Eddie's England squad for summer

First topic message reminder :

Hello you lovely lot.

I've very much enjoyed your posts over this six nations. Great stuff.

I don't post much as I'm a bit of a novice (well a lot of really) but I'm always intrigued by your far more experienced wisdom. So:

The summer will bring a chance for Eddie to put more of his stamp on the team; who do you think stays the same and who changes? And who, if any, so you think might be bolters? (I know it's an oxymoron asking about bolters this early, but I'm going to do it anyway)

Clifford is perfectly capable of making himself a nuisance at the breakdown....what he offers in addition to that over the likes of Kvesic is pace, eye for a break, and a good fend and offload. He's building a squad that can compete with the SH, and just being a nuisance at the breakdown isn't enough.

Harrison has the pace and physicality that I've never seen from Kvesic...he looks a class act.

Harrison appears to have put on a bit of weight this year without losing any of his pace. Doesn't always look for contact, as Saturday showed, he runs into the weak shoulder and more often than not breaks through, 100m plus of hard yards in any game is good going.

Only managed to see the first half of the Saints game but Harrison looked excellent. Got the other half recorded so need to watch the rest, but I'm really impressed with him so far.

mid_gen- happy to be corrected but at the moment I'm wanting to see more from Clifford. If I were to watch both Clifford's and Harrison's weekend performances and have to pick the international without knowing, I would have chosen Harrison. Same exercise with Clifford and Kvesic's Friday night performance, I'd have taken Kvesic.

Not to knock Clifford- I think he's a very good player, but at the moment I think he could be one of the 5 guys mentioned by EJ as playing themselves off the plane to Oz.

Two reasons Clifford doesn't have great turnover stats this season are that he's played across the back row and has been part of a Quins back row where turnover duties have been shared between him, Wallace and Robshaw.

He can get turnovers, though. In last year's Baabaa's game, one on one against George Smith, he got two. OK, so it's a non-cap game, but the Barbarians had played very well the week before and Smith isn't the sort of player to play with less than full intensity.

The other point is simply that Eddie doesn't prioritise turnovers as much as this board and media pundits do. Haskell is not a turnover machine but was disruptive enough to let Gustard's defensive system work. Clifford is very capable of doing that job, and until the last couple of weeks I'd have said he'd make fewer mistakes than Haskell, but he's suffering brain fade at the moment.

If you look at the other roles of a 7 - as tackler and link-man, Clifford's speed, vision and hands (having grown up playing centre) set him apart from most of his competition.

Anyone else catch the Blues/Ospreys game at the weekend? All the pundit fuss was about James King but it was noticeable that the Ospreys' resurgence started when Sam Underhill came on.

We aren't losing to SH teams because we don't have an 'out and out fetcher 7' as is fashionable to focus on. We lose because we can't score tries...EJ is picking players that can win games, not just cling on and try not to lose them. Itoje and Clifford are both in that mould, fast, good hands, good vision, good breakdown technique, eye for a gap and a good fend/offload.

Itoje obviously has shone for England, but Clifford hasn't had a start yet, just a few bench appearances.

Not sure in the recent past we're struggled that much in scoring tries. There's been a few occasions where we really should have taken the win against SA early in the Lancaster period, further closer results against NZ (that they always win lets face it) and the continuation of 50 50 games against Aus.

mid_gen wrote:We aren't losing to SH teams because we don't have an 'out and out fetcher 7' as is fashionable to focus on. We lose because we can't score tries...EJ is picking players that can win games, not just cling on and try not to lose them. Itoje and Clifford are both in that mould, fast, good hands, good vision, good breakdown technique, eye for a gap and a good fend/offload.

Itoje obviously has shone for England, but Clifford hasn't had a start yet, just a few bench appearances.

We haven't played a SH team yet with EJ in charge, so we can't say that scoring tries is the issue either. We lost to Australia in the WC because they had a fetcher who we couldn't control, and we didn't have one. Admittedly yes, we absolutely don't need a specialist 7 to win (as shown in the 6N), but it is great to have the option of one. Personally (and because I play 7), it's an area of interest for me and I would very much like to have one in our squad.

