6N 2016: England v Wales, 12 March

First topic message reminder :

Seagultaf wrote:

True Raven wrote:Also the decision where foxy got tackled and the ball squirted out to north who had a run in.  To me it looked like an England defender knocked it backwards out of foxys grasp.  It mirrored the Liam Williams tackle in mike brown where he went to the tmo to see if it was a knock on or not.  Why not check both incidents though?

And north from the photos clearly got the ball away before he was out

That's what I Thought also. Not sure who caught the ball when North flicked it in field but he looked clean through on the try line. Very big descision!

Rees Webb!

Hoonercat wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Hmm, like I said North wasn't touch: http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/14958246/england-show-how-far-come-six-nations-how-far-to-go
And the try that got disallowed was a clear try, that clearly went backwards off an England player. Just two of many lucky decisions to go England's way that afternoon, like all the lucky decisions with England not driving straight at the scrum, being offside, and lying all over the breakdown all game. Fair play to England for doing their homework on the amateur Joubert.

mikey_dragon wrote:Just sums up England 16th and now 17th man for the evening. Well done England.

mikey_dragon wrote:Wow England's 16th man is on fire today

mikey_dragon wrote:Well done England and Joubert.

mikey_dragon wrote:Well it looks as if England will win, especially with their 16th man, but you won't get any complaints from me

Mikey from February

mikey_dragon wrote:Where-as we're all tired of anti-welsh sentiment. It's not coincidence that a few posters happen to be mentioning it. It's also not coincidence that the team who mostly gets mentioned in the context of articles like this is Wales, a sentiment that happens to follow all Wales fixtures. There's clear whinging at what Wales apparently cheated and got away with in the OP and we have to put up with reading it after every game.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Gwlad wrote:We all know the ref is very poor... in the 2nd we smashed England towards the end

Due to England having a player in the bin, thanks to this dreadful referee, who apparently is also to blame for his assistant's mistakes.

Cole was in the bin for repeated infringements, took his time after writing letters of warning to actually do anything. just a bad ref like he was in RWC. He should be banned

Can we clarify? Was the referee awful or biased? So, was he just making incorrect calls or was he just making calls in favour of England.

If he was just bad, maybe England got the benefit of contentious calls because they were attacking more and the referees are inclined to give decisions to the attacking team?

Personally, i thought he may have guessed a bit with the scrum and gone with the team putting in, but don't think he was too bad at all.

The one error he has made that's being blown up is the George North one, but the flag went up straight away so the target of your anger should be the touch judge. But if Wales had turned up in the first 60 minutes, you wouldn't have been relying on a snap second call in the last minute going with you.

[quote="SecretFly"]????

Explain, as my one eye fails to see where?[/quote

Happy to.I read your post as approaching the state of the Welsh team from a single perspective.I did not say you were a cyclops or acting in a cyclopean manner.I would never say or imply that.If I gave you that impression please accept my unreserved apology.My own view,equally cycloptic, is that the welsh team is in crisis on the basis of recent performances.Whether that is down to team selection,coaching inadequacy,individual competence or individual loss of form or all four is something I can't decide.But Warren Gatland and his world class coaching team won't be refunding me the several hundred pounds I paid for Mrs EJ and I to watch that abject performance the team dished up yesterday.

It has been many years since a Welsh performance has been condemned by even the most uncritical of the Welsh media and with good reason.The last 20 minutes may have got us a respectable scoreline but a top 3 SH side would have put 60 points on us.We've been there before and I don't need to experience it again.Time for Gats and his minions to shape up or ship out.

The ref was fine to this neutral. Did a decent job on the scrums where both front rows cheated or are used to cheating., Didn't make any glaring errors, used the TMO well, explained his decisions well. Worst mistake was the TJ for north in touch - but even that was marginal. NO other glaring errors - you have to remember that a lot of rugby reffing is not exact - its a judgement call

Are posters seriously suggesting wales lost due to the referee?

