Eddie's England squad for summer

First topic message reminder :

Hello you lovely lot.

I've very much enjoyed your posts over this six nations. Great stuff.

I don't post much as I'm a bit of a novice (well a lot of really) but I'm always intrigued by your far more experienced wisdom. So:

The summer will bring a chance for Eddie to put more of his stamp on the team; who do you think stays the same and who changes? And who, if any, so you think might be bolters? (I know it's an oxymoron asking about bolters this early, but I'm going to do it anyway)

DaveM wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Ewers, Slade and Goode don't deserve a spot imo.

Goode is the best English FB by a mile. It isn't remotely close. Watson will take over in due course, but there's no way he's currently better than Goode at 15.
......

I think there is a difference between 'the best' and 'the best for the England team'. Goode better skill set but his weaknesses at international level are also an issue. Watson will cause damage

Goode does look very good at club level if you ignore the frequent errors he makes. He can tend to fling the ball anywhere when he is tackled which at Test level is a recipe for 7 points against. He can also choose to run and get isolated when he should kick. Again very costly at test level. He's good but not that good.

lostinwales wrote:

DaveM wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Ewers, Slade and Goode don't deserve a spot imo.

Goode is the best English FB by a mile. It isn't remotely close. Watson will take over in due course, but there's no way he's currently better than Goode at 15.
......

I think there is a difference between 'the best' and 'the best for the England team'. Goode better skill set but his weaknesses at international level are also an issue. Watson will cause damage

Agree.

There's also a big difference between "the best" and the "most in form". Goode is playing well but we know he struggles to replicate this form at a higher level.

Maybe give him a chance and then if he can't step up when in this Domestic form that should end all future discussion about him playing for England

Can we agree that due to the current form of the incumbent, we do need to look at alternatives?

Absolutely and that man should be Watson.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Maybe give him a chance and then if he can't step up when in this Domestic form that should end all future discussion about him playing for England

He's got 20 caps, has he ever looked like replicating his club form?

He's not going to get any faster or more physical suddenly.

Goode is under rated and can be a good 15 for England.

Watson (or Nowell) could be world class, and with Wade/Ashton knocking on the door, I have to think that a back three of Watson, Nowell and Wade would trouble every other team.

He[Goode]'s not going to get any faster or more physical suddenly.

Brown did, after a few visits to a sprint coach. Has Goode already been?

I would like to see a back three of Watson (FB), Nowell and Roko.

Brown's form doesn't currently merit starting.

Goode, in my opinion, is not the right player to replace him. If he does get another go, I think this really is his last chance to be something other than painfully average

Thought he had a pretty average game in the Euro final which doesn't help matters. I guess we'll see how Goode does in the AP play offs though.

As it stands Brown is really off the pace. Watson isn't ready yet and Goode may never manage to step up.

I really think we should start Watson vs Wales and see how he does, thus also giving Brown a kick up the arse and a rest, and then see how they are all doing in camp in time for Aus

I would love a back line of:

9. Care
10. Farrell
11.Nowell
12.Manu
13.Slade
14.Wade
15.Watson

Some of the Quins guys didn't really put their hands up for the tour after a tough Friday night. They could be added to EJ's list of players that haven't maintained standards.

They may still travel but could be loosing the starting jersey.

propdavid_london wrote:Some of the Quins guys didn't really put their hands up for the tour after a tough Friday night.  They could be added to EJ's list of players that haven't maintained standards.  

They may still travel but could be loosing the starting jersey.  

Problem is that English squad players who were important in the old regime and still involved now haven't had a decent break from Rugby for a long time (unless they have had injuries). Marler probably did a smart thing arranging to have a few weeks off this season....

Marler & smart should never be used in the same sentance.

For Wales Id be temped on:

11 Lewington
14 Roko (If hes in a bit of form)
15 Watson

Offers a bit of everything and we can see if Lewington can move up the level. Roko Brings some real direct power, which might be needed if we go for a more skilled midfield.

propdavid_london wrote:Some of the Quins guys didn't really put their hands up for the tour after a tough Friday night.  They could be added to EJ's list of players that haven't maintained standards.  

They may still travel but could be loosing the starting jersey.  

I thought Marler and Care were outstanding against Montpellier even though they were outmuscled up front. Robshaw looked decidedly average and Yarde looked flaky in defence but did finish a good try. Brown made uncharacteristic mistakes and looked well over played. He needs a rest to get his apetite back.

Marler needs another shot to get into EJs good books.
Care was good but there wasn't his usual sniping - limited opportunity
Robshaw put in a massive shift as usual - but didn't make a big difference when bullied at the breakdown.
Brown as you say looks tired.......needs some time to recover and get his head right.
Yarde was caught out of position a number of times - lots of running but for a winger seems to look for contact more than hitting the gaps!