It looks more like Eddie wants to blast the breakdown with power rather than a specific breakdown 7. That's probably why Kvesic is seemingly not rated.

I agree with Poorfour and Mid gen, that following that, Jones wants players who offer more. Clifford falls into that category as does Harrison.  they can do the grunt and bring power to the breakdown but also offer big carrying games etc. Maybe more than Kvesic does.

It'll be interesting to watch this battle and selection as Robshaw and haskell won't want to give up their spots easily.

Well if there was any doubt about Underhills allegiances this should put them to bed once and for all.

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/underhill-i-want-to-play-for-england/

bluestonevedder wrote:

mid_gen wrote:We aren't losing to SH teams because we don't have an 'out and out fetcher 7' as is fashionable to focus on. We lose because we can't score tries...EJ is picking players that can win games, not just cling on and try not to lose them. Itoje and Clifford are both in that mould, fast, good hands, good vision, good breakdown technique, eye for a gap and a good fend/offload.

Itoje obviously has shone for England, but Clifford hasn't had a start yet, just a few bench appearances.

We haven't played a SH team yet with EJ in charge, so we can't say that scoring tries is the issue either. We lost to Australia in the WC because they had a fetcher who we couldn't control, and we didn't have one. Admittedly yes, we absolutely don't need a specialist 7 to win (as shown in the 6N), but it is great to have the option of one. Personally (and because I play 7), it's an area of interest for me and I would very much like to have one in our squad.

The argument and EJ's thinking (it seems) is that everyone in the pack should be a fetcher, and there's no room for a one-trick pony if they don't have the physicality and skills required to contribute around the park.

I suspect that while he knew Robshaw and Haskell were the combination to win a 6N full of teams that play a dumb, straight to contact power game....we'll see a shakeup for AUS to bring the quick and skillful players to the fore. The back row needs to have the speed and handling to punch through the line in the tight exchanges and make the offload to the fast supporting runners. They also need to have to pace to deal with the Australian players who will be attacking and going through any gaps.

Thing about Robshaw and Haskell is that I don't thionk Robshaw has any shortage of skill and Haskell has actually gone down and played in NZ. They are not mugs (even Haskell). I am sure EJ has a plan and those 2 are not going to be there for ever (or even very long) but they are not going to give up their places easily.

No that's true Robshaw has great hands and frequently plays in the receiver for us. I think he is going to be eclipsed by Clifford over time though who is *much* quicker (as quick as most backs) and has a better fend and offload.

I do feel like in the 6N him and Haskell were both just used to nullify the opposition's power game. Right tool for the job. Pretty sure we'll see an adjustment in style and corresponding personnel for the Aus tour.

Will be interesting to see which direction Jones goes in over the summer. Whether he'll do the traditional thing of keeping it tight, more open or Lancasters last version of trying to keep it tight using all the wrong players for the game plan!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well if there was any doubt about Underhills allegiances this should put them to bed once and for all.

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/underhill-i-want-to-play-for-england/

It might also put to bed the chances of him being selected for the Aus tour or the Saxons though given that he's adamant his intentions are to complete his degree and honour his contract with Ospreys whilst doing so. Both the degree and the contract run for 2 more years after this and during that time he wouldn't be playing in England so unavailable for selection.

Personally I've got a lot of respect if he has made that decision knowing it might rule him out (Eddie might have told him otherwise of course). It's refreshing to see a young bloke with that talent staying grounded enough to want to complete his time studying. He also clearly respects that Ospreys have been fantastic for his development with how they've given him good game time but not an excessive amount for a guy who's fresh to senior rugby.

Well they could use the special circumstance claus...as strictly speaking he is only in Wales due to university....he didn't opt to move to play for the Ospreys. It would be a valid argument.

Also...does that rule apply for the Saxons. I thought that is more lenient...and would seem a more sensible option...give him a run out down in South Africa....

