European rugby, the interest just isn't there

by LordDowlais Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:36 pm

First topic message reminder :

I know I will get a bashing off some quarters on here, but sorry it has to be said, looking at the crowds for the two semi-finals on the weekend, it would seem the interest is not there. The aggregate figure for the two games was a paltry 38,968 people, there was more people than that for the Cardiff Blues V Leicester semi final a few years ago 44,212 turned up that day.

This proves that the greedy club owners have ruined a once prestigious competition, admired by thousands and getting better year on year. Where are all these new massive sponsorship deals ? Where is all this money we are supposed to be swimming in ?

All I saw on the weekend was empty seats, the future of the European club competition for me looks bleak, dwindling crowds, the same teams ALL the time in the knockout stages, lack of interest, the French already consider their own league a priority, for me something drastic needs to be done as it would seem the writing is on the wall for one of our favourite club competitions, it's sad, as it's been well and truly ruined by the greedy club owners.

Take a read of some of these, you might find them interesting:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/04/25/empty-seats-as-saracens-and-racing-92-won-through-must-be-a-wake/
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/much-better-europe-champions-cup-11238143

by Sin é Wed May 18, 2016 1:18 pm

Pot Hale wrote:Leaving aside the sniping and bitching though, the point is that private investment is likely to be required in the business of rugby in the future - in Ireland certainly.

And I'm not talking about a sponsorship deal with an individual player. Image rights etc are part and parcel of many sports but are largely aimed at improving bank balances of players, not the clubs they play for. If it got linked to wider merchandising for the club then it could be of benefit.

Investment in the form of shareholding in the provincial branches is the likely next major step. Which would likely require their status as IRFU branches to change to enable this. And possible separation of activities that might not be deemed central to the business of a rugby club eg schools, etc. Although control of player development pathways might be useful.

If private investment allowed the Union to put more resources and time into the club structure, then this might be a devil's pact worth making. There's an interesting article on the role that clubs have played in discovering/nurturing talent of recent players who might otherwise have been lost from the game when not making the initial cut at academy level. The argument goes that Irish players often develop later than international counterparts and having a strong, well-resourced club tier in the AIL is essential to keep developing these players. The B&I Cup in current set-up is seen as a complete waste of time and the sooner it's dispensed with the better. This would link in with Martin Anayi's reported comments from his discussions with Pro12 Chiefs that an alternative academy competition to replace the Anglo-Welsh Cup with an Ireland & GB comp during international Windows may be attractive to all.

Munster are seeking private investment through a multiple patron scheme described here.

"Just in pure revenue terms we have generated and additional €2m for Munster and specifically that comes through our Patrons Programme. Our patrons are people who are prepare to commit sums of up to €30,000 over three years to fund initiatives and activities and therefore take them off the books of Munster. This has been the most significant impact of the Commercial Board to date.

Our Patrons Programme has sponsored the Munster Rugby Academy through the combination of Greencore as the corporate partner and a further twenty individual patrons. Also, the Community Programme is now on the way to being fully sponsored with a core sponsor in Marks & Spencer (corporate partner) along with individual patrons and that will be completed in the next few months.

"We also have several other programmes that will be sponsored by patrons including the Talent Identification Programme, and the High Performance Programmes for forwards and backs.

"Other achievements include the sponsoring of what is now known as Irish Independent Park in Cork - the former Musgrave Park, assistance in the funding of the Single Training Centre at the University of Limerick campus and the starting of the Diaspora Programme which in my view is of upmost importance for the future sustainability of funding for Munster.

"Our Diaspora Programme sees us tie in with Munster fans all around the world, starting with our closest neighbour, the UK. We had the first London Diaspora Dinner last September and will have another this September and that allows us to build up a network of people who, while they don't live in Munster or indeed Ireland, are still very committed to the success of Munster and its ideals and are prepared to support that in very tangible ways, particularly financially."

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/20311.php#.VzxdFdeIUpl
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/20316.php#.VzxcydeIUpk

by marty2086 Wed May 18, 2016 1:21 pm

Sin é wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
profitius wrote:
.

“The bottom line is, the IRFU cannot consistently be the bank of the last resort because we simply don’t have the resources to do that.”

And yet last year they gave the FAI a €30m interest free loan.

I've missed that. Where's that noted?

IRFU Annual Report.

New Stadium Ltd is the Aviva Stadium which is co-owned by IRFU & FAI.

https://i.servimg.com/u/f86/16/53/77/41/screen10.png

Phil knows those reports inside and out

by Pot Hale Wed May 18, 2016 1:22 pm

Sin é wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
I would think it will go a long way to clearing their debt. The big problem for them has been the falling attendances. So I'm sure that will be their focus. Munster will be fine.

If you think it will go a long way to clearing their debt please could you a) quantify that debt and b) tell me what you think this game will generate.

Thanks.
2017 has an eye-watering payment chunk of €4.2m - how that is going to be paid remains to be seen. Part of Munster's plan for reducing the debt includes marquee games such as the Maori test, games in US, brand leverage through merchandising, stadium naming rights, and events such as the sale of season/debenture tickets in 2017.

10 year ticket sales will be up then. As far as I can recall, the last sale brought in €9m.

Mind you, I don't get all this panic about Munster's 9.6m debt. They have managed to raise 35m already. Only an Irish Province would be expected to pay back its parent (IRFU). Every other sporting organisation would expect a grant.

They have managed to raise €35m already? For what? From what? Is this linked to the additional €34m loan Munster received from IRFU as reported in the Union's 2014 annual accounts?

