Eddie's England squad for summer

First topic message reminder :

Hello you lovely lot.

I've very much enjoyed your posts over this six nations. Great stuff.

I don't post much as I'm a bit of a novice (well a lot of really) but I'm always intrigued by your far more experienced wisdom. So:

The summer will bring a chance for Eddie to put more of his stamp on the team; who do you think stays the same and who changes? And who, if any, so you think might be bolters? (I know it's an oxymoron asking about bolters this early, but I'm going to do it anyway)

GeordieFalcon wrote:Flipping Teo!!!! What a load of Cr@p

Yarde!!!  How?!

No Kvesic.  

Maybe Brookes fitness is an issue for Jones

I have not seen much of Teo. What is the problem? All I know is that he was a League player and he has played a season in Pro12. Neither of those things inspire much confidence.

I agree about Yarde. He has been average at best. How he is considered better than Ashton or even Wade is beyond me.

Regarding Kvesic. I cannot ever see him getting a shot. Jones seems to prefer to play ball carrying players in the back row and hope the rest of the team come up with turnovers.

Its just getting to the stage that there wont be an English accent in the flippin team.

He's 29 and a muscly centre type player. Why not just give Sam Hill the spot instead.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Its just getting to the stage that there wont be an English accent in the flippin team.

He's 29 and a muscly centre type player. Why not just give Sam Hill the spot instead.

Yeh I mean a whole 2 players who have not played for England U20's.

and look hardly any players who have lived in England since they where 19. I mean only 31 out of 32 god damn it.

Ah don't give me facts man!

It still sounds like a Pacfic rim select XV

GeordieFalcon wrote:It still sounds like a Pacfic rim select XV

What
Vunipola x 2
Tuilagi
Te'o
?



Or are you on about those PI names of Harrison and Hartley?

I was talking about the accents....

GeordieFalcon wrote:I was talking about the accents....

And who are they.

T'eo, Harrison, Hartley.

vunipola x 2 have been in the UK since they where 9. Manu has been here since he was what 12/13 roughly. all don't have exactly thick accents.

C'mon Welly, give the guy a break!

No bother Welly

What you mean no brothers???????

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Maybe give him a chance and then if he can't step up when in this Domestic form that should end all future discussion about him playing for England

He's got 20 caps, has he ever looked like replicating his club form?

He's not going to get any faster or more physical suddenly.

He's FB for the best side in Europe, and he's been voted the best player in English rugby this season - he has earned a start in a test match.

The idea he's slow is one of the great myths btw, and I also don't see him as lacking physicality as FBs go.

Well it's a pretty good squad, but I'd quibble in a few places.

It's a shame Ewers isn't involved, but I can understand why he' stuck with Robshaw and Haskell. For me Clifford has been slipping backwards and is lucky to be on the senior tour - I'm guessing he is there as the back-up 8. I'm very pleased to see Harrison included - he could be the future at 7.

Genge is a bit out of leftfield - he's obviously building for the future with him and Sinkler. I wouldn't have minded seeing Hepburn tour, but this is a detail really.

The backs still have too many players trading on reputation (Brown, Ford, Joseph). Yarde is obviously there because of potential EJ sees rather than what he's done this season, and I think selecting Te'o this early (or at-all) is very disappointing. I can see how Farrell, Te'o and Slade could be extremely effective, but T'o has never played for an English side and has only played Union for a short period.

Unless Slade switches to FH I think England have a looming crisis here - I don't think Ford is good enough, and EF obviously doesn't rate Cipriani. Hopefully Lozowski will it the ground running for Sarries next season. Otherwise if Farrell is injured then we are in a hole (Devoto as backup FH anyone?).

So, the forwards continue to look good, but still don't think he has got the backs right. I like to see Slade or Daly get the 13 shirt ahead of Joseph.

DaveM wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Maybe give him a chance and then if he can't step up when in this Domestic form that should end all future discussion about him playing for England

He's got 20 caps, has he ever looked like replicating his club form?

