World T20 Final England vs West Indies

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I thought this now warranted a separate thread. We have a final that not many would have predicted either team would make, and a combination of finalists that probably no-one predicted!

Hoping for a good game but ultimately an England win

Good feckin lord

Get a single lad

Bloody hell.

Wow. Well f*cking done windiest. Well f*cking done.

Anyone have a few quid on the double?

What a last over!

Unbelievable hitting, unbelievable choke from Stokes there

I lost 50 pounds. But over the moon.

That is pretty gutting really

Gutted and amazed in equal measure. Poor stokes.

Choked

Incredible finish.

Incredible from Brathwaite, heartbreaking for Stokes.

well simply amazing hitting from Brathwaite at the end there. Yes Stokes didn't quite hit his yorkers, though the last three weren't that far off, but stunning clean hitting. Well done WI

Awful execution by stokes, four deliveries right in the slot. Great hitting by Brathwaite, but that's very poor from someone who's been so good

Well, at least we can say the shortest form of cricket suits the West Indies down to a tee. Well played!

Braithwaite has got some insane hitting power. God almighty. Commiserations to England and stokes. Congratulations to Windiest, Samuels for the hard work getting windies near the end and Brathwaite for the savage glorious coup de gras

I wouldn't have put stokes to bowl the last over. Not because he isn't good enough. He is. It's just that I would have given it to someone who would have bowled an over before, being worried that a loosener would getting the ball rolling in terms of momentum.

Champion ,everybody know west indies are champion.

U19, women t20 now the men .

I think we should stop play test cricket and just concentrate on t20 and odi.

T20 is the future anyway

djkbrown2001 wrote:Champion ,everybody know west indies are champion.

U19, women t20  now the men .

I think we should stop play test cricket and just concentrate  on t20 and odi.

T20 is the future anyway

Congrats again what an incredible achievement across 3 tourneys.

ShahenshahG wrote:I wouldn't have put stokes to bowl the last over. Not because he isn't good enough. He is. It's just that I would have given it to someone who would have bowled an over before, being worried that a loosener would getting the ball rolling in terms of momentum.

Ah he's done it before well, just didn't come off this time unfortunately. Such a shame

Also Paul Newman is a massive thunder c*nt (see his Twitter)

Someone said. Only afghanistan can beat west indies.

Lol.

Samuels two higest scores in t20 finals . Big game player.

Olly wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:I wouldn't have put stokes to bowl the last over. Not because he isn't good enough. He is. It's just that I would have given it to someone who would have bowled an over before, being worried that a loosener would getting the ball rolling in terms of momentum.

Ah he's done it before well, just didn't come off this time unfortunately. Such a shame

Yes, in this type of run chase it's often the penultimate over that is considered the most important. We - Morgan the captain, Jordan the bowler - got that pretty much spot on. I'll need to see the final over again but my immediate reaction isn't to blame Stokes - sometimes you just have to applaud the batsman.

I'd sooner congratulate Brathwaite than castigate Stokes. His first ball was poor but the others were attempted yorkers that didn't quite work...and a powerful hitter nailed each one. If he'd tried short balls and been smashed he'd have been crucified for that...

You could say if Root had bowled a second over earlier - or Moeen had bowled one - there might have been no need for Stokes to bowl that over. Or it might have been over earlier...

Great game. Well done West Indies. And well done England to get as close as that in a tournament few really gave them a big chance.

The next one is in 2020 in Australia. Why the 4 year gap I wonder?

This format must really be struggling... not much real world interest obviously.

Aye I know. No guarantee anyone else would have done better than stokes. I think raf will be getting drunk right now.

They should do away with champions trophy and do t20 every 2 years.

The Loaded Dog wrote:The next one is in 2020 in Australia. Why the 4 year gap I wonder?

This format must really be struggling... not much real world interest obviously.

I'll be renting a room In your house TLD. Just don't tell the security services.

"This is for Shane Warne" says Samuels upon receiving his MOTM trophy

Glorious

alfie wrote:I'd sooner congratulate Brathwaite than castigate Stokes.  His first ball was poor but the others were attempted yorkers that didn't quite work...and a powerful hitter nailed each one.  If he'd tried short balls and been smashed he'd have been crucified for that...

You could say if Root had bowled a second over earlier - or Moeen had bowled one - there might have been no need for Stokes to bowl that over.  Or it might have been over earlier...

