European rugby, the interest just isn't there

First topic message reminder :

I know I will get a bashing off some quarters on here, but sorry it has to be said, looking at the crowds for the two semi-finals on the weekend, it would seem the interest is not there. The aggregate figure for the two games was a paltry 38,968 people, there was more people than that for the Cardiff Blues V Leicester semi final a few years ago 44,212 turned up that day.

This proves that the greedy club owners have ruined a once prestigious competition, admired by thousands and getting better year on year. Where are all these new massive sponsorship deals ? Where is all this money we are supposed to be swimming in ? 

All I saw on the weekend was empty seats, the future of the European club competition for me looks bleak, dwindling crowds, the same teams ALL the time in the knockout stages, lack of interest, the French already consider their own league a priority, for me something drastic needs to be done as it would seem the writing is on the wall for one of our favourite club competitions, it's sad, as it's been well and truly ruined by the greedy club owners.

Take a read of some of these, you might find them interesting:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/04/25/empty-seats-as-saracens-and-racing-92-won-through-must-be-a-wake/
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/much-better-europe-champions-cup-11238143

carpet baboon wrote:If I remember correctly the PRL had to have all the deals agreed to by the rfu. Which is why when the rfu found out about the European deal through a member of another union, the PRL boys got dragged I to HQ and given quite a stern talking too., then again over the salary cap, then again after bts last fishing trip about a new league on behalf of there PRL buddies.  Oh and Simon "my mates got me this job to help them out" halidays comments about the PRL running the England national team also brought a heffty rebuke.
All's not as cuddly between the PRL and rfu as they like to make out.

But the main point being the PRL aint whiter than anyone in there selling of things without permission

RFU had to get down on their hands and knees and beg to keep England teams in the European Cup. All the other unions were ready to cut them until the PRL stirred up the Welsh Regions.

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:Just to cut in, people prefer Sky to BT's coverage ?

Yes. BT's coverage looks amateurish- and Craig Doyle would be better off presenting a travel programme. Sara Elgan is a bit fluffy.

Stuart Barnes has been at it a lot longer than Dallagio & Co.

He's also been a massive bellwhiff longer than Marathon has been Snickers though.

I'd much rather all games were on BT Sports.

quinsforever wrote:Quoting Neil Francis is like mentioning the nazis...an admission you have lost t'internet...

With no sponsors, no gate money, its lucky that the Champs Cup has BT to bail us all out. Those old celtic blazers knew what they were at when getting the guarantee of 20m per annum.

By the way, the former ERC CEO, Derek McGrath is now the CEO of Curragh Race Course (which is being redeveloped).

carpet baboon wrote:If I remember correctly the PRL had to have all the deals agreed to by the rfu. Which is why when the rfu found out about the European deal through a member of another union, the PRL boys got dragged I to HQ and given quite a stern talking too., then again over the salary cap, then again after bts last fishing trip about a new league on behalf of there PRL buddies.  Oh and Simon "my mates got me this job to help them out" halidays comments about the PRL running the England national team also brought a heffty rebuke.
All's not as cuddly between the PRL and rfu as they like to make out.

But the main point being the PRL aint whiter than anyone in there selling of things without permission

Are you sure?

The RFU have outsourced the competitions to PRL and the salary cap is solely a PRL issue. They set it and they govern it. So what is this about 'stern talking to'?

Aren't the RFU and PRL about to sign a £200m+ 6 year deal? That's quite cuddly.

And PRL didn't sell anything without permission. They just noted that if the rest of Europe wanted them to play in a Cup competition then there were certain caveats to that.

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:If I remember correctly the PRL had to have all the deals agreed to by the rfu. Which is why when the rfu found out about the European deal through a member of another union, the PRL boys got dragged I to HQ and given quite a stern talking too., then again over the salary cap, then again after bts last fishing trip about a new league on behalf of there PRL buddies.  Oh and Simon "my mates got me this job to help them out" halidays comments about the PRL running the England national team also brought a heffty rebuke.
All's not as cuddly between the PRL and rfu as they like to make out.

But the main point being the PRL aint whiter than anyone in there selling of things without permission

Are you sure?

The RFU have outsourced the competitions to PRL and the salary cap is solely a PRL issue. They set it and they govern it. So what is this about 'stern talking to'?

Aren't the RFU and PRL about to sign a £200m+ 6 year deal? That's quite cuddly.

And PRL didn't sell anything without permission. They just noted that if the rest of Europe wanted them to play in a Cup competition then there were certain caveats to that.

