6N 2016: England v Wales, 12 March

First topic message reminder :

Seagultaf wrote:

True Raven wrote:Also the decision where foxy got tackled and the ball squirted out to north who had a run in.  To me it looked like an England defender knocked it backwards out of foxys grasp.  It mirrored the Liam Williams tackle in mike brown where he went to the tmo to see if it was a knock on or not.  Why not check both incidents though?

And north from the photos clearly got the ball away before he was out

That's what I Thought also. Not sure who caught the ball when North flicked it in field but he looked clean through on the try line. Very big descision!

Rees Webb!

nobbled wrote:Either England played well for 50-60 minutes or Wales played badly for 50-60 minutes, or both.
The turnaround definitely came after Youngs terrible pass led to Fords kick being charged down.
Why did England go to pieces thereafter? Was it the subsequent change in personnel - taking Farrell out of the 12 slot for Manu? Was it simply Wales remembered they know how to beat England?
What do other people think? I didn't think about it at the time. I was too busy praying for the clock to show 80 minutes.
Whatever the reason I hope EJ is doing something about it.

Haven't really studied why but I can't remember Wales ever winning a decent lineout ball in an attacking position like the one which led to the bust through the centre for their second try.

Well done England.. Blew us away in the first half (first 60)... Don't know what we where doing, but it wasn't playing international rugby..

Said before the 6 Nations kicked off, England where going to get a Slam.. Go on, prove at least one of my predictions right..

Majesticimperialman/Offload,thanks for your replies.Although I don't take WOL Rugby as an infallible source of opinion on welsh rugby there's a good article today by Delme Parfitt on 5 issues needing to be addressed by Gats and the world class coaching team.I read somewhere else today that people who doubt the bona fides of the Welsh team are foolish so foolishly I highlight just three examples of coaching inadequacy by Wales on Saturday-the pairing of AWJ and Bradley D against Kruis and Itoje effectively losing us the lineout from the start;the inability to get Jamie and JD to play as they do for their club sides,and the decision to kick(badly) to one of the best back threes in Europe.

A chip from Biggar to behind the defence would have at least said to me they were changing tactics after they kept getting caught in possession and turned over.

Jack, International isn't club.  It isn't..at any level.  Club can often look much more slick and defined because at club there are more games with more space available to let confidence shine and moves stick.

So, I'd discount the Jamie+JD point personally.  England at Twickenham wasn't club.

On the kicking badly to brilliant counter-attacking sides.... well, yes, that can often look foolish.... but so too can trying to run everything out and either getting isolated and turned over or having a bunch of mates to help you and still get turned over.  Sometimes the opposition have two good weapons to make any decision the wrong one.  England are such a team right now.  They've got good systems in all areas.  It'll be an effort regardless of whether you kick or try to move forward through phases.

exile jack wrote:Majesticimperialman/Offload,thanks for your replies.Although I don't take WOL Rugby as an infallible source of opinion on welsh rugby there's a good article today by Delme Parfitt on 5 issues needing to be addressed by Gats and the world class coaching team.I read somewhere else today that people who doubt the bona fides of the Welsh team are foolish so foolishly I highlight just three examples of coaching inadequacy by Wales on Saturday-the pairing of AWJ and Bradley D against Kruis and Itoje effectively losing us the lineout from the start;the inability to get Jamie and JD to play as they do for their club sides,and the decision to kick(badly) to one of the best back threes in Europe.

Jack - I'm saying it is foolish for anyone to consider this team a spent force - as for your concerns, Charteris would have been paired with AWJ if he had not been coming back from injury - As for the next 2 you might want to read my suggestion that we need a world class backs coach and a change in emphasis about taking the game to the oppo from the beginning and expressing ourselves much like England did in the first 50. We seem to play as if we are shackled and that mind set has to alter. It may produce some gaps elsewhere but this style will now only ensure that we fail to get close to the top 3.

mikey_dragon wrote:A chip from Biggar to behind the defence would have at least said to me they were changing tactics after they kept getting caught in possession and turned over.

Biggar was even cleverer. He got Ford to chip it to him!

