Indian Wells

First topic message reminder :

Shame for Kyle Edmund. He was playing well in the first set.

Delpo beat Smyczeck 6-4, 6-0.

Fritz lost to Tiafoe.

bogbrush wrote:Seriously? Scraping his shoes?

Sometimes I think tennis needs to man up. I'm trying to imagine a Rugby player being put off because an opponent scraped his shoes; on his face maybe, but >78 feet away?

I have it on good authority that Delbonis wears steel capped shoes with "segs" nailed to the soles. Apparently he tap dances in them too



Blakey's - The scraping pros choice.

Jahu wrote:Andy caught changing nappies.

No2 at this level is unacceptable.

True, but every No.2 has the occasional shocker. It's only because of the consistency of the likes of the usual suspects, that we criticise when they lose. Stan often doesn't turn up for these events as shown by his single Masters title

I wish Andy would be a bit smarter though, none of us fans gave us him a prayer after a tough Davis Cup at his least favourite Masters. He should have been smart and withdrawn. In fact his early exit is good news. Vital he saves his energy for a very tough schedule in the next 6 months

Family and friends will be at this favourite Masters in Miami, so I expect to see a different versions there

bogbrush wrote:Seriously? Scraping his shoes?

Sometimes I think tennis needs to man up. I'm trying to imagine a Rugby player being put off because an opponent scraped his shoes; on his face maybe, but >78 feet away?

Wasn't it Murray that was put off by an insect in one of his matches when serving? Wimbledon I think. 

I am with you. If the man can play DC with all that racket, surely he can retain composure with a squeak. That goes for any player.

Indian Wells is there for the taking.

Djokovic isn't looking great - Kukushkin took him to five in Davis Cup and he dropped a set to Fratangelo.

Federer not playing.

Now Murray is out.

Rafa hasn't looked great for a while now and didn't against Muller. But possibly a chance for him?

Stan?

Raonic?

Thiem?

bogbrush wrote:Seriously? Scraping his shoes?

Sometimes I think tennis needs to man up. I'm trying to imagine a Rugby player being put off because an opponent scraped his shoes; on his face maybe, but >78 feet away?

I'm not sure I get the comparison. Tennis is played in silence - rugby isn't. This is more the equivalent of an opponent deliberately coughing as a player is about to pot in snooker. Obviously, it isn't a big issue and Murray hit a decent enough second serve but I'd like to see that sort of cheating stamped down on.

Silence? I think you're clutching a little there BS, even the UK junior tennis events I attend are noisy affairs and you should see what the opponents get up to there! Murray should be used to all this after 20 years of playing tournaments...I just think he let the occasion get to him. Of course the other factor is that IW has just about the roughest surface on tour (Larry makes sure the paint has Blackpool beach amounts of sand in it)...so any foot movement is going to be noisy.

Indeed. I do recall was it Trump vs O'Sullivan when Trump was about to pot a black and a member of the crowd farted! He had the sense of mind to recompose himself and make the shot. I know in tennis Murray would be mindful of the time between points, but he should be able to re-focus himself.

Sure Lydian, I'm well aware of how the juniors act. I don't see the fact that gamesmanship happens at lower levels is justification though for allowing it to happen when there is an umpire present. The pro game should be setting an example. If Delbonis had lost the point for hindrance he wouldn't do it in future.

LK's example is also different as it does not involve your opponent deliberately seeking to put you off. As I said, not a big issue, but it leaves a bad taste.

Players do it from time to time. Remember Rosol/Nadal Wimbledon when Nadal wasn't happy with Rosol's actions when serving.

Born Slippy wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Seriously? Scraping his shoes?

Sometimes I think tennis needs to man up. I'm trying to imagine a Rugby player being put off because an opponent scraped his shoes; on his face maybe, but >78 feet away?

I'm not sure I get the comparison. Tennis is played in silence - rugby isn't. This is more the equivalent of an opponent deliberately coughing as a player is about to pot in snooker. Obviously, it isn't a big issue and Murray hit a decent enough second serve but I'd like to see that sort of cheating stamped down on.

Let's imagine for a moment that it truly is played in silence (no planes flying overhead, no birds calling, nobody in the crowd making a late rally call or passing wind strenuously - just complete, total, silence).