He's not going to get any faster or more physical suddenly.

He's FB for the best side in Europe, and he's been voted the best player in English rugby this season - he has earned a start in a test match.

The idea he's slow is one of the great myths btw, and I also don't see him as lacking physicality as FBs go.

Petrus is starting TH but I don't see many shouting for him.

He's extremley slow, it's not a myth. He also lacks physicality and gets knocked off tackles far too easily.

Yes he's in form but he's proved he's not Int class in his previous 20 caps.

He's a great club player, no shame in this.

I can't think of a slower back 3 player in world rugby (Int).

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

DaveM wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Maybe give him a chance and then if he can't step up when in this Domestic form that should end all future discussion about him playing for England

He's got 20 caps, has he ever looked like replicating his club form?

He's not going to get any faster or more physical suddenly.

He's FB for the best side in Europe, and he's been voted the best player in English rugby this season - he has earned a start in a test match.

The idea he's slow is one of the great myths btw, and I also don't see him as lacking physicality as FBs go.

Petrus is starting TH but I don't see many shouting for him.

He's extremley slow, it's not a myth. He also lacks physicality and gets knocked off tackles far too easily.

Yes he's in form but he's proved he's not Int class in his previous 20 caps.

He's a great club player, no shame in this.

I can't think of a slower back 3 player in world rugby (Int).

Is Petrus player of the year?

Goode has never been in this form when he's played for England. He deserves another chance.

And how do you know he's slower than Brown? Goode has made some superb breaks this season.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

DaveM wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Maybe give him a chance and then if he can't step up when in this Domestic form that should end all future discussion about him playing for England

He's got 20 caps, has he ever looked like replicating his club form?

He's not going to get any faster or more physical suddenly.

He's FB for the best side in Europe, and he's been voted the best player in English rugby this season - he has earned a start in a test match.

The idea he's slow is one of the great myths btw, and I also don't see him as lacking physicality as FBs go.

Petrus is starting TH but I don't see many shouting for him.

He's extremley slow, it's not a myth. He also lacks physicality and gets knocked off tackles far too easily.

Yes he's in form but he's proved he's not Int class in his previous 20 caps.

He's a great club player, no shame in this.

I can't think of a slower back 3 player in world rugby (Int).

I try and keep an open mind but I am with Pooley on this one. 19 caps in never outrun anyone never showed any power but often does a nice jink or two before getting flattened.

He has strengths, but I don't think its enough

He is an important part of a very good club side but awards or no it doesn't make him a better international than a good player in a bad side.

Blimey. Teo is in the squad? That will give the media and ex RL haters like 7.5 a nervous breakdown. Just watch the venom flow.

Ashton can't catch high balls or kick very well. He's still a one trick pony. He reminds me of Varndell. Both are excellent finishers but at test level you need much more.

lostinwales wrote:I try and keep an open mind but I am with Pooley on this one. 19 caps in never outrun anyone never showed any power but often does a nice jink or two before getting flattened.

He has strengths, but I don't think its enough

He is an important part of a very good club side but awards or no it doesn't make him a better international than a good player in a bad side.

Never outrun anyone? A slight exaggeration. He held up well in a foot race with Ross Chisholm a couple of weeks back I thought, and I think LT pointed out he has excellent sprint stats at Saracens. You simply can't make the metres he makes without being able to shift a bit.

I'm struggling to remember him having a bad game for England. I have a vague recollection of a bouncing ball against France. What am I forgetting?

So Ben Te'o, the NZ born Samoan, who spent most of his life in Australia (representing Queensland in Rugby League), who now plays professional rugby in Ireland, will be representing England in rugby, a country where he has never played professionally or, to my knowledge, ever resided.
Odd.

DaveM wrote:

lostinwales wrote:I try and keep an open mind but I am with Pooley on this one. 19 caps in never outrun anyone never showed any power but often does a nice jink or two before getting flattened.

He has strengths, but I don't think its enough

He is an important part of a very good club side but awards or no it doesn't make him a better international than a good player in a bad side.