You were close enough on the 10-year ticket sales. Initial offer of 1500 tickets at €5,500 each was sold out and they added another 250 tickets in the offer round. Total sales came to €9.625m. That means new tickets will operate from 2018. Wonder what they hope for in sales this time and what price will they set them at? It covered 4 league games and 3 European pool games the last time round.

Leinster and RDS already have their planning permission sorted and work is due to get underway this year to expand RDS Arena to 25,000 at a cost of €20m.

Now it's Connacht's turn....

Munster raised all the money bar 15m (which they borrowed from the IRFU) through sale of 10 year tickets, own resources, Limerick City grant, Shannon Development grant, etc. etc. JP McManus also seems to have made a big contribution. He was certainly very prominent at the opening ceremony (along with Padraig Harrington). Don't forget that in 2006 Munster was the biggest club brand in the world, selling 80,000 jerseys in 2006. Most recent reports say they are still the top selling rugby jersey in UK & Ireland (didn't give figures for elsewhere).

The 34m loan was to New Stadium Ltd which is the Aviva which effectively was bailing out the FAI for their share of the Aviva. Note the much better terms and conditions they got. It seems that the IRFU have now bought out some of the FAI interest in the stadium which is really a head scratcher because the Aviva's last published accounts had losses of close to 3m. Only reason I can think that they might do that is because they don't like sharing the Aviva with FAI.

If the IRFU can come up with that kind of money to buy out a loss making stadium, they sure as hell can donate 10m to the redevelopment of Thomond Park.

As for next sale of 10 year seats - I'd imagine that is why Munster were allowed the Maori game - to build up interest in Munster again. The tickets are really cheap and they are going to get the kids in there (5 adults, 20 kids - Euro 100). Good marketing.

Ah - thanks Sin. I got the 34m from a Limerick media report. I see the error they made. I should have gone back to the source as I knew about New Stadium limited.

Interesting about the loan re FAI. The deal with FAI, if I recall correctly, is that Lansdowne would revert to total ownership by IRFU after 20 years (not sure about period). If IRFU is now loaning them money to repay the original loan, then I suspect that ownership will transfer sooner and thereby give IRFU additional income stream through rental of facility to various parties, including FAI.

by marty2086 Wed May 18, 2016 1:27 pm

Sin é wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Leaving aside the sniping and bitching though, the point is that private investment is likely to be required in the business of rugby in the future - in Ireland certainly.

And I'm not talking about a sponsorship deal with an individual player. Image rights etc are part and parcel of many sports but are largely aimed at improving bank balances of players, not the clubs they play for. If it got linked to wider merchandising for the club then it could be of benefit.

Investment in the form of shareholding in the provincial branches is the likely next major step. Which would likely require their status as IRFU branches to change to enable this. And possible separation of activities that might not be deemed central to the business of a rugby club eg schools, etc. Although control of player development pathways might be useful.

If private investment allowed the Union to put more resources and time into the club structure, then this might be a devil's pact worth making. There's an interesting article on the role that clubs have played in discovering/nurturing talent of recent players who might otherwise have been lost from the game when not making the initial cut at academy level. The argument goes that Irish players often develop later than international counterparts and having a strong, well-resourced club tier in the AIL is essential to keep developing these players. The B&I Cup in current set-up is seen as a complete waste of time and the sooner it's dispensed with the better. This would link in with Martin Anayi's reported comments from his discussions with Pro12 Chiefs that an alternative academy competition to replace the Anglo-Welsh Cup with an Ireland & GB comp during international Windows may be attractive to all.

Munster are seeking private investment through a multiple patron scheme described here.

"Just in pure revenue terms we have generated and additional €2m for Munster and specifically that comes through our Patrons Programme. Our patrons are people who are prepare to commit sums of up to €30,000 over three years to fund initiatives and activities and therefore take them off the books of Munster. This has been the most significant impact of the Commercial Board to date.

Our Patrons Programme has sponsored the Munster Rugby Academy through the combination of Greencore as the corporate partner and a further twenty individual patrons. Also, the Community Programme is now on the way to being fully sponsored with a core sponsor in Marks & Spencer (corporate partner) along with individual patrons and that will be completed in the next few months.

"We also have several other programmes that will be sponsored by patrons including the Talent Identification Programme, and the High Performance Programmes for forwards and backs.

"Other achievements include the sponsoring of what is now known as Irish Independent Park in Cork - the former Musgrave Park, assistance in the funding of the Single Training Centre at the University of Limerick campus and the starting of the Diaspora Programme which in my view is of upmost importance for the future sustainability of funding for Munster.

"Our Diaspora Programme sees us tie in with Munster fans all around the world, starting with our closest neighbour, the UK. We had the first London Diaspora Dinner last September and will have another this September and that allows us to build up a network of people who, while they don't live in Munster or indeed Ireland, are still very committed to the success of Munster and its ideals and are prepared to support that in very tangible ways, particularly financially."

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/20311.php#.VzxdFdeIUpl
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/20316.php#.VzxcydeIUpk

Ulster have something similar with Corporate Partnership with the academy which was previously the Phoenix Academy and is now the Hughes Insurance Academy.

by SecretFly Wed May 18, 2016 1:41 pm

Pot Hale wrote:Leaving aside the sniping and bitching though, the point is that private investment is likely to be required in the business of rugby in the future - in Ireland certainly.

And I'm not talking about a sponsorship deal with an individual player. Image rights etc are part and parcel of many sports but are largely aimed at improving bank balances of players, not the clubs they play for. If it got linked to wider merchandising for the club then it could be of benefit.

