Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

by McLaren Thu 25 Feb 2016, 11:42 am

First topic message reminder :

Super

For starters I live in a one bedroom flat. But I think you know that it should not take the people of a nation putting refugees up in their house before the government is required to do anything about it.

For example the government could easily rent 50 premier inns and put the refugees there until they can be given homes.

"Of course it matters. They have a far greater responsibility than the UK does"

So you are saying that because those countries closer to Syria have neglected their responsibilities the UK has the right to do nothing? You are saying that one country doing nothing is sufficient for another country to justify doing nothing?

bob

WTF was that?

by Mad for Chelsea Mon 06 Jun 2016, 3:56 pm

Kwini, some interesting choices there. For instance, Laver ahead of Federer, though maybe not one I'd argue too hard. The one I would fervently argue with is Spitz ahead of Phelps, who to my mind is fairly clearly the superior swimmer. A hint of nostalgia bias perhaps? Wink

Though I guess the problem with the more modern sportsmen is that it's too early to assess their long term impact if you will. One thing Phelps did certainly though was bring to the fore the importance of underwater work: his turns were so much better than the rest of the field. In time, the rest of the world responded, and nowadays a lot more importance is attached to the start and turns.

One name I feel like throwing in that you didn't mention is Eddie Merckx, who would comfortably make my top ten, and be pushing the top five.

by kwinigolfer Mon 06 Jun 2016, 4:57 pm

Hi Chelsea,

Yup, I thought about Phelps too. Just too early for final judgement, in my opinion anyway.
Not nostalgia(!), more a feeling that, if someone/thing is too good to be true, it probably is. He's been involved in anti-social behaviour so I'd wait a few years to ensure no inference of PED's.
As for Laver, I'm a massive Federer fan; just feel as if it's a little tricky to understand just how good Laver was, and what his record might have been if not for his twilight zone in the unofficial pro circuit. I give him the benefit of the doubt! Also, has Fed really separated himself from his peers as Laver clearly did?

Also agree about Eddie Merckx.

by hend085 Tue 07 Jun 2016, 9:29 am

theres always been a big cloud over Spitz too though Kwini!

by hend085 Tue 07 Jun 2016, 9:32 am

on a slight tangent.. i bumped into the Greg Louganis in a Dublin swimming pool last week. really nice guy. there was only two of us in the lane swimming pool. i only recognized him as I had watched his 30 for 30 documentary a couple of months ago.

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 07 Jun 2016, 12:29 pm

hend085 wrote:on a slight tangent.. i bumped into the Greg Louganis in a Dublin swimming pool last week. really nice guy. there was only two of us in the lane swimming pool. i only recognized him as I had watched his 30 for 30 documentary a couple of months ago.

Didn't he famously misjudge a board's position (and whack his head on it) during dives at one Olympics?

by Mad for Chelsea Tue 07 Jun 2016, 1:03 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
hend085 wrote:on a slight tangent.. i bumped into the Greg Louganis in a Dublin swimming pool last week. really nice guy. there was only two of us in the lane swimming pool. i only recognized him as I had watched his 30 for 30 documentary a couple of months ago.
Didn't he famously misjudge a board's position (and whack his head on it) during dives at one Olympics?

Here you go

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/36163657

by hend085 Tue 07 Jun 2016, 1:24 pm

yeah that's him alright. I recommend giving the the 30 for 30 a watch- its one of the better ones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OC__8O17z8

by super_realist Tue 07 Jun 2016, 2:33 pm

McLaren wrote:Kwini

"would still rate him among the top five post WWII athletes though"

I guess it would be optimistic to think Tiger is on that list?

Couldn't have a golfer in for obvious reasons, or anyone from American centric sports in my list.

by McLaren Tue 07 Jun 2016, 3:30 pm

Ok, here is my top 10, don't read anything into the order.

Tiger
Roger
Messi
Ronaldo (not the fat one)
Bolt
Jim Clarke
Jessica Ennis
Schumacher
Zidane
Valentino Rossi

by hend085 Tue 07 Jun 2016, 3:32 pm

Jim Clarke is a p1$$ take surely. while you're at it what about a few lads from the highland games?

by kwinigolfer Tue 07 Jun 2016, 3:50 pm

Who's Jim Clarke?

Or are you such a big fan you can't spell him right?
Surprised you didn't add Bruce McLaren.

by super_realist Tue 07 Jun 2016, 3:53 pm

McLaren wrote:Ok, here is my top 10, don't read anything into the order.

