Marler to Face World Rugby Hearing

First topic message reminder :

From BBC

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/35887510

Quite disconcerting that some seem to be literally frothing at the mouth in their excitement to get Marler nailed.

Surely the issue here is....

Should someone calling a player an English b4stard, or English p4rick, or English whatever, be banned for racism?

Clearly not. I'm English and proud of it. And the second word shows more about the insecurity of the insulter than reveal anything insightful about me.

PC rubbish all of it.

And it's a massive can of worms if they do open it...

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The law does not interpret it as racist, the law interprets Romani Gypsies and Irish Travellers to be ethnic minorities, that does not mean comments made against someone of that heritage is racist. Rugby players react aggressively all the time and in fact Lee was already acting in an aggressive manner before the comment was even made.

Not BOD then?

quinsforever wrote:Surely the issue here is....

Should someone calling a player an English b4stard, or English p4rick, or English whatever, be banned for racism?

Clearly not. I'm English and proud of it. And the second word shows more about the insecurity of the insulter than reveal anything insightful about me.

PC rubbish all of it.

And it's a massive can of worms if they do open it...

Already opened i'm afraid.

Indeed dave. So expect 1 ban every game every time someone says cheating f4cking kiwi...

Well it's not symmetrical is it. I mean, lots of people get persecuted against for being travellers but there's no systemic discrimination against the English. I don't get why its the same.

quinsforever wrote:Indeed dave. So expect 1 ban every game every time someone says cheating f4cking kiwi...

And forced to attend an appropriate cheating Kiwi awareness course, costing £85, for those in the crowd who happen to say "feck" or "arse" or similar that could offend.

Notch wrote:Well it's not symmetrical is it. I mean, lots of people get persecuted against for being travellers but there's no systemic discrimination against the English. I don't get why its the same.

My council use massive rocks.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:
If you believe that the issue of PC is of greater concern than racism, bigotry, discrimination and prejudice then all I can say is I find your thinking to be warped beyond belief.

But these days PC is just that. It's the reason why people like Trump can get a great following. Let's think about it for a moment, "gypsy boy" - come on... Not much in that! Gatland and Lee himself said it how it is.

Careful there Mikey, when I suggested similar on another thread - that blowing this out of proportion would only push more people towards the right in exasperation - I was labelled as being ignorant. Seems to be the generic reply whenever certain people don't want to answer a question.

Something I've seen asked a few times, why is gypsy boy worse than Welsh, fat, ginger etc, and the answer tends to be (again) you're ignorant, or 'because the law says so'. Which suggests that pre-2010 (before travelers were deemed an ethnic group in law) those now frothing over the Lee incident wouldn't have been quite so bothered, as it wouldn't have been against the law. Odd how some people need their moral compass set by what someone else tells them, rather than having the ability to think for themselves.

Notch wrote:Well it's not symmetrical is it. I mean, lots of people get persecuted against for being travellers but there's no systemic discrimination against the English. I don't get why its the same.

Is there systemic discrimination against travelers?

Because it's about racism notch. Not whether a group has been persecuted. That's precisely what I meant by opening a can of worms. If someone calls me an English p4rick I guarantee you it's pejorative and just as racist if not more so than gypsy boy said on a rugby pitch.

Should they be banned for saying that to me? Hell no. It's rugby not who can claim to be most offended on twitter.

Hoonercat wrote:

Notch wrote:Well it's not symmetrical is it. I mean, lots of people get persecuted against for being travellers but there's no systemic discrimination against the English. I don't get why its the same.

Is there systemic discrimination against travelers?

I'd suggest that there probably is on some level. I think that for a long time it was considered perfectly acceptable to discriminate against them, yeah. I'm not wanting to get into black and white thinking about it because obviously the situation is way more complex than that but I wouldn't say that being white, middle class and English would open you up to quite the same level of casual harassment and discrimination and as some people in the community might have had to deal with. I think that that social context and social history is important, nothing is said in a vacuum.

I mean, what are you going to say to a white, upper-middle class English guy? What hurtful and pejorative stereotypes are you going to deploy? Fecking English ****! Go back to your fee-paying school! Yeah, thats right, f*** off back to your nice house in Surrey!

