European rugby, the interest just isn't there

First topic message reminder :

I know I will get a bashing off some quarters on here, but sorry it has to be said, looking at the crowds for the two semi-finals on the weekend, it would seem the interest is not there. The aggregate figure for the two games was a paltry 38,968 people, there was more people than that for the Cardiff Blues V Leicester semi final a few years ago 44,212 turned up that day.

This proves that the greedy club owners have ruined a once prestigious competition, admired by thousands and getting better year on year. Where are all these new massive sponsorship deals ? Where is all this money we are supposed to be swimming in ? 

All I saw on the weekend was empty seats, the future of the European club competition for me looks bleak, dwindling crowds, the same teams ALL the time in the knockout stages, lack of interest, the French already consider their own league a priority, for me something drastic needs to be done as it would seem the writing is on the wall for one of our favourite club competitions, it's sad, as it's been well and truly ruined by the greedy club owners.

Take a read of some of these, you might find them interesting:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/04/25/empty-seats-as-saracens-and-racing-92-won-through-must-be-a-wake/
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/much-better-europe-champions-cup-11238143

Fanster wrote:

Cyril wrote:Didn't the Pro12 force the Italians to pay for the honour of joining the league?

Yes, which was poor form from the pro 12 officials. I think the idea was it to be short term until they become self sufficient and commercially viable to pay their way, don't beleive that would happen though!

We aren't exactly the richest league to be offering free places to be fair - I imagine the Italians TV rights profits were very poor compared to the rest of the Unions so a fee was imposed ?

If the Italian teams were dependent on European games to the extent that Fanster seems to suggest then any change in the European competition would be liable to be very dangerous to them. Italian teams have sadly had a poor history to date and there are a whole bunch of factors contributing to that. Putting the state of Italian club rugby down to actions of the PRL is utter BS.

Sin é wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Cyril wrote:Didn't the Pro12 force the Italians to pay for the honour of joining the league?

The Italians were asked to make a commitment to the PRO12 in which the SRU, IRFU & WRU had been investing in heavily for the previous 6 or 7 years - i.e., the FIR bought their share of the competition.

Hav they 'bought' their share yet?

I think so. They are regarded as shareholders and they sit on the PRO12 Board. They are still paying something to balance out their lack of provision of sponsorship / broadcasting money.

So kicking them out isn't an option?

munkian wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Cyril wrote:Didn't the Pro12 force the Italians to pay for the honour of joining the league?

Yes, which was poor form from the pro 12 officials. I think the idea was it to be short term until they become self sufficient and commercially viable to pay their way, don't beleive that would happen though!

We aren't exactly the richest league to be offering free places to be fair - I imagine the Italians TV rights profits were very poor compared to the rest of the Unions so a fee was imposed  ?

When the Italians joined the individual unions kept their own tv revenue, the fee was to cover the costs of the other teams which ignored the fact that they had to make two trips each to Italy compared to 10 to the UK and Ireland for the two Italian teams

lostinwales wrote:If the Italian teams were dependent on European games to the extent that Fanster seems to suggest then any change in the European competition would be liable to be very dangerous to them. Italian teams have sadly had a poor history to date and there are a whole bunch of factors contributing to that. Putting the state of Italian club rugby down to actions of the PRL is utter BS.

The state of the Italian game is down to the FIR and a little the other Pro 12 teams

Fanster wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Cyril wrote:Didn't the Pro12 force the Italians to pay for the honour of joining the league?

The Italians were asked to make a commitment to the PRO12 in which the SRU, IRFU & WRU had been investing in heavily for the previous 6 or 7 years - i.e., the FIR bought their share of the competition.

Hav they 'bought' their share yet?

I think so. They are regarded as shareholders and they sit on the PRO12 Board. They are still paying something to balance out their lack of provision of sponsorship / broadcasting money.

So kicking them out isn't an option?

Not at the moment anyway. I think everyone is signed up until about 2018 or 2019 when they will draw up another agreement (not sure if its a 4 or 6 year cycle).

lostinwales wrote:If the Italian teams were dependent on European games to the extent that Fanster seems to suggest then any change in the European competition would be liable to be very dangerous to them. Italian teams have sadly had a poor history to date and there are a whole bunch of factors contributing to that. Putting the state of Italian club rugby down to actions of the PRL is utter BS.

What?

I'm not saying they were dependant on euro games, they are heavily dependant on euro money, however during the massive man sausage up that was the PRL power grab they lost the majority of their playing staff, and as a result havve had to employ semi pros to take their place, and work their international competition off the back of controlling very few of their players now.

The PRL instigated and destabilised europe, which negatively effected Italian rugby, that is fact, not BS!

Im not saying the Italians are perfect, they have and will have many issues, but in this current environment their largest problem is recovery from the destabilization of europe, of which set their development back 10 years.

Before the European debacle, Italy were setting up a 3rd team close to Venice called Doge. That had to be put on the back burner.

I think Conor O'Shea and Steve Aboud will improve Italian rugby greatly. Can't see either of those 2 going there if they didn't think there was a good chance of success.

Sin é wrote:Before the European debacle, Italy were setting up a 3rd team close to Venice called Doge. That had to be put on the back burner.

I think Conor O'Shea and Steve Aboud will improve Italian rugby greatly. Can't see either of those 2 going there if they didn't think there was a good chance of success.

Thats a good point!

I like O Shea, but don't see him making an impact with the ageing squad and lack of true quality coming through, when they have little control or access to their players.

Why should PRL give 2 poops about Italian rugby?

Rugby is a professional sport and as we are constantly reminded, everyone in the EU has free mobility of labour

Blaming PRL is absurd for Italy's woes

quinsforever wrote:No point being nostalgic fanster. The competition is much more competitive now.