Great game.  Well done West Indies.  And well done England to get as close as that in a tournament few really gave them a big chance.

Aye I wasn't castigating stokes. Just wondering about the wisdom about putting in a bowler who hasn't bowled in a while for the last over. But as olly pointed out he has done it before so there was no reason to think he couldn't again.

I suspect England's initial plan will have been to bowl Stokes the 18th and 20th as they've done in the previous games. But Willey picking up two wickets in the 14th meant Morgan wanted to bowl him out instead (fair enough). Stokes was always going to be the go-to man for the final over, and as guildford said there's a feeling the penultimate over is actually the most important in these situations, so England went to their best death bowler for that.

No, for me nothing wrong with bowling Stokes the 20th, it was the logical choice, but just great hitting from Brathwaite and Stokes not quite hitting his marks. Think the first ball he was anticipating Brathwaite backing away to hit through the off-side, which was mostly vacant, hence the direction.

The one thing I felt England could have done a touch more of is the wide yorker, particularly the way Samuels sets himself up it should be a very rewarding delivery, but other than that... Nice to see the game still has a place for the old-fashioned hunch, with Root opening the bowling. And once more, well done WI, thought they'd blown it by giving themselves too much to do at the end, but Brathwaite came up trumps.

Good finish. Excellent hitting from Brathwaite towards the end, but I feared Stokes had mentally collapsed after the first ball was clobbered.

Hope Stokes doesn't beat himself up too much - his double-century in South Africa will be remembered for far longer after the memory of this tournament has faded.

It's been a really great winter of cricket for England in all formats

Some incredibly exciting cricketers coming through, some very good times ahead

The Loaded Dog wrote:The next one is in 2020 in Australia. Why the 4 year gap I wonder?

This format must really be struggling... not much real world interest obviously.

They need more time to think of way to completely eradicate the associate members out of the competition.

Hours later, I can't think of anything to post... Heartbreaking!

Proud of England
Chuffed for West Indies
Love David Willey
In awe of that final over from Brathwaite
Ben Stokes should think no more about it - pick himself up and carry on with a career that is going to be amazing. First ball aside, I dont even think he bowled particularly badly. Not 24 off 4 badly!!

Great tournament England.
Great tournament everyone. Superb entertainment.

I feel sorry for England
and a proud moment for WI cricket

celebration deserves a separate thread

djkbrown2001 wrote:I lost 50 pounds.  But over the moon.

Over the moon too...and £140 richer!

Strings Philander wrote:Hours later, I can't think of anything to post... Heartbreaking!

Proud of England
Chuffed for West Indies
Love David Willey
In awe of that final over from Brathwaite
Ben Stokes should think no more about it - pick himself up and carry on with a career that is going to be amazing. First ball aside, I dont even think he bowled particularly badly. Not 24 off 4 badly!!

Great tournament England.
Great tournament everyone. Superb entertainment.

Strings this post sums up my thoughts perfectly

The performances with the ball of Rashid and Plunkett should not be overlooked either, both were very good. David Willey was immense, it is absolutely criminal that we bat him at 9. He should be 7, at the very least 8. And his bowling especially first up was outstanding and has been most of the tournament. He loves the big moment doesn't he! (Think of all his Northants t20 finals performances)

Shame we couldn't get it done with the bat. Hales and Morgan in particular had an awful tournament (strange for Hales coming off that wonderful ODI series in SA). Roy, Root and Buttler all stars with the bat during the tournament, I can't get over how good Joe Root is!

I need to get myself some tickets to go see this lot in action this summer....

Olly wrote:It's been a really great winter of cricket for England in all formats

Some incredibly exciting cricketers coming through, some very good times ahead

Absolutely. Four test series this year, all against sub-continent opposition, and England should be expectant of victory in all four.

A brilliant game of cricket. Well done to the West Indies. Samuels and brathwaite were superb.

England,
Morgan so out of form, should he be in the side?
Why did Moeen Ali not bowl? May as well of played Vince or Billings?