Like... what? Thats meant to be the same? That really would sting would it?

I don't know man. I'm just a guy on the internet. Just seems like a funny argument to me thats all

Hoonercat wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:
If you believe that the issue of PC is of greater concern than racism, bigotry, discrimination and prejudice then all I can say is I find your thinking to be warped beyond belief.

But these days PC is just that. It's the reason why people like Trump can get a great following. Let's think about it for a moment, "gypsy boy" - come on... Not much in that! Gatland and Lee himself said it how it is.

Careful there Mikey, when I suggested similar on another thread - that blowing this out of proportion would only push more people towards the right in exasperation - I was labelled as being ignorant. Seems to be the generic reply whenever certain people don't want to answer a question.

Something I've seen asked a few times, why is gypsy boy worse than Welsh, fat, ginger etc, and the answer tends to be (again) you're ignorant, or 'because the law says so'. Which suggests that pre-2010 (before travelers were deemed an ethnic group in law) those now frothing over the Lee incident wouldn't have been quite so bothered, as it wouldn't have been against the law. Odd how some people need their moral compass set by what someone else tells them, rather than having the ability to think for themselves.

Ah well after all that I've read on the matter it's just my opinion. I'm also willing to bet that Samson's team mates have called him a pikie on more than one occasion . Marler probably shouldn't have used the term to try and antagonise him though, just for the simple fact that it might open a can of worms, which it duly did. It's been investigated by multiple parties now, I think that's enough to make people think twice about using such terms in the future.

Notch wrote:

Hoonercat wrote:

Notch wrote:Well it's not symmetrical is it. I mean, lots of people get persecuted against for being travellers but there's no systemic discrimination against the English. I don't get why its the same.

Is there systemic discrimination against travelers?

I'd suggest that there probably is on some level. I think that for a long time it was considered perfectly acceptable to discriminate against them, yeah. I'm not wanting to get into black and white thinking about it because obviously the situation is way more complex than that but I wouldn't say that being white, middle class and English would open you up to quite the same level of casual harassment and discrimination and as some people in the community might have had to deal with. I think that that social context and social history is important, nothing is said in a vacuum.

I'm not going to go in to to much detail as I realize it's a sore subject, but we've had 6 groups of travellers pitch up near us in the past 10 or so years. One of those would always be welcome back, I take people for how they are and they were easy to talk to, always had a cheerful good morning from them and when they left you wouldn't have even known they'd been there. The other 5 can go jump off a cliff for what they did while they were here. I suspect the reason that so many people have little sympathy is because they have been in similar situations and, no matter what the law might tell us, refuse to acknowledge that travellers should be afforded special rights - respect is a 2 way street.

Notch wrote:I mean, what are you going to say to a white, upper-middle class English guy? What hurtful and pejorative stereotypes are you going to deploy? Fecking English ****! Go back to your fee-paying school! Yeah, thats right, f*** off back to your nice house in Surrey!

Like... what? Thats meant to be the same? That really would sting would it?

I don't know man. I'm just a guy on the internet. Just seems like a funny argument to me thats all

An argument about immigrants on Facebook recently, one who struggled to spell his own name and the other well educated, ended with the insult "You over educated idiot.' That must have really hurt

Hoonercat wrote:An argument about immigrants on Facebook recently, one who struggled to spell his own name and the other well educated, ended with the insult "You over educated idiot.' That must have really hurt

Hahaha

"Laws" care not if someone is in a majority, minority, or how persecuted they may or may not have been in the past, as far as racism and hate crime is concerned.

I don't know about you guys, but i've read this entire thread and not one person is 'frothing' at the mouth, not one person has accused Marler of being an unnice guy, and not one person has aimed anything other than a glance in his direction.

Infact I think 98% of this thread has been reasonably discussed, points from both side put forward, even silly statement of there being no such thing as race, or racism weren't enough to set off a major row.

Look, we ll agree on 2 things...

1) Gypsy boy isnt that bad, it isnt comparable to more sensitive insults of other races etc...

