Indian Wells

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Shame for Kyle Edmund. He was playing well in the first set.

Delpo beat Smyczeck 6-4, 6-0.

Fritz lost to Tiafoe.

Well.... not sure it sounds like Rafa's comeback, more like the lad threw it away and (perhaps?) lost heart.

bogbrush wrote:Well.... not sure it sounds like Rafa's comeback, more like the lad threw it away and (perhaps?) lost heart.

Well it's cliche day today so I'll just say a win's a win and they all count. Really keen to see Rafa come storming back and I never thought I would write that. Hope Zverev doesn't dwell too much on his miss.

Sure, the wins the win.

All I'm querying is whether it's accurate to put it down to a great comeback capability, because it sounds like he was one easy volley away from an entirely different headline and he wasn't material in changing the outcome of that. Not having a go at him or anything.

sirfredperry wrote:Just seen that missed volley by Zverev. Oh dear. Would have been a tremendous win for him. Rarely seen Rafa looking so happy and relaxed at the end. Wonder if that comeback will be a turning point for him.
  Stan the Man also missed a sitter - in fact even easier than the Zverev shot - which would have given him MP v Goffin. To add to comments on the Rafa/Uncle thread, I see that Isner lost to Nishi despite never facing a break point. Shows that big serving alone aint gonna get the job done.

But also shows that even a returner as great as Nishikori can't make a dent on the Isner serve. Am I right in thinking he's been broken something like 3 times all year? Insane stats.

bogbrush wrote:Sure, the wins the win.

All I'm querying is whether it's accurate to put it down to a great comeback capability, because it sounds like he was one easy volley away from an entirely different headline and he wasn't material in changing the outcome of that. Not having a go at him or anything.

Both are fair assessments I would say. From memory, I think Rafa had dug deep to get to 30-30 in that game and had also been a touch unlucky not to break in the previous game. If Zverev had got to 40-0 he probably wouldn't have missed the volley. Rafa got lucky but it was also a great comeback.

Rafa played well generally I thought. Forehand had decent bite compared to the matches on clay.

No one younger than 25 in the quarters.

To be honest people are talking like that volley was a formality but it really wasn't. It was head high, with no pace and before the service line, which is an awkward height and distance plus he had to generate pace to really punch it away, which he didn't do, he was trying to steer it. Also, Rafa was already moving in the direction of the volley and I wager he would have got to the next shot anyway and we all know how good his passing shots are - I think Zverev knew this and it made him choke what wasn't an easy volley. All I'm saying is it wasn't a gimme final shot and loaded with pressure. But actually it did inject Rafa with a new sense of purpose...watch this last match point for quality.



But Zverev is a talent make no mistake. His time will come, and not just against Rafa but all the top guys. He serves above 130+ on most serves, moves well, has a huge BH and good FH, and moves really well for a 6'6 guy. I'd wager he's the best of the 18yr old's out there and a future #1 in my book.

Re: Stan...THAT was an easy miss...but then Goffin should have won in 2 straight sets 63 63 except for some amazing play by Stan (and a wobble). Then he served for it at 5-3 in the 3rd too. I hope this is also a watershed moment for Goffin because he's one of the most naturally talented guys out there (as I always maintained when he was ranked down at #130). He's good to watch due to his variety. But have to say when Stan hits that ball boy does it move...that BH is a sight to behold. Long may that sight last...

lydian wrote: But have to say when Stan hits that ball boy ...

He shouldn't hit ball boys.

Haha - Ban the Stan!

Fair play, I didn't even see it.

(doesn't usually get in the way of my opinions though)

Zverev was schooling Nadal completely in set 3 then at 5-3 match point he misses an easy put away to the net, then Nadal didn't miss anything and played like it was his last match ever.

Hard choke to take for a young player

tbf I just saw the mp too. Zverev shouldn't have needed to hit a volley, but Rafa just lunged at the ball as hard as he could and got a nasty sort of half lob half pass which Zverev made a bad job of. From there, Rafa went crazy

Born Slippy wrote:

sirfredperry wrote:Just seen that missed volley by Zverev. Oh dear. Would have been a tremendous win for him. Rarely seen Rafa looking so happy and relaxed at the end. Wonder if that comeback will be a turning point for him.
  Stan the Man also missed a sitter - in fact even easier than the Zverev shot - which would have given him MP v Goffin. To add to comments on the Rafa/Uncle thread, I see that Isner lost to Nishi despite never facing a break point. Shows that big serving alone aint gonna get the job done.