Tiger
Roger
Messi
Ronaldo (not the fat one)
Bolt
Jim Clarke
Jessica Ennis
Schumacher
Zidane
Valentino Rossi

JESS ENNIS. What on earth Mac? She's not done anything different to any other Olympic Heptathlete. If you are going to be a benevolent sexist, why not have Billie Jean King, Steffi Graf or Natravilova? People who have had genuinely high achieving careers which separate them from their peers, and aren't just the same as any Olympic champion.

If Ennis looked like the back end of a bus and was Russian there isn't a chance you would have included her.

by Mad for Chelsea Tue 07 Jun 2016, 4:13 pm

sticking to the post WWII theme, I might go with, in no particular order

Ali
Merckx
Jordan
Gretsky
Pele
Phelps
Maradonna
Graf
Zatopek
Lomu

Have strayed away from athletes still competing as I think it's too early to judge their legacy, so no Bolt (who may be about to lose one of his relay medals apparently), Federer, Messi or Ronaldo, etc. The exception being Phelps, since as explained in a previous post I believe we're already seeing some of his legacy in the increased attention being paid to underwater work.

Graf I'm a bit biased on, she's my favourite ever tennis player, but I don't think her inclusion is all that controversial, given what she achieved. I've also tried to go for a bit of a mix of sports, but all those have some absolutely outstanding achievements to their name, some of which (Zatopek's triple gold medal in 5 000, 10 000 and marathon, Phelps's Olympic haul, Jordan and Gretsky's scoring records, Pele's WCs, etc.) I'm not sure will ever be matched or bettered.

I've also stuck to sports that aren't equipment based, so no drivers (F1 or otherwise) essentially. While equipment is increasingly important in cycling (and I'd hesitate to consider Hoy for such a list for that reason), in Merckx's day it wasn't.

by McLaren Tue 07 Jun 2016, 4:18 pm

No, Jim Clark(e) is not a p155 take. I suggest you look him up.

Kwini

Bruce McLaren good but not compared to the greats like Clark, Prost, Schumi, Stewart, Fittipaldi, Senna, Vettel etc.

Super

I would happily swap in some of the names you provide. It was actually quite hard to decide what ten to put in. Graf especially had an incredible run.

As for Ennis I just really admire what she managed under the most intense pressure I have seen an athlete face. She was the face of a home Olympics and was just expected to win. Under those conditions she performed unbelievably well. For the same reasons I thought about adding Cathy Freeman, who may have the single greatest performance of any athlete other than Bolts Beijing wins.

by McLaren Tue 07 Jun 2016, 4:23 pm

Mad for chelsea,

Like super suggested I am starting to think Graf would be included in my second draft.

If you are going to include cyclists then why not Armstrong or Indurain? They all used PED's (Merckxx included) so may as well include those that played the system the most successfully.

by super_realist Tue 07 Jun 2016, 4:26 pm

McLaren wrote:No, Jim Clark(e) is not a p155 take. I suggest you look him up.

Kwini

Bruce McLaren good but not compared to the greats like Clark, Prost, Schumi, Stewart, Fittipaldi, Senna, Vettel etc.

Super

I would happily swap in some of the names you provide. It was actually quite hard to decide what ten to put in. Graf especially had an incredible run.

As for Ennis I just really admire what she managed under the most intense pressure I have seen an athlete face. She was the face of a home Olympics and was just expected to win. Under those conditions she performed unbelievably well. For the same reasons I thought about adding Cathy Freeman, who may have the single greatest performance of any athlete other than Bolts Beijing wins.

How was she under "intense pressure" and how is that any more than you'd expect others to be under? She was almost nailed on for it.

How little sport have you seen if you think that Cathy Freeman is the greatest single performance other than Bolt? Is your imagination that short and unimaginative?

by Mad for Chelsea Tue 07 Jun 2016, 4:28 pm

Merckx's achievements go well above what Armstrong and particularly Indurain managed Mac. Merckx won all three GTs, including five each of the Tour and the Giro. He also won all three jerseys (sprinters, climbers and general classification) in both the Tour and the Giro, in the same race!!!