Blame the sh!t coaching structure in place. Like Paul Rees in the guardian said wales are like an ugly child only a mother could love. We are sh!t and gatland blaming the players is pathetic, have a look at his own coaching team first. After the review of this six nations if howley keeps his job then we're screwed until 2020

True Raven - its a common theme - to some welsh frans they only lose because of the ref. Never because they were second best. Several of them on this thread and it happens after every defeat

~Fans not unsurprisingly only see the incidents against their own team but these Welsh posters take it to extremes. apparently England should have had two players off and one try less Wales should have had a try more

TJ wrote:True Raven - its a common theme - to some welsh frans they only lose because of the ref.  Never because they were second best.  Several of them on this thread and it happens after every defeat

~Fans not unsurprisingly only see the incidents against their own team but these Welsh posters take it to extremes.  apparently England should have had two players off and one try less Wales should have had a try more

Take your own advice TJ and just ignore them. You keep talking about 'the Welsh posters' and what they have done, and that only gives them satisfaction. So ignore them, don't mention them, and they might get bored. You're giving them ammo by engaging with them.

Also, don't forget which set of fans took it to extremes against Joubert last time. Like you say, it's only the incidents against their own team that fans see. But every nation has fans that do it. Don't pretend that Wales is somehow unique in this.

My view, as posted elsewhere: Joubert had a good game.

True Raven wrote:Are posters seriously suggesting wales lost due to the referee?

Blame the sh!t coaching structure in place.  Like Paul Rees in the guardian said wales are like an ugly child only a mother could love.  We are sh!t and gatland blaming the players is pathetic, have a look at his own coaching team first.  After the review of this six nations if howley keeps his job then we're screwed until 2020

Only Mikey and Gwlad. Mikey is being serious, I assume, but Gwlad is a WUM so probably just doing it for fun

Griff wrote:

TJ wrote:True Raven - its a common theme - to some welsh frans they only lose because of the ref.  Never because they were second best.  Several of them on this thread and it happens after every defeat

~Fans not unsurprisingly only see the incidents against their own team but these Welsh posters take it to extremes.  apparently England should have had two players off and one try less Wales should have had a try more

Take your own advice TJ and just ignore them. You keep talking about 'the Welsh posters' and what they have done, and that only gives them satisfaction. So ignore them, don't mention them, and they might get bored. You're giving them ammo by engaging with them.

Also, don't forget which set of fans took it to extremes against Joubert last time. Like you say, it's only the incidents against their own team that fans see. But every nation has fans that do it. Don't pretend that Wales is somehow unique in this.

My view, as posted elsewhere: Joubert had a good game.

I thought Joubert had a good and fair game.

Francis cited. Marler admits the offence which is a minimum 4 week ban but still being investigated - tho as he has admitted it he will surely cop the ban. No decision yet on the forearm / elbow strike

Hoonercat wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Hmm, like I said North wasn't touch: http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/14958246/england-show-how-far-come-six-nations-how-far-to-go
And the try that got disallowed was a clear try, that clearly went backwards off an England player. Just two of many lucky decisions to go England's way that afternoon, like all the lucky decisions with England not driving straight at the scrum, being offside, and lying all over the breakdown all game. Fair play to England for doing their homework on the amateur Joubert.

mikey_dragon wrote:Just sums up England 16th and now 17th man for the evening. Well done England.

mikey_dragon wrote:Wow England's 16th man is on fire today

mikey_dragon wrote:Well done England and Joubert.

mikey_dragon wrote:Well it looks as if England will win, especially with their 16th man, but you won't get any complaints from me

Mikey from February

mikey_dragon wrote:Where-as we're all tired of anti-welsh sentiment. It's not coincidence that a few posters happen to be mentioning it. It's also not coincidence that the team who mostly gets mentioned in the context of articles like this is Wales, a sentiment that happens to follow all Wales fixtures. There's clear whinging at what Wales apparently cheated and got away with in the OP and we have to put up with reading it after every game.