RubyGuby wrote:In essence there's little wrong with this welsh team and those that think otherwise are just plain foolish:

That's the attitude that results in mediocrity. Stick your head in the sand and pretend that it's just a blip and that Wales are world champions in waiting. Performance and results over last three years says otherwise.

Eight years is too long for this coaching team and a change is needed to get this talented team playing to their potential.

I nearly forgot about this, but watching the highlights I was reminded...

Please do not ever, ever let that TMO go anywhere near a game again. Even Joubert was getting peed off with him.

englandglory4ever wrote:

Hoonercat wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:3 tries to 1

So did wales win the moral victory?

Yeah. Unfortunately they don't count for much.

Tell me, now that England have won, is the 6N good again? Just a couple weeks ago people of all nations were stating that this year's tournament is one of the worst they've seen...

No, it's still one of the worst 6 nations I can remember, from an entertainment perspective. Maybe tight defences are strangling open play, maybe there was a WC hangover from the other contenders which flattered England slightly, though in fairness they did produce some of the most attractive rugby albeit it not for a full game.

No. The 6Ns is like chalk and cheese. The quality of rugby is pretty poor generally and won't bother any of the SH sides including Argentina. On the other-hand, the fan based tribal warfare is probably world class. When you have serial wummers like Guppy fish and Glad stirring the pot it all gets a bit needle like.

Until of course, Wales loose - then at least 50% of them disappear for a while.

offload wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:In essence there's little wrong with this welsh team and those that think otherwise are just plain foolish:

That's the attitude that results in mediocrity.  Stick your head in the sand and pretend that it's just a blip and that Wales are world champions in waiting.  Performance and results over last three years says otherwise.  

Eight years is too long for this coaching team and a change is needed to get this talented team playing to their potential.

Come on. You have a name on the tip of your tongue. You have a candidate in your mind. Who is it? Spit it out. Who is the newly anointed saviour on the wings?

SecretFly wrote:

offload wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:In essence there's little wrong with this welsh team and those that think otherwise are just plain foolish:

That's the attitude that results in mediocrity.  Stick your head in the sand and pretend that it's just a blip and that Wales are world champions in waiting.  Performance and results over last three years says otherwise.  

Eight years is too long for this coaching team and a change is needed to get this talented team playing to their potential.

Come on.  You have a name on the tip of your tongue.  You have a candidate in your mind.  Who is it?  Spit it out.  Who is the newly anointed saviour on the wings?

Stuart Lancaster.

SecretFly wrote:

offload wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:In essence there's little wrong with this welsh team and those that think otherwise are just plain foolish:

That's the attitude that results in mediocrity.  Stick your head in the sand and pretend that it's just a blip and that Wales are world champions in waiting.  Performance and results over last three years says otherwise.  

Eight years is too long for this coaching team and a change is needed to get this talented team playing to their potential.

Come on.  You have a name on the tip of your tongue.  You have a candidate in your mind.  Who is it?  Spit it out.  Who is the newly anointed saviour on the wings?

If Phil Vickery were to retire from playing...

I'd like to nominate Lyn Jones to take over Team Wales. Yes it would be a big blow as a Dragons supporter to lose his rugby brain, but that's the price we have to pay sometimes.

Then Luc can get that deserved cap too.

Jimpy wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

offload wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:In essence there's little wrong with this welsh team and those that think otherwise are just plain foolish:

That's the attitude that results in mediocrity.  Stick your head in the sand and pretend that it's just a blip and that Wales are world champions in waiting.  Performance and results over last three years says otherwise.  

Eight years is too long for this coaching team and a change is needed to get this talented team playing to their potential.

Come on.  You have a name on the tip of your tongue.  You have a candidate in your mind.  Who is it?  Spit it out.  Who is the newly anointed saviour on the wings?

Stuart Lancaster.

Ok -that genuinely made me laugh, and I'm getting some strange looks from the bloke works opposite me.

I think Wales need to go out of their comfort zone and risk losing some games but develop a strategy which will bring them closer to the 3Ns. You can see France trying the very thing. They want to develop a SH type intensity in attack.