Friday night was one of those games when there was an accumulation of errors that just added up!

propdavid_london wrote:Marler needs another shot to get into EJs good books.
Care was good but there wasn't his usual sniping - limited opportunity
Robshaw put in a massive shift as usual - but didn't make a big difference when bullied at the breakdown.
Brown as you say looks tired.......needs some time to recover and get his head right.  
Yarde was caught out of position a number of times - lots of running but for a winger seems to look for contact more than hitting the gaps!

Friday night was one of those games when there was an accumulation of errors that just added up!

The breakdown was a real shambles on Friday night - but Lacey's interpretation of it was decidedly dodgy. He awarded two penalties that even the commentators struggled to justify and Montpellier were seemingly allowed to dive over and put hands on the floor with impunity. Also, please don't get me started on Montpellier's first try... I have seen tries created by illegal blocking moves before, but this is the first one I've ever seen created by the referee.

Quins have struggled for some time with how teams now approach the breakdown - much as England's ability to cope with it declined from 2011-2015. Hopefully with a change of coaching personnel they can do something similar to what Eddie has achieved with England - get more aggressive and hit harder and earlier.

Brown's grasp on the Englnad shirt is looking decidedly shaky at the moment. Clifford has had ups and downs, but the commentators on Friday were positive about his contribution; I think Eddie sees him as a development project anyway. Care and Marler look more secure - did anyone else enjoy the irony of Marler breaking up a fight in the last few minutes?

It's hard to tell with Robshaw. He put in another huge shift, and his carrying was strong against tough opposition, but how much is left in the tank? The dilemma from Eddie's perspective is that England have clawed their way back into 4th in the rankings, but they have Wales, Ireland and Australia x 3 away, plus Wales, South Africa, Argentina, Australia and France at home before the RWC draw. How many of those games can Eddie afford to lose if England want to stay 4th, and how many will he need to win to justify his aim of being the most dominant NH side?

I think the rather experimental squads being touted around here are wishful thinking. He will have enough changes forced by the playoffs, so I don't think he will be trying to throw new players in for the sake of it. All of which said, anyone who doesn't up their game in training is vulnerable...

I stick with this team vs Wales:

Watson (Brown really needs a rest), Roko, Joseph, Twelvetrees, Lewington (more likely to see Brown at 15 and Watson here though), Cipriani (will be Ford though), Care, Morgan, Harrison, Clifford, Attwood, Lawes, Brookes, Hartley, Marler

Bench including Ford, Taylor, Kvesic, Mallinder

Mallinder on the bench could be interesting as he has been overlooked in favour of the U20s for both the full squad and the Saxons.

He could be a useful player to have covering 12, 14 and 15 plus a very large boot.

If he does get a go, I would love it to be at 12, he makes mistakes at 15 as he does not have much experience there, but I have not seen him make a real howler at 12 and he offers the 2nd kicking option so loved by coaches.

ChequeredJersey wrote:I stick with this team vs Wales:

Watson (Brown really needs a rest), Roko, Joseph, Twelvetrees, Lewington (more likely to see Brown at 15 and Watson here though), Cipriani (will be Ford though), Care, Morgan, Harrison, Clifford, Attwood, Lawes, Brookes, Hartley, Marler

Bench including Ford, Taylor, Kvesic, Mallinder

Is that serious or are you just playing a little wind up on us

Twelvetrees

Twelvetrees would be a one game measure whilst our other candidates at 12 aren't available and I think would take more pressure off the 10's kicking game if we start Watson and Care at 15 and 9

Unless we think Prince Harry is ready for a cap, but it seems too soon

I think Harry is away with the U20's CJ.

I'm sure a cap would trump it. Prem teams can call back players from the U20s for a standard match

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Mallinder on the bench could be interesting as he has been overlooked in favour of the U20s for both the full squad and the Saxons.

He could be a useful player to have covering 12, 14 and 15 plus a very large boot.

If he does get a go, I would love it to be at 12, he makes mistakes at 15 as he does not have much experience there, but I have not seen him make a real howler at 12 and he offers the 2nd kicking option so loved by coaches.

It would be fun to see Prince Harry (future England and Lions captain) paired with Joseph in the mid-field. But he hasn't played a full season yet in the Premiership. Maybe a year too early?

Jones has confirmed that Underhill is not touring.

That's a shame, he looks a real talent. A good pre-season and some more game time for the Ospreys will do him no harm I guess. It's a shame he's not joining up with the U20 side at least, they could do with some added quality in the pack.

Not touring at all ie no SA?

Not at all according to Eddie.

Yup, he expects/hopes him to be in the frame in November. For now he says he needs a proper pre-season as he has had so much time out with injuries.

Good management from EJ

Marler withdrawn from the squad as he feels he needs to rest:

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/marler-pulls-out-england-squad/

Given the amount of rugby he has had it's not surprising Marler needs a rest. The circus around his disciplinary stuff won't have helped but from a purely playing point of view I expect that a few of the RWC squad feel the exact same but don't want to say anything.

It opens up an excellent opportunity for Matt Mullan to get some game time and Mako to show what he offers starting.

I hope Alex Waller is called up as a replacement as surely Sinckler won't be used for LH cover as seems the case in the Wales squad!