Hoonercat this is one of a number of posts that you post at me which borders on stalkerish behaviour. You're always sniffing around my comments, you want a cwtch do you?

Not sure what your point is btw? Having said that, after each Wales game in this 6 nations plastic fans have been blaming the ref for all wales' wins! What a jammy bunch of cheating gits we are! I criticise Joubert who is a very well documented poor official, along with another Welsh and Scottish poster, and then we get the usual calls that Wales are ALWAYS blaming the ref. Funny that two of those posters happen to support a team that can't beat Wales to save their lives.

robbo277 wrote:Can we clarify? Was the referee awful or biased? So, was he just making incorrect calls or was he just making calls in favour of England.

If he was just bad, maybe England got the benefit of contentious calls because they were attacking more and the referees are inclined to give decisions to the attacking team?

Personally, i thought he may have guessed a bit with the scrum and gone with the team putting in, but don't think he was too bad at all.

The one error he has made that's being blown up is the George North one, but the flag went up straight away so the target of your anger should be the touch judge. But if Wales had turned up in the first 60 minutes, you wouldn't have been relying on a snap second call in the last minute going with you.

I guess it's hard tell, but this is a good post that adds to the discussion, unlike the whingers who just love to whinge at Wales. Looking back I can see I was rather upset yesterday and this morning - although I rarely understand most of Joubert's calls I think most of the blame lays with us for that slow start.

Griff wrote:

True Raven wrote:Are posters seriously suggesting wales lost due to the referee?

Blame the sh!t coaching structure in place.  Like Paul Rees in the guardian said wales are like an ugly child only a mother could love.  We are sh!t and gatland blaming the players is pathetic, have a look at his own coaching team first.  After the review of this six nations if howley keeps his job then we're screwed until 2020

Only Mikey and Gwlad. Mikey is being serious, I assume, but Gwlad is a WUM so probably just doing it for fun

I'm relaxing on that front now. I'll just add that for a number of years I've thought Joubert is out of his depth, that's from watching him officiate our games against NZ and Aus, but I don't lay the blame on him for any losses to those two teams. As for this game, Wales weren't good enough to beat England, who look good enough to get the slam.

It appears Marler has got away with the forearm striking, which I don't agree with. Francis has been cited and Haskell got warned for his neck roll. There is no news on the Wail about Marler's slur.

espn scrum says Marler is still being investigated for both offenses.  
"Tournament organisers have confirmed they are investigating an incident in the first-half in which Lee can be heard on referee Craig Joubert's microphone being called a "gypsy boy".

Angered by the insult, Lee squared off with Marler and a statement released by the Rugby Football Union on Sunday afternoon confirmed the Harlequins loosehead was responsible for the remark.

Verbal abuse of a player based on religion, race, colour, national or ethnic origin, sexual orientation or otherwise carries a minimum sanction of a four-week suspension.

Marler's admission of guilt thus effectively signals the end of his Six Nations as England are seeking to complete the Grand Slam in their final match of the Championship against France in Paris on Saturday.

Adding to Marler's woes in an eventful first half for the Harlequins front row is an incident in which he appeared to land a forearm in the face of Wales prop Rob Evans, an offence which carries an entry-point sanction of two weeks.

"We are aware of the incidents and are establishing the facts at this moment," a Six Nations spokesperson told Press Association Sport."

Didn't Marler apologise to Samson lee at half time. So maybe nothing will come of it.

Matter closed.

I really hope for the good of rugby the natter is not closed - and with independent citing commisioners it should not be. He has admitted a racial slur - thats a 4 week ban.

majesticimperialman wrote:Didn't Marler apologise to Samson lee at half time. So maybe nothing will come of it.

Matter closed.

So then, that means I can go around calling people whatever too and then just apologise for it and all will be well?