I think its been clear for the last couple of years that Wales are not progressing and there seems to be zero evolution. There needs to be some shake up, either in playing personell or coaches. Gatland has had a lot of success BUT only in the NH. He has NEVER truly looked like making Wales a top 3 ranked team. Ive got a number of Welsh friends who think Gats needs to leave for Wales to take the next step.

SecretFly wrote:

offload wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:In essence there's little wrong with this welsh team and those that think otherwise are just plain foolish:

That's the attitude that results in mediocrity.  Stick your head in the sand and pretend that it's just a blip and that Wales are world champions in waiting.  Performance and results over last three years says otherwise.  

Eight years is too long for this coaching team and a change is needed to get this talented team playing to their potential.

Come on.  You have a name on the tip of your tongue.  You have a candidate in your mind.  Who is it?  Spit it out.  Who is the newly anointed saviour on the wings?

If Dai Young wins silverware at Wasps he's probably next in line. A few more years down the line hopefully we have guys like Danny Wilson and Jason Strange in the mix. Strange will probably be the next Dragons coach.

Its the Howleys that need to move on and possibly McBride. Get some world class SH coaches in - The raw material is there but to take it beyond 4th in the World will require something different. Here's hoping - A defeat like this is just what we needed to get the dialogue open and some real constructive critical analysis going instead of the drivel on here

wrfc1980 wrote:I think its been clear for the last couple of years that Wales are not progressing and there seems to be zero evolution. There needs to be some shake up, either in playing personell or coaches. Gatland has had a lot of success BUT only in the NH. He has NEVER truly looked like making Wales a top 3 ranked team. Ive got a number of Welsh friends who think Gats needs to leave for Wales to take the next step.

You may be right. But it's difficult when you consider Gats is the most successful Welsh coach in a generation. Arguably the most successful coach of a NH side since SCW. If you judge purely on 6N then the most successful including SCW.

It's a gamble to drop him unless you clearly have a replacement with better credentials - and I think you'd be hard pushed to get one.

Dangerous times for Wales if they are thinking mutiny on the Bounty now.

Is Gatland just bad and holding Wales back (despite all his successes so far)...or is he actually the man that has been giving Wales a better go at things (even now) than they might be getting under a new coach?

Has Gatland's very success made Welsh rugby think he had less to do with it than the players he's chosen, the players he moulded, the style of play he's created for them, and the players he trusted, despite not always being from successful club sides (I'm looking at you Taulupe amongst others)......

That'll be a dangerous game to play if the decision is to offload Gatland with a handsome payoff to go home and finish painting those windows. It might work. It might prove a disaster.

nobbled wrote:

wrfc1980 wrote:I think its been clear for the last couple of years that Wales are not progressing and there seems to be zero evolution. There needs to be some shake up, either in playing personell or coaches. Gatland has had a lot of success BUT only in the NH. He has NEVER truly looked like making Wales a top 3 ranked team. Ive got a number of Welsh friends who think Gats needs to leave for Wales to take the next step.

You may be right. But it's difficult when you consider Gats is the most successful Welsh coach in a generation. Arguably the most successful coach of a NH side since SCW. If you judge purely on 6N then the most successful including SCW.

It's a gamble to drop him unless you clearly have a replacement with better credentials - and I think you'd be hard pushed to get one.

SL has a better strike rate vs SH teams and a better win percentage overall maybe Wales should call him up.

Wouldn't that be fun. Wales beating England at a WC semi-final... Lancaster at the helm. Ghosts coming back to haunt both sides in a weird way.

RubyGuby wrote:Its the Howleys that need to move on and possibly McBride. Get some world class SH coaches in - The raw material is there but to take it beyond 4th in the World will require something different. Here's hoping - A defeat like this is just what we needed to get the dialogue open and some real constructive critical analysis going instead of the drivel on here

The problem there Ruby is that the coaching team is seen as one. Howley and McBryde are not good enough but they are Gatland's boys and he won't let them go. Gatland has been great for Wales but that doesn't mean he's what we need going forward. The current players are the best available and occasionally show what they can do. Gatland and his coaches have shown zero ability to move the team forward for three years.

SecretFly wrote:Dangerous times for Wales if they are thinking mutiny on the Bounty now.