But also shows that even a returner as great as Nishikori can't make a dent on the Isner serve. Am I right in thinking he's been broken something like 3 times all year? Insane stats.

You know what the means we need to ban technology, speed up balls, and courts so that Isner can go a whole season without losing serve. Because that is real tennis.

lydian wrote:Yep the next gen is coming...Zverev, Tiafoe, Rublev, Fritz...these will be top 10 players and maybe one will be a dominant #1...although a 6'6 guy has NEVER been dominant...or even #1 ranked. Can times change?

Good to see Rafa pull through...Verdasco was hitting huge at some points but Rafa rode the storm well enough. To be fair he should have won in 2 easyish sets before slipping in the 2nd. Generally he's getting better though and this will pump his confidence.

Don't mean to make this a I told you so post, we are all wrong about different posts or predictions we make, but how does this change your thoughts in regards to the health of the game and need for changes in order to foster the growth of youth. I mean the coming of youth to the top is pretty much inevitable. But the idea that all these guys are cookie cutter, dull, fitness monkey, grinder, moonballers, as some said would be the case if we didn't drastically alter the game, has it changed your thinking? In fairness, your comments were never to the extreme one way or the other but I did get a sense of pessimism about the eventual rise of quality and watchable youth, has that pessimism changed?

Well, I predicted a Zverev win but the youngster really did choke. But I feel real good about his future development. I mean Zverev was choking through out the match. He would blast Nadal off the court for a few games and then start throwing in double fault after double fault or netting easy hospital balls from the middle of the court. It is natural, there isn't a person who has played competitive sports who at one time or another hasn't suffered from tightness or nerves that ends up costing them a big match or event. I mean the current world number one forgot they play tennis with a net, in a virtual match point at a slam so this is just the kind of hard candy the kid will have to digest in the high stakes world of elite tennis.

My only fear is that while he moves well for a guy his size that he just doesn't grow so fast that he becomes an Isner body type as opposed to a Del Po, Cilic, Berdy body type. His serve will get much better than what we saw today against Nadal. He will get so much more precise, powerful, and consistent with that shot.

Novak v. Tsonga was exceptional from both men, Tsonga fought all the way but is just that little less consistent at replicating a high level of tennis as Novak is. His second serve that against mere mortals had been so effective this week was completely abused by Djokovic.

Nadal played the best match I have seen him play in quite sometime. The tell tale sign was that against a good returner he was getting a healthy number of free points and was hitting the flatter FH up the line with great effect.

Raonic through.  Even though I find him quite boring, still good to see him doing well after the AO injury.

Too bad he did not finish it in two sets - I will now probably not be able to see all of the Novak vs Rafa as I have dinner plans for the evening

Rafa breaks - 2:0. Nole served back-to-back doubles into the sun.

Nole breaks right back.

This is great stuff! Nadal staying properly competitive and playing very well

Awful match this...quality wise.

Djokovic has barely hit the court. If Nadal was playing half as well as he did against Nishikori he would have won by now.

Mental frailties showing up once again...

The dirtiest player on tour wins again...tennis is dying a slow death...

Jermaine2015 wrote:The dirtiest player on tour wins again...tennis is dying a slow death...

He just lost actually

temporary21 wrote:This is great stuff! Nadal staying properly competitive and playing very well

I missed the beginning but I must have been watching a different match. Has it really gotten to the point for nadal where his fans are excited he can get close to winning one set to a djokovic playing like he's barely there? I hope not for nadals sake.

I had to leave at 5:6 in the first set, but from what I saw:

1. Neither player was playing anywhere near their best

2. Rafa was playing at the higher end of his performance range over the last 15 months, but he was still dumping too many easy balls into the net. As has been the case for a while now, he will have a few pretty good points, but also good many really poor ones.

3. Novak was way off his best, with plenty of cheap unforced errors much unlike him, but he still looked the better of the two - though not by much. It will be interesting to see if today's Novak's level is his 2016 level, or whether he will get back closer to how he played in 2015.

Raonic vs Novak.  If Raonic had not suffered his injury, this was likely going to be the AO final.  Happy to see that Raonic was able to recover the form after the injury.  I am sure he would have been much happier if this was the AO final, but at least he is showing it was not a flash-in-the-pan performance in Australia.