Never outrun anyone? A slight exaggeration. He held up well in a foot race with Ross Chisholm a couple of weeks back I thought, and I think LT pointed out he has excellent sprint stats at Saracens. You simply can't make the metres he makes without being able to shift a bit.

I'm struggling to remember him having a bad game for England. I have a vague recollection of a bouncing ball against France. What am I forgetting?

 

He's never had a good game to be fair.

I've seen him out paced by locks and regularly by backrows, he's very very slow. Brown isn't rapid but he's decent and has a lot of power to compensate.

Is there a slower back 3 player in Int rugby?

englandglory4ever wrote:Blimey. Teo is in the squad? That will give the media and ex RL haters like 7.5 a nervous breakdown. Just watch the venom flow.

I don't hate ex rugby league players. Kind of makes me wonder if you even read the things people write here!

englandglory4ever wrote:Ashton can't catch high balls or kick very well. He's still a one trick pony. He reminds me of Varndell. Both are excellent finishers but at test level you need much more.

Ah you just hate ex RL players.

You gotta admire his balls on "that pick".
Eitehr that or Jones has paid no attention to what has done for the last umpteen England managers and split the dressing room.

Gooseberry wrote:You gotta admire his balls on "that pick".
Eitehr that or Jones has paid no attention to what has done for the last umpteen England managers and split the dressing room.

Mind he has also done what no other England manger has done in 13 years and win a Grand slam.

Sgt Pooly Petrus Du Plessis is a 34 year old South African who offers not much outside the scrum, he's a strong scrummager but no one seriously sees him as an England prospect. They shouldn't.

I agree with others Some very odd selections.

Not just Yarde or T'eo. I would have picked Wade or Ashton. Instead of T'eo H.Mallinder or Hill.

Genge and Sinckler seem very strange. Sinckler I feel is still too raw. Genge even more so.

DaveM like you I am interested to see if Lozowski can be a hit at Saracens, the good news is that not many signings have failed in recent years.

Would love it if Lozowski can put pressure on Farrell Jr.

Jones effectively stated yesterday that he believes Yarde is a better winger than Ashton, and would have scored a shedload of tries if he played for Sarries. Not sure I agree with him, but he has earned the right to be given a little slack.

I'm not advocating PDP for England but I was suggesting playing for the best team in Europe doesn't warrant automatic inclusion.

In Goode's case, we know what he can and can't do.

Woodward having a pop at Jones' selections I see, accusing him of playing safe.

LondonTiger wrote:Jones effectively stated yesterday that he believes Yarde is a better winger than Ashton, and would have scored a shedload of tries if he played for Sarries. Not sure I agree with him, but he has earned the right to be given a little slack.

Yarde is a fantastic runner and will make his own tries and space for others.

Jones perhaps doesn't want to build his attack around Ashton which is what he'd need to do if included. Use Ashton at what he does best(tracking) or don't use him I guess.

My main issue with Yarde is that he is a lot slower than you at first think. I like him as a player, he is strong, hard working etc, but is that enough?

Agree that if you select Ashton your attack needs to work to his advantage, otherwise no point having him.

Jones has said he's told Ashton what he needs to improve. You would assume it's still defence and not reacting like a kid trying to get involved in fights all the time.

Sgt Pooly thinking you're being a little unfair on Goode. He has his flaws which we all know about but he warrants selection.

He's not just there because of the arm chair ride given by his pack. Against LI it was a weakened Saracens side and he was the best player on either side for example.

Londontiger maybe Yarde would but then again it would be hard for many players to match Ashton's finishing record.

I think Wade is also unlucky.

If Yarde was tearing it up for Quins I would have no qualms of picking him but he's not. Thought he was poor vs Montpellier too.

EJ was quite clear that one of the main attributes he's looking for is 'coachability'. That's why Yarde has got in ahead of Ashton.

Back to what I said about a few pages back about Goode lacking something Harrison has....I know it's different positions, but at international you need the aggressive intensity and physicality that Goode quite plainly lacks.