Doping in Merckx's day was also a long long way off the sort of organised PED use we saw Armstrong engage in. And his efforts in destroying the lives of the few who were brave enough to speak out against him leaves a rather bad taste.

by Mad for Chelsea Tue 07 Jun 2016, 4:32 pm

super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:No, Jim Clark(e) is not a p155 take. I suggest you look him up.

Kwini

Bruce McLaren good but not compared to the greats like Clark, Prost, Schumi, Stewart, Fittipaldi, Senna, Vettel etc.

Super

I would happily swap in some of the names you provide. It was actually quite hard to decide what ten to put in. Graf especially had an incredible run.

As for Ennis I just really admire what she managed under the most intense pressure I have seen an athlete face. She was the face of a home Olympics and was just expected to win. Under those conditions she performed unbelievably well. For the same reasons I thought about adding Cathy Freeman, who may have the single greatest performance of any athlete other than Bolts Beijing wins.

How was she under "intense pressure" and how is that any more than you'd expect others to be under? She was almost nailed on for it.

How little sport have you seen if you think that Cathy Freeman is the greatest single performance other than Bolt? Is your imagination that short and unimaginative?

Much as I agree with you on this, let's not re-write history. A year before the Olympics, Ennis was beaten in the World Championships by the Russian Chernova, whose score in those championships was higher than anything Ennis had ever amassed. The Ukrainian Dobrynska had also beaten Ennis in the indoor Pentathlon champs, the closest the athletes got to a build-up competitive event, with a World Record.

Under the biggest pressure of the Olympics though (and let's not forget these were Ennis's first Olympics also, having missed out because of injury in 2008), Ennis produced her best ever score, while her competitors rather crumbled. Ennis was one of the three big favourites certainly, but to claim she was "almost nailed on for it" is misleading.

by McLaren Tue 07 Jun 2016, 4:37 pm

Super

If it is me that is so lacking in imagine then why didn't you provide a few better examples instead of simply stating I am wrong in thinking that about Cathy Freeman.

MFC

Doesn't the organized nature of doping in Lances era make it more fair. As far as I can tell they were all on it, so it was a level playing filed. The less evenly distributed doping program of Merckxx's day probably meant that as a successful rider he was on the best doping program compared to the less well off teams.

At least in the last 20 or so years it seems all the riders had access to whatever they wanted, but the variable was how long it was until you got caught and not how well doped you were.

by kwinigolfer Tue 07 Jun 2016, 4:47 pm

Good list there Chelsea! Surprised you didn't pick Sobers . . . . .

My list of best sportsmen I've seen in person would include:
Pele, Gretzky, Sobers, Moore, Nicklaus, Whoever we determine is the best of Rafa/Novak/Roger (I'd choose Federer at the moment), Gareth Edwards (partly symbolic there) and Piggott . . . . . plus I actually saw Jim Clark win the German GP @ Nurburgring but can't include him!

by McLaren Tue 07 Jun 2016, 4:51 pm

"I actually saw Jim Clark win the German GP @ Nurburgring but can't include him"

Amazing on two accounts. Do tell more?

by super_realist Tue 07 Jun 2016, 5:09 pm

McLaren wrote:Super

If it is me that is so lacking in imagine then why didn't you provide a few better examples instead of simply stating I am wrong in thinking that about Cathy Freeman.

How about Ivanisevic winning his only Grand Slam as a wildcard, a guy who had fallen so far down the rankings that he couldn't get in.
How about Michael Johnson 200 and 400 metre gold at 1996 Atlanta including a world record.
How about Novak Djokovic holding all 4 Grand Slams at the same time?
How about Kelly Holmes double gold?
How about Mo Farah's double gold?
How about David Rudisha's 400m gold easily better than Freemans.
How about Michael Phelps numerous untouchable performances?

Seems you go for symbolism and benevolent sexism in order to make yourself look right on and egalitarian.

by McLaren Tue 07 Jun 2016, 5:17 pm

All equally great performances, but if they are all about the same then doesn't it come down to personal taste. Something about Ennis's performance appealed to me while Mo's didn't.

Again, could happily swap in Holmes or Johnson to my list but had to leave some people out.

by kwinigolfer Tue 07 Jun 2016, 5:30 pm

Mac,
My parents lived in Germany when I was a teenager and I went with some friends down to N'ring for the '65 GP. Only motor race I've ever been to.
Clark won, but can't remember anything about it except weather was carp, visibility poor. Not impressed!

by super_realist Tue 07 Jun 2016, 5:31 pm

Fine, but please don't state something as being "the greatest" but not explain why it's great, seems you just picked something because of the symbology attached to it. My examples were not just "the same" most of them at least doubled Ennis or Freemans achievement.