Is Gatland just bad and holding Wales back (despite all his successes so far)...or is he actually the man that has been giving Wales a better go at things (even now) than they might be getting under a new coach?

Has Gatland's very success made Welsh rugby think he had less to do with it than the players he's chosen, the players he moulded, the style of play he's created for them, and the players he trusted, despite not always being from successful club sides (I'm looking at you Taulupe amongst others)......

That'll be a dangerous game to play if the decision is to offload Gatland with a handsome payoff to go home and finish painting those windows.  It might work.  It might prove a disaster.

It's always easier to do nothing - convince yourself that "everything will be alright". All the evidence points to a coaching team can't take these players further. It's a natural cycle - something fresh is needed.

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/adrumm/mike-brown-showed-real-class-tending-to-luke-charteris-hideously-dislocated-finger/

I do think Brown is a bit if a Muppet but fair is fair

GavCanDance wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

100% agree. I'm sure the little darlings in the Welsh dressing room will be able to handle a bit of honesty. In any case, are we seriously expecting Gatland to "do a Borthwick" and say that Wales played well during that period? Worst case is that the players are hacked off with Gatland and come out against Italy in that first 40 minutes with something to prove. I'm sure Gatland won't mind that one bit.

I'm sure the 'little darlings' can take it, yes.  

I'm just saying it should not be public and that Gatland cannot totally distance himself from his own personal failings with regards to preparation, performance, selection and an outdated gameplan which teams like England can quite happily suffocate now.

I've already stated that proving something against Italy is proving nothing.  But I'm sure Gatland will indeed love it because it will cover up the cracks yet again.  

Are you suggesting that Gatland shouldn't be talking to the media about the match, or that he shouldn't be giving his honest opinion as to how his team performed?

I suspect he and his coaches prepared the team in much the same way as other games, only this time the players had a poor 40 minutes. It's not like Wales can't attack and score tries, just watch the last 15 minutes or the games against Scotland and France.

I think what you mean to say is that you don't like Gatland and you don't rate him. Better just to say that than trying to convolute a story from nothing simply to make that point.

Jamie Roberts was right. Brown really does like the Welsh. He's not a bad lad really.

mikey_dragon wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

offload wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:In essence there's little wrong with this welsh team and those that think otherwise are just plain foolish:

That's the attitude that results in mediocrity.  Stick your head in the sand and pretend that it's just a blip and that Wales are world champions in waiting.  Performance and results over last three years says otherwise.  

Eight years is too long for this coaching team and a change is needed to get this talented team playing to their potential.

Come on.  You have a name on the tip of your tongue.  You have a candidate in your mind.  Who is it?  Spit it out.  Who is the newly anointed saviour on the wings?

If Dai Young wins silverware at Wasps he's probably next in line. A few more years down the line hopefully we have guys like Danny Wilson and Jason Strange in the mix. Strange will probably be the next Dragons coach.

Presumably if Charlotte Church becomes a rugby coach and wins the European Cup then she'll be a candidate as well?

Wales are lucky to have Gatland. Look at his coaching record. Seriously, type his name into Wikipedia and look at the numerous trophies he's won with several different teams. He is an outstanding coach and there are few better. Wales have improved immeasureably under his tenure, and the team selected against England have plenty more miles go to. I really don't think a 4 point loss to England at Twickenham should act as a starting gun for collective hand-wringing, and nor does a lack of hand-wringing signal an acceptance of mediocrity.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Wales are lucky to have Gatland. Look at his coaching record. Seriously, type his name into Wikipedia and look at the numerous trophies he's won with several different teams. He is an outstanding coach and there are few better. Wales have improved immeasureably under his tenure, and the team selected against England have plenty more miles go to. I really don't think a 4 point loss to England at Twickenham should act as a starting gun for collective hand-wringing, and nor does a lack of hand-wringing signal an acceptance of mediocrity.

I don't think anyone is suggesting Gatland is not an outstanding coach, his record is clear. Wales have improved under his tenure too. I also agree that the current team has plenty more miles. Why does any of this mean he has to stay? Great coaches make an impact and when they stop making an impact they move on - to make an impact somewhere else. It's not just the last 4 point loss. I can see no evidence that the Welsh team has moved forward for three years. How many more years of not progressing should we go through before making a change.