Investment in the form of shareholding in the provincial branches is the likely next major step. Which would likely require their status as IRFU branches to change to enable this. And possible separation of activities that might not be deemed central to the business of a rugby club eg schools, etc. Although control of player development pathways might be useful.

If private investment allowed the Union to put more resources and time into the club structure, then this might be a devil's pact worth making. There's an interesting article on the role that clubs have played in discovering/nurturing talent of recent players who might otherwise have been lost from the game when not making the initial cut at academy level. The argument goes that Irish players often develop later than international counterparts and having a strong, well-resourced club tier in the AIL is essential to keep developing these players. The B&I Cup in current set-up is seen as a complete waste of time and the sooner it's dispensed with the better. This would link in with Martin Anayi's reported comments from his discussions with Pro12 Chiefs that an alternative academy competition to replace the Anglo-Welsh Cup with an Ireland & GB comp during international Windows may be attractive to all.

Control of the motivations and actions of Private Investors is practically impossible - as the quasi-Union PRL in England have found out. This supposed overlord of the 12 Private clubs, that supposedly keeps them all in check and ensures they're all singing from the same hymn sheet, had to just grin and bear it - and indeed allow themselves to be silenced publically - as one or two of their teams decided for themselves that they would not be constrained by the agreements they all supposedly reached together.

Now in a Nation the size of England, PRL and their clubs can withstand the financial implications of such anarchical disorganisation (for now!). But in a Nation the size of Ireland? An open range war would fester between the respective teams and we might have implosions, walk-outs and court cases that teams could not recover from easily.

Thread carefully. Ready money always looks inviting - but it usually has someone else's name on it looking for it to be paid back eventually. How much genuine investing and how much siphoning? That is the question that would need to be plotted out. Everyone always wants to take out more than they put in which could impact on things like ticket prices pretty damn quick.
Plus - I think another 'ideal' scenario is that all four Provinces would attract equal external investment. I don't think any of us are fools, we know that the east Coast is where the numbers are and we know that Leinster and Ulster would be offered/extract the Lion's share - in the interests of investment viability of course.

So thread carefully. Don't run adoringly into its arms.

by Sin é Wed May 18, 2016 1:52 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
I would think it will go a long way to clearing their debt. The big problem for them has been the falling attendances. So I'm sure that will be their focus. Munster will be fine.

If you think it will go a long way to clearing their debt please could you a) quantify that debt and b) tell me what you think this game will generate.

Thanks.
2017 has an eye-watering payment chunk of €4.2m - how that is going to be paid remains to be seen. Part of Munster's plan for reducing the debt includes marquee games such as the Maori test, games in US, brand leverage through merchandising, stadium naming rights, and events such as the sale of season/debenture tickets in 2017.

10 year ticket sales will be up then. As far as I can recall, the last sale brought in €9m.

Mind you, I don't get all this panic about Munster's 9.6m debt. They have managed to raise 35m already. Only an Irish Province would be expected to pay back its parent (IRFU). Every other sporting organisation would expect a grant.

They have managed to raise €35m already? For what? From what? Is this linked to the additional €34m loan Munster received from IRFU as reported in the Union's 2014 annual accounts?

You were close enough on the 10-year ticket sales. Initial offer of 1500 tickets at €5,500 each was sold out and they added another 250 tickets in the offer round. Total sales came to €9.625m. That means new tickets will operate from 2018. Wonder what they hope for in sales this time and what price will they set them at? It covered 4 league games and 3 European pool games the last time round.

Leinster and RDS already have their planning permission sorted and work is due to get underway this year to expand RDS Arena to 25,000 at a cost of €20m.

Now it's Connacht's turn....

Munster raised all the money bar 15m (which they borrowed from the IRFU) through sale of 10 year tickets, own resources, Limerick City grant, Shannon Development grant, etc. etc. JP McManus also seems to have made a big contribution. He was certainly very prominent at the opening ceremony (along with Padraig Harrington). Don't forget that in 2006 Munster was the biggest club brand in the world, selling 80,000 jerseys in 2006. Most recent reports say they are still the top selling rugby jersey in UK & Ireland (didn't give figures for elsewhere).

The 34m loan was to New Stadium Ltd which is the Aviva which effectively was bailing out the FAI for their share of the Aviva. Note the much better terms and conditions they got. It seems that the IRFU have now bought out some of the FAI interest in the stadium which is really a head scratcher because the Aviva's last published accounts had losses of close to 3m. Only reason I can think that they might do that is because they don't like sharing the Aviva with FAI.

If the IRFU can come up with that kind of money to buy out a loss making stadium, they sure as hell can donate 10m to the redevelopment of Thomond Park.

As for next sale of 10 year seats - I'd imagine that is why Munster were allowed the Maori game - to build up interest in Munster again. The tickets are really cheap and they are going to get the kids in there (5 adults, 20 kids - Euro 100). Good marketing.
Ah - thanks Sin. I got the 34m from a Limerick media report. I see the error they made. I should have gone back to the source as I knew about New Stadium limited.

Interesting about the loan re FAI. The deal with FAI, if I recall correctly, is that Lansdowne would revert to total ownership by IRFU after 20 years (not sure about period). If IRFU is now loaning them money to repay the original loan, then I suspect that ownership will transfer sooner and thereby give IRFU additional income stream through rental of facility to various parties, including FAI.

The original deal was that the IRFU & FAI own over the ground (structure), with the IRFU still retaining ownership of the land. The reason they got such a big grant was because it was a partnership between two sporting organisations (GAA only got 110m towards Croke Park). I think the stadia reverts back to IRFU after 48 years - certainly its a lot more than 20 years). In the meantime, the IRFU get a ground rent from New Stadium Ltd of 1m per annum.

