European rugby, the interest just isn't there

First topic message reminder :

I know I will get a bashing off some quarters on here, but sorry it has to be said, looking at the crowds for the two semi-finals on the weekend, it would seem the interest is not there. The aggregate figure for the two games was a paltry 38,968 people, there was more people than that for the Cardiff Blues V Leicester semi final a few years ago 44,212 turned up that day.

This proves that the greedy club owners have ruined a once prestigious competition, admired by thousands and getting better year on year. Where are all these new massive sponsorship deals ? Where is all this money we are supposed to be swimming in ? 

All I saw on the weekend was empty seats, the future of the European club competition for me looks bleak, dwindling crowds, the same teams ALL the time in the knockout stages, lack of interest, the French already consider their own league a priority, for me something drastic needs to be done as it would seem the writing is on the wall for one of our favourite club competitions, it's sad, as it's been well and truly ruined by the greedy club owners.

Take a read of some of these, you might find them interesting:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/04/25/empty-seats-as-saracens-and-racing-92-won-through-must-be-a-wake/
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/much-better-europe-champions-cup-11238143

rodders wrote:The Irish, Welsh, Scots and Italians should pull out of this sham and set up their own competition where they play each other... maybe sell the coverage rights to sky sports.

You mean like in that world class, watched by millions competition the Pro12?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fans need to change that view then Fanster.

Fair point Notch, I'll watch what's on, some won't. I'd say that I'd be more likely to watch a Clermont vs Munster than Saracens vs Wasps in the Euro comp as it's 2 teams that don't play every season but that applies over Munster vs Glasgow. I'm not bothered they're from different countries, it's a game thats played every year.

So you want the culture of hundreds of thousands of people to change and start supporting English and French teams? Are you being serious?

Tell that to a Welsh public who refused to go a mere few miles down the road to support their regional club.

Human nature doesn't change because you tell it to, and thats why this comp has a very near limit. Audiences in England and France are larger than anywhere else now, but have nowhere to go, alienating the Celtic people, and refusing to impliment a system that over time starts to include mainland europe is just short term profiting.

I agree with a lot of other people, in that I see a lot of Celtic teams start to use the comp as a development structure, once the Pro 12 kick the Italians out, there'll be more euro spots for the others to use.

So we're leaning towards that it is the fault of the organisers and ticket prices, both of which form part of the new competition. So surely this IS the fault of the new competition? Why do so many English just want to just slag off the Welsh and Pro12 teams rather than discuss this?

Not about supporting other teams Fanster, you won't get English people who support Saints, supporting Tigers in Europe. You can watch and enjoy it though.

It does come across as kicking up a fuss because the Pro 12 teams have underachieved for a few reasons this season.

rodders wrote:The Irish, Welsh, Scots and Italians should pull out of this sham and set up their own competition where they play each other... maybe sell the coverage rights to sky sports.

Loving your work Rodders

mikey_dragon wrote:So we're leaning towards that it is the fault of the organisers and ticket prices, both of which form part of the new competition. So surely this IS the fault of the new competition? Why do so many English just want to just slag off the Welsh and Pro12 teams rather than discuss this?

The best way to affect ticket prices is to not attend.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:So we're leaning towards that it is the fault of the organisers and ticket prices, both of which form part of the new competition. So surely this IS the fault of the new competition? Why do so many English just want to just slag off the Welsh and Pro12 teams rather than discuss this?

The best way to affect ticket prices is to not attend.

That semi-final should have taken care of that then.

Hopefully. Some prices are horrendous.

there is nothing about the structure this season or last that has contributed to results on the pitch. the provinces are going through a transitional period and are struggling to compete with the english clubs in particular, who themselves are benefiting from having very settled sides now, having been through their own transitional period a few years ago.

the clubs dont get any of the money from semi final and final bums on seats. nor do they set ticket prices.

one of the great ironies of this of course, is that when the provinces do pull their thumbs out of their behinds and start competing again, and putting bums on seats in semi and final.....the great beneficiaries will be the...EPCR....

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not about supporting other teams Fanster, you won't get English people who support Saints, supporting Tigers in Europe. You can watch and enjoy it though.

It does come across as kicking up a fuss because the Pro 12 teams have underachieved for a few reasons this season.

It's about fringe inclusion though, when Sarries make the final they might just play in front of 50k, of which I suspect less than 10k Sarries supporters. Now Lyon play D2 don't they, and average a few thousand? I'm willing to bet a lot of Lyon supporters go to the game, and will support the French team over the English. This is tribal.