I would say that Wales have been very lucky to have had Gatland for eight years. Now I want us to be lucky to have the next outstanding coach, to take us forward.

kingjohn7 wrote:http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/adrumm/mike-brown-showed-real-class-tending-to-luke-charteris-hideously-dislocated-finger/

Always told you chaps that Brown is a real sweetheart

funnyExiledScot wrote:

I think what you mean to say is that you don't like Gatland and you don't rate him. Better just to say that than trying to convolute a story from nothing simply to make that point.

I think you should stop trying to second guess my thoughts on Gatland. You are not very good at it.

only just getting round to giving my 2c:

England were very, very accurate in what they did. Eddie gave them some good instructions and they didnt over complicate things, attacked the blindside nicely and played well off the second receiver which kept the welsh defence at bay and meant they couldnt rush up as usual. This generally meant when we could rush up and chase kicks player were overzealous and on their own (Cuthbert every damn time), making it easier for the england recipitent to sidestep and make ground every time. Kicking game was good, should have scored a couple of tries in the first half and put the game to bed. Only the equality of the teams kept this game as any kind of contest.

Wales were the flipside of the coin, inaccuracy embodied. Welsh passes were lumbered, speed from the breakdown was poor, repeatedly bad kicking and players taking poor choices. You can only put this down to English pressure and tenacity to keep it up.

However, and this is where I temper my initial view of the English destruction of the Welsh team. This ended as a 4 point game with England down to 14 men.

I thought Wales were very unlucky at the breakdown on a number of occasions, players not rolling away was called within half-seconds at times, ok they should have learned by 50/60 minutes but by the last of the calls even the commentators were bemused by the officiating.

We are all talking about the best english team display since beating New Zealand, and yet, they beat Wales, at home, by 4, outscored 3 tries to 1. Even with the domination, Wales still could have won.

There's nothing between the 2 squads of 23 realisitcally and on any given day I'd expect the odds to be about even, congratualtions to England this time, surely you can now go on and win the grandslam, its been a long time coming and its quite nice to see your team and management not be perennial nice guys coming 2nd when it matters. Good luck for next week, not getting the grandslam would be car crash, and not what you deserve after this tournament!

offload wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Wales are lucky to have Gatland. Look at his coaching record. Seriously, type his name into Wikipedia and look at the numerous trophies he's won with several different teams. He is an outstanding coach and there are few better. Wales have improved immeasureably under his tenure, and the team selected against England have plenty more miles go to. I really don't think a 4 point loss to England at Twickenham should act as a starting gun for collective hand-wringing, and nor does a lack of hand-wringing signal an acceptance of mediocrity.

I don't think anyone is suggesting Gatland is not an outstanding coach, his record is clear.  Wales have improved under his tenure too.  I also agree that the current team has plenty more miles.  Why does any of this mean he has to stay?  Great coaches make an impact and when they stop making an impact they move on - to make an impact somewhere else.  It's not just the last 4 point loss.  I can see no evidence that the Welsh team has moved forward for three years.  How many more years of not progressing should we go through before making a change.

I would say that Wales have been very lucky to have had Gatland for eight years.  Now I want us to be lucky to have the next outstanding coach, to take us forward.  

Whilst I disagree with the conclusion, this is a well constructed argument and a perfectly valid opinion. Who would be better? Very few coaches have a track record remotely comparable to Gatland, so I suppose you'd be looking for a coach associated with a particular playing style allied to the sort of rugby you want Wales to be playing which differs from the current approach. That of course rules out any of the current Welsh coaches, and whilst I rate Dai Young highly he has the dubious distinction of not having won anything. Maybe that isn't important if it's a certain style of play you're looking for, but it's certainly a big gamble. In terms of foreign coaches I would have said Eddie Jones, but he's obviously gone now. I always respected Steve Meehan previously as an innovative backs coach but he's off the radar these days I think.

Wayne Smith?

GavCanDance wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

I think what you mean to say is that you don't like Gatland and you don't rate him. Better just to say that than trying to convolute a story from nothing simply to make that point.