And let's imagine the opponent, 80 foot away, deliberately squeaks his shoe as you throw the ball up to serve.


So..... what?

legendkillarV2 wrote:Indeed. I do recall was it Trump vs O'Sullivan when Trump was about to pot a black and a member of the crowd farted! He had the sense of mind to recompose himself and make the shot. I know in tennis Murray would be mindful of the time between points, but he should be able to re-focus himself.

That had the added effect of probably making him laugh.

I still await the day when a player, stretching for a difficult shot, finds unexpected release due to posture. It will bring the house down.

bogbrush wrote:

Born Slippy wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Seriously? Scraping his shoes?

Sometimes I think tennis needs to man up. I'm trying to imagine a Rugby player being put off because an opponent scraped his shoes; on his face maybe, but >78 feet away?

I'm not sure I get the comparison. Tennis is played in silence - rugby isn't. This is more the equivalent of an opponent deliberately coughing as a player is about to pot in snooker. Obviously, it isn't a big issue and Murray hit a decent enough second serve but I'd like to see that sort of cheating stamped down on.

Let's imagine for a moment that it truly is played in silence (no planes flying overhead, no birds calling, nobody in the crowd making a late rally call or passing wind strenuously - just complete, total, silence).

And let's imagine the opponent, 80 foot away, deliberately squeaks his shoe as you throw the ball up to serve.


So..... what?

I suspect most tennis players would tell you that is distracting. I would have taken it a lot less calmly than Murray did if someone did that against me. Consider it the other way round - if its not designed to gain an unfair advantage, why is DB doing it? If that small bit of cheating enables him to win a match, how is that significantly different to any of the other ways of gaining an unfair advantage?

Well anyone so flakey to be put off by a squeaky shoe 30 yards away has no place in professional sport. Christ, sportsmen engage in endless gamesmanship and naughty tricks to unsettle each other and part of making it is to have the mental strength to see it off - and in any case what kind of hopeless concentration do you have to have to be put off by this?

I'd regard it as a sign the guy is on the ragged edge and smile as I stuck the next winner past him. I'd probably throw in a squeaky foot turn just after winning it too, to rub it in.

It's complete nonsense.

Yep, can you imagine someone like Boris Becker being put off by a foot squeak?
This is elite sport, and these guys want to win so much they should be focused on themselves not the opponent.
Regarding "manners" in sport have you for example seen professional cycling...they elbow each other, spit on each other, rub tyres together, shout, cut/block off, push, ram, etc etc...its dog eat dog.
Elite professional tennis is nowhere near as bad as that but neither can we expect them to play in museum conditions and not try to gain an edge..it happens in EVERY sport. Tennis is probably amongst the most mild mannered to be honest.

bogbrush wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:Indeed. I do recall was it Trump vs O'Sullivan when Trump was about to pot a black and a member of the crowd farted! He had the sense of mind to recompose himself and make the shot. I know in tennis Murray would be mindful of the time between points, but he should be able to re-focus himself.

That had the added effect of probably making him laugh.

I still await the day when a player, stretching for a difficult shot, finds unexpected release due to posture. It will bring the house down.

When I was a wee lad (going back now) I was playing in a 5-aside school tournament. A lad I was marking did a Cruyff turn on me and I kid you not as he did it, he farted and I just burst into tears of laughter. The little sod went and scored, but I laughed for ages!

Lol...that's what you call laughing in the fa(r)ce of adversity!

My teacher was fuming that I let him go lol. I have to say in sport that was the only distraction (aside of injuries etc) that threw me in a competitive contest.

In defense of BS I think Del Bonis was pushing the envelope with his challenges. He would hit a shot wait to see if the return was in then he would call the challenge. It was very borderline if not an outright violation, and he kept making late challenges and it put Murray off. Bernardes I think should have told Del Bonis to speed it up. One call in particular that was changed late in that match led directly to a Murray break as Del Bonis got a break point and peed Murray off at the same time. Next point Murray makes a bad error and loses his serve.

But yeah, to a certain extent players have to be deal with the distraction of the event.

Well done Konta, under done and out Murray.

Squeaky shoes, movement when a player is serving, grunting loudly or weirdly, hitting the ball at the opponent - gamesmanship and gameswomanship.

But many players challenge HE late socal...doesn't make it right but I bet even Murray has done it...
Yep NS...but the players have been doing that since they started pro tennis matches.