Twinkletoes dancing through leaky club level defences is great, he's a quality club player. But when he's running back with the Saveas and Norths of this world hunting him down he's just not good enough. Seen it enough times with him in an England shirt, goes running off looking for space that isn't there and gets hammered backwards and turned over, or at the least has to be rescued by the clearout and dish up slow ball.

Brown for all his lack of form at an underperforming club, you can count on him to get past the first defender and present the ball for quick recycling.

I think Goode deserves another chance, but I still don't think he can cut it.

mid gen guess it depends whether we think a player can improve under a new coach or not.

Goode hasn't been given a fair go with Jones in charge, maybe he will sink but his form IMO means he warrants another chance.

You saying lacking something, I think many players lack a good rugby brain but for many on here you don't need a good rugby brain to be a top class international.

I like Brown but his decision making at times is poor.

Harrison has been talked up - I want to see if he can deliver.

I talked up a certain player and he's delivered so far.....

You talk about Yarde's coachability but I've not seen anything from him which suggests he's got the skills needed. I think his defence is worse than Ashton's.

If England are going to discount Ashton then the person surely to turn to is Wade.

beshocked wrote:

I like Brown but his decision making at times is poor.

Harrison has been talked up - I want to see if he can deliver.

I talked up a certain player and he's delivered so far.....

I think this 6n more than ever showed Browns inability to look outside him carrying the ball. He just isn't good at looking up and making the passes to create chances.

Harrison, I agree needs to show up well. I know I bleep on about Kvesic, but for me hes the standout EQ '7' in the prem. I don't get why he is over looked. So Harrison will need to show that he can do the grunt breakdown work aswell as everything else Jones seems to require.

Who did you talk up?

I assume he is referring to Itoje - but then everyone has talked him up. Perhaps not as much as B, but we have all rated him - just felt (as did McCall btw) that he was not ready for last years WC. He is a much better player than he was at the start of the season - but as Jones says still some areas he needs to work on if he is to be genuinely world class.

At the risk of being on the receiving end of Wellys wrath again ...I will repeat that I am just not happy with the Teo selection.

LondonTiger wrote:I assume he is referring to Itoje - .

Did Beshocked talk up Itoje?? I cant remember that.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I assume he is referring to Itoje - .

Did Beshocked talk up Itoje?? I cant remember that.

It was subtle, so you may have missed it.

GeordieFalcon wrote:At the risk of being on the receiving end of Wellys wrath again         ...I will repeat that I am just not happy with the Teo selection.

You are just a hater of RL players with PI names.



I am not happy either, primarily from what I have seen of him playing (only NRL and ECC as I have not seen him in Pro12) and his age. The fact that the playing outside of England rule has been "bent" for him I guess suggests that Jones must really rate him.

Wales Online seem to think this will be close to the England team:

15 Mike Brown
14 Anthony Watson
13 Jonathan Joseph
12 Luther Burrell
11 Marland Yarde
10 George Ford
9 Danny Care
8 Jack Clifford
7 James Haskell
6 Chris Robshaw
5 Courtney Lawes
4 Joe Launchbury
3 Dan Cole
2 Dylan Hartley
1 Matt Mullan

Not a bad team at all actually, their depth is superb.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:At the risk of being on the receiving end of Wellys wrath again         ...I will repeat that I am just not happy with the Teo selection.

You are just a hater of RL players with PI names.



I am not happy either, primarily from what I have seen of him playing (only NRL and ECC as I have not seen him in Pro12) and his age. The fact that the playing outside of England rule has been "bent" for him I guess suggests that Jones must really rate him.

indeed...and accents!

We have brought in an outside coach who knows his own mind and should be expected to shake things up a bit, and who has already had some decent success in his first few games

I guess there is a certain frustration that when the first chance comes up he seems to have slipped into the same old idea that we can make good centers out of RL players that has been a 'feature' of English RU (in particular) ever since Jason Robinson first came along and ripped up international defenses for fun. Generally this has just been a bad idea

T'eo may be a big success. At least he has been able to learn some of his trade outside of the English media spotlight. I'll stay neutral until he's had a chance, but based on history I am not optimistic.