With the downturn in the economy, the FAI got badly caught out with the sale of their 10 year tickets. The IRFU (Tom Grace!) really keep a firm grip on the financials. Its pretty amazing that they have no debt on a 7 year old stadium. (Madness really).

The Aviva has been losing money steadily though (about 2-3m per annum), so I'm not sure its such a great asset to have.

by SecretFly Wed May 18, 2016 1:55 pm

Sin é wrote:

The Aviva has been losing money steadily though (about 2-3m per annum), so I'm not sure its such a great asset to have.

Not used enough. Garth Brooks offered to do 55 nights and they turned him down because they wanted him to play the last Sunday too.

by **Rugby Fan** Wed May 18, 2016 2:37 pm

This is an odd thread. There's some good discussion, and information which is new to me (thanks, Irish guys). And then there's there are random rants, and an ongoing flamewar.

I imagine this is what it might be like to hear a discussion held by people afflicted by Tourette's syndrome.

by Allty Wed May 18, 2016 2:40 pm

I agree Rugby fan

The Irish posts have been informative and importantly polite.

by Pot Hale Wed May 18, 2016 3:25 pm

Allty wrote:

I agree Rugby fan

The Irish posts have been informative and importantly polite.

Well except for that Fly guy, he's been Frak Poopie five knuckle shuffle talking a load of I am a twonk of the highest order Frak Frak cheesecake old tosh.

by fa0019 Wed May 18, 2016 3:33 pm

Sin é wrote:

The Aviva has been losing money steadily though (about 2-3m per annum), so I'm not sure its such a great asset to have.

Why did they build it so small? When they were filling 80,000 into Croke Park during the build phase there is no doubt extra capacity would have been filled. Say 20,000 * 50 euros. That's an extra 1 million euros per match so say 6-7 million euros per annum for test matches alone.

Was it a lack of space issue?

by SecretFly Wed May 18, 2016 3:39 pm

fa0019 wrote:
Sin é wrote:

The Aviva has been losing money steadily though (about 2-3m per annum), so I'm not sure its such a great asset to have.

Why did they build it so small? When they were filling 80,000 into Croke Park during the build phase there is no doubt extra capacity would have been filled. Say 20,000 * 50 euros. That's an extra 1 million euros per match so say 6-7 million euros per annum for test matches alone.

Was it a lack of space issue?

It was for the daffodils.... the daffodils. The gardeners didn't want their daylight hours of growing disturbed.... that's why the greenhouse is the shape it is. I love it. There is something cute about it... but yes, about 50% too small! Wink

by SecretFly Wed May 18, 2016 3:41 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Allty wrote:

I agree Rugby fan

The Irish posts have been informative and importantly polite.
Well except for that Fly guy, he's been Frak Poopie five knuckle shuffle talking a load of I am a twonk of the highest order Frak Frak cheesecake old tosh.

Oh don't Pot..... I'm going ever so bashful. kiss

I find it very hard to accept compliments.

by fa0019 Wed May 18, 2016 3:41 pm

SecretFly wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
Sin é wrote:

The Aviva has been losing money steadily though (about 2-3m per annum), so I'm not sure its such a great asset to have.

Why did they build it so small? When they were filling 80,000 into Croke Park during the build phase there is no doubt extra capacity would have been filled. Say 20,000 * 50 euros. That's an extra 1 million euros per match so say 6-7 million euros per annum for test matches alone.

Was it a lack of space issue?

It was for the daffodils.... the daffodils. The gardeners didn't want their daylight hours of growing disturbed.... that's why the greenhouse is the shape it is. I love it. There is something cute about it... but yes, about 50% too small!

no wonder the welsh love it so.

by Sin é Wed May 18, 2016 3:45 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Thread carefully. Ready money alwuine investing and how much siphoning? That is the question that would need to be plotted out. Everyone always wants to take out more than they put in which could impact on things like ticket prices pretty damn quick.
Plus - I think another 'ideal' scenario is that all four Provinces would attract equal external investment. I don't think any of us are fools, we know that the east Coast is where the numbers are and we know that Leinster and Ulster would be offered/extract the Lion's share - in the interests of investment viability of course.

So thread carefully. Don't run adoringly into its arms.

Not sure that is relevant - Munster has similar type of sponsors as Leinster & Ulster. Kingspan is probably the only local sponsor (although a global product). Bank of Ireland are equally invested in the Big Three (and I suspect they wanted it badly at the time (collapse of banking system) so as to be associated with winning teams all over Europe).

Sexton & O'Brien sponsorship is more down to them being high profile internationals than Leinster players. (Denis O'Brien is from Cork!). I bet O'Brien wasn't worried about Ian Madigan going to France. Its rumoured that JP McManus offered to do something similar to keep POC in Munster (match Toulon's salary).

Greencore sponsor the Munster Academy - they are a global company (worth 1.4 billion) HQed in Dublin. Their CEO is Patrick Coveney (brother of Simon) who are from Cork and big Munster fans.

Marks & Spencer - sponsor Munster's Community Programme:

In forming the partnership, Marks & Spencer will support the Community team of eight full-time Community Rugby Officers and 10 part-time Club Community Rugby Officers. These rugby officers provide services to clubs, schools and communities at every level in the province and work with over 15,000 children who take part in rugby activities each season.

Marks & Spencer will also sponsor the half-time mini rugby matches, a focal point of Munster's home games, as well as supporting over 100 blitzes which are held for clubs and schools each season.