Phill I'm very happy that everything I stated is true. Very very happy.

And yes they are about to sign a deal. Do you know what's in it?

speaking of the interest just not being there..... I get the impression this might be the last club season on 606v2. The numbers have gone down drastically in the last 6 months. And the fans on here are diehard, but they've been put off by all of this mess as well. It's a mess by all sides.

3m viewers for an all Parisien european match sounds like a great figure. BT and Sky must have been delighted with those viewing figures, whoever had it. I presume all english matches in the knock outs pulled in similar numbers.

It is wierd how there hasn't been more press releases about viewing numbers and how great it all is.

And it's interesting how the PRL well and truly won in this. Because their main goal was to take european competitions from being run by 6 Unions to being controlled by the top leagues. So now everyone talks about pro12 doing poorly in europe compared to previous years. And in reality it was the Irish provinces that were doing well, the Scots/Welsh/Italians have performed similarly in the 'new' competition but it gets reclassed into pro12.

carpet baboon wrote:
Phill I'm very happy that everything I stated is true. Very very happy.

And yes they are about to sign a deal. Do you know what's in it?

You being happy with it doesn't make it true, however.

I do like your posting style, however. Makes me chuckle each time.

Ahhh Phil. Not going to answer? Do you know the details of this new deal?

carpet baboon wrote:Ahhh Phil. Not going to answer? Do you know the details of this new deal?

Only what's been in the Press.

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

No Toulon and Saracen s  aare buying it these days phill, well there very wealthy backers, not hard work though.

So tell me how much Mourad put in last year.

Do tell.

Why last year, why not throughout his ownership of Toulon? Botha, Gitea, Hayman, Williams, Smith, Fernandez-Lobbe, Basteraud, Armitage bros, Nonu would not have been cheap. It sure did help with the gates though, hence profit, but a team full of those players would do just that. I imagine he puts in less now than he did then.

Toulon, Saracens and Racing (30M budget?) do seem to be buying it, although Saracens are moving away from the concept and focusing more on developing English players.

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:If I remember correctly the PRL had to have all the deals agreed to by the rfu. Which is why when the rfu found out about the European deal through a member of another union, the PRL boys got dragged I to HQ and given quite a stern talking too., then again over the salary cap, then again after bts last fishing trip about a new league on behalf of there PRL buddies.  Oh and Simon "my mates got me this job to help them out" halidays comments about the PRL running the England national team also brought a heffty rebuke.
All's not as cuddly between the PRL and rfu as they like to make out.

But the main point being the PRL aint whiter than anyone in there selling of things without permission

Are you sure?

The RFU have outsourced the competitions to PRL and the salary cap is solely a PRL issue. They set it and they govern it. So what is this about 'stern talking to'?

Aren't the RFU and PRL about to sign a £200m+ 6 year deal? That's quite cuddly.

And PRL didn't sell anything without permission. They just noted that if the rest of Europe wanted them to play in a Cup competition then there were certain caveats to that.

They sold the media rights to a cross border competition which required RFU approval. And anyway, it was the HCup that BT were after and why they got a premium for the Aviva Premiership. Without European rugby, their Aviva Prem. rights would have a valuation more in line with the PRO12.

Even the players are not arsed anymore. Castro preferred to head off to Vegas rather than play in a Euro semi final.

How can it be saved?

No 7&1/2 wrote:How can it be saved?

Hope and pray that the Irish Provinces come good quickly and get the crowds back travelling.

We need at least 3 Welsh & 3 Irish to mix it up a bit. I think the old format of 24 was better perhaps. And 1 broadcaster.

Yeah fair enough comment. I do think strong teams from the Pro 12 will help. The Irish have been through a tough couple of years, think the WC generally hit you hard as well. Have high hopes Glasgow will come back next year a little stronger as well.

I'm loving it. Fantastic competition but it needs a beer as a sponsor.

It needs a blyddi salary cap.

Never going to happen though munkian. It would rule out most players for the French and English top clubs.

Blah.........

The truth is the Celts want this competition to fail.

TightHEAD wrote:Blah.........

The truth is the Celts want this competition to fail.

Another trick they're learning from PRL?

But yes..... we did intimidate all people who wanted to go to recent games and told them in no uncertain terms...."Burn your tickets and look for refunds................. or else................ the pet canary gets it."

Oh we can play it tough when needed. You should see what we have planned for the final!!! God, it's like.... it's...it's perfect. Stay tuned.

You're getting the Scots to turn up with bag pipes aren't you! You fiends.