The "exceptional circumstances" clause is - essentially - whatever the RFU can agree with the PRL. That is, I don't think the clause has a definition of what those circumstances are, but they can't afford a falling out with the PRL, especially with the new EPS arrangement still on the table.

The PRL would have kicked up a fuss had Armitage been picked, because it would signal that other England players could up sticks to France. They could still kick up a fuss over Underhill - but might be less likely to given why he is in Wales (study) and how young he is. However, they are likely to want it made clear that it won't set a precedent.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36209209

Hartley's back in full training and it sounds like he will be in the Saints squad against Gloucs. Guys coming back to fitness at the very end of the club season then being rushed back for a Summer tour rarely ends well so I hope that his game time is controlled sensibly. With George injured he will likely start all 3 tests though which feels like asking for trouble.

Whilst the Wales fixture on the same weekend as the Prem final is a pointless addition to an overcrowded season it does offer an opportunity to get him some more game time before the tour.

With Sarries, Chiefs, Wasps and Tigers competing the semi-finals the week before I'd guess that potential starters against Aus from the losing semi-finalists will be rested. Fringe players from those sides might get given a shot though. I hope that guys who have played absurd amounts of rugby over the last year get a rest for that game as well even if they're available - Robshaw and Brown spring to mind there.

At International level, don't most tries come from turn overs in the modern game? Hence the big reliance on fetchers as they have you the opportunity to run against a broken field?

I'd love to see what England could do with a player who's great on the deck, in a season or two we could have that. Especially as Itoje and Hughes are both good there as well.

Oh and as we know the play off teams I'd play this side against Wales:

Hill
Hartley
Brookes
Lawes
Garvey
Robshaw
Kvesic
Harrison
Care
Cipriani
Watson
Devoto
Joseph
Yarde
Brown

Ward, Waller, Synckler, ?, Clifford, Dickson, Ford, the Sale fb

I was a little stuck at lock tbh

Hill is a TH Yappy

Is the game against Wales a capped match? And does the team have to come from the EPS and Saxons squads or is there a bit more wiggle?

Poorfour wrote:The "exceptional circumstances" clause is - essentially - whatever the RFU can agree with the PRL. That is, I don't think the clause has a definition of what those circumstances are, but they can't afford a falling out with the PRL, especially with the new EPS arrangement still on the table.

The PRL would have kicked up a fuss had Armitage been picked, because it would signal that other England players could up sticks to France. They could still kick up a fuss over Underhill - but might be less likely to given why he is in Wales (study) and how young he is. However, they are likely to want it made clear that it won't set a precedent.

What would be interesting is if the PRL granted "exceptional circumstances" to tie Underhill to England, and then later revoked them. That way, he'd get a Saxons cap, but have to move to the Premiership and a PRL club to resume his England career after his studies.

king_carlos wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36209209

Hartley's back in full training and it sounds like he will be in the Saints squad against Gloucs. Guys coming back to fitness at the very end of the club season then being rushed back for a Summer tour rarely ends well so I hope that his game time is controlled sensibly. With George injured he will likely start all 3 tests though which feels like asking for trouble.

Whilst the Wales fixture on the same weekend as the Prem final is a pointless addition to an overcrowded season it does offer an opportunity to get him some more game time before the tour.

With Sarries, Chiefs, Wasps and Tigers competing the semi-finals the week before I'd guess that potential starters against Aus from the losing semi-finalists will be rested. Fringe players from those sides might get given a shot though. I hope that guys who have played absurd amounts of rugby over the last year get a rest for that game as well even if they're available - Robshaw and Brown spring to mind there.

From a commercial perspective, having the England captain playing wouldn't be a bad idea either. Maybe give him 50 minutes and Taylor a good half an hour.

I'm sure there is some agreement with WRU about the strength of teams to select, but I'd like to see quite a strong team selected. It's over a month between the last Premiership game and the first Australia game, and we don't want to go in rusty.

propdavid_london wrote:Is the game against Wales a capped match?  And does the team have to come from the EPS and Saxons squads or is there a bit more wiggle?