I am not too emotionally invested either way tomorrow, but will probably root for Rao - just for the sake of having a new winner.

Just another match that showed again that Nadal can't maintain the pace needed to pressurise Djokovc - even when he's playing less test excellently.

Physically, he was waning and by the early 2nd set it was done.

Surprised that there is any positivity from Nadal fans after that defeat. He served at 80% first serves against a very below par Novak and still got obliterated. 54% first serve points won is just awful.

Will be heavily supporting Novak tonight. A Raonic win at this level will be a dark moment for tennis.

Won't be any darker than it is now.

legendkillarV2 wrote:Won't be any darker than it is now.

Depressing that anyone could think that when we have players with the all-round skills of Djoko, Murray and Fed at the top of the game.

Born Slippy wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:Won't be any darker than it is now.

Depressing that anyone could think that when we have players with the all-round skills of Djoko, Murray and Fed at the top of the game.

Well yes if that's the only 3 players your interested in watching...

I can't say a Djokovic/Murray encounter will get me glued to the sofa in anticipation.

Born Slippy; when after a few years Djokovic and Murray declines; there's a good possibility we may have Zverev vs Raonic vs Kyrgios as the big battles in Slams.

legendkillarV2 wrote:

Born Slippy wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:Won't be any darker than it is now.

Depressing that anyone could think that when we have players with the all-round skills of Djoko, Murray and Fed at the top of the game.

Well yes if that's the only 3 players your interested in watching...

I can't say a Djokovic/Murray encounter will get me glued to the sofa in anticipation.

I have said it before and I will say it again - it depends on what floats your boat. Personally, for me the Sampras era was as dull as dishwater, Federer trampling everyone was dull until stronger/better players came along so like I say whatever floats your boat. We cannot (apparently) take commentators words for how good players are today so it is up to individuals to decide.

legendkillarV2 wrote:

Born Slippy wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:Won't be any darker than it is now.

Depressing that anyone could think that when we have players with the all-round skills of Djoko, Murray and Fed at the top of the game.

Well yes if that's the only 3 players your interested in watching...

I can't say a Djokovic/Murray encounter will get me glued to the sofa in anticipation.

On the contrary, I'm interesting in watching most players (it's only really Raonic and Del Potro who I find mind-numbing) but I'm able to appreciate how lucky we are presently. It's been a fabulous 15 years or so of tennis. I just see the monotonous serve based style of play which is coming.

BS - While we don't necessarily always want to see too many matches featuring one or two-stroke rallies, we could perhaps do without matches with endless baseline rallies.
It's been said recently on other threads that matches are not won on serving alone, as Isner/Karlovic would be top five if they were. Raonic, to me, has improved his all-round game enormously over recent months. If the courts are supposed to be slower, the balls heavier and the returning better, praps it's a good thing to have big servers around to present a new challenge.

I too find Raonic a great cure for insomnia.. he is robotic and without
charisma.. I think Ill give this final a miss me thinks
If Sampras could do nothing for me I'm sure Milos cant

sirfredperry wrote:BS - While we don't necessarily always want to see too many matches featuring one or two-stroke rallies, we could perhaps do without matches with endless baseline rallies.
  It's been said recently on other threads that matches are not won on serving alone, as Isner/Karlovic would be top five if they were. Raonic, to me, has improved his all-round game enormously over recent months. If the courts are supposed to be slower, the balls heavier and the returning better, praps it's a good thing to have big servers around to present a new challenge.

Indeed. The same people who bemoan the limitations of serving dislike the bemoaning of the limitations of baseline rallying. 

Would love an 80s dimension where players had personality and contrasting styles had success.

IMO IW will be very positive for Rafa. Coulda, woulda, shoulda won that first set and then who knows. Reckon that will be enough to give Rafa more confidence next time. If he can carry on playing as he did in IW then he will have his chances in any tournament. Novak is still the player that is most feared on the other side of the net but I reckon Rafa is hustling up to position himself as second most feared. His recent wins over top ten and dangerous players has been 2nd only to Novak. Or at the very least joint 2nd with Fed

Thiem, Verdasco and Cuevas agree with you

LuvSports! wrote:Thiem, Verdasco and Cuevas agree with you

Nadal beat Verdasco in IW. Do you really believe he won't do the same next time he meets Thiem or Cuevas? Rafa was sick in South America it's funny that he doesn't get the same pass as Novak gets when playing inhibited.

Gold-plated form!