Shifty it's not England's depth that's the problem. It's strength that's the problem.

We've got 2 rookie LH and TH in the 32 - neither fill me with confidence.

HK and lock are fine.

Burrell is more suited to 13 than 12.

Neither Care or Youngs really feel me with confidence as their control of a game can go at any moment but there aren't exactly many 9s scrambling to topple them - Robson maybe but that's it. He's not in the 32.

At 10 we have Ford who has been in poor form and Farrell whose last few international games has seen him shunted to 12.

Yarde makes Ashton seem like a good tackler.

T'eo being picked is a statement of how bad things are in the centres.

Slade is a 10 being forced to play in the centre too.

It's not all doom and gloom because Eddie Jones and co did win a slam but it's hard to see the likes of T'Eo and Yarde being success stories. Hope I am proved wrong.

But Teo has played Rugby League for Samoa!! I know the rules are the rules but for gods sake he should have to play rugby for samoa...

Just like Henry Paul, Vainikolo, etc etc should.

It needs to be addressed. What can he do that Sam Hill cant?

Slade is probably our most gifted back. He could easily play 10 12 13. Yarde has been pretty good for England in the past as well.

[quote="GeordieFalcon"]But Teo has played Rugby League for Samoa!! I know the rules are the rules but for gods sake he should have to play rugby for samoa...

Just like Henry Paul, Vainikolo, etc etc should.

It needs to be addressed. What can he do that Sam Hill cant? [/quote}

Could have played for Australia (residency - went to Keebra on a league scholarship at 17 or 18), Samoa (parents/grandparents), or NZ born and grew up (played junior rugby for Silverdale and Orewa College).

beshocked wrote:You talk about Yarde's coachability but I've not seen anything from him which suggests he's got the skills needed. I think his defence is worse than Ashton's.

If England are going to discount Ashton then the person surely to turn to is Wade.

I've posted this many many times but arguing about the defensive deficiencies of our wingers bar Nowell is like fighting over an empty crisp packet IMO. They are all pretty poor.

Nowell - Very strong in the tackle, under the high ball and positionally astute.

Watson - Good under the high ball and solid positioning (although both are better from FB for him IMO) but a revolving door of a tackler

Yarde - Poor in positioning which lets him down under the high ball and in the tackle. He's  reasonably solid in contact and makes hits when in position but often isn't. He has been much better for Quins this season though that isn't saying much given he barely looked to be trying off the ball last season.

Ashton - Much improved in tackling and positioning but still substandard in both and poor under high ball.

Rokoduguni - Probably next best after Nowell. He's strong in the tackle and solid in positioning although he does like to rush up looking for the big hit. Solid under the high ball due to his athleticism, i.e. he gets impressive height on his jump and holds his ground against a contesting chaser given how strong he is.

Wade - Similar to Ashton IMO. He's improved in the tackle and positioning but is still below par (I personally think he's no weaker in the tackle itself than Ashton or Watson). Similar deficiencies to Ashton and Yarde under the high ball although his ability to make something from nothing does at least provide some deterrent from peppering him with bombs given he can punish poor kicks.

I agree that I'd have preferred Wade over Yarde though. If we are going to have wingers with glaring defensive weaknesses then it might as well be the ones who can do the most in attack.

Not grey and not a ghost wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:But Teo has played Rugby League for Samoa!! I know the rules are the rules but for gods sake he should have to play rugby for samoa...

Just like Henry Paul, Vainikolo, etc etc should.

It needs to be addressed. What can he do that Sam Hill cant? [/quote}

Could have played for Australia (residency - went to Keebra on a  league scholarship at 17 or 18), Samoa (parents/grandparents), or NZ born and grew up (played junior rugby for Silverdale and Orewa College).

Well he shouldn't be playing for us....simple as that!