Capped, although I believe there will be a bit of wiggle room given the constraints of the Premiership final on the same weekend.

Cheers Robbo,
So, possibly a Chiefs v Sarries final. Still gives a lot of options for selection. Depends on how EJ wants to use the game....entirely development or giving a last chance to players on fringe of tour selection..
Going on what he has said about the Saxons tour being mostly developmental I think this could be a good trial game for the fringes.

If we get a good mix it could be something like this -
Marler (needs time after absence) or Mullan (fringe)
Hartley (needs gametime to prove fitness) or Tommy Taylor (fringe)
Brooks, Sinkler (fringe), Waller (fringe)
Lawes, Attwood (fringe)
Kitchener (fringe),
Robshaw (confidence building), Tom Wood (fringe)
Underhill (project), Kvesic (fringe)
T.Harrison (poss fringe), Clifford, B.Morgan (fringe)
D.Care, Dan Robson (fringe)
G.Ford, D. Cips (fringe)
A.Watson, O.Woodburn (poss fringe/project)
O.Devoto (project), H.Mallinder (project)
M.Tuilagi (fitness/gametime), Joseph (confidence), Burrell (fringe)
Yarde (fringe),
Brown, Pennel (fringe), Millar (fringe)

I would imagine he is likely to use as many of his putative first team as he can - the only coaching justification for this game is to shake off some rust ahead of the tour. So I would expect that anyone involved will make the touring party unless they have a shocker.

That said, that looks like a reasonable list - though it's possible that Will Collier has come into the frame as a result of recent performances. Sinckler has been making the highlights videos with his running, but Collier has been destructive in the scrums.

Nice to see Collier getting a run of games and a bit of form.
Game against Chiefs will be a big test of that.

yappysnap wrote:Oh and as we know the play off teams I'd play this side against Wales:

Hill
Hartley
Brookes
Lawes
Garvey
Robshaw
Kvesic
Harrison
Care
Cipriani
Watson
Devoto
Joseph
Yarde
Brown

Ward, Waller, Synckler, ?, Clifford, Dickson, Ford, the Sale fb

I was a little stuck at lock tbh

With the semi-finals a week before the Wales game I expect that Jones will rest the losing semi-finalists he views as starters for the Oz tests but fringe players who might tour as injury cover but have little involvement in the tests he may give a chance. That logic could fill a few positions:

Scrum half - Dickson is well past his best but no matter who wins the Chiefs vs Wasps semi one of Robson/Chudley will be available for the Wales game and are more deserving of that chance.

Second row - If by some miracle Sarries lost then Kruis and Itoje should still be rested. However with Tigers up against it going to Allianz Park all of Slater, Kitchener and Barrow could be available and none are likely to tour. If Wasps lost then Launchbury could be an option (although I'd rest him) and if Chiefs lose then Mitch Lees and his English goldfish come into contention.

Centre - This depends on who EJ is planning to use most in Aus. If Manu is going to get a lot of game time he should be rested against Wales, the same could be said for Slade after his long lay-off. However, Sam Hill is an option if Chiefs lose and EJ has mentioned trying Daly at 12 before - one of those two will be free that week! If Leinster don't make the Pro 12 play-off final then Te'o might be considered as well...

Wing - Nowell should be rested even if available but if Exeter win then Wade would be available, chomping at the bit, in good form and unlikely to feature in Oz but for injuries. Also, Ashton was in EJs original 6 Nations EPS and has an outside chance of being free on the 28th if Tigers pull a Manu sized rabbit out their hat.

Those in bold realistically won't feature too heavily (or at all) in Oz and could be available on the 28th depending on who loses the semi-finals.

Glenn Ella added as skills coach for the summer tour. How many coaches is that now?

LondonTiger wrote:Glenn Ella added as skills coach for the summer tour. How many coaches is that now?

Queue Chieka announcing that Mark is joining the Oz set-up for the summer just for the mind games and press conferences...