Morgan is extremly problematic. He was lucky to keep a place and get the captaincy ( or unlucky depending how you look at it) in the first place...and even luckier to keep a place and the capatincy post 50 over world cup .... but was then seen as a big part of Englands cultural revolution and did breifly hit real form again through summer and autumn 2015 (7 50's and a century in 10 50 over innings, 2 50's and a not out 45 from 5 T20 innings ...all against good opposition)
Hes now the captian of the second best T20 side England have had, and the nearest thing to agood 50 overs side I can remember them having.

But as a force in batting is he yesterdays man? Its not really since 2012 that hes consitently managed to excel. His post world cup resurgance has been sandwiched by real slumps. He doesnt bowl and isnt a special fielder, England have guys like Taylor and Vince banging on the door as specialist batsmen. Bairstow was perhaps unlucky not to make the squad (or sidelined to concenrtate on tests).
Then again Jason Roy has had one good innings in his entire international career. Hales hasnt passed 30 in T20s since September 2014 (ok hes had a rather better run in 50 overs cricket).


Is Root ready to be captain without puting too much on him as senior batsman and opening bowler? Can you cak your Capatin after almost winning a world cup? I doubt hes ready to retire and is still young enough to be around for a few years. He doesnt carry the baggage of being in the test team and can go to IPL/BBL and bring that experience back to the team, and focus on the limited over formats in a way that other candidates (candiadate) cant.

Werent England suppossed to be a side that didnt mind if batsmen got out cheaply so long as they tried to score quickly? England have guys like Plunkett, Willey and Ali in the tail for a reason.

I honestly cant see them showing hmim the door, and I dont see him walking just yet. If he continues to struggle in 50 overs through the summer and results head South then there may be a stronger drive to make that change.

Good points - I'd just about keep Morgan for now but he needs to get back into form with the bat

The players I would leave out are Stokes and Ali - nothing to do with yesterday just that I'd rather save them for Tests as I think they have a more important role to play there. I'd rather see us identify more T20 specialists such as Willey and Rashid.

Stokes and Ali are Test quality players which I think is harder to find so I'd rather they weren't messed around chopping between the formats

I'll be the one to say it:
Stokes bowled poorly. Back of a length is Braithwaite's weak zone. The yorker/full length is his wheelhouse. Now yorker is obviously Stokes' strength as well but after the second six he really should have changed it up. Supreme clean hitting from Carlos who I rate a lot but it was done under what would for him qualify as "ideal conditions"

kingraf wrote:I'll be the one to say it:
Stokes bowled poorly. Back of a length is Braithwaite's weak zone. The yorker/full length is his wheelhouse. Now yorker is obviously Stokes' strength as well but after the second six he really should have changed it up. Supreme clean hitting from Carlos who I rate a lot but it was done under what would for him qualify as "ideal conditions"

I agree - Stokes has a decent bouncer and I did think after the first 2 sailed into the stands that might be a good surprise option

We do have to remember though that Stokes is far from a limited overs death bowling specialist. Essentially England stumbled across him as an option in the games vs SL and NZ where he did very well and then of course they are going to back him in the final

I think England need to identify some better death options in general - for ODIs as well

VTR wrote:

kingraf wrote:I'll be the one to say it:
Stokes bowled poorly. Back of a length is Braithwaite's weak zone. The yorker/full length is his wheelhouse. Now yorker is obviously Stokes' strength as well but after the second six he really should have changed it up. Supreme clean hitting from Carlos who I rate a lot but it was done under what would for him qualify as "ideal conditions"

I agree - Stokes has a decent bouncer and I did think after the first 2 sailed into the stands that might be a good surprise option

We do have to remember though that Stokes is far from a limited overs death bowling specialist. Essentially England stumbled across him as an option in the games vs SL and NZ where he did very well and then of course they are going to back him in the final

I think England need to identify some better death options in general  - for ODIs as well

Poinbt of order : A few days ago England and the world media were trumpeting him as the death bowler specialist and the guy who performs best under pressure situations when he bowled those final overs against Sri Lanka.

Yesterdays hero todays zero I guess.

Maybe he was following orders/ a pre determined theory. Maybe he just didnt expect a guy whos not even scored 24 runs in his enstire T20 career to hit him for 4 consectivue sixes even if he served him Geoff Boycotts mums best pies. Anything but wides and no balls shouldve been enough. As it was the guy pulled something out of the bag hes never come close to doing before.