2) Given the circumstances, Marler was a bit silly to say it repeatedly, in front of millions of people, 70 cameras and 50 microphones.

Given that it's easy for everyone to see (Including English fans on here who have reated with a lot of grace and class to be fair when it would've been easy to bury your head or row edge lying issues) there was a failing in dealing with the situation by Eddie Jones, the RFU and 6N panel, of which will be rectified potentially by World rugby.

Had the RFU imposed a quick (his 6N is done), or 6N given him 2 weeks the issue would be gone, however they didn't, it isn't and we are still talking about a minor issue being made major in it's handling.

I personally hope World rugby don't make an example of him, it was a few misguided comments, but they're borderline offensive to some, not to others.

Please stop trying to blame rational thinkers as overtly PC, and part of the problem though, it's a childish overtly faux offense attempt to regain the moral standing.

Those living in a world that never come across anything untoward or nasty, other than the odd Enid Blyton 'wheeze', presumably can be excused their ignorance of why using the term gypsy should cause offence. They could do worse than listen to the Cher song 'Gypsies, tramps and thieves' to get a feel for the perjorative nature of the insult.

World Rugby cannot insulate themselves from the damage such an imprecation may cause to the image of a game that is no longer the preserve of the ruling classes. They have to be sensitive to the wider society that fully understand the meaning of the word and the intent with which it was delivered.

Once this was reported so publicly on TV, the RFU should have imposed a sanction as an example to others that this behaviour was unacceptable. The fact that they didn't now means Marler will inevitabably face a sterner punishment. If that is the case he will also have ruled himself out of Lions contention because the capricious selection panel will undoubtedly not want the adverse criticism.

I preferred I got you babe - she was better as Sonny & Cher I think.

If we need to defer to the law to determine what is a bias statement or not, what is right or wrong, then we are f*cked.

In the big scheme of things, this has nothing to do with the law. It is about right and wrong, it's about us and our sport, how we want to act. and how we want to be perceived by the wider world. Whether the comment was intended as some form of racial incitement, was just stupid, both or neither, doesn't matter. Marler made a douche-like comment, should have received a few weeks ban, and we move on. For all of us who play, have played, coach, or simply watch Rugby, one of the underlying principles of our sport is respect. We beat the hell out of each other during a match then hug and have a beer afterwards. Why is this so difficult?

Would you raise your kids to say that?

People seem to be forgetting one additional factor here that adds weight to a potential sanction for Marler: the fact that he's a rugby international, role model and someone on TV being broadcast to the nation. If he'd called Lee a Fat Pr*ck then I'd expect a ban too. Why? "Hell, it's said all of the time". That's what people tell me on here. And I agree. Similarly quinsforever suggests that calling him an English pr*ck is fine. Again, low end stuff. But it is the fact that it is said on TV, broadcast to millions, kids will pick up on it, etc. THAT is the bit that adds weight to the call for sanction. So what if 'gypsy boy' is low end? So what if Lee is not offended? So what if he'd just called him a plain old 'five knuckle shuffle@r'? It's there recorded for ever. There's standards to maintain, codes of conduct to uphold. The seriousness of his words will/should invoke a sliding scale punishment (some words should get a bigger sanction than others, some less), but at least somewhere on the sliding scale of punishment/sanction/ban he should find himself. If nothing had been caught on camera, heard by Lee, seen/heard by the ref, then this wouldn't be an issue.

Griff wrote:People seem to be forgetting one additional factor here that adds weight to a potential sanction for Marler: the fact that he's a rugby international, role model and someone on TV being broadcast to the nation.  If he'd called Lee a Fat Pr*ck then I'd expect a ban too.  Why?  "Hell, it's said all of the time".  That's what people tell me on here.  And I agree.  Similarly quinsforever suggests that calling him an English pr*ck is fine.  Again, low end stuff.  But it is the fact that it is said on TV, broadcast to millions, kids will pick up on it, etc.  THAT is the bit that adds weight to the call for sanction.  So what if 'gypsy boy' is low end?  So what if Lee is not offended?  So what if he'd just called him a plain old 'five knuckle shuffle@r'?  It's there recorded for ever.  There's standards to maintain, codes of conduct to uphold.  The seriousness of his words will/should invoke a sliding scale punishment (some words should get a bigger sanction than others, some less), but at least somewhere on the sliding scale of punishment/sanction/ban he should find himself.  If nothing had been caught on camera, heard by Lee, seen/heard by the ref, then this wouldn't be an issue.