Head coach - Jones
Forwards - Borthwick
Defence - Gustard
Scrum - Hatley
Skills - Ella

I'm guessing that Jones is taking responsibility for the backs again, if he brings a seperate backs coach in as well it will look ridiculous.

Whilst messy looking on the face of it they are a decent set of coaches though. Am I right in saying that Glenn Ella worked with EJ whilst he was with Oz?

king_carlos wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Glenn Ella added as skills coach for the summer tour. How many coaches is that now?

Queue Chieka announcing that Mark is joining the Oz set-up for the summer just for the mind games and press conferences...  

Head coach - Jones
Forwards - Borthwick
Defence - Gustard
Scrum - Hatley
Skills - Ella

I'm guessing that Jones is taking responsibility for the backs again, if he brings a seperate backs coach in as well it will look ridiculous.

Whilst messy looking on the face of it they are a decent set of coaches though. Am I right in saying that Glenn Ella worked with EJ whilst he was with Oz?

Genuine, though slightly facetious, question - given the various responsibilities of the coaches, is Borthwick not effectively simply a lineout coach? What other aspects of forward play would come under his remit?

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Glenn Ella added as skills coach for the summer tour. How many coaches is that now?

Queue Chieka announcing that Mark is joining the Oz set-up for the summer just for the mind games and press conferences...  

Head coach - Jones
Forwards - Borthwick
Defence - Gustard
Scrum - Hatley
Skills - Ella

I'm guessing that Jones is taking responsibility for the backs again, if he brings a seperate backs coach in as well it will look ridiculous.

Whilst messy looking on the face of it they are a decent set of coaches though. Am I right in saying that Glenn Ella worked with EJ whilst he was with Oz?

Genuine, though slightly facetious, question - given the various responsibilities of the coaches, is Borthwick not effectively simply a lineout coach? What other aspects of forward play would come under his remit?

Without being at the sessions I don't think any of us can be certain tbh. During his time with Japan it was widely considered that Borthwick had a very positive effect on their break down work so that is one important area he will work on. Most will consider it part of being 'line-out coach' but maul defence will be under his remit as well. I expect that he largely takes control of the planning and coaching for receiving restarts too - restarts are called the 3rd set-piece for good reason these days!

Gustard also worked with the forwards at Sarries so there will likely be cross over in certain areas. Fringe defence I expect both Borthwick and Gustard are heavily involved in. The Gustard tactic of disrupting opposition ruck ball by trying to get a foot through the ruck and kick the ball loose was also very evident in 6 Nations so both will be involved in defensive ruck work I'd guess.

In attack there will be cross over between Jones and Borthwick when it comes to forward runners and ruck clearance will be mostly be Borthwick. I'd guess he also has a significant input into attacking patterns from the back of scrums and mauls where the pack will be heavily involved.

The breakdown, perhaps, and maybe mauling? I've heard that forwards do that from time to time.

On the "real 7" continuing debate (you now likely mostly know that I think "real 7s" are a myth or at least a misnomer), Eddie Jones said that what he wanted from his 7 was NOT turnovers, but clearing out rucks and securing quick ball. Just a side note.

Poorfour wrote:The breakdown, perhaps, and maybe mauling? I've heard that forwards do that from time to time.

Tight carrying in units too.

Hill is a TH, Yappy...


Against Wales, I would not play any AP semifinalists at all. Something like this:

Marler
Hartley (c)
Brookes
Lawes
Attwood
Clifford (Robshaw needs a rest and Clifford needs a start)
Kvesic/Harrison
Morgan (though could play Harrison or Clifford here easily enough)
Care
Cipriani/Ford
May? If he's not back, Roko
Twelvetrees (just for the match)
Joseph
Yarde
Watson (give Brown a rest too)


Bench:
Waller, Hill, Taylor, Garvey, Harrison/Kvesic, Dickson I guess, Cipriani/Ford, Pennell (covers 13)

Strong squad, experience in there to beat Wales, lets some of the less in form starters/options get some international play to get their form back, combos work, a couple of new players getting their first start or getting a chance off the bench. If we want to give more players a shot, Cipriani covers 15 and you can pick Harry Mallinder instead of Pennell on the bench

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Poorfour wrote:The breakdown, perhaps, and maybe mauling? I've heard that forwards do that from time to time.