When and if the final is played in a Celtic stadium, or Itlain, are the fringe supporters going to be interested in going to watch an all English or French final? Next year could see a record low for a final.

Lonjevity of this tournament has been comprimised so a certain few people can have a big payday.

So it comes back to underachieving Pro 12 teams. That was going to happen without structure changes though.

mikey_dragon wrote:So we're leaning towards that it is the fault of the organisers and ticket prices, both of which form part of the new competition. So surely this IS the fault of the new competition? Why do so many English just want to just slag off the Welsh and Pro12 teams rather than discuss this?

Oh the organisers have made mistakes, of that there is no doubt. But there is a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth over problems that are nothing to do with the change in the competition format. But that does not stop the wailers and gnashers apparently claim otherwise.

When you get comments that imply the death of European rugby because one less Italian whipping boy is allowed into the group stages there are going to be responses. Pointing out that Pro12 teams haven't done well this year is not slagging them off its just stating facts. It has been different in the past and will be different in the future. It is not that long ago when it was pretty much just Sarries from the AP at the business end of the competition and they always failed so the wailing and gnashing was for English teams. It's not England's fault that Welsh teams are crap in Europe like it wasn't Ireland's fault that England were crap in Europe a few years ago.

Its also not surprising that a Welsh team isn't going to get 'bums on seats' for a European game if its expensive, they can watch it on TV, and most importantly they are not expecting to do well. I am sure that if, say, the Scarlets got to the QF's playing brilliant rugby and got a good tie that they expected to win, and (yes) if it was marketed well, there would be no shortage of demand for seats.

rodders wrote:The Irish, Welsh, Scots and Italians should pull out of this sham and set up their own competition where they play each other... maybe sell the coverage rights to sky sports.

I would not pull out, I would do what I have been suggesting for a long time, lets use it as a development tool. We should play all the CC/DC players more in the league, and use Europe to develop our fringe and squad players, we will get the same money out of it regardless, and lets face it the French are doing this with the second tier anyway.

Imagine the boost the Pro12 would get if we had all our star players playing every/most weekends. The sponsors would be queuing up at the door, and I am sure we would see more bums on seats as well.

lost

In your criticism of the Welsh regions your forgetting a few years ago (in the old comp) Cardiff hosted more fans in their semi final with Leicester than both of this years semis combined...

So do you still beleive Welsh regions would struggle to engage fans if they made the latter stages of a tournament that is designed to promote English and Frnehc clubs?

The comp isn't designed to promote the English or French though.

Fanster wrote:lost

In your criticism of the Welsh regions your forgetting a few years ago (in the old comp) Cardiff hosted more fans in their semi final with Leicester than both of this years semis combined...

So do you still beleive Welsh regions would struggle to engage fans if they made the latter stages of a tournament that is designed to promote English and Frnehc clubs?

OK can you possibly give a coherent, well constructed (and preferably concise) argument as to how the tournament is designed to promote English and French clubs?

Why do BT only show games with English teams involved ?

I have a better idea, give me 3 restructure plans that would in any way benefit an Italian team?

Probably the tv rights they paid for?

LordDowlais wrote:

rodders wrote:The Irish, Welsh, Scots and Italians should pull out of this sham and set up their own competition where they play each other... maybe sell the coverage rights to sky sports.

I would not pull out, I would do what I have been suggesting for a long time, lets use it as a development tool. We should play all the CC/DC players more in the league, and use Europe to develop our fringe and squad players, we will get the same money out of it regardless, and lets face it the French are doing this with the second tier anyway.

Imagine the boost the Pro12 would get if we had all our star players playing every/most weekends. The sponsors would be queuing up at the door, and I am sure we would see more bums on seats as well.

Dangerous game there as the guarantee will only last until the next negotiation. Downgrading participation will potentially lead to a tapering off as an investment by TV & sponsors. It is clear which league needs the funds to sustain their business model and which doesn't. That will not be acceptable to Pro12 management who will be protecting their own positions.

However perhaps it might not be a bad idea in order to recalibrate priorities as Unions have discovered that their monopoly does not generate increasing finance unlike the open ended commercial approach from numerous stakeholders in privately owned leagues, which thus far have generated commercial scale.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Probably the tv rights they paid for?

You mean the extra few euros they received in a market that exploded around them? Or to regenrate 2 club squads that were lost during negotiation?

How has that extra money done them this season?

Sorry was answering LD. I don't think a Euro comp should be paying for individual clubs to improve.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Probably the tv rights they paid for?