"Good idea. I'll get Mucka, Ducka, Trucka and Sucka, and you get Spaz."

Seems Marler was racially abused himself during the game getting called a posh English c**t. Story in the daily telegraph this morning.b

And that is not racist. Some of you still seem to be living in the 1970s with no idea of what racism actually is - I suspect a willful refusal to understand by some
On the threads on here we have had the full range of excuses for racists " professionally offended" "PC frothing" " Blowing out of proportion" "Gypsies are not a race" " If its true its not racist"

I suggest a good few folk on here need to learn a little about bias, prejudice and racism this wiki article is a decent place to start https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

UN definition

... any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.(Part 1 of Article 1 of the U.N. International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination)[78]

wrfc1980 wrote:Seems Marler was racially abused himself during the game getting called a posh English c**t. Story in the daily telegraph this morning.b

Yeah but you can't cite 3,000,000 Welsh can you

As the WRU stated 'there is no place for the use of racist language in sport', I take it they will launch an enquiry into not only Rob Evans for calling Samson Lee 'this gypsy' in the WalesOnline article (it's curious how the Wales fans don't talk about that) but also the alleged racist language used by their player/s in saying 'posh English ****' to Marler? If they don't (and they don't issue a firm denial of O'Shea's allegations) it will give credence to Eddie Jones point that this was always a case of sour grapes.

wrfc1980 wrote:Seems Marler was racially abused himself during the game getting called a posh English c**t. Story in the daily telegraph this morning.b

That is worse than Gypsy boy in my opinion.

sticks and stones verses tiddly winks.

pheonix wrote:As the WRU stated 'there is no place for the use of racist language in sport', I take it they will launch an enquiry into not only Rob Evans for calling Samson Lee 'this gypsy' in the WalesOnline article (it's curious how the Wales fans don't talk about that) but also the alleged racist language used by their player/s in saying 'posh English ****' to Marler? If they don't (and they don't issue a firm denial of O'Shea's allegations) it will give credence to Eddie Jones point that this was always a case of sour grapes.

Sour grapes by World Rugby? I don't follow.

Last few comments are of such poor quality and taste, similarly like Jones attitude to the entire thing, it's no wonder certain fans get a poor reputation worldwide with these types of WUMs.

Calling someone a posh English anything is not racist! ( certainly not in this situation) Please go and read up on what racism actually is. Some of you are really stuck in the 70s aren't you with your determination to find racist epithets no problem and your invention of false accusations of racism where none exists in some warped effort to "prove" that Marlers racist comment was not racist.

Google is your friend on this - plenty of data out there if you want to learn.

What a load of sanctimonious twaddle – from both sides of the argument. You all deserve each other.

Mind you, where else are you going to get reference to UK law, the UN, Nazi Germany, Roma, Wiki, the 70s, English toffs and Sonny & Cher. And a gypsy boy of course. Priceless.

TJ wrote:Calling someone a posh English anything is not racist! ( certainly not in this situation)  Please go and read up on what racism actually is.  Some of you are really stuck in the 70s aren't you with your determination to find racist epithets no problem and your invention of false accusations of racism where none exists in some warped effort to "prove" that Marlers racist comment was not racist.

Google is your friend on this - plenty of data out there if you want to learn.

It's as racist as calling somebody Gypsy boy but i'm not surprised that a comment made towards an Englishmen is treated differently, your sanctimonious BS on this quite boring now.

Just so you know racism includes stereotyping, that comment is without doubt an outdated stereotype so using the logic that 'Gypsy Boy' is racist it also is racist.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:What a load of sanctimonious twaddle – from both sides of the argument. You all deserve each other.

Mind you, where else are you going to get reference to UK law, the UN, Nazi Germany, Roma, Wiki, the 70s, English toffs and Sonny & Cher. And a gypsy boy of course. Priceless.

