher16 wrote:Nothing victim about it -just the supposed breakdown prowess of Wales is an illusion. Faletau is a fantastic player and makes the other two look better than they are.
England back five in the pack are all in essence back rowers and the Jones plan appears to be just smash them off the breakdown - providing they come through the gate..... we shall see which tactic works.

Could be worse, we could have been stuck with Robshaw and Haskell......

TightHEAD wrote:I hope Dan Lydiate’s chop tackle technique was raised when the England coaches had their meeting with the Ref.

I hate to see a player injured because he threw his body at their lower legs without using his arms.

I hope Mike Brown's face kicking technique was raised when the Wales coaches had their meeting with the Ref.

I'd hate to see a player injured because Mike kicked them repeatedly in the face...  etc...  etc...  blah... blah... blah...  

Haskell chop tackle to the chin is far more dangerous

True Raven wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Nothing victim about it -just the supposed breakdown prowess of Wales is an illusion. Faletau is a fantastic player and makes the other two look better than they are.
England back five in the pack are all in essence back rowers and the Jones plan appears to be just smash them off the breakdown - providing they come through the gate..... we shall see which tactic works.

Could be worse, we could have been stuck with Robshaw and Haskell......

If Jones takes this tactic to its logical conclusion England will end up with a back row of Ewers, Vunipola and Hughes.....

GavCanDance wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I hope Dan Lydiate’s chop tackle technique was raised when the England coaches had their meeting with the Ref.

I hate to see a player injured because he threw his body at their lower legs without using his arms.

I hope Mike Brown's face kicking technique was raised when the Wales coaches had their meeting with the Ref.

I'd hate to see a player injured because Mike kicked them repeatedly in the face...  etc...  etc...  blah... blah... blah...  

Brown did nothing wrong, no action from the Ref or TMO and no citing, Lydiate gives away penalties for his chop tackle every game, so dangerous and unnecessary.

Recwatcher16 wrote:

True Raven wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Nothing victim about it -just the supposed breakdown prowess of Wales is an illusion. Faletau is a fantastic player and makes the other two look better than they are.
England back five in the pack are all in essence back rowers and the Jones plan appears to be just smash them off the breakdown - providing they come through the gate..... we shall see which tactic works.

Could be worse, we could have been stuck with Robshaw and Haskell......

If Jones takes this tactic to its logical conclusion England will end up with a back row of Ewers, Vunipola and Hughes.....

With that backrow they wouldn't have to do anything. As long as they stand close together the ball will be drawn to them through the gravitational pull.

TightHEAD wrote:

GavCanDance wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I hope Dan Lydiate’s chop tackle technique was raised when the England coaches had their meeting with the Ref.

I hate to see a player injured because he threw his body at their lower legs without using his arms.

I hope Mike Brown's face kicking technique was raised when the Wales coaches had their meeting with the Ref.

I'd hate to see a player injured because Mike kicked them repeatedly in the face...  etc...  etc...  blah... blah... blah...  

Brown did nothing wrong, no action from the Ref or TMO and no citing, Lydiate gives away penalties for his chop tackle every game, so dangerous and unnecessary.

Jimpy wrote:

BamBam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:That arrogant swine Jones just can't resist running off his big fat gob. Can't wait for Evans and Lee to give England's scrum a fine tuning.

There there dear, maybe you should take a lie down

You see, this is what happens when their carers leave them unattended for a few minutes and forget to put on the parental lock on the computer.

That's pretty offensive to people who need care. Can you not conflate someone looking to wind people up on the internet with people who are disabled, implying there is something inherently idiotic about them, please?

Guys, I don't see what's SO dangerous about no arm chop tackle. It's against the rules- fair enough but surely that's just off the back of the rule to stop the no arm body check- which is clearly dangerous. I do support wales- but not just saying cos it's lydiate, genuine question

mikey_dragon wrote:That arrogant swine Jones just can't resist running off his big fat gob. Can't wait for Evans and Lee to give England's scrum a fine tuning.