TJ wrote:espn scrum says Marler is still being investigated for both offenses.  
"Tournament organisers have confirmed they are investigating an incident in the first-half in which Lee can be heard on referee Craig Joubert's microphone being called a "gypsy boy".

Angered by the insult, Lee squared off with Marler and a statement released by the Rugby Football Union on Sunday afternoon confirmed the Harlequins loosehead was responsible for the remark.

Verbal abuse of a player based on religion, race, colour, national or ethnic origin, sexual orientation or otherwise carries a minimum sanction of a four-week suspension.

Marler's admission of guilt thus effectively signals the end of his Six Nations as England are seeking to complete the Grand Slam in their final match of the Championship against France in Paris on Saturday.

Adding to Marler's woes in an eventful first half for the Harlequins front row is an incident in which he appeared to land a forearm in the face of Wales prop Rob Evans, an offence which carries an entry-point sanction of two weeks.

"We are aware of the incidents and are establishing the facts at this moment," a Six Nations spokesperson told Press Association Sport."

Fair enough. It was just supposition from the Fail, I guess because nothing has been announced yet.

I am just saying what Inverdale said before the Scotland game. that Marler apologised at half time.

He did not say that was the end of it. but it might be.

RiscaGame wrote:It appears Marler has got away with the forearm striking, which I don't agree with. Francis has been cited and Haskell got warned for his neck roll. There is no news on the Wail about Marler's slur.

When in the game did that happen? I was in a crowd and didn't see everything. Didn't hear the Marler comment to Lee either. I want to go back and look at a replay.

Dan Coles disallowed try the strike happened

mikey_dragon wrote:

Hoonercat wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Hmm, like I said North wasn't touch: http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/14958246/england-show-how-far-come-six-nations-how-far-to-go
And the try that got disallowed was a clear try, that clearly went backwards off an England player. Just two of many lucky decisions to go England's way that afternoon, like all the lucky decisions with England not driving straight at the scrum, being offside, and lying all over the breakdown all game. Fair play to England for doing their homework on the amateur Joubert.

mikey_dragon wrote:Just sums up England 16th and now 17th man for the evening. Well done England.

mikey_dragon wrote:Wow England's 16th man is on fire today

mikey_dragon wrote:Well done England and Joubert.

mikey_dragon wrote:Well it looks as if England will win, especially with their 16th man, but you won't get any complaints from me

Mikey from February

mikey_dragon wrote:Where-as we're all tired of anti-welsh sentiment. It's not coincidence that a few posters happen to be mentioning it. It's also not coincidence that the team who mostly gets mentioned in the context of articles like this is Wales, a sentiment that happens to follow all Wales fixtures. There's clear whinging at what Wales apparently cheated and got away with in the OP and we have to put up with reading it after every game.

Hoonercat this is one of a number of posts that you post at me which borders on stalkerish behaviour. You're always sniffing around my comments, you want a cwtch do you?

Not sure what your point is btw? Having said that, after each Wales game in this 6 nations plastic fans have been blaming the ref for all wales' wins! What a jammy bunch of cheating gits we are! I criticise Joubert who is a very well documented poor official, along with another Welsh and Scottish poster, and then we get the usual calls that Wales are ALWAYS blaming the ref. Funny that two of those posters happen to support a team that can't beat Wales to save their lives.

That doesn't surprise me one little bit.

I have congratulated England on another thread but let's be honest had Wales removed their thumb's from their a$$es from the start it would have been a different story. Had Wales won that game in the last 7 minutes (and they would have had the touch been more observant) we would have had the English saying things about England throwing the game away etc. etc. etc. Wales, to almost take the game from England in 7 minutes proved what amazing rugby they can play and I hope Gatland et el have taken in what style should be played from the first whistle. No Way are Wales in crisis they have one of the best defence's in the world and that's why England were not further ahead. Itoje was immense for England, one of the best performances I have witnessed from a lock in many years and his power in the breakdown was one huge reason Wales were stifled.