OK, so that would lead me to believe that BT are not interested in other teams fro Europe, would you agree ? Thus, it would also lead me to the possibility that BT are not really interested in an European competition, and regarding that the lions share of the funding comes from the BT deal, then the future deas not look bright for Europe, does it ?

I'd say they are playing to their Aviva Prem market currently though I haven't seen the list of games they've shown this year; have you a link? Why would it look bleak?

Recwatcher16 wrote:Dangerous game there as the guarantee will only last until the next negotiation. Downgrading participation will potentially lead to a tapering off as an investment by TV & sponsors.

OK, then should the French teams get their participation fees reduced for treating the second tier competition with disdain ? 

Or for that matter any clubs who field weaker teams, like when they know they will not qualify from their group and decide to rest players for their own league ambitions ?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sorry was answering LD. I don't think a Euro comp should be paying for individual clubs to improve.

Oh my bad lol

The point is that a euro comp shouldn't be paying to help teams improve (despite that being part of the eargument for reform), but it shouldn't directly anhialate a nations teams without accepting responsibility.

Has anyone looked at the crisis in Italy right now and put their hands up? PRL, LNR, and RRW should all do that, instead the media jackals circle them and discuss kicking them out without cause!!!

i for one am hugely excited about seeing a first english winner of both euro comps for many years.

sarries have dominated domestic and european rugby this season and thoroughly deserve to be in the final. pretty good for a team that apparently only plays non-rugby. and contrary to many's opinions, with so many of the england 6N squad in their team, Saracens will indeed be well supported by casual rugby fans. I understand why other club fans don't like them. But i'm sure Sky and BT will be able to get some eyeballs on a game featuring Vunipola x2, Farrell (if not banned ), Ashton, Barritt, George, Itoje, Kruis, Goode et al playing against a Racing Metro led by Dan Carter.

mouthwatering.

LordDowlais wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Dangerous game there as the guarantee will only last until the next negotiation. Downgrading participation will potentially lead to a tapering off as an investment by TV & sponsors.

OK, then should the French teams get their participation fees reduced for treating the second tier competition with disdain ? 

Or for that matter any clubs who field weaker teams, like when they know they will not qualify from their group and decide to rest players for their own league ambitions ?

and how many pro12 teams are even in the 2nd tier comp?

quinsforever wrote:and how many pro12 teams are even in the 2nd tier comp?

5 this year 6 next year. I think.

Fanster wrote:I have a better idea, give me 3 restructure plans that would in any way benefit an Italian team?

Restructure in what way? and that is about making propositions. You made a statement which you are not (yet?) backing up

quinsforever wrote:i for one am hugely excited about seeing a first english winner of both euro comps for many years.

sarries have dominated domestic and european rugby this season and thoroughly deserve to be in the final. pretty good for a team that apparently only plays non-rugby. and contrary to many's opinions, with so many of the england 6N squad in their team, Saracens will indeed be well supported by casual rugby fans. I understand why other club fans don't like them. But i'm sure Sky and BT will be able to get some eyeballs on a game featuring Vunipola x2, Farrell (if not banned ), Ashton, Barritt, George, Itoje, Kruis, Goode et al playing against a Racing Metro led by Dan Carter.

mouthwatering.

Mentioning those guys in line with England's top current-playing internationals is priceless, but mentioning them all in the same breath as the greatest player to have graced the game . You're either extremely delusional or that's a really poor wum.

quinsforever wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Dangerous game there as the guarantee will only last until the next negotiation. Downgrading participation will potentially lead to a tapering off as an investment by TV & sponsors.

OK, then should the French teams get their participation fees reduced for treating the second tier competition with disdain ? 

Or for that matter any clubs who field weaker teams, like when they know they will not qualify from their group and decide to rest players for their own league ambitions ?

and how many pro12 teams are even in the 2nd tier comp?

Well,one just knocked an Aviva team out of the comp at home in the quarters..

quinsforever wrote:i for one am hugely excited about seeing a first english winner of both euro comps for many years.

sarries have dominated domestic and european rugby this season and thoroughly deserve to be in the final. pretty good for a team that apparently only plays non-rugby. and contrary to many's opinions, with so many of the england 6N squad in their team, Saracens will indeed be well supported by casual rugby fans. I understand why other club fans don't like them. But i'm sure Sky and BT will be able to get some eyeballs on a game featuring Vunipola x2, Farrell (if not banned ), Ashton, Barritt, George, Itoje, Kruis, Goode et al playing against a Racing Metro led by Dan Carter.

mouthwatering.