TightHEAD wrote:Blah.........

The truth is the Celts want this competition to fail.

A collection of tribes who existed pre BC for saw this shambles ? Probably should have concentrated on the Romans...

mikey_dragon wrote:

Why last year, why not throughout his ownership of Toulon? Botha, Gitea, Hayman, Williams, Smith, Fernandez-Lobbe, Basteraud, Armitage bros, Nonu would not have been cheap. It sure did help with the gates though, hence profit, but a team full of those players would do just that. I imagine he puts in less now than he did then.

Toulon, Saracens and Racing (30M budget?) do seem to be buying it, although Saracens are moving away from the concept and focusing more on developing English players.

You don't have to 'imagine' anything. It's all in the public domain for you to see.

Sin é wrote:
They sold the media rights to a cross border competition which required RFU approval. And anyway, it was the HCup that BT were after and why they got a premium for the Aviva Premiership. Without European rugby, their Aviva Prem. rights would have a valuation more in line with the PRO12.

The final sentence is untrue as is the second, all proven by the latest TV deal they got.

They sold to BT the fact that they wouldn't play in a competition that wasn't broadcast by BT. They were perfectly within their rights to do that.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Never going to happen though munkian. It would rule out most players for the French and English top clubs.

Oh, the irony.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
They sold the media rights to a cross border competition which required RFU approval. And anyway, it was the HCup that BT were after and why they got a premium for the Aviva Premiership. Without European rugby, their Aviva Prem. rights would have a valuation more in line with the PRO12.

The final sentence is untrue as is the second, all proven by the latest TV deal they got.

They sold to BT the fact that they wouldn't play in a competition that wasn't broadcast by BT. They were perfectly within their rights to do that.

Yeah - it's called putting your chips on Red 8 and the croupier winking at you.

I have no interest because of the qualification process in the pro12. Cardiff haven't been good enough to get in to the main competition and I accept that, what I don't accept is the Italian teams occupying 11 & 12 this year will have one of them in it.

gcBlues wrote:I have no interest because of the qualification process in the pro12.  Cardiff haven't been good enough to get in to the main competition and I accept that, what I don't accept is the Italian teams occupying 11 & 12 this year will have one of them in it.

How has that been any different to before? at least now (bar the Italians) its based on league position rather than undeserving teams being offered a free pass. I agree the free Italian spot needs removing though

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Never going to happen though munkian. It would rule out most players for the French and English top clubs.

Oh, the irony.

Why?

True Raven wrote:

gcBlues wrote:I have no interest because of the qualification process in the pro12.  Cardiff haven't been good enough to get in to the main competition and I accept that, what I don't accept is the Italian teams occupying 11 & 12 this year will have one of them in it.

How has that been any different to before?   at least now (bar the Italians) its based on league position rather than undeserving teams being offered a free pass.  I agree the free Italian spot needs removing though

Well before this cup we didn't have the top 6 ruling. If this is the way we're going to go with the pro12 then entry should be based on ranking in the league, not the ranking of your team in relation to fellow teams in your union. If you're not good enough, you're not good enough.

What is the point of Treviso going in to a competition with teams like Saracens, Leicester, racing and Toulon? What's the benefit?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Never going to happen though munkian. It would rule out most players for the French and English top clubs.

Oh, the irony.

Why?

Phill refuses to the understand how the province's are funded. He believes we have the highest wage bill in rugby.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
They sold the media rights to a cross border competition which required RFU approval. And anyway, it was the HCup that BT were after and why they got a premium for the Aviva Premiership. Without European rugby, their Aviva Prem. rights would have a valuation more in line with the PRO12.

The final sentence is untrue as is the second, all proven by the latest TV deal they got.

They sold to BT the fact that they wouldn't play in a competition that wasn't broadcast by BT. They were perfectly within their rights to do that.

Yea, and to hell with everyone else was their attitude.

Facts are they needed the permission of the RFU to sell their broadcasting rights in a cross border competition.

carpet baboon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Never going to happen though munkian. It would rule out most players for the French and English top clubs.

Oh, the irony.

Why?

Phill refuses to the understand how the province's are funded. He believes we have the highest wage bill in rugby.

Ok. So the irony being that he feels it would help the English and French? I just can't see the top teams there wanting to limit themselves in such a way.

PhilBB wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Why last year, why not throughout his ownership of Toulon? Botha, Gitea, Hayman, Williams, Smith, Fernandez-Lobbe, Basteraud, Armitage bros, Nonu would not have been cheap. It sure did help with the gates though, hence profit, but a team full of those players would do just that. I imagine he puts in less now than he did then.