Tight carrying in units too.

Giving away stupid pens and ruining promising attacking moves by thinking their backs...

Theres a couple of players at teams at the bottom of the league who could put in a great shift v Wales.

Mark Wilson and Alex Lewington certainly wouldn't embarrass themselves.

I really hope that a stronger side is fielded than we usually see for the Baabaas game this time of year. I still have nightmares thinking about seeing Gareth Denman in an England jersey this time last year!

"Genuine, though slightly facetious, question - given the various responsibilities of the coaches, is Borthwick not effectively simply a lineout coach? What other aspects of forward play would come under his remit?"

Lineout attack/defence, Restarts attack/defence, rucking, mauls attack/defence, general breakdown skills these coupled with helping to build an English based coaching team to take over from Eddie and probably many other things I've overlooked.

king_carlos wrote:Mark Wilson and Alex Lewington certainly wouldn't embarrass themselves.

I really hope that a stronger side is fielded than we usually see for the Baabaas game this time of year. I still have nightmares thinking about seeing Gareth Denman in an England jersey this time last year!

I have nightmares about Gareth Denman is a Saints shirt at any time

Article in the telegraph muddies whatthe coaches do:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/05/07/eddie-jones-still-searching-for-a-national-backs-coach-despite-g/

“I’ve got to find the right guy, it’s not a matter of finding a coach, it’s a matter of finding the right guy,” said Jones. “The difficulty is that he has to fit my philosophy, so it’s not a matter of him coming in and changing the way we attack. I know how we attack and I run the attack, so I need someone to complement that. I need someone to put the detail on the players, because I’ve also got to oversee the forwards and look at the team in general.”

Paul Deacon Sharks skills attack coach has impressed.

Jim Mallinder says Hartley should be given the summer off:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/05/08/dylan-hartley-should-be-rested-for-englands-tour-of-australia/


Having missed large portions ofd the season due to two separate concussions it is hard for me to disagree with the Saints boss. Hartley's long term health should be paramount.

However having missed a Lions Tour and a World Cup due his disciplinary issues I very much doubt he would wish to miss a chance to captain England on tour.

I posted this on the England squad thread for Wales. I agree he should be rested.

No pint what soever playing him against Wales. And I would focus on another hooker and see who is the captain.

LondonTiger wrote:Jim Mallinder says Hartley should be given the summer off:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/05/08/dylan-hartley-should-be-rested-for-englands-tour-of-australia/


Having missed large portions ofd the season due to two separate concussions it is hard for me to disagree with the Saints boss. Hartley's long term health should be paramount.

However having missed a Lions Tour and a World Cup due his disciplinary issues I very much doubt he would wish to miss a chance to captain England on tour.

Then Mallinder should not have risked him in the final game at Glaws. Why risk a player you think needs the summer off, for a 20 minute stint when Haywood is more than capable

Aye, I saw the hypocrisy in this statement from Big Jim.

Underhill will be selected in an England squad in the next 6 month.

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/england-working-on-underhill-resolution/

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Underhill will be selected in an England squad in the next 6 month.

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/england-working-on-underhill-resolution/

Still need to overcome the opposition from Glaws, who would have been due compensation from Ospreys if he had signed with them rather than with Bridgend. As supposedly the main reason Underhill left them was because the full contract offered (rather than academy one that he was on) only allowed for part time studies, I do hope that a compromise can be found. After all this is very different to the likes of Steffon, Bendy and Flood heading off to France.

Well I hope he turns out to be good enough for all this cafuffle....

For me Kvesic is still the best England 7 by quite some way!

kingelderfield wrote:Paul Deacon Sharks skills attack coach has impressed.

Jones says he wants someone who can put his ideas into practice, not their own, so it's probably not a question of how well someone has got their team's backline moving.