Point is, big brands will sponsor any team that is doing well in Ireland.

I hope some of our non-Provincial fans are noticing that the Provinces have a lot more on their plate than just the Professional team!

Good news for Irish rugby fans - Dee Forbes, the incoming Director General of RTE is a big Munster & Ireland fan. Bearing in mind RTE will have no rugby left now that the 6Ns is gone might suggest that RTE will get the finger out for the Pro12. I'm sure Ryle will want to get on the good side of his new boss!

by Sin é Wed May 18, 2016 3:52 pm

fa0019 wrote:
Sin é wrote:

The Aviva has been losing money steadily though (about 2-3m per annum), so I'm not sure its such a great asset to have.

Why did they build it so small? When they were filling 80,000 into Croke Park during the build phase there is no doubt extra capacity would have been filled. Say 20,000 * 50 euros. That's an extra 1 million euros per match so say 6-7 million euros per annum for test matches alone.

Was it a lack of space issue?

Yes. The D4 crowd didn't want to move from D4 Smile

I don't think the city needed two 80K stadia either. The fly in the ointment is the Aviva sponsorship of the stadium which doesn't allow any games moved out of there (for both Football & Rugby).

The IRFU have loads of money. They have 70m in reserve and own their own stadium and they are whinging about Munster owing them 9m! I can't remember if they have ever had a deficit. Tom Grace (IRFU Treasurer) rules Irish Rugby's finances with an iron grip. Even when the IRFU showed a profit of 11m, he turned it into an actual loss. Very Happy

by marty2086 Wed May 18, 2016 4:05 pm

Sin é wrote:Good news for Irish rugby fans - Dee Forbes, the incoming Director General of RTE is a big Munster & Ireland fan. Bearing in mind RTE will have no rugby left now that the 6Ns is gone might suggest that RTE will get the finger out for the Pro12. I'm sure Ryle will want to get on the good side of his new boss!

Or if he doesn't like him its one way to get him fired, sure no one wants to watch Munster these days Whistle

by SecretFly Wed May 18, 2016 4:13 pm

Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Thread carefully. Ready money alwuine investing and how much siphoning? That is the question that would need to be plotted out. Everyone always wants to take out more than they put in which could impact on things like ticket prices pretty damn quick.
Plus - I think another 'ideal' scenario is that all four Provinces would attract equal external investment. I don't think any of us are fools, we know that the east Coast is where the numbers are and we know that Leinster and Ulster would be offered/extract the Lion's share - in the interests of investment viability of course.

So thread carefully. Don't run adoringly into its arms.

Not sure that is relevant - Munster has similar type of sponsors as Leinster & Ulster. Kingspan is probably the only local sponsor (although a global product). Bank of Ireland are equally invested in the Big Three (and I suspect they wanted it badly at the time (collapse of banking system) so as to be associated with winning teams all over Europe).

Well I'm not certain it's relevant either Sin. But my nose would lead me to thinking it would be. Remember, we're not talking 'Sponsors' - the game already has it's Sponsors, and they'll shift and change and come and go over time as usual. Pot's posts were about the need for Irish Provinces to acquire Investors - guys that would be looking for shareholding in turn for investment; guys with an eye to perhaps acquiring 'ownership' rights in the future. Privatisation.

So again, I say, for those greedy kind of lads with an eye for an opportunity - which Provinces do you think they'd be more inclined to invest? Where the density of numbers would potentially offer them the best returns?

by LordDowlais Wed May 18, 2016 4:14 pm

Allty wrote:This PhillBB ruins threads on every site he posts on. What a sad boring person he is.

Dont feed the troll guys

Alty, I am a member on various forums, he is not very popular on any.

by LordDowlais Wed May 18, 2016 4:17 pm

Yes I read somewhere that the big glass part of the Aviva stadium in Dublin behind the goals is because the residents did not want to lose their sunlight, or something along those lines.

by SecretFly Wed May 18, 2016 4:24 pm

Sin é wrote:

Good news for Irish rugby fans - Dee Forbes, the incoming Director General of RTE is a big Munster & Ireland fan. Bearing in mind RTE will have no rugby left now that the 6Ns is gone might suggest that RTE will get the finger out for the Pro12. I'm sure Ryle will want to get on the good side of his new boss!

Can RTE afford a finger - in or out? I'm not so sure their best shot at Pro12 would gain them anything. Besides don't the already have a slice of Pro12 with TG4, which they have a slice of in the first place?

by Pot Hale Wed May 18, 2016 4:25 pm

Sin é wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
Sin é wrote:

The Aviva has been losing money steadily though (about 2-3m per annum), so I'm not sure its such a great asset to have.

Why did they build it so small? When they were filling 80,000 into Croke Park during the build phase there is no doubt extra capacity would have been filled. Say 20,000 * 50 euros. That's an extra 1 million euros per match so say 6-7 million euros per annum for test matches alone.

Was it a lack of space issue?

Yes. The D4 crowd didn't want to move from D4

I don't think the city needed two 80K stadia either. The fly in the ointment is the Aviva sponsorship of the stadium which doesn't allow any games moved out of there (for both Football & Rugby).

The IRFU have loads of money. They have 70m in reserve and own their own stadium and they are whinging about Munster owing them 9m! I can't remember if they have ever had a deficit. Tom Grace (IRFU Treasurer) rules Irish Rugby's finances with an iron grip. Even when the IRFU showed a profit of 11m, he turned it into an actual loss.