Can this truly be said? Of the 8? games theyve played so far 6 have been against French or English opposition. Infact if they win the cup they will have almost exclusively played against French or English teams, with ulster fixtures inluded. That is a pretty depressing thought, no wonder Sarries fans aren't interested. Infact the only interesting match if I was a Sarries fan would be Tollouse away in round 6, and come round 5 after Toulouse had given up and Sarries were through I probably would've sold my ticket...

Fanster wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sorry was answering LD. I don't think a Euro comp should be paying for individual clubs to improve.

Oh my bad lol

The point is that a euro comp shouldn't be paying to help teams improve (despite that being part of the eargument for reform), but it shouldn't directly anhialate a nations teams without accepting responsibility.

Has anyone looked at the crisis in Italy right now and put their hands up? PRL, LNR, and RRW should all do that, instead the media jackals circle them and discuss kicking them out without cause!!!

Italy are lucky to have a team in the comp; they shouldn't on ability. Pro 12s lack of support to Italian clubs is a separate issue.

lostinwales wrote:

Fanster wrote:I have a better idea, give me 3 restructure plans that would in any way benefit an Italian team?

Restructure in what way? and that is about making propositions. You made a statement which you are not (yet?) backing up

I made a statement of this competition directed to English and French domination, see this years quarter finals as evidence of outcome.

If you think this is a coincidence, then please tell me how during the reform and with the claims that the reform would help everyone, how exactly Zebre and Treviso have benefited?

Fanster you said the comp promotes certain teams, how?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Fanster wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sorry was answering LD. I don't think a Euro comp should be paying for individual clubs to improve.

Oh my bad lol

The point is that a euro comp shouldn't be paying to help teams improve (despite that being part of the eargument for reform), but it shouldn't directly anhialate a nations teams without accepting responsibility.

Has anyone looked at the crisis in Italy right now and put their hands up? PRL, LNR, and RRW should all do that, instead the media jackals circle them and discuss kicking them out without cause!!!

Italy are lucky to have a team in the comp; they shouldn't on ability. Pro 12s lack of support to Italian clubs is a separate issue.

Lucky to be included in a european comp? This is why noone likes it, statements like this are awfull!! Especially as their ability is a direct result of the PRL power grab.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fanster you said the comp promotes certain teams, how?

Not certain teams, English and French clubs. Stop trying to move the goalposts and answer some of the question surrounding...

quinsforever wrote: But i'm sure Sky and BT will be able to get some eyeballs on a game featuring Vunipola x2, Farrell (if not banned ), Ashton, Barritt, George, Itoje, Kruis, Goode et al playing against a Racing Metro led by Dan Carter.

mouthwatering.

Racing manage to scrape One player onto Quinn's 'To-Drool-For' list

....mouthwatering indeed!

And doesn't name a single Non RFU player for Saracens

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote: But i'm sure Sky and BT will be able to get some eyeballs on a game featuring Vunipola x2, Farrell (if not banned ), Ashton, Barritt, George, Itoje, Kruis, Goode et al playing against a Racing Metro led by Dan Carter.

mouthwatering.

Racing manage to scrape One player onto Quinn's 'To-Drool-For' list

....mouthwatering indeed!  

my drool list has lots more than that on in from Racing. i was talking about what might get the "casual" rugby fan to watch. personally i am excited to see Ben Arous, Chat, Charteris, Nyanga, Le Roux, MAsoe, MAchenaud, Carter, laulala, imhoff and rococoko.

munkian wrote:And doesn't name a single Non RFU player for Saracens

obviously, if you had read my full post, you would have realised the names i mentioned were specifically for the "casual" eyeballs Bt/SKY will be looking to attract for the final. see my comment above to fly.

Fanster wrote:Can this truly be said? Of the 8? games theyve played so far 6 have been against French or English opposition. Infact if they win the cup they will have almost exclusively played against French or English teams, with ulster fixtures inluded. That is a pretty depressing thought, no wonder Sarries fans aren't interested. Infact the only interesting match if I was a Sarries fan would be Tollouse away in round 6, and come round 5 after Toulouse had given up and Sarries were through I probably would've sold my ticket...

Including the final Saracens will have played 7 (out of 9) games against teams they don't already play at least twice a year. In 2012 Ulster played 4 out 9 games against opposition they didn't play twice every year. Not really sure why you're lumping English teams and French teams together as though they play each other all the time.