I thought Jones' comments on whether England players need a rest were unhelpful.

He said coaches told him right from the off of the danger of burnout but he replied that New Zealand have it no different when they travel up North at the end of their season.

Of course, there's an especially big difference this year, because England World Cup players have been in training camps, and playing, since the 22nd June. The All Blacks never have a 12 month season.

I know Jones has a long record of saying one thing, and doing another, but we'll soon see in his squad choices how he's playing things.

Doubts over Farrell and Tuilagi for the tour. At the very least, Farrell could miss out on the final if he's done his ribs.

Don't know what to think about Tuilagi. I'd rather he had a break and a proper pre-season anyway but you don't want him coming back from yet another injury. At least Jones will know the the risks of building your plans around a player who is out so often.

If Farrell does miss the tour, then that will pose a couple of questions. Do you rely on Ford if Farrell isn't outside him? Is Cipriani the next fly half, or is that Slade? Or Alex Goode?

Looks like Tuilagi out, Farrell will probably recover.

Puts a great big fat question mark over the 12 spot. With Ben Te'o (whatever you think of him) and Hill and Sladr definitely out of the Wales game with Leinster and Exeter commitments and Wasps crashing out at the semi final stage, the realistic options are limited to Daly at 12 with Joseph outside him (as Jones has gone too in the Six Nations, albeit off the bench) or Burrell or Devoto and either/or on Joseph and Daly, which is an option I probably favour (and lean towards Devoto).

In terms of 15, I'd possibly look at Watson against Wales and then Goode for the 3 tests against Australia. Give him a prolonged run of games when he's on form and if he can't make it work he can be replaced in the autumn, with Brown if he's on form or Watson if he puts in a decent show against Wales and we have wingers that can replace him. But now is the right time too have a look at someone else and Goode is that man imo.

England squad for three-test tour of Australia

Forwards (18): D Cole (Leicester), L Cowan-Dickie (Exeter), J Clifford (Harlequins), E Genge (Bristol), J George (Saracens), T Harrison (Northampton), D Hartley (Northampton, capt), J Haskell (Wasps), P Hill (Northampton), M Itoje (Saracens), G Kruis (Saracens), J Launchbury (Wasps), C Lawes (Northampton), M Mullan (Wasps), C Robshaw (Harlequins), K Sinckler (Harlequins), B Vunipola (Saracens), M Vunipola (Saracens)

Backs (14): M Brown (Harlequins), D Care (Harlequins), E Daly (Wasps), O Farrell (Saracens), G Ford (Bath), A Goode (Saracens), J Joseph (Bath), J Nowell (Exeter), H Slade (Exeter), B Te'o (Leinster), M Tuilagi (Leicester), A Watson (Bath), M Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester)


Notable omission Ashton which I'm pleased about.
Manu included despite picking up injury. Also props Genge and Sinckler come into the squad perhaps a bit unexpectedly.

Genge and Sinckler real surprises. No Brookes I see.

Manu subject to how his hamstring is,

Brookes going from arguably close to 1st choice before the 6N to 4th now is a bit surprising

Wonder if he's one of the players Jones thought needed to up their game

Eddie Jones game plan is to create a very mean, powerful England pack and prob sees it as in the future come 2019

1) Genge
2) ?
3) Sink
4) Kruis
5) Itoje
6) Ewers
7) Harrison
8) Vunipola

IMO

Sinckler is a real surprise as his scrummaging is suspect at this stage. Great for Harrsion as he's been fantatsic. Could we see:

1. Mullen
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Itoje
5. Kruis
6. Haskell
7. Harrison
8. Vuinipola

9. Care
10. Ford
11. Nowell
12. Teo
13. Joseph
14. Yarde
15. Watson

?

A bit surprised with Yarde, but you can't doubt his attacking ability with ball in hand.

Flipping Teo!!!! What a load of Cr@p

Yarde!!! How?!

No Kvesic.

Maybe Brookes fitness is an issue for Jones

Welly wrote: Eddie Jones game plan is to create a very mean, powerful England pack and prob sees it as in the future come 2019

1) Genge
2) ?
3) Sink
4) Kruis
5) Itoje
6) Ewers
7) Harrison
8) Vunipola

IMO

A lot of those guys will not be haunted by the near misses and mental scars of the Lancaster reign either. Tough as teak with an aggressive mental attitude.

I would keep an eye out for Jack Walker (at hooker) who Bath have brought in from Yorkshire too, he is a serious talent and 2019 will be a target for him.

I don't get the whole Te'o thing. And why is Eddie taking Tuilagi? I just don't see him being ready for the tests plus he's not exactly been at his best recently.

I'm surprised at the omissions of both Wade and Ashton as both have been playing well. Still, we don't get to see what's going on behind the scenes and can only guess at the specific technical issues that dictate what Eddie's looking for. Perhaps they'll go on the Saxons tour.

Very surprised with no Ashton, he's been playing very well.

I'm ok with Teo. We miss a decent 12, give him a shot.