Havelock Square residents overshadowed. Hence the glass wall at one end. 53k is the right size. The naming rights deal is too restrictive though - they should be able to move some tour games around the country the Aviva branding going on tour if necessary to keep them happy.

by SecretFly Wed May 18, 2016 4:30 pm

Aviva corporate guests standing on the side of a mucky field???? Cucumber sandwiches spoiled by the wafting smell of steaming silage?

"Not I?!!!" Shouts AVIVA CEO!

by Pot Hale Wed May 18, 2016 4:31 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Thread carefully. Ready money alwuine investing and how much siphoning? That is the question that would need to be plotted out. Everyone always wants to take out more than they put in which could impact on things like ticket prices pretty damn quick.
Plus - I think another 'ideal' scenario is that all four Provinces would attract equal external investment. I don't think any of us are fools, we know that the east Coast is where the numbers are and we know that Leinster and Ulster would be offered/extract the Lion's share - in the interests of investment viability of course.

So thread carefully. Don't run adoringly into its arms.

Not sure that is relevant - Munster has similar type of sponsors as Leinster & Ulster. Kingspan is probably the only local sponsor (although a global product). Bank of Ireland are equally invested in the Big Three (and I suspect they wanted it badly at the time (collapse of banking system) so as to be associated with winning teams all over Europe).

Well I'm not certain it's relevant either Sin. But my nose would lead me to thinking it would be. Remember, we're not talking 'Sponsors' - the game already has it's Sponsors, and they'll shift and change and come and go over time as usual. Pot's posts were about the need for Irish Provinces to acquire Investors - guys that would be looking for shareholding in turn for investment; guys with an eye to perhaps acquiring 'ownership' rights in the future. Privatisation.

So again, I say, for those greedy kind of lads with an eye for an opportunity - which Provinces do you think they'd be more inclined to invest? Where the density of numbers would potentially offer them the best returns?

Oddly enough, Fly old bean, did Connacht not manage to attract in private money when they were in the doldrums and practically bankrupt?

by Pot Hale Wed May 18, 2016 4:35 pm

SecretFly wrote:Aviva corporate guests standing on the side of a mucky field???? Cucumber sandwiches spoiled by the wafting smell of steaming silage?

"Not I?!!!" Shouts AVIVA CEO!

Well he'd be on a video link from his house in Bahamas anyway. The real CEO that is.

I can see bright yellow Aviva wellies now - all neatly lined up outside McHale Park as the corporates arrive. They'd make it part of a 'fun adventure' corporate day out, complete with paintball and getting to wear their Timberland boots in a wooded area.

by SecretFly Wed May 18, 2016 4:42 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Thread carefully. Ready money alwuine investing and how much siphoning? That is the question that would need to be plotted out. Everyone always wants to take out more than they put in which could impact on things like ticket prices pretty damn quick.
Plus - I think another 'ideal' scenario is that all four Provinces would attract equal external investment. I don't think any of us are fools, we know that the east Coast is where the numbers are and we know that Leinster and Ulster would be offered/extract the Lion's share - in the interests of investment viability of course.

So thread carefully. Don't run adoringly into its arms.

Not sure that is relevant - Munster has similar type of sponsors as Leinster & Ulster. Kingspan is probably the only local sponsor (although a global product). Bank of Ireland are equally invested in the Big Three (and I suspect they wanted it badly at the time (collapse of banking system) so as to be associated with winning teams all over Europe).

Well I'm not certain it's relevant either Sin. But my nose would lead me to thinking it would be. Remember, we're not talking 'Sponsors' - the game already has it's Sponsors, and they'll shift and change and come and go over time as usual. Pot's posts were about the need for Irish Provinces to acquire Investors - guys that would be looking for shareholding in turn for investment; guys with an eye to perhaps acquiring 'ownership' rights in the future. Privatisation.

So again, I say, for those greedy kind of lads with an eye for an opportunity - which Provinces do you think they'd be more inclined to invest? Where the density of numbers would potentially offer them the best returns?
Oddly enough, Fly old bean, did Connacht not manage to attract in private money when they were in the doldrums and practically bankrupt?

I didn't quite manage to save that special edition of the Financial Times that gave the full low down on that period, Pot. So, I'll obviously trust you, as you know I always do, when facts and figures need counting.
But yay, for verily, it doth still be a small pittance in the field of pittances and would need much improvement to go and kill yonder European Cup Dragon in Boudjellaland. What think you, sire?

by Sin é Wed May 18, 2016 4:46 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Yes I read somewhere that the big glass part of the Aviva stadium in Dublin behind the goals is because the residents did not want to lose their sunlight, or something along those lines.

That and there is a railway line there.

by marty2086 Wed May 18, 2016 4:47 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Thread carefully. Ready money alwuine investing and how much siphoning? That is the question that would need to be plotted out. Everyone always wants to take out more than they put in which could impact on things like ticket prices pretty damn quick.
Plus - I think another 'ideal' scenario is that all four Provinces would attract equal external investment. I don't think any of us are fools, we know that the east Coast is where the numbers are and we know that Leinster and Ulster would be offered/extract the Lion's share - in the interests of investment viability of course.

So thread carefully. Don't run adoringly into its arms.

Not sure that is relevant - Munster has similar type of sponsors as Leinster & Ulster. Kingspan is probably the only local sponsor (although a global product). Bank of Ireland are equally invested in the Big Three (and I suspect they wanted it badly at the time (collapse of banking system) so as to be associated with winning teams all over Europe).