The irony is strong in this one....

Word of the day...

Sanctimonious!

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

TJ wrote:Calling someone a posh English anything is not racist! ( certainly not in this situation)  Please go and read up on what racism actually is.  Some of you are really stuck in the 70s aren't you with your determination to find racist epithets no problem and your invention of false accusations of racism where none exists in some warped effort to "prove" that Marlers racist comment was not racist.

Google is your friend on this - plenty of data out there if you want to learn.

It's as racist as calling somebody Gypsy boy but i'm not surprised that a comment made towards an Englishmen is treated differently, your sanctimonious BS on this quite boring now.

Just so you know racism includes stereotyping, that comment is without doubt an outdated stereotype so using the logic that 'Gypsy Boy' is racist it also is racist.

What utter nonsense. You still clearly have no understanding of what racism is. Being called english in this context is not racist. simple as. Your ignorance and your equating of being called English as worse than being called a gypsy is such ignorant twaddle. You do know I am English don't you?

Stereotyping is not racist as of a matter of course - negative sterotyping based on race, religion or ethnic group is. Now a bit of homework for you. Find a generally accepted definition of racism like the UN one I posted above and show how being called a posh english C*** in these circumstances fits into that definition?

Oh - and I only need one more excuse for racists to call "bingo" now :-)

Is there evidence of this abuse of Marler? Seems strange that it has only been mentioned now.

RiscaGame wrote:Is there evidence of this abuse of Marler? Seems strange that it has only been mentioned now.

Very strange that Connor O'Shea has only just mentioned it, after the caravan comments have come to light. He's been interviewed about the subject twice before and chose not to mention it. A worried man I expect.

TJ

Being called English you are right is not racist but being called a 'Posh English ****' however is both discrimanatory based on ethnicity and a negative stereotype it is therefore by the letter of UK law racist. You have an odd view that racism can only be towards ethnic minorities it is not and your insistence that the mere use of the word Gypsy highlights your lack of understanding on these matters. You can quote the UN or whoever else you want but you do not have a clue how to decipher what you're reading which leads to your somewhat false understanding and 100% false it is.

Racism is discrimination based on either Race or Ethnicity, Marler's ethnicity is White English therefore making a derogatory comment based on that is racism.

TJ wrote:And that is not racist.  Some of you still seem to be living in the 1970s with no idea of what racism actually is - I suspect a willful refusal to understand by some
On the threads on here we have had the full range of excuses for racists " professionally offended"  "PC frothing"  " Blowing out of proportion"  "Gypsies are not a race"  " If its true its not racist"

I suggest a good few folk on here need to learn a little about bias, prejudice and racism  this wiki article is a decent place to start https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

UN definition

   ... any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.(Part 1 of Article 1 of the U.N. International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination)[78]

You are right. Marler's words were clearly racist.

However you are wrong to suggest that Welsh players calling Marler a "posh English c**t" is not racist. It clearly is as it is denigrating someone on the basis of their "race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin".

If insulting someone on the basis of being from a Romany or Traveller background is racist so is insulting someone on the basis of being from an English background. If not then some racial or national backgrounds must be considered better than others which is an inherently racist attitude in itself.

Marler should get a short ban and I suspect he will. The Welsh players should get the same but I doubt they will.

Exiledinborders wrote: The Welsh players should get the same but I doubt they will.

Probably due to lack of any evidence.

bumble wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote: The Welsh players should get the same but I doubt they will.

Probably due to lack of any evidence.

I'm sure Exiled has some proof seeing as he's happy to write that.

To be fair, if Connor O'Shea knows who said it, he should have the balls to bring it to the eharing as he's happy to go to the press with it.

As it has been proven on these boards that abusing the English is perfectly reasonable and acceptable, using whatever terms your like - COS should just stfu.

http://www.wikihow.com/Win-an-Argument-when-You-Know-You-Are-Wrong

Maybe a number of people need to stop reading wiki how hahahaha

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

wrfc1980 wrote:Seems Marler was racially abused himself during the game getting called a posh English c**t. Story in the daily telegraph this morning.b

That is worse than Gypsy boy in my opinion.