I sincerely doubt you would have picked Freeman had it not been for the aboriginal roots and that preposterous suit she wore to give herself more attention.

If she was a blonde, white Australian in normal singlet, doubt you'd even remember who she was, because the performance was no more amazing than a hundred other gold medal performances for any given year that you wouldn't remember, so I think your judgement is clouded by your subconscious SJW agenda and willingness to appear inclusive and right on

by McLaren Tue 07 Jun 2016, 6:00 pm

Kwini

Pretty cool that you went to THE track in the most iconic F1 era.

It always rains when I go to f1 events.

super

No, didn't list them for any of the reasons you list above. Try again.

by super_realist Tue 07 Jun 2016, 6:56 pm

So, if Freeman was a white blonde, Australian, or the Australian Sally Gunnel for instance, hadn't worn an attention seeking suit, hadn't undergone "persecution" from various sources, you'd still have thought it "the greatest performance"? Pull the other one.

You always appeal to a perceived social injustice with every thing you ever campaign for. Why would this be any different?

by beninho Tue 07 Jun 2016, 9:19 pm

Since when did Farage not become the joke candidate like screaming Lord Sutch. And since when did this country have open borders. We don't!

by JAS Wed 08 Jun 2016, 7:30 am

Kind of late to the debate but my list would look something like
Ali, Pele, Maradona, Mercx, Laver, Federer, Graf, Navratilova, Bolt, Coe, Zatopek, Nicklaus, Slater.

I've gone for people who dominated their sport over a period of time and that I know about i.e.have seen/read about and in sports I'm interested in (hence I'm missing people like Jordan, Gretzky etc). In a few years time maybe the likes of Messi, Ronaldo, Farrah & Djoko could be added.

by McLaren Wed 08 Jun 2016, 9:21 am

Jas

Why no Tiger?

by JAS Wed 08 Jun 2016, 9:40 am

McLaren wrote:Jas

Why no Tiger?

He was close and if he's not finished yet he might still make it. Yes he did dominate for a decent period but if I'm only putting in one token golfer because I'm a golfer I would still say Nicklaus (despite his Drumph endorsement) purely on the length of time he was competitive, his Major haul as well as his overall Major record.

by McLaren Wed 08 Jun 2016, 9:44 am

What about average SOF that Tiger beat compared to Jack?

by beninho Wed 08 Jun 2016, 9:59 am

My Top sportsmen:

Zidane, Lara, Bolt, Michael Johnson, Senna.

by JAS Wed 08 Jun 2016, 10:03 am

McLaren wrote:What about average SOF that Tiger beat compared to Jack?

What about it? I've offered who I would consider to be in my list, I've offered an explanation why I would put Jack ahead of Tiger. It's MY opinion, it's different from yours...shock horror that happens sometimes.

by McLaren Wed 08 Jun 2016, 10:55 am

Jas

Just wondered if you were aware of the disparity in the strength of fields Tiger beat compared to Jack and whether or not this could alter how you feel about Tiger.

In general it is a little odd that on a golf board no one (other than me) seems to rate Tiger as one of the greatest sportspeople. I wonder if he gets more love from fans of other sports?

Ben

Again no Tiger, how close did he come to getting onto your list?

by super_realist Wed 08 Jun 2016, 11:06 am

9C and Nicklaus are successful in a non sport. If you have them in, you need Phil Taylor and Stephen Hendry in too.

If you want to know why golfers don't rate 9C as the best Mac, it's because his career has dropped off the end of a cliff (like I wish he would). He had the opportunity to undisputedly be the best golfer, but he blew it because he doesn't have a brain in his head. Presumably your SJW mode believes it is because he is not white.

by beninho Wed 08 Jun 2016, 11:16 am

Tiger is undoubtedly a great at his sport and has done a hell of a lot for golf. I just feel that Bolt is the greatest and purest athlete/sportsmen ever, with MJ not far behind. Zidane is the greatest footballer I have ever seen, and Lara the Greatest Cricketer, both sports I put above golf.

by McLaren Wed 08 Jun 2016, 11:24 am

Super

By almost all accounts Tiger is/was really smart. Very good grades in school and would have done well in Uni if he had finished the course. I agree the SEAL thing was totally bizarre but not sure it had anything to do with his general intelligence.

by McLaren Wed 08 Jun 2016, 11:31 am

Ben

Fair enough.

by super_realist Wed 08 Jun 2016, 12:48 pm

McLaren wrote:Super

By almost all accounts Tiger is/was really smart. Very good grades in school and would have done well in Uni if he had finished the course. I agree the SEAL thing was totally bizarre but not sure it had anything to do with his general intelligence.