Zverev giving Simon a bit of a hiding here.

Could be an interesting match if Nadal beats Verdasco. Rafas had some trouble with teenagers recently and if he were to lose to Zverev I'd have to resurrect that old post I did about unruly kids beating up elderly Spanish gents.

Lets hope Kohli can send home Djoko, and Verdasco beats Nadal.

We need a new winner here.

Well tbh, this second set has been atrocious by both guys.

Rafa actually looks alright... except his bh... right now I think he has the worst bh of the top 50.

Verdasco 4:2 up on TB.

Take it.

What a TB, 9:9

Nadal takes it. What a choke from this serial mega choker Verdasco, 4-5 set points he had.

Well done Rafa. For the first time in ages, he actually wins a tight set and gets through getting tight and nervous. Saved 5 set points, in what was admittedly one of the worst sets ive seen but did the right things finally.

Boy we need you back

No we don't need him back. He will never beat Djoko anymore.

We need Djoko OUT, not Nadal or Fed back.

And we need like Thiem types IN.

Well tennis as a whole needs its big draws to be playing well. All the big 4 have either not turned up or been fair abject, Nishi looks tired too.
If you only care about someone beating Novak, then you may be seriously disappointed,

Its not just Novak, I want a new top 4, badly as it may seem to find their replacements, kind of tired of the old top 4.

Anyway with Andy's play yesterday, he might as well go and make some more babies, as he ain't firing on the tennis court for now.

So we have a Top 1, a accidental No2, senior No3, and Nadal swimming in top 10.

Thiem kicking butt, Sock served for the second set now on TB.

Konta has yet to beat Pliskova. Played four times lost four times:
2016 Indian Wells Masters R16 Hard: 7-6(2) 3-6 6-3
2015 Birmingham R32 Grass: 3-6 6-3 6-4
2013 75k Nottingham SF Grass: 3-6 7-5 6-3
2011 25k Prerov, Clay: 6-2 7-6(3)
Pliskova is 10 months younger than Konta.

Novak not looking his best so far this tournament and since the eye infection.

Zverev is the real deal, I look for him to handle Nadal's spin easily with his six six frame and fluid backhand. I am taking the teenager in the upset.

Sock is a fine young talent but he misses so many serves and makes so many double faults in key situations, should have won the second set but his serve again let him down late in the second set.

Jahu wrote:Its not just Novak, I want a new top 4, badly as it may seem to find their replacements, kind of tired of the old top 4.

Anyway with Andy's play yesterday, he might as well go and make some more babies, as he ain't firing on the tennis court for now.

So we have a Top 1, a accidental No2, senior No3, and Nadal swimming in top 10.

True, the game is moribund. There's a few signs of life up and coming and hopefully we'll see players like Ferrer, Berdych put down soon enough.

Not sure where earlier-year stats for this are to be found but teenagers seem to have won quite a few matches so far in 2016. Could be the best year in this respect since Rafa (around 2005) and Andy (2007) were chalking up victories as teens a while back.

Yep the next gen is coming...Zverev, Tiafoe, Rublev, Fritz...these will be top 10 players and maybe one will be a dominant #1...although a 6'6 guy has NEVER been dominant...or even #1 ranked. Can times change?

Good to see Rafa pull through...Verdasco was hitting huge at some points but Rafa rode the storm well enough. To be fair he should have won in 2 easyish sets before slipping in the 2nd. Generally he's getting better though and this will pump his confidence.

But Verdasco had lots of UE's on TB, just balls way off, he should of closed that TB easy and get it to 3 sets, and he seemed much more fresh than Rafa and was punching much harder.

Lets hope the new new generation will kick it now as the old new generation (Dimi, Dolgo etc) proved quite embarrassing.

lydian wrote:Yep the next gen is coming...Zverev, Tiafoe, Rublev, Fritz...these will be top 10 players and maybe one will be a dominant #1...although a 6'6 guy has NEVER been dominant...or even #1 ranked. Can times change?

Good to see Rafa pull through...Verdasco was hitting huge at some points but Rafa rode the storm well enough. To be fair he should have won in 2 easyish sets before slipping in the 2nd. Generally he's getting better though and this will pump his confidence.

I am hoping those listed will start to break through and become a regular feature in the top 50 in the next 12 months.