Cuthbert needs to be retired from international duties he was responsible for poor tackling and at least one English try. All in all I do not believe Wales are in 'Crisis', far from it. We need to throw that ball around more and use angles rather and direct smashing through the line and kicking the ball away. i am still convinced that if we play the way we can we could get one win in New Zealand in June. England are better but I think Wales proved they are not all that better at the moment. Oh and I think England could have had 16 men on the field in that last 10 and Wales would have still been scoring the tries.

On Marler, Telegraph says the tryline forearm hasn't been cited but his words to Lee fall under another tournament code which has no time limit. Six Nations committee understood to be considering the matter.

I could almost understand Marler not receiving a ban for the forearm (if there was sound reasoning), but for it to not even warrant a citing isn't on. It does deserve looking at.

rainbow-warrior wrote:I have congratulated England on another thread but let's be honest had Wales removed their thumb's from their a$$es from the start it would have been a different story.  Had Wales won that game in the last 7 minutes (and they would have had the touch been more observant) we would have had the English saying things about England throwing the game away etc. etc. etc.  Wales, to almost take the game from England in 7 minutes proved what amazing rugby they can play and I hope Gatland et el have taken in what style should be played from the first whistle.  No Way are Wales in crisis they have one of the best defence's in the world and that's why England were not further ahead.  Itoje was immense for England, one of the best performances I have witnessed from a lock in many years and his power in the breakdown was one huge reason Wales were stifled.

Cuthbert needs to be retired from international duties he was responsible for poor tackling and at least one English try.  All in all I do not believe Wales are in 'Crisis', far from it.  We need to throw that ball around more and use angles rather and direct smashing through the line and kicking the ball away.  i am still convinced that if we play the way we can we could get one win in New Zealand in June. England are better but I think Wales proved they are not all that better at the moment.  Oh and I think England could have had 16 men on the field in that last 10 and Wales would have still been scoring the tries.

The crisis for Wales is twofold,the ability of the players to execute the gameplan determined by the coaches,and the gameplan itself.Taking this season alone there isn't one game where Wales have been able to turn in an 80 minute performance.We were very poor in the second half against the French,second best to the Irish for 40 minutes and second best to the Scots for 60 minutes.Yesterday was the lowest point of Welsh rugby since Gatland's appointment.The tour to NZ is looking like 3 serious tunings.The welsh gameplan looks to have been devised by the weejy weejy birds.The response of the chief weejy weejy is to blame the players,take no responsibility for their gameplan and game preparation and state that training went well.The only thing missing was blaming the referee,TMO and TJ.As Fast Eddie put it,Wales have been together 8 years and England 6 weeks.Didn't look that way yesterday or for some considerable time.Time to face the fact we are going backwards at an increasing rate and sticking 60 points on Italy won't disguise that.Crisis,what crisis?

exile jack

Wales have for along time now played the same way. If you take the first half against England, they looked almost like they did not wan't to be there at all.then in the second half with the game nearly over and Wales on the losing streak., some one like Dan Biggar does some think like his charge down and scoring the try like he did, sparks the team in to life and they come back fighting and produce some fantastic rugby.

So like you say crisis, what crisis?

Exile Jack, I have been of the opinion for some time that Gatland and his coaching team are well past their sell by, but few Welsh fans seem to agree.

Coaching and leadership is about getting the most out of resources and few would argue that we don't have some excellent players capable of playing very good rugby together. Most of the time they don't do that. In the last three years Ireland and England have provided the most consistent competition in the NH and our performance against them has not been good. Saturday was the third 6N's loss in a row to England (we snatched the WC win but we're not the best team for most of the match)

Gatland et al are failing to get the best out of the players. When he arrived in Wales, Gatland took the same Welsh squad humiliated in the 2007 WC and won a GS. Jones is in the process of doing the same thing with England.