Well I'm not certain it's relevant either Sin. But my nose would lead me to thinking it would be. Remember, we're not talking 'Sponsors' - the game already has it's Sponsors, and they'll shift and change and come and go over time as usual. Pot's posts were about the need for Irish Provinces to acquire Investors - guys that would be looking for shareholding in turn for investment; guys with an eye to perhaps acquiring 'ownership' rights in the future. Privatisation.

So again, I say, for those greedy kind of lads with an eye for an opportunity - which Provinces do you think they'd be more inclined to invest? Where the density of numbers would potentially offer them the best returns?

Privatisation isn't the only way to do it, the Kiwis have a mixed bag. I think one is completely privately owned while the rest are licensed, so the NZRU still own them but then lease out the running off them to outsiders. Some are licensed to companies that are part owned by regional unions and some are licensed to private companies. Probably the best model to use if the IRFU are going to go down that road at some point.

by Pot Hale Wed May 18, 2016 4:47 pm

Leinster Rugby CEO Mick Dawson in 2014 said the New Zealand model is one they've discussed with the IRFU. They have an "open mind" about this format "if they found a suitable business partner . . . the way rugby is moving, we can't get left behind."

London Irish rugby club was bought by a consortium of London-based Irish businessmen, headed by Crossan. Derek Richardson has transformed Wasps. What contribution could they have made or others like them make to Irish rugby if an avenue was open to them?

by Sin é Wed May 18, 2016 4:57 pm

I can't see the IRFU going down that route. The GAA has set the tone with regard to how Irish people look at sport. Take JP McManus for example, he used to own Manchester United (made a killing on it I think with Magnier), yet he pumps millions into sport in Ireland without looking for any return. Way back, he was going to invest/donate 50m to the FAI to build a stadium. Same with Denis O'Brien, he pays Martin O'Neill & Roy Keane's wages, but he doesn't even get as much as a free ticket to games (not that he needs it).

If you look at the individuals on Munster's commercial board (all very wealthy, successful people who would be the likely types to buy a franchise), they are going down the route of multiple smallish patronage (i.e., 30K over 3 years = 90K).

That way, the people continue to own the team.

by marty2086 Wed May 18, 2016 4:58 pm

In all seriousness, what could a private investor offer that the IRFU can't?

Are they going to change the structures and business model so radically that they will generate a substantial increase in income?

Richardson moved Wasps to leave a crowded market and enter an largely untapped one and made the club more self sufficient.

Maybe the Irish market doesn't lend itself to privatisation.

by Pot Hale Wed May 18, 2016 5:02 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:

Good news for Irish rugby fans - Dee Forbes, the incoming Director General of RTE is a big Munster & Ireland fan. Bearing in mind RTE will have no rugby left now that the 6Ns is gone might suggest that RTE will get the finger out for the Pro12. I'm sure Ryle will want to get on the good side of his new boss!

Can RTE afford a finger - in or out? I'm not so sure their best shot at Pro12 would gain them anything. Besides don't the already have a slice of Pro12 with TG4, which they have a slice of in the first place?

Agree with that. I'd say the better bet would be TV3. They did the deal on the RWC and delivered, despite the excruciating ad breaks. Now that Liberty have bought out Doughty Hansen, they'll want to have good content for their quad-play platform to compete in that market. They certainly should be able to outbid TG4. And they have an all-island platform so they could bid for NI as well against BBC NI. Certainly a better terrestrial deal could be done. Tieing that into expat audiences elsewhere would deliver more.

by SecretFly Wed May 18, 2016 5:08 pm

Pot Hale wrote:Leinster Rugby CEO Mick Dawson in 2014 said the New Zealand model is one they've discussed with the IRFU. They have an "open mind" about this format "if they found a suitable business partner . . . the way rugby is moving, we can't get left behind."

London Irish rugby club was bought by a consortium of London-based Irish businessmen, headed by Crossan. Derek Richardson has transformed Wasps. What contribution could they have made or others like them make to Irish rugby if an avenue was open to them?

But why isn't it already happening in an already Professional Private sport - FAI's League of Ireland (the biggest sport there is - with oodles of supposed potential) Where are the major Irish investors in that? It's still pretty much a mucky field project all over Ireland - hardly any Internationals coming from it and not exactly attracting too many top ranked players either.

Argument - well Premium Rugby in Ireland is a different beast and has a higher market value due to the Big contests they've excelled in etc.

Yes, but potential investors are seeing where the money is sliding to... and where it's slipping away from. AP/BP has loadsa money to dish out. Density issues/ and League value would still inform many investors decisions.

Yeah, it's good to talk and put out feelers. But thread carefully...don't rush at the supposed saviour waiting in the wings. Keep control and don't let it slip. The rugby territory right now and possibly for the next 7 or 8 years is very fluid.

by Sin é Wed May 18, 2016 5:11 pm

TG4 is independent from RTE since 2007, with its own Director General. In fact, TG4 had to change from Euronews servies to France 24 because RTE had a stake in Euronews.

by Pot Hale Wed May 18, 2016 5:14 pm

marty2086 wrote:In all seriousness, what could a private investor offer that the IRFU can't?

Are they going to change the structures and business model so radically that they will generate a substantial increase in income?

Richardson moved Wasps to leave a crowded market and enter an largely untapped one and made the club more self sufficient.

Maybe the Irish market doesn't lend itself to privatisation.

The IRFU would be more risk averse than a private investor. It has to be given its central role in managing the sport at every level.

The provinces are set up as stand-alone businesses with restricted central funding for talent, academy development and asset development. They can't afford to get into the salary-chasing game. I think the question is more what would they want to hold onto rather than what would they let go?

by SecretFly Wed May 18, 2016 5:17 pm

marty2086 wrote:In all seriousness, what could a private investor offer that the IRFU can't?