Yeah poor English, by far the greatest victims of historical discrimination.

I can understand that being called English would be really upsetting for some people, English, Welsh, White, Pink etc are not racist terms.
The fact is that lines have been drawn across which we cannot cross, whether they have been drawn in the right places or not is irrelevant. Calling someone an English C**t is not racist, nor is Posh English boy go back to your town house! Gypsy boy go back to your caravan unfortunately is.

Rugby Union is on trial as the disciplinary process is in disarray, what if Francis had said that he raked his fingures across Cole's eyes "in the heat of the moment" would that make it OK? If he said it was not intentional, would that be OK? Of course not, both the image of the sport and the health and safety of the players needs to be protected.

[quote="Seagultaf"]I can understand that being called English would be really upsetting for some people, English, Welsh, White, Pink etc are not racist terms.
The fact is that lines have been drawn across which we cannot cross, whether they have been drawn in the right places or not is irrelevant. Calling someone an English C**t is not racist, nor is Posh English boy go back to your town house! Gypsy boy go back to your caravan unfortunately is.
[quote]
Some people seem to have got hold of a strange idea that racism only relates to certain groups. It does not. If I insult a Pakistani based on their national background that is racism. If I do the same to a Scot it is racism. If someone does the same to me based on my English background that is racism.

It is an utterly bizarre idea to suggest that it is OK to abuse one person based on their race or nationality but not someone else.

Exiledinborders wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:I can understand that being called English would be really upsetting for some people, English, Welsh, White, Pink etc are not racist terms.
The fact is that lines have been drawn across which we cannot cross, whether they have been drawn in the right places or not is irrelevant. Calling someone an English C**t is not racist, nor is Posh English boy go back to your town house! Gypsy boy go back to your caravan unfortunately is.

Some people seem to have got hold of a strange idea that racism only relates to certain groups. It does not. If I insult a Pakistani based on their national background that is racism. If I do the same to a Scot it is racism. If someone does the same to me based on my English background that is racism.

It is an utterly bizarre idea to suggest that it is OK to abuse one person based on their race or nationality but not someone else.

You are missing the point, it may not be very nice but it's not illegal to insult someone because they are English, Welsh, White etc. But other insulting certain minority ethnic groups, including Gypsies, because of their origin is illegal and classed as racism.

The problem in this incident is not what Marler said as Samson is not in the slightest bit upset by it, it's the fact that the 6N did not deal with it. To say that "it was in the heat of the moment" is ridiculous. The next time a player gets gouged, stamped on or tip tackled, will "it was in the heat of the moment" be a valid defence?

Seagultaf wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:I can understand that being called English would be really upsetting for some people, English, Welsh, White, Pink etc are not racist terms.
The fact is that lines have been drawn across which we cannot cross, whether they have been drawn in the right places or not is irrelevant. Calling someone an English C**t is not racist, nor is Posh English boy go back to your town house! Gypsy boy go back to your caravan unfortunately is.

Some people seem to have got hold of a strange idea that racism only relates to certain groups. It does not. If I insult a Pakistani based on their national background that is racism. If I do the same to a Scot it is racism. If someone does the same to me based on my English background that is racism.

It is an utterly bizarre idea to suggest that it is OK to abuse one person based on their race or nationality but not someone else.

You are missing the point, it may not be very nice but it's not illegal to insult someone because they are English, Welsh, White etc. But other insulting certain minority ethnic groups, including Gypsies, because of their origin is illegal and classed as racism.

The problem in this incident is not what Marler said as Samson is not in the slightest bit upset by it, it's the fact that the 6N did not deal with it. To say that "it was in the heat of the moment" is ridiculous. The next time a player gets gouged, stamped on or tip tackled, will "it was in the heat of the moment" be a valid defence?

That's not how the law works at all, it does differentiate between being an ethnic majority or an ethnic minority, it is illegal to make derogatory comments to someone because they are English or Welsh just like it is they are a Gypsy or Pakistani. Baffling to think anyone believes that you cannot be racist to a white Englishmen.