Its a good thing that Gatland never lowers himself to that level isn't it

kingjohn7 wrote:Guys, I don't see what's SO dangerous about no arm chop tackle. It's against the rules- fair enough but surely that's just off the back of the rule to stop the no arm body check- which is clearly dangerous. I do support wales- but not just saying cos it's lydiate, genuine question

I think that it can be dangerous. Tackling requires technique but chop tackling seems (to me) all about throwing your body at an opponent's legs, no technique required.

miaow wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

BamBam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:That arrogant swine Jones just can't resist running off his big fat gob. Can't wait for Evans and Lee to give England's scrum a fine tuning.

There there dear, maybe you should take a lie down

You see, this is what happens when their carers leave them unattended for a few minutes and forget to put on the parental lock on the computer.

That's pretty offensive to people who need care. Can you not conflate someone looking to wind people up on the internet with people who are disabled, implying there is something inherently idiotic about them, please?

Errm, I think bambam implied he was a child not disabled.

nathan wrote:

miaow wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

BamBam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:That arrogant swine Jones just can't resist running off his big fat gob. Can't wait for Evans and Lee to give England's scrum a fine tuning.

There there dear, maybe you should take a lie down

You see, this is what happens when their carers leave them unattended for a few minutes and forget to put on the parental lock on the computer.

That's pretty offensive to people who need care. Can you not conflate someone looking to wind people up on the internet with people who are disabled, implying there is something inherently idiotic about them, please?

Errm, I think bambam implied he was a child not disabled.

Certainly not how I interpreted it. The key word being carer, rather than guardian, and intimating he needs 24 hour care which has lapsed for a few minutes. Even at its best, it's adding nothing to the discussion on rugby, and at its worst, it's a comment that is flippant and dismissive of people who require a carer. Not quite sure why you're jumping to his defence. Let's talk about rugby, and not resort petty name-calling and one-upmanship ("but what did you really mean when you said take him out" etc).

eirebilly wrote:

kingjohn7 wrote:Guys, I don't see what's SO dangerous about no arm chop tackle. It's against the rules- fair enough but surely that's just off the back of the rule to stop the no arm body check- which is clearly dangerous. I do support wales- but not just saying cos it's lydiate, genuine question

I think that it can be dangerous. Tackling requires technique but chop tackling seems (to me) all about throwing your body at an opponent's legs, no technique required.

Also if you allow the no arms chop tackle, then it's only a matter of time before it's aimed a knees as opposed to ankles, and people argue well it's only a chop tackle.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

kingjohn7 wrote:Guys, I don't see what's SO dangerous about no arm chop tackle. It's against the rules- fair enough but surely that's just off the back of the rule to stop the no arm body check- which is clearly dangerous. I do support wales- but not just saying cos it's lydiate, genuine question

I think that it can be dangerous. Tackling requires technique but chop tackling seems (to me) all about throwing your body at an opponent's legs, no technique required.

Also if you allow the no arms chop tackle, then it's only a matter of time before it's aimed a knees as opposed to ankles, and people argue well it's only a chop tackle.

Excellent point Scareletspiderman. It would certainly lead to that sort of situation.

For the record, I am not having a dig at Lydiate as I honestly do not believe that he intends to hurt opposition players with his tackles.

eirebilly wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:That arrogant swine Jones just can't resist running off his big fat gob. Can't wait for Evans and Lee to give England's scrum a fine tuning.

Its a good thing that Gatland never lowers himself to that level isn't it

Foreigners............

Is this not a case of 'chop tackles' and...well, chop tackles? The legal version simply being wrapping a player around the lower legs, below the point the attacker can drop the shoulder to? It's how I used to tackle when I played (that's right, beat you to it Danny), and by definition, it's better to not go as 'hard' into these sort of tackles as it is when hitting waist upwards. You need more control as you tend to be crouched quite low, therefore you're easier to step if, and if you go charging in, it can be just as bad as going too high on a big player, and getting bumped off.