It's nice to see one neutral excited for the final... One.

saracens can only beat the opposition in front of them. which they have done in europe 100% this season. the only team to do so. AND, they only had 1 pro12 team in their group Ulster as opposed to easier groups with 2....

Board of Directors
EPCR is managed through a 12-person Board of Directors, which represents all shareholders, and includes an independent chairman. The nine shareholders, by country, are listed below:[3]

England - Rugby Football Union, Premiership Rugby Limited
France - Fédération Française de Rugby, Ligue Nationale de Rugby
Ireland - Irish Rugby Football Union
Italy - Federazione Italiana Rugby
Scotland - Scottish Rugby Union
Wales - Welsh Rugby Union, Regional Rugby Wales

As of 4 May 2015, the independent chairman will be ex-England rugby player Simon Halliday, whose appointment was announced 29 April 2015.[4]

Executive Committee
There is also an Executive Committee, in charge of commercial matters relating to the tournaments, and preparations for Board meetings. This committee includes the Independent Chairman, Director-General, and three voting representatives, one representing each of the major European domestic leagues, the Top 14, the English Premiership and Pro 12. Representation by English and French clubs on the three-person executive committee represents an increase in voting power for these two leagues as compared to the previous European Rugby Cup.[5]

The three voting members of the executive are:[6]

English Premiership: Bruce Craig
Pro12: Paul McNaughton
Top 14: René Fontès

Jacques Pineau became the interim Director General of EPCR when the tournament began, and was be responsible for the day-to-day operations of EPCR.[3][7][8] On 29 April 2015, it was announced that Swiss national Vincent Gaillard had been appointed the Director General, and would work with Pineau until 1 July 2015, when he would officially take on the role.[4]

Thats how the tournament is organised. The new comp lost a lost of expertise with the move to Switzerland as nearly all of the people who ran that competition left (especially Derek McGrath who is now CEO of one of the racecourse developments here).

There is now a Swiss bloke running the show.

Biographical details - Vincent Gaillard, Director General
The 45-year-old Swiss national joins EPCR from the Lausanne-based SportAccord (the umbrella organisation for all international, Olympic and non-Olympic sports federations) where he held the position of Chief Executive Officer. He previously held senior posts at Coca-Cola - where he managed the multi-national company's sponsorship of the 2008 and 2012 Olympic Games, and of Rugby World Cup and the FIFA World Cup - and at NBA (National Basketball Association) Europe where he was a Project Director.

Vincent is a graduate of INSEEC (Institut National des Sciences Economiques et Commerciales) in Bordeaux, and also has postgraduate qualifications from Audencia (Ecole Supérieure de Commerce de Nantes-Atlantique) and the University of Surrey.

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Media interest next time will be based on whether Sky or BT are bothered to compete. They will want big sponsors like Heineken who are prepared to invest money to promote it on tv. Heineken really used do a lot of that for the old ERC.

Interesting enough, Ronan O'Gara tweeted that 3m people watched the QF between Racing v Toulon on tv (Free to Air) in France.

Considering there's no interest, there seems to be a lot of interest.

No doubt those claiming to be shopping at IKEA with the wife will probably end up watching it. Then feel a little dirty.

Hopefully it'll be better than that Leinster v Ulster final. A horribly one-sided game between two sides playing each other for the ninth time that season.

Cyril wrote:Considering there's no interest, there seems to be a lot of interest.

No doubt those claiming to be shopping at IKEA with the wife will probably end up watching it. Then feel a little dirty.

Hopefully it'll be better than that Leinster v Ulster final. A horribly one-sided game between two sides playing each other for the ninth time that season.

Two teams playing each other for third time and even as an Ulster fan I was able to enjoy and appreciate Leinster performance

marty2086 wrote:

Cyril wrote:Considering there's no interest, there seems to be a lot of interest.

No doubt those claiming to be shopping at IKEA with the wife will probably end up watching it. Then feel a little dirty.

Hopefully it'll be better than that Leinster v Ulster final. A horribly one-sided game between two sides playing each other for the ninth time that season.

Two teams playing each other for third time and even as an Ulster fan I was able to enjoy and appreciate Leinster performance

I'm glad you were able to enjoy it. It wasn't a competitive final though, which is what neutrals would prefer.

On the date of the final - the French wanted it plenty of time before their Top 14 playoffs, finals. Mourad Boudjellal has said in March that the tournament should be scrapped in favour of a league. I wonder is that why they look disinterested this year.