I think you should stop trying to second guess my thoughts on Gatland.  You are not very good at it.  

Not knowing your mind I'm afraid I can only judge you on what you actually write.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Whilst I rate Dai Young highly he has the dubious distinction of not having won anything.

The Blues won the old Amlin Cup under Dai Young.

Comfort wrote:

We are all talking about the best english team display since beating New Zealand, and yet, they beat Wales, at home, by 4, outscored 3 tries to 1. Even with the domination, Wales still could have won.

I agree we have to reign in that thought. it was a decent performance at times, but it was a million miles off that NZ performance and I would suggest we have seen better performances since that Kiwi game. Whilst some things worked well, We have a number of areas that were not up to scratch and wales weren't at their best either - yet it was squeaky bum time in the last 10 mins....when a "great performance" would not have been like that.

But we won and that was key!

In the grand scheme of things I would put the 3 tries Wales scored in the file marked "Consolation tries".

nobbled wrote:Either England played well for 50-60 minutes or Wales played badly for 50-60 minutes, or both.
The turnaround definitely came after Youngs terrible pass led to Fords kick being charged down.
Why did England go to pieces thereafter? Was it the subsequent change in personnel - taking Farrell out of the 12 slot for Manu? Was it simply Wales remembered they know how to beat England?
What do other people think? I didn't think about it at the time. I was too busy praying for the clock to show 80 minutes.
Whatever the reason I hope EJ is doing something about it.

Could some one explain to me what was wrong with youngs pass in that instance? The pass looked fine to me and ford was stood too far away and not deep enough to kick making it easy for the Welsh defence to charge down the kick

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Whilst I rate Dai Young highly he has the dubious distinction of not having won anything.

The Blues won the old Amlin Cup under Dai Young.

I stand corrected! Warren Gatland step aside!

funnyExiledScot wrote:

offload wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Wales are lucky to have Gatland. Look at his coaching record. Seriously, type his name into Wikipedia and look at the numerous trophies he's won with several different teams. He is an outstanding coach and there are few better. Wales have improved immeasureably under his tenure, and the team selected against England have plenty more miles go to. I really don't think a 4 point loss to England at Twickenham should act as a starting gun for collective hand-wringing, and nor does a lack of hand-wringing signal an acceptance of mediocrity.

I don't think anyone is suggesting Gatland is not an outstanding coach, his record is clear.  Wales have improved under his tenure too.  I also agree that the current team has plenty more miles.  Why does any of this mean he has to stay?  Great coaches make an impact and when they stop making an impact they move on - to make an impact somewhere else.  It's not just the last 4 point loss.  I can see no evidence that the Welsh team has moved forward for three years.  How many more years of not progressing should we go through before making a change.

I would say that Wales have been very lucky to have had Gatland for eight years.  Now I want us to be lucky to have the next outstanding coach, to take us forward.  

Whilst I disagree with the conclusion, this is a well constructed argument and a perfectly valid opinion. Who would be better? Very few coaches have a track record remotely comparable to Gatland, so I suppose you'd be looking for a coach associated with a particular playing style allied to the sort of rugby you want Wales to be playing which differs from the current approach. That of course rules out any of the current Welsh coaches, and whilst I rate Dai Young highly he has the dubious distinction of not having won anything. Maybe that isn't important if it's a certain style of play you're looking for, but it's certainly a big gamble. In terms of foreign coaches I would have said Eddie Jones, but he's obviously gone now. I always respected Steve Meehan previously as an innovative backs coach but he's off the radar these days I think.

Wayne Smith?

Honestly don't know who I'd pick, I've given myself the home work assignment. Young might be a contender as he's developed into a first class coach (served a ridiculously long apprenticeship with the Blues) but as you say, he's won nothing. I do wish Cheika was available.

By the way, having crunched the numbers using the IRB method, any win against France will be enough for England to go 4th in the rankings, regardless of what Wales do.

The problem for Wales is that they are so far above Italy that they earn almost nothing for even a big win, whereas England are close enough to France once France's home advantage is factored in that they get almost a full point for a win.

That could add a bit of spice to the end of season warm up game.

That would be fitting. Wales haven't played like the fourth best side in the world.