Gatland made a mistake distancing himself from Saturday's performance. Time for a change, but the WRU will bottle it.

rainbow-warrior wrote:I have congratulated England on another thread but let's be honest had Wales removed their thumb's from their a$$es from the start it would have been a different story.  Had Wales won that game in the last 7 minutes (and they would have had the touch been more observant) we would have had the English saying things about England throwing the game away etc. etc. etc.  Wales, to almost take the game from England in 7 minutes proved what amazing rugby they can play and I hope Gatland et el have taken in what style should be played from the first whistle.  No Way are Wales in crisis they have one of the best defence's in the world and that's why England were not further ahead.  Itoje was immense for England, one of the best performances I have witnessed from a lock in many years and his power in the breakdown was one huge reason Wales were stifled.

Cuthbert needs to be retired from international duties he was responsible for poor tackling and at least one English try.  All in all I do not believe Wales are in 'Crisis', far from it.  We need to throw that ball around more and use angles rather and direct smashing through the line and kicking the ball away.  i am still convinced that if we play the way we can we could get one win in New Zealand in June. England are better but I think Wales proved they are not all that better at the moment.  Oh and I think England could have had 16 men on the field in that last 10 and Wales would have still been scoring the tries.

Just remember they were playing against 14 men.

48 hours for the citing officer so hopefuly Marler will be cited for the elbow / forearm

TJ wrote:48 hours for the citing officer so hopefuly Marler will be cited for the elbow / forearm

the brief replay I saw, Lee and Marler were both
pushing and shoving. ..including use of forearms.
Marler's arm when a step further and slid into a punch...but a pretty feeble one as he appeared to pull or disguise it. Pretty much little more than handbags.
Any punishment resulting, will be proportionate to any actual damage done to Lee......
ie fairly light.

gregortree wrote:

TJ wrote:48 hours for the citing officer so hopefuly Marler will be cited for the elbow / forearm

the brief replay I saw, Lee and Marler were both
pushing and shoving. ..including use of forearms.
Marler's arm when a step further and slid into a punch...but a pretty feeble one as he appeared to pull or disguise it. Pretty much little more than handbags.
Any punishment resulting, will be proportionate to any actual damage done to Lee......
ie fairly light.

Think you're looking at the wrong thing.

gregortree wrote:

TJ wrote:48 hours for the citing officer so hopefuly Marler will be cited for the elbow / forearm

the brief replay  I saw,  Lee and Marler were both
pushing and shoving. ..including use of forearms.
Marler's arm when a step further and slid into a punch...but a pretty  feeble one as he appeared to pull or disguise it. Pretty much little  more than handbags.
Any punishment resulting, will be proportionate to any actual  damage done to Lee......
ie fairly  light.

TJ was talking about the elbow on Rob Evans, not Samson Lee. For me it looked like a punch though but that was unsighted.

rainbow-warrior wrote:I have congratulated England on another thread but let's be honest had Wales removed their thumb's from their a$$es from the start it would have been a different story.  Had Wales won that game in the last 7 minutes (and they would have had the touch been more observant) we would have had the English saying things about England throwing the game away etc. etc. etc.  Wales, to almost take the game from England in 7 minutes proved what amazing rugby they can play and I hope Gatland et el have taken in what style should be played from the first whistle.  No Way are Wales in crisis they have one of the best defence's in the world and that's why England were not further ahead.  Itoje was immense for England, one of the best performances I have witnessed from a lock in many years and his power in the breakdown was one huge reason Wales were stifled.

Cuthbert needs to be retired from international duties he was responsible for poor tackling and at least one English try.  All in all I do not believe Wales are in 'Crisis', far from it.  We need to throw that ball around more and use angles rather and direct smashing through the line and kicking the ball away.  i am still convinced that if we play the way we can we could get one win in New Zealand in June. England are better but I think Wales proved they are not all that better at the moment.  Oh and I think England could have had 16 men on the field in that last 10 and Wales would have still been scoring the tries.