Toulon, Saracens and Racing (30M budget?) do seem to be buying it, although Saracens are moving away from the concept and focusing more on developing English players.

You don't have to 'imagine' anything. It's all in the public domain for you to see.

I can't be bothered to look, I was hoping you'd post it for me.

mikey_dragon wrote:Toulon, Saracens and Racing (30M budget?) do seem to be buying it, although Saracens are moving away from the concept and focusing more on developing English players.

Saracens still have the smallest academy in the AP haven't they?

Are they developing these English players elsewhere to keep them off the books?

I agree with the comment above that 606v2 is dying on the rugby boards.

Too much nationalism displayed when they reorganised the club rugby competition. Too many people it turns out view their clubs as proxies for their counties in club competitions. And who thus couldn't handle changes which removed the disadvantages of the auld enemy...

Plus censor-like moderation in the last 2 years have made 606 boring

Aukster. Sarries contribute I think 9 players to this grand slam. Most in their early 20s. What's your point again?

They have a very good academy and supplement it with some signings of relatively young players who need polishing off.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/empty-seats-show-champions-cup-still-in-search-of-identity-1.2625478

Good article on it. Look at some of the nonsense comments from the PRL and you'll see why it angered a lot of people. The absolute bullscheisse they were talking but the English fans and media believed everything they said.

That's the Irish version of a walesonline article (or the Daily Mail is the British national press).

Badly written and utterly biased and hyperbolic.

...but the Irish fans will believe everything they said

profitus, you and Lord Dowlais should go into competition for the 'worst sources' award!

Not sure what would have been different had the same games been played under a different name though?

What dosent help is when the guy who was brought in to make sure this competition is a success gives his first interview and spends it telling everyone that the English national team should be run by the PRL.

Cyril wrote:That's the Irish version of a walesonline article (or the Daily Mail is the British national press).

Badly written and utterly biased and hyperbolic.

...but the Irish fans will believe everything they said

profitus, you and Lord Dowlais should go into competition for the 'worst sources' award!

It is biased, but not hyperbolic. All the hyperbole came from the PRL apologists during their power grab. They promised much, delivered little (thus far), and were believed by many.

And there wouldn't be any issue if, say, Leinster had been good enough to reach the final;or any pro 12 team had reached the semis. Overall there really isn't that much difference. Fewer below par teams, more fairly balanced between the leagues.

quinsforever wrote:I agree with the comment above that 606v2 is dying on the rugby boards.

Too much nationalism displayed when they reorganised the club rugby competition. Too many people it turns out view their clubs as proxies for their counties in club competitions. And who thus couldn't handle changes which removed the disadvantages of the auld enemy...

Above - quins: "theres a great chance (about 50:50) of england winning 6N grand slam AND the euro club competition. how many times has that been done before? ireland in 2009 and france in 2010. twice.
no mean feat."

What natural law, though, presumes that to support the play thing of one or two rich business men in a completely different country is more noble a pursuit than supporting teams close enough to you that you can drive to them in an hour or so, that are stuffed with young players that you hope will one day represent your Nation at International, and that because of that old bird nationhood, you feel are an essential part of You?

This notion that Club loyalties should shift to where 'favourite' players go brings me back to the days at school long ago now when we shared and swapped bloody football cards of favourite players.  If people want to follow rugby on a 'favourite' player basis - so be it - fine.  If they want to follow rugby based on the colour of jerseys or because of a particular coach or because their Dad did before them - fine.  If people want to follow teams because they are from the same Nation.....  hmmm, something very suspect about that.  It's probably too revolutionary for me and I think that World Rugby should ban such fans completely.... they might have a bomb innit.

Sorry what disadvantages were there to English teams in the old tournament?

In regards to what?

I don't know quins said the new competition removed the disadvantages. What were they?

No 7&1/2 wrote:And there wouldn't be any issue if, say, Leinster had been good enough to reach the final;or any pro 12 team had reached the semis. Overall there really isn't that much difference. Fewer below par teams, more fairly balanced between the leagues.

If things weren't different, BT wouldn't have paid the big money to turn it all on its head. The differences are fundamental, and meant to be. And the plan isn't finished. English teams have yet to end their cap. But they will.... and of course some of them have already started to get a head start on the posse It's all change.... there's money to be made by the elected elite.

Oh, no idea. Each club has the same chance once you're in really. Maybe seeding?