Are they going to change the structures and business model so radically that they will generate a substantial increase in income?

Richardson moved Wasps to leave a crowded market and enter an largely untapped one and made the club more self sufficient.

Maybe the Irish market doesn't lend itself to privatisation.

Yeah, that's kinda my feeling. I'm not against the idea of sounding out possibilities and I think I trust IRFU to be savvy enough to carry those out behind the scenes. But I wouldn't like rushed knee-jerk reactions. We have something here that produced the goods. We've had a few lean years and the nature of the business has indeed shifted. But still, you don't kill off something that has produced without a lot of research into the real benefits of change.

Changing something doesn't always mean it's always going to be for the best or work out. Then - when you're finding out things aren't going as smoothly as predicted, how easy to get back to the foundation level? Practically impossible. The world has moved on - chaos theory has moved in - you can't go back - and you may have just killed your golden goose.

by Pot Hale Wed May 18, 2016 5:19 pm

Sin é wrote:TG4 is independent from RTE since 2007, with its own Director General. In fact, TG4 had to change from Euronews servies to France 24 because RTE had a stake in Euronews.

Independent from RTE doesn't stop it being a public service broadcaster and receiving €30m in state funding though, Sin é

by Sin é Wed May 18, 2016 5:19 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Leinster Rugby CEO Mick Dawson in 2014 said the New Zealand model is one they've discussed with the IRFU. They have an "open mind" about this format "if they found a suitable business partner . . . the way rugby is moving, we can't get left behind."

London Irish rugby club was bought by a consortium of London-based Irish businessmen, headed by Crossan. Derek Richardson has transformed Wasps. What contribution could they have made or others like them make to Irish rugby if an avenue was open to them?

But why isn't it already happening in an already Professional Private sport - FAI's League of Ireland (the biggest sport there is - with oodles of supposed potential) Where are the major Irish investors in that? It's still pretty much a mucky field project all over Ireland - hardly any Internationals coming from it and not exactly attracting too many top ranked players either.

Argument - well Premium Rugby in Ireland is a different beast and has a higher market value due to the Big contests they've excelled in etc.

Yes, but potential investors are seeing where the money is sliding to... and where it's slipping away from. AP/BP has loadsa money to dish out. Density issues/ and League value would still inform many investors decisions.

Yeah, it's good to talk and put out feelers. But thread carefully...don't rush at the supposed saviour waiting in the wings. Keep control and don't let it slip. The rugby territory right now and possibly for the next 7 or 8 years is very fluid.

As I've said, I think there is a different attitude to sport in Ireland than elsewhere. The big business heads don't want to mix sport and money here. Dermot Desmond is a very kean football fan, yet he has never invested in Irish soccer that we know of, but is the major shareholder of Celtic. Its like when they are at home in Ireland, they don't want to mix business with pleasure.

by Sin é Wed May 18, 2016 5:21 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Sin é wrote:TG4 is independent from RTE since 2007, with its own Director General. In fact, TG4 had to change from Euronews servies to France 24 because RTE had a stake in Euronews.

Independent from RTE doesn't stop it being a public service broadcaster and receiving €30m in state funding though, Sin é

I was correcting the incorrect point made that RTE had an interest in TG4 (so somehow were responsible for rugby coverage on TG4)!

They are separate and competing broadcasting corporations.

by SecretFly Wed May 18, 2016 5:22 pm

Sin é wrote:TG4 is independent from RTE since 2007, with its own Director General. In fact, TG4 had to change from Euronews servies to France 24 because RTE had a stake in Euronews.

Fully Independent as in not on any RTE documents? I think not Sin. They have autonomy I think but as far as I knew they're still a subsidiary?

by Sin é Wed May 18, 2016 5:39 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:TG4 is independent from RTE since 2007, with its own Director General. In fact, TG4 had to change from Euronews servies to France 24 because RTE had a stake in Euronews.

Fully Independent as in not on any RTE documents? I think not Sin. They have autonomy I think but as far as I knew they're still a subsidiary?

From their website:

TG4, the Irish language television channel is an independent statutory entity (Teilifís na Gaeilge). The channel has been on-air since late 1996.

----

Government Funding
The Government is providing current funding of €32.54m to TG4 for 2016. TG4 also derives income from selling commercial air-time and programme sponsorship. TG4 is acknowledged as one of the most efficient and cost effective television stations in Europe.

Public Service
TG4 is a public service broadcaster. The functions and duties of TG4 (Teilifís na Gaeilge) are set out in the Broadcasting Act 2009. The entity has a twelve member board, currently chaired by Siún Ní Raghallaigh. TG4 receives a programme supply of 365 hours of Irish language programming annually from RTÉ, at no cost to TG4, as specified in the Broadcasting Act 2009.

----

It looks to be fairly separate from that.

by **Notch** Wed May 18, 2016 5:47 pm

This thread is approaching the point where it needs to be locked because of length. I don't want to cut off the discussions anyone is having abruptly, so I'll wait for an hour. You can either wrap up in that time or start a new thread

by SecretFly Wed May 18, 2016 5:50 pm

Grand, sin. I must have been looking at an old official report.

by Sin é Wed May 18, 2016 6:00 pm

Notch wrote:This thread is approaching the point where it needs to be locked because of length. I don't want to cut off the discussions anyone is having abruptly, so I'll wait for an hour. You can either wrap up in that time or start a new thread

ok with me thumbsup

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