The second, more modern version, is the kind of trench warfare no arms tackle we've started to see whenever an attacking team gets into the opposition's 22, and goes through a series of pick and goes. With the gainline being utterly key, the defence stops the marginal gains that would be made by the ball carrier's momentum by stopping the carry dead in its tracks. The way players seem to do this, sadly, is to sort of ball up/stick their head or even back down around the leg area of where the carrier is going to run. It's not a tackle, and it's rightly started to be penalised. Also, not having a go at the front row...but...it almost always seems to be front row players who do it (their shortness and width does make them a good breezeblock in all fairness).

I think what Lydiate is getting penalised for is almost a third kind of tackle. Admittedly, there have been a few times he's got it wrong. However, it's not malicious per se, it's more about timing, and one of my biggest annoyances with the modern gainline play is when an attacking player is pushed into the tackle by their teammate/supporting forward stood behind them, in an aim to get momentum with which to secure the ruck easily. It's so dangerous for both players, and I can't wait until it's made illegal. Not only is it dangerous for the ball carrier, as suddenly you're shunted in the back and you're out of control, but it also disrupts the timing of the tackler. Suddenly, having lined up the tackle, you're faced with someone who speeds up right before the contact; there's no way the defender can anticipate or change the speed with which they bring their arms out. It also makes heads to knees, or unsafe collisions in general, far more likely. I'd like to see it picked up on, or players to just stop pushing their teammates in this way.

There's also the case of jumping over the low tackle slightly, as Tom Wood did in the RWC. It's very marginal, but when you're lined up, it's much safer to take the chop tackle, than it is to try and evade it by leaning your body weight over the tackler; you're likely to be flipped over, as Wood was.

miaow wrote:

nathan wrote:

miaow wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

BamBam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:That arrogant swine Jones just can't resist running off his big fat gob. Can't wait for Evans and Lee to give England's scrum a fine tuning.

There there dear, maybe you should take a lie down

You see, this is what happens when their carers leave them unattended for a few minutes and forget to put on the parental lock on the computer.

That's pretty offensive to people who need care. Can you not conflate someone looking to wind people up on the internet with people who are disabled, implying there is something inherently idiotic about them, please?

Errm, I think bambam implied he was a child not disabled.

Certainly not how I interpreted it. The key word being carer, rather than guardian, and intimating he needs 24 hour care which has lapsed for a few minutes. Even at its best, it's adding nothing to the discussion on rugby, and at its worst, it's a comment that is flippant and dismissive of people who require a carer. Not quite sure why you're jumping to his defence. Let's talk about rugby, and not resort petty name-calling and one-upmanship ("but what did you really mean when you said take him out" etc).

Jumping to his defence because I interpreted it differently to you? Yeah your right, let's talk about rugby

Interesting point Scarlet. I have no issue with it being illegal just felt the big song and dance around it seemed OTT. Sorry hard to use forum at Mo on mobile. Enjoy game tomorrow guys, hope both teams have a cracker

Interesting point Scarlet. I have no issue with it being illegal just felt the big song and dance around it seemed OTT. Sorry hard to use forum at Mo on mobile. Enjoy game tomorrow guys, hope both teams have a cracker

Deleted, stupid post.

GeordieFalcon wrote:It's not often I get so annoyed about games but the sh1!e I've read from the Welsh on other forums today has been pure arrogance.  

England may aswell not bother turning up as it's already over apparently

I hope we smash Wales in to next century!!!!

So I guess now you can I magine what it's been like listening to a good number of England fans for a decade since you won the RWC. Thank god you are all getting back to the reality of what English rugby fans can come to expect

I know what you mean Geordie. I thought some of the Welsh reaction to Wales (and subsequently Australia) beating England was OTT during the World Cup, so I enjoyed them getting beat by South Africa and am over that now.

Can't contemplate defeat tomorrow though because I can't stand the thought of finishing second again.

On the low chop, I think there are two types. The low chop with the arms which is absolutely fine, it's a skill to master and is bloody effective at stopping people. But there's also the tackle which is basically just falling at someone's feet and hoping they trip over you. That requires no skill and is dangerous because it's uncontrolled. That needs to come out of the game.

Arms in a tackle is all about maintaining control, same when you lift a player. Lose control and you're in trouble.