Mac, I'm sure you are aware that you can be academically bright, but as thick as two short planks when it comes to common sense.
9C is undoubtedly dim as he lacks humour, spontaneity, ability to answer questions which haven't previously been vetted by him, doesn't take care of his body, over trains, swings like a madman, doesn't get course management and has a massive ego problem.
Basically, he's probably got a bit of a psychopath/sociopath problem which has curtailed his career to such a level that it looks unlikely he'll return. Thank goodness.
This lack of a continued and consistent career is a good enough reason to think he's not the best ever.

by McLaren Wed 08 Jun 2016, 5:35 pm

I find it's the people who aren't all that bright that would like to think academically intelligent people lack "common sense", whatever that is.

by kwinigolfer Wed 08 Jun 2016, 5:48 pm

Shocked at Shazza's two-year suspension.
Would think it's sure to be reduced on appeal, but that doesn't help her that much, not at her age.
Would have thought a 6-month ban plus a lifetime ban suspended might have been more appropriate.
She chose the wrong sport. Or nationality.

by sirbenson Wed 08 Jun 2016, 6:07 pm

Thought Maria was going to get a 6 month ban! Did you read the ITF report Kwini?

by super_realist Wed 08 Jun 2016, 6:24 pm

McLaren wrote:I find it's the people who aren't all that bright that would like to think academically intelligent people lack "common sense", whatever that is.

It's actually very common indeed that very academic people are poor in common sense elements, not that 9C is "academic" by definition. Considering that I'm least as academic as you are, with a proper professional job, then you are putting yourself in the same company as me if you are inferring that I am not intelligent.

by kwinigolfer Wed 08 Jun 2016, 6:31 pm

No sirb! Just read the extracts quoted on the Beeb, which hardly seem to condemn her for doing anything willfully.
(Must admit, I find the application of most ped rules by sports administrators to be duplicitous, Vijay's ongoing saga another case in point.)

by JAS Wed 08 Jun 2016, 6:54 pm

Hey Mac, Barra and other Edinburgh locals, guess where I'm having an interview tomorrow? If I get it I'll expect an early tour of the Braids Mac :-p

by Nay Wed 08 Jun 2016, 7:11 pm

Good Luck for your i interview Jas

by McLaren Wed 08 Jun 2016, 7:15 pm

JAS wrote:Hey Mac, Barra and other Edinburgh locals, guess where I'm having an interview tomorrow? If I get it I'll expect an early tour of the Braids Mac :-p

Good luck JAS. Not been on the Briads for a while but hopefully still a great track.

by pedro Wed 08 Jun 2016, 8:47 pm

To be considered a "great" you, in my book, must be retired, have competed in a sport that has a reasonable global exposure, appeal and participation, not bound by a common cultural or historical background, just as you must have been exposed to international competition, and dominated, for a longer period of time.
This disqualifies most American professional sports, including pre-90s NBA and NHL players, cricket, snooker and rubgy.

My list would therefore look something like:
Borg
Navratilova
Graf
Ali
Tyson
Pele
Maradona
Zidane
Nicklaus
Tiger (if we consider him retired)
M.Johnson
The cleaner of Mercx, Indurain and Armstrong

by super_realist Thu 09 Jun 2016, 8:39 am

pedro wrote:To be considered a "great" you, in my book, must be retired, have competed in a sport that has a reasonable global exposure, appeal and participation, not bound by a common cultural or historical background, just as you must have been exposed to international competition, and dominated, for a longer period of time.
This disqualifies most American professional sports, including pre-90s NBA and NHL players, cricket, snooker and rubgy.

My list would therefore look something like:
Borg
Navratilova
Graf
Ali
Tyson
Pele
Maradona
Zidane
Nicklaus
Tiger (if we consider him retired)
M.Johnson
The cleaner of Mercx, Indurain and Armstrong

I think your criteria is spot on, but I'll add that it also needs a level of physical exertion, to which golf doesn't qualify for me.

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