Thiem looks certain to make the top 10 this. Hope he can start to push the higher echelon and signify change to come.

bogbrush wrote:

Jahu wrote:Its not just Novak, I want a new top 4, badly as it may seem to find their replacements, kind of tired of the old top 4.

Anyway with Andy's play yesterday, he might as well go and make some more babies, as he ain't firing on the tennis court for now.

So we have a Top 1, a accidental No2, senior No3, and Nadal swimming in top 10.

True, the game is moribund. There's a few signs of life up and coming and hopefully we'll see players like Ferrer, Berdych put down soon enough.

I am predicting that this is the year Ferrer and, possibly, Berdych slip out of the top ten. I think London may have some fresh faces in November.

bogbrush wrote:Well anyone so flakey to be put off by a squeaky shoe 30 yards away has no place in professional sport. Christ, sportsmen engage in endless gamesmanship and naughty tricks to unsettle each other and part of making it is to have the mental strength to see it off - and in any case what kind of hopeless concentration do you have to have to be put off by this?

I'd regard it as a sign the guy is on the ragged edge and smile as I stuck the next winner past him. I'd probably throw in a squeaky foot turn just after winning it too, to rub it in.

It's complete nonsense.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree. Its cheating - it's definitely gaining far more of an edge than ignoring the time rule for example. I want to see the best tennis players win not those that are best at putting off their opponents. Im obviously against sportsmen being allowed to get away with those "naughty tricks" in any scenario.

Does moving around on the baseline count as cheating? Or spinning the racquet in your hand? Or SABR? Or moving up to the baseline from behind? Or how about not being ready to receive, or putting your hand up if you claim to see something out of the corner of your eye? Or wearing garish shorts, like Stan?

How about banging your racquet on the floor when your opponent is about to play a shot; shouting out as they are about to do so; removing a small laser pen from your pocket and shining it in their eye?

I would say the line is pretty easy to draw. If you have a legitimate tennis reason to do it (which moving around on the baseline or SABRing is) then its allowable. If you don't, then its cheating as you are deliberately trying to put them off - which is hindrance. This is no different to the time rule, on-court coaching or any other rule which players break to get an advantage.

Obviously, claiming to see something in the crowd is impossible to police as a one-off, so you would need the umpire to be aware and note if a player seemed to be doing it regularly.

As for what Stan wears, that's obviously a fashion crime, but unless someone comes out in reflective gear designed to dazzle the opponent, I think its probably allowable.

As Lydian says all these things go on at junior tournaments - along with deliberate bad line calls; cheating on the score; parents trying to put the opponent off. You seem to be saying that's all ok - the poor little lambs who are playing fairly just need to get tougher.

Obviously there is a line that shouldn't be crossed but playing in silence isn't one of them. I for one don't condone most of what goes on at junior level, but to be honest you don't see junior gamesmanship aspects at pro level anyway...most of it being due to lack of any umpiring at all. So where that line operates is up for debate...but I just don't think shoe scraping is a line-crosser because it cant really be that loud from 80ft away with the noise of the audience all around too. Murray should be a seasoned enough pro to filter out such relative trivialities - and yes he will have handled far worse in the juniors! As said, all sports at the top end don't operate in library/museum conditions.

bogbrush wrote:Zverev giving Simon a bit of a hiding here.

Could be an interesting match if Nadal beats Verdasco. Rafas had some trouble with teenagers recently and if he were to lose to Zverev I'd have to resurrect that old post I did about unruly kids beating up elderly Spanish gents.

'Promising youngster beats up OAP'
Could be a good summary of our debates too, Bogbrush

Wow Nadal warned for swearing.

Great game from Nadal to break back. 5-5.

Massive win for Rafa. Won 15 of the last 16 points I think having been match point down. Zverev will be thinking about that easy volley he had to win for some time to come!

Just seen that missed volley by Zverev. Oh dear. Would have been a tremendous win for him. Rarely seen Rafa looking so happy and relaxed at the end. Wonder if that comeback will be a turning point for him.
Stan the Man also missed a sitter - in fact even easier than the Zverev shot - which would have given him MP v Goffin. To add to comments on the Rafa/Uncle thread, I see that Isner lost to Nishi despite never facing a break point. Shows that big serving alone aint gonna get the job done.