Wales are a good side and fully capitalised both on England's perhaps lack of mental awareness to finish off games and the extra man but England took the foot off the gas, that was plain to see. Ford's charge down epitomised that. He was so flat, people blame the pass but it was nothing to do with it. They ran an attacking kick in their 22 with the fullback in the line. When you're that far ahead you simply don't need to do stupid things such as that.

I severely doubt Wales can win  a test in NZ though. The last team to win there was SA... 7 years ago. They've lost 3 times in 13 years at home. It simply doesn't happen. Wales have gone severely behind against Ireland and England and were also behind to Scotland at one point. NZ would have blown Wales away like they always do.... they never take the foot off the gas, never. They will punish such complacency. McCaw and Carter out probably improves the NZ side player wise, leadership will be different sure but they have a large number of capable leaders in Whitelock and Read for that not to be a worry.

Based on performances in this 6N I think only England are going to sneak a win or two this summer. If Wales had SA I'd have them down for a win but not against NZ away.

Well done to England!  Deserving winners of this match and deserving winners (surely) of the Grandslam.  Most consistent team of the tournament and will reap the reward.

Wales:  Can't really add to what others have said, and what was blatantly obvious on Saturday.  A poor, poor display of rugby.  Gatland should have taken some responsibility for the loss instead of publicly berating the very players HE is paid silly money to coach.  Shaun Edwards is the only coach in the Wales camp who his earning his place, with another solid defensive effort from the team.

With regards to the ref/linesman calls - tough luck.  Something like this seems to happen in every match now, so it's no surprise to anyone anymore (it was Joubert for crissakes - what did we expect)?!  Even if Wales had pulled this one off and sneaked a win, they would still have been the lesser team by a long way and undeserving winners.

Watching Wales batter Italy next week and show the kind of 'flair' and 'free-flowing' rugby that is so easy to play against a lesser team, will be a hollow experience for many.  Putting 50 points on Italy will prove nothing and fix nothing for the Welsh team, it's coaching goons and a certain out of form player who would currently be more at home in a circus tent than on a rugby pitch (and who will probably score a hat-trick leading to conclusive proof that he has gotten his 'mojo' back/regained his form/etc/blah).

Wales seriously need to get their sh!t together before the summer tour to NZ or face a total hammering.

Positives?  Defense and I guess they didn't give up.  That's about it.

I thought England were really impressive on Saturday, and the praise being heaped on Itoje is entirely justified. I also thought the flankers Robshaw/Haskell had a great day, as did Mike Brown at 15.

Wales were nowhere in that first half, and it took a monumental effort from Dan Biggar to drag them back into it. He seemed at times to be on a one man missione to wake Wales up from a collective slumber, and when he did we saw a bit of what Wales can do.

These are the top two sides in the NH. 3rd place will be settled in Dublin next weekend.

GavCanDance wrote:Wales:  Can't really add to what others have said, and what was blatantly obvious on Saturday.  A poor, poor display of rugby.  Gatland should have taken some responsibility for the loss instead of publicly berating the very players HE is paid silly money to coach.  Shaun Edwards is the only coach in the Wales camp who his earning his place, with another solid defensive effort from the team.

I think this is a touch harsh on Gatland. I think he's perfectly entitled to have a go at his players for that first 40 minutes. Wales have a well drilled and settled team. I'm not sure what a coach can do when his players, who we know are capable of more, perform so poorly as a collective over the first 40-50 minutes of a rugby match.

Are Wales well coached on the whole? Yes.
Are they a settled and experienced team? Yes.
Did Gatland get the team selection right? Yes, perhaps save for one or two debates (e.g. Cuthbert).
Did the players turn up and play to their potential in the first 40-50 minutes? No.

I will never understand the barrage of criticism Warren Gatland receives from the Welsh rugby public. Best coach in the NH, although Eddie Jones looks capable of taking that mantle in time.

anyone think its apparent Nowell was gassed a couple of times? Hes a great young player, lots of heart and commitment that guys like May simply don't have but his lack of pace seemed to be something teams exploit and in future may even start to earmark. North for instance isn't a speedster but "had" him a couple of times.