SecretFly wrote:Jack, International isn't club.  It isn't..at any level.  Club can often look much more slick and defined because at club there are more games with more space available to let confidence shine and moves stick.

So, I'd discount the Jamie+JD point personally.  England at Twickenham wasn't club.

On the kicking badly to brilliant counter-attacking sides.... well, yes, that can often look foolish.... but so too can trying to run everything out and either getting isolated and turned over or having a bunch of mates to help you and still get turned over.  Sometimes the opposition have two good weapons to make any decision the wrong one.  England are such a team right now.  They've got good systems in all areas.  It'll be an effort regardless of whether you kick or try to move forward through phases.

My point on Jamie/JD is this.Both J and JD have played and play for clubs where quality back play is a feature of their clubs style and pattern of play often with other equally distinguished international backs.Are we saying that J and JD stand around the Vale training paddock telling Howley there's nothing they can contribute to 'moves' because they can bring nothing from their club experiences.Surely not!!! It would be beyond belief if Howley felt they had nothing to offer beyond his own input!!!
On the kicking Wales are meant to have a kicking coach.Why then in executing Warrenball is our kicking so poor that we inevitably give the opposition a 15-20 metre attack zone to generate momentum.The back three of England are impressive but they are not in the same class as Smith/Barrett,Savea and Milner Skudder.When you add to this the apparent nonchalance of our restarts and kickoffs you wonder what kicking practice entails.

Assuming England win against France, it seems only fitting that they go to 4th place as confirmation that they are the best of the NH. I don't think anyone can really dispute that, regardless of the World Cup.

RubyGuby wrote:

exile jack wrote:Majesticimperialman/Offload,thanks for your replies.Although I don't take WOL Rugby as an infallible source of opinion on welsh rugby there's a good article today by Delme Parfitt on 5 issues needing to be addressed by Gats and the world class coaching team.I read somewhere else today that people who doubt the bona fides of the Welsh team are foolish so foolishly I highlight just three examples of coaching inadequacy by Wales on Saturday-the pairing of AWJ and Bradley D against Kruis and Itoje effectively losing us the lineout from the start;the inability to get Jamie and JD to play as they do for their club sides,and the decision to kick(badly) to one of the best back threes in Europe.

Jack - I'm saying it is foolish for anyone to consider this team a spent force - as for your concerns, Charteris would have been paired with AWJ if he had not been coming back from injury - As for the next 2 you might want to read my suggestion that we need a world class backs coach and a change in emphasis about taking the game to the oppo from the beginning and expressing ourselves much like England did in the first 50. We seem to play as if we are shackled and that mind set has to alter. It may produce some gaps elsewhere but this style will now only ensure that we fail to get close to the top 3.

Ruby,i'd be hard pressed to disagree with you if Saturday was a one off.But it's not.Other than the games i've already mentioned we failed to get past the 1/4s in the WC failing to score against a 13 man Australia and close out the final 10 minutes against SA.I have no difficulty with Warrenball and i've said that signing Gatland was inspired.But are current coaching arrangements getting the best out of a golden generation(and that coming along).I think not.That's why I gave 3 examples.I've already replied to Secretfly on 2 of the 3 leaving just the locks issue.

Any review of the Aviva this season will readily show that Kruis and Itoje are serious athletes and excellent lineout operators.We pick AWJ and Davies.There's a big difference between the responsibility for calling a lineout and being the nominated jumper for that call.AWJ is not a lineout jumper in the mould of POC or Matfield which puts some pressure on the other lock chosen.Davies is not a primary lineout operator for Wasps so picking those 2 gave us 2 problems-Kruis could stay mid lineout confident he could outjump BD and AWJ and Itoje could move up and down the line to jump against Faletau(who in the absence of Tipuric) was the likely jumper.The problems were then compounded by Baldwin not throwing short to guarantee some lineout ball.Player intelligence or poor forwards selection and coaching?