The West Indies won because they turned up and wanted it in a way they havent far too often in otehr games (as well as actually literally turning up with their first choice side which happens far too infrequently)

Its interesting to hear stiuff coming from Sammy following up on Samuels rather "emotional" press conference making similar points - they were genuinely aggreived at some of the things that had been said about them as people, as well as the shenanigans with their own board and getting their payments (hey we arent mercenaries!). Stokes rankled them in the game, Warne befor it and Nicolas ast the start of the tournament.
Playing angry can go wrong, but for an agressive style and if its used to pull a team together and extract maximum effort this is what can happen. People can do things they dont normally do.

Stokes final over was poor, his first 2 banks were right in the slot, his third was decent, didn't see the 4th properly

He should have tried something different like a slower ball after the first 6

And in terms of bowlers, I would got an over out of moeen or root earlier, and would have had Willey final over with Jordan 19th

KO-KING wrote:Stokes final over was poor, his first 2 banks were right in the slot, his third was decent, didn't see the 4th properly

He should have tried something different like a slower ball after the first 6

I'm not convinced he has the confidence or experience to bowl those variations at the death. That's my point I suppose, he has developed as a decent yorker/full length death option but is he an adaptable death bowler with some variations up his sleeve? Not a criticism of him as I don't think its a role he has had any chance to develop before this tournament

Gooseberry wrote:Morgan is extremly problematic. He was lucky to keep a place and get the captaincy ( or unlucky depending how you look at it) in the first place...and even luckier to keep a place and the capatincy post 50 over world cup .... but was then seen as a big part of Englands cultural revolution and did breifly hit real form again through summer and autumn 2015 (7 50's and a century in 10 50 over innings, 2 50's and a not out 45 from 5 T20 innings ...all against good opposition)
Hes now the captian of the second best T20 side England have had, and the nearest thing to agood 50 overs side I can remember them having.

But as a force in batting is he yesterdays man? Its not really since 2012 that hes consitently managed to excel.  His post world cup resurgance has been sandwiched by real slumps. He doesnt bowl and isnt a special fielder, England have guys like Taylor and Vince banging on the door as specialist batsmen. Bairstow was perhaps unlucky not to make the squad (or sidelined to concenrtate on tests).
Then again Jason Roy has had one good innings in his entire international career. Hales hasnt passed 30 in T20s since September 2014 (ok hes had a rather better run in 50 overs cricket).


Is Root ready to be captain without puting too much on him as senior batsman and opening bowler? Can you cak your Capatin after almost winning a world cup? I doubt hes ready to retire and is still young enough to be around for a few years. He doesnt carry the baggage of being in the test team and can go to IPL/BBL and bring that experience back to the team, and focus on the limited over formats in a way that other candidates (candiadate) cant.

Werent England suppossed to be a side that didnt mind if batsmen got out cheaply so long as they tried to score quickly? England have guys like Plunkett, Willey and Ali in the tail for a reason.

I honestly cant see them showing hmim the door, and I dont see him walking just yet. If he continues to struggle in 50 overs through the summer and results head South then there may be a stronger drive to make that change.

Do feel too much is being said in hindsight and failing to give sufficient credit to Brathwaite's batting at the very end. If not for the latter, wouldn't many now be saluting Captain Morgan whilst ridiculing ''passenger'' Sammy? That description of the Windies captain seems to have been quietly dropped.

I appreciate we should never let facts get in the way of a point. However, some might see it as only fair to point out that in Jason Roy's entire international career, he's scored one ODI century and three half-centuries plus a MoM 78 in this World T20 semi-final and a massively quick off the blocks 43 which shaped England's win against South Africa and should have got him MoM there also in the eyes of some judges (well, me anyway ).

As my last sentence above shows, we're all going to have some bias but let's try and throw some facts in along the way.

Now who wants to talk about Chris Jordan?

Am not blaming stokes don't think anyone is either, although I said he choked during the match, that's with emotion though. In reflection he wasn't good enough, he could have and should have gone for a wide yorker even a bouncer, but 3 out of 4 were right in the slot, but Willey and Jordan should have finished off really

Chris Jordan - improved into a consistent and valuable performer, one of the first names on the T20 teamsheet now

What I hope doesn't happen though is England convince themselves he is good enough for other formats. Might sound like a back-handed compliment but I think the 3 formats are so different now there will be some players who are only suited to one. Nothing wrong with that, and its something England finally seem to be catching up on