RiscaGame wrote:I could almost understand Marler not receiving a ban for the forearm (if there was sound reasoning), but for it to not even warrant a citing isn't on. It does deserve looking at.

If you think that warrants a citing then you need to go off and watch a more genteel sport. That sort of thing, a nudge here and a nudge there happens at every single contact. It was not a punch it was a push with the forearm at worst. Some people should grow up.

fa0019 wrote:anyone think its apparent Nowell was gassed a couple of times? Hes a great young player, lots of heart and commitment that guys like May simply don't have but his lack of pace seemed to be something teams exploit and in future may even start to earmark. North for instance isn't a speedster but "had" him a couple of times.

Yes, at least twice North left Nowell in the dust. I didn't think North was that quick was it a mental defensive problem with Nowell rather than a sheer lack of pace?

Marler's was a clear uppercut to the face, you can see his fist below Evans's head.

https://twitter.com/trevormurphy73/status/708690727212032000

I terms of Wales I don't seem Gatland trying to make the next step, trying to make this very good side, a great side. Sometimes you have to spit into the wind.

The French have started to look quite dangerous in their offloading... when they get it right, learn when to and when not to, they will start to run havoc. They look like a team with a plan even though they've been pretty woeful... mainly because they stuck with the worst flyhalf in rugby I've ever seen in top tier test match rugby (plisson).

"I think he's perfectly entitled to have a go at his players for that first 40 minutes. "

Yes I agree with you he is, BUT, he shouldn't do it live on TV. That sort of negativity is for behind closed doors only.

"Gatland made a mistake distancing himself from Saturday's performance."

I agree also. Gatland is responsible for preparing his team to play a Test match. They weren't very well prepared were they? So who's fault is that?

englandglory4ever wrote:

fa0019 wrote:anyone think its apparent Nowell was gassed a couple of times? Hes a great young player, lots of heart and commitment that guys like May simply don't have but his lack of pace seemed to be something teams exploit and in future may even start to earmark. North for instance isn't a speedster but "had" him a couple of times.

Yes, at least twice North left Nowell in the dust. I didn't think North was that quick was it a mental defensive problem with Nowell rather than a sheer lack of pace?

Maybe a bit of awareness but the crucial thing is that he doesn't have that pace to make up for it. Take Brown, he's such a good reader of the game that his lack of pace is never an issue in defence. Jonny May too can always count of his pace to get him out of situations where he's been caught napping. Nowell has yet to develop that first class reading of the game IMO and its a definitive weakness teams will/should exploit. You can't knock his commitment mind and sometimes I'd rather have a limited committed guy then a class chap with wavering interest.

englandglory4ever wrote:

fa0019 wrote:anyone think its apparent Nowell was gassed a couple of times? Hes a great young player, lots of heart and commitment that guys like May simply don't have but his lack of pace seemed to be something teams exploit and in future may even start to earmark. North for instance isn't a speedster but "had" him a couple of times.

Yes, at least twice North left Nowell in the dust. I didn't think North was that quick was it a mental defensive problem with Nowell rather than a sheer lack of pace?

Nowell has a great step and is good over the crucial shorter distances, but he isn't an out and out flyer. He's being used well by England at the moment but I do think that at the very highest level his pace could become an issue, especially in tandem with Brown at 15. Both are fine players and fully committed and at the moment I don't think England have better. Still, I can see someone like May or Wade coming in down the line.

englandglory4ever wrote:"I think he's perfectly entitled to have a go at his players for that first 40 minutes. "

Yes I agree with you he is, BUT, he shouldn't do it live on TV. That sort of negativity is for behind closed doors only.

When you're nilled and concede 16 points vs an equally matched side at half time, players should be adult enough to accept that coaches should be frank with them. I don't think its disloyal to say in the media they weren't good enough and such performances were unacceptable. They know it.