I thought Nadal played really well. Lets remember last couple of times he was completely destroyed by Djokovic. He also played exceptionally against Nishikori. The fact is that Djokovic is just a different level. All the conditions favored Nadal.

This is probably the best hardcourt conditions for Nadal in this matchup. Its a windy court, its a slow-high bouncing court, the air is light and the ball just flies around, Novak had the sun in his face half the time on serve and Rafa had no sun because he is a lefty. In Southern CA if you play in the afternoon the right hander will have the sun in his face on half of his service games, while the lefty won't on either side. Early in the morning that pattern is reversed. But Novak on hardcourt is just that good right now.

I liked what I saw in the last two matches by Nadal. Losing to Djokovic on hardcourt is still pretty expected at this stage in his comeback.

I don't know Raonic is a dull player for me, nothing is less interesting than watching a match where holding serve becomes almost automatic and its filled with rallies of under 3 and 4 shots. That being said Raonic is a pretty well rounded player and has improved his backhand and in particular his return. For Raonic if he can go from being a bad returner to just being an average or mediocre returner he will win slams. If he can get to lets say 25 percent break percentage which is average/above average returning he will be one of the handful of best players. But its very tough for him as a guy his size to do that. Berdych and JMDP were able to manage it but they are more athletic on their feet than Milos.

For the match, I think Novak wins. If Raonic is smart he will hit a lot of body serves. This serve is both a higher percentage serve than going for an ace and it troubles Novak more than any other serve. This way he can keep his 1st serve percentage high and feed Novak a lot of serves that make him uncomfortable.

hawkeye wrote:IMO IW will be very positive for Rafa. Coulda, woulda, shoulda won that first set and then who knows. Reckon that will be enough to give Rafa more confidence next time. If he can carry on playing as he did in IW then he will have his chances in any tournament. Novak is still the player that is most feared on the other side of the net but I reckon Rafa is hustling up to position himself as second most feared. His recent wins over top ten and dangerous players has been 2nd only to Novak. Or at the very least joint 2nd with Fed

Rafa has beaten one player in the top 30 this year and, to be honest, that win had a lot to do with how poor Kei played. There were some promising signs this week but ultimately he looked as dangerous as a kitten against Novak. What a bizarre comment.

sirfredperry wrote:BS - While we don't necessarily always want to see too many matches featuring one or two-stroke rallies, we could perhaps do without matches with endless baseline rallies.
  It's been said recently on other threads that matches are not won on serving alone, as Isner/Karlovic would be top five if they were. Raonic, to me, has improved his all-round game enormously over recent months. If the courts are supposed to be slower, the balls heavier and the returning better, praps it's a good thing to have big servers around to present a new challenge.

Except there is zero evidence that we are getting matches with endless baseline rallies. I think IMBL posted stats which showed how short the majority of rallies continue to be and I've previously posted stats showing how it is becoming ever harder to break serve. The only style of player currently breaking through are huge guys with big serves and relatively poor return games. Its worrying for the future.

Born Slippy wrote:

hawkeye wrote:IMO IW will be very positive for Rafa. Coulda, woulda, shoulda won that first set and then who knows. Reckon that will be enough to give Rafa more confidence next time. If he can carry on playing as he did in IW then he will have his chances in any tournament. Novak is still the player that is most feared on the other side of the net but I reckon Rafa is hustling up to position himself as second most feared. His recent wins over top ten and dangerous players has been 2nd only to Novak. Or at the very least joint 2nd with Fed

Rafa has beaten one player in the top 30 this year and, to be honest, that win had a lot to do with how poor Kei played. There were some promising signs this week but ultimately he looked as dangerous as a kitten against Novak. What a bizarre comment.

I would suggest Kei has been playing poor all year then seeing as Rafa is ahead of him in the rankings... so if Rafa is a kitten then what is Kei. ?? Rafa was in the semi final where were the others ?? do you not ask why he is managing to stay at No.5. doesn't say much for the rest does it.???

Milos broken in the very first game. This will be difficult.

HE is describing him as the de facto number 2. I would say he is playing to his ranking - a mid top 10 player. Whilst he is improving, I was taking issue with the comment that "his recent wins over top 10 and dangerous players is second only to Novak.".

Whatever but I think your comment came over as a little harsh.
I would ask who, apart from Novak, would you consider is playing to his ranking at the moment.
Frankly from what I see at the  nobody is playing consistently well.. tennis is in the doldrums .