I fear consistent Top 3 ranking may be a receding dream.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

offload wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Wales are lucky to have Gatland. Look at his coaching record. Seriously, type his name into Wikipedia and look at the numerous trophies he's won with several different teams. He is an outstanding coach and there are few better. Wales have improved immeasureably under his tenure, and the team selected against England have plenty more miles go to. I really don't think a 4 point loss to England at Twickenham should act as a starting gun for collective hand-wringing, and nor does a lack of hand-wringing signal an acceptance of mediocrity.

I don't think anyone is suggesting Gatland is not an outstanding coach, his record is clear.  Wales have improved under his tenure too.  I also agree that the current team has plenty more miles.  Why does any of this mean he has to stay?  Great coaches make an impact and when they stop making an impact they move on - to make an impact somewhere else.  It's not just the last 4 point loss.  I can see no evidence that the Welsh team has moved forward for three years.  How many more years of not progressing should we go through before making a change.

I would say that Wales have been very lucky to have had Gatland for eight years.  Now I want us to be lucky to have the next outstanding coach, to take us forward.  

Whilst I disagree with the conclusion, this is a well constructed argument and a perfectly valid opinion. Who would be better? Very few coaches have a track record remotely comparable to Gatland, so I suppose you'd be looking for a coach associated with a particular playing style allied to the sort of rugby you want Wales to be playing which differs from the current approach. That of course rules out any of the current Welsh coaches, and whilst I rate Dai Young highly he has the dubious distinction of not having won anything. Maybe that isn't important if it's a certain style of play you're looking for, but it's certainly a big gamble. In terms of foreign coaches I would have said Eddie Jones, but he's obviously gone now. I always respected Steve Meehan previously as an innovative backs coach but he's off the radar these days I think.

Wayne Smith?

I don't think Gatland's win percentage with Wales is anything special at all. It's 49%, versus 65% for Mike Rudddock  and 59% for Graham Henry. Furthermore Gatland has been blessed with a crop of quality players that Ruddock and Henry could only dream about.

Against the Southern Hemisphere Big 3, we are well behind Scotland, Ireland and England.

Why are we satisfied with so little?

England will go hunting Australia this summer. Was Wales just a speed bump? If England win at the weekend they will go 4th in the world. They need to get there and move on in the summer.

samuraidragon wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

offload wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Wales are lucky to have Gatland. Look at his coaching record. Seriously, type his name into Wikipedia and look at the numerous trophies he's won with several different teams. He is an outstanding coach and there are few better. Wales have improved immeasureably under his tenure, and the team selected against England have plenty more miles go to. I really don't think a 4 point loss to England at Twickenham should act as a starting gun for collective hand-wringing, and nor does a lack of hand-wringing signal an acceptance of mediocrity.

I don't think anyone is suggesting Gatland is not an outstanding coach, his record is clear.  Wales have improved under his tenure too.  I also agree that the current team has plenty more miles.  Why does any of this mean he has to stay?  Great coaches make an impact and when they stop making an impact they move on - to make an impact somewhere else.  It's not just the last 4 point loss.  I can see no evidence that the Welsh team has moved forward for three years.  How many more years of not progressing should we go through before making a change.

I would say that Wales have been very lucky to have had Gatland for eight years.  Now I want us to be lucky to have the next outstanding coach, to take us forward.  

Whilst I disagree with the conclusion, this is a well constructed argument and a perfectly valid opinion. Who would be better? Very few coaches have a track record remotely comparable to Gatland, so I suppose you'd be looking for a coach associated with a particular playing style allied to the sort of rugby you want Wales to be playing which differs from the current approach. That of course rules out any of the current Welsh coaches, and whilst I rate Dai Young highly he has the dubious distinction of not having won anything. Maybe that isn't important if it's a certain style of play you're looking for, but it's certainly a big gamble. In terms of foreign coaches I would have said Eddie Jones, but he's obviously gone now. I always respected Steve Meehan previously as an innovative backs coach but he's off the radar these days I think.

Wayne Smith?

I don't think Gatland's win percentage with Wales is anything special at all. It's 49%, versus 65% for Mike Rudddock  and 59% for Graham Henry. Furthermore Gatland has been blessed with a crop of quality players that Ruddock and Henry could only dream about.

Against the Southern Hemisphere Big 3, we are well behind Scotland, Ireland and England.

Why are we satisfied with so little?