So much so that you all want to ditch the 1 Italian team from an auto spot....lmao

Equally it can be argued that the competition if far less competitive now depending on which league viewpoint you take. Removing the so called "disadvantages" to the AP that the PRL used as their manifesto has now tipped the balance heavily in favour of the teams who can afford superior squads.

The competition has removed most of the elements of randomness by dropping weaker teams (who still had an outside chance of an upset) but whose presence often impacted other pools not just their own. The competition will continue to narrow the field of those truly capable of winning... and why not - if someone is prepared to build a bigger and higher quality squad than someone else then why shouldn't they win all the time?

Fanster wrote:

lostinwales wrote:If the Italian teams were dependent on European games to the extent that Fanster seems to suggest then any change in the European competition would be liable to be very dangerous to them. Italian teams have sadly had a poor history to date and there are a whole bunch of factors contributing to that. Putting the state of Italian club rugby down to actions of the PRL is utter BS.

What?

I'm not saying they were dependant on euro games, they are heavily dependant on euro money, however during the massive man sausage up that was the PRL power grab they lost the majority of their playing staff, and as a result havve had to employ semi pros to take their place, and work their international competition off the back of controlling very few of their players now.

The PRL instigated and destabilised europe, which negatively effected Italian rugby, that is fact, not BS!

Im not saying the Italians are perfect, they have and will have many issues, but in this current environment their largest problem is recovery from the destabilization of europe, of which set their development back 10 years.

It is BS. They play in the Pro 12. The PRL and French driven initiatives were to do with European cup games, and were all about changing governance and cash flow and nothing to do with the running of the Pro12. Relying heavily on European cup money (whilst being so useless in the competition) is no way to run a club. It makes them sound like a charity case. If they have failed due to the changes this time then they would have failed due to any set of changes.

Look - everyone wants the Italian teams to be sustainable, and to do well, but I for one don't know what the best way of enabling that is. The current systems do not seem to be working and blaming the PRL is like shooting the messenger rather than actually trying to deal with the underlying problems.

quinsforever wrote:Why should PRL give 2 poops about Italian rugby?

Rugby is a professional sport and as we are constantly reminded, everyone in the EU has free mobility of labour

Blaming PRL is absurd for Italy's woes

Proof the footballisation of rugby is well and truly engrained!!!

We are not the largest sport in the world, we can't afford to alienate markets such as Italy, we can't look at super rugby giving valuable spots to Argentinian and Japanese rugby in order to develop the sport and say to ourselves 'Frak Italy'!

Your attitude is disgracefull

Fanster wrote:

Sin é wrote:Before the European debacle, Italy were setting up a 3rd team close to Venice called Doge. That had to be put on the back burner.

I think Conor O'Shea and Steve Aboud will improve Italian rugby greatly. Can't see either of those 2 going there if they didn't think there was a good chance of success.

Thats a good point!

I like O Shea, but don't see him making an impact with the ageing squad and lack of true quality coming through, when they have little control or access to their players.

FIR have set up about 15 academies and they are hoping to grow their own players from these. O'Shea has experience of England academy and Steve Aboud with IRFU as Tecnical Director responsible for Elite Dev (or some such)!

Fanster wrote:

Sin é wrote:Before the European debacle, Italy were setting up a 3rd team close to Venice called Doge. That had to be put on the back burner.

I think Conor O'Shea and Steve Aboud will improve Italian rugby greatly. Can't see either of those 2 going there if they didn't think there was a good chance of success.

Thats a good point!

I like O Shea, but don't see him making an impact with the ageing squad and lack of true quality coming through, when they have little control or access to their players.

Who says theres a lack of true quality coming through? Guys like Allen, Canna, Campagnaro and Odiete are 23, Sarto is 24 and they have a handful of other decent players well short of their prime

They have shown they can compete with the best but regularly fall short over the distance because most lack the fitness.

Aboud as well will be working on the developmental side of things because THEY DO HAVE THE CONTROL

Reducing the six nations? How about a 3 nations? Take England and France then the others alternate playing over a 4 year cycle. England and France is where the money is anyway. Mind you, they could change the rules and recruit the best from the other 4 nations into their test sides, that way you could bring it down to a single international test match each year to decide a NH champion. Those two teams can be controlled by the PRL and LNR potentially. And turn it into an all-star weekend in the middle of each's season.

BT and Sky can bit for each alternating minute of the match. And the commentators will only be able to talk about what's happened during their allocated portions of the game.

That would let the Top14 and Aviva free to expand both their leagues with more weekends freed up.

lostinwales wrote:

Fanster wrote:

lostinwales wrote:If the Italian teams were dependent on European games to the extent that Fanster seems to suggest then any change in the European competition would be liable to be very dangerous to them. Italian teams have sadly had a poor history to date and there are a whole bunch of factors contributing to that. Putting the state of Italian club rugby down to actions of the PRL is utter BS.

What?

I'm not saying they were dependant on euro games, they are heavily dependant on euro money, however during the massive man sausage up that was the PRL power grab they lost the majority of their playing staff, and as a result havve had to employ semi pros to take their place, and work their international competition off the back of controlling very few of their players now.

The PRL instigated and destabilised europe, which negatively effected Italian rugby, that is fact, not BS!

Im not saying the Italians are perfect, they have and will have many issues, but in this current environment their largest problem is recovery from the destabilization of europe, of which set their development back 10 years.

It is BS. They play in the Pro 12. The PRL and French driven initiatives were to do with European cup games, and were all about changing governance and cash flow and nothing to do with the running of the Pro12. Relying heavily on European cup money (whilst being so useless in the competition) is no way to run a club. It makes them sound like a charity case. If they have failed due to the changes this time then they would have failed due to any set of changes.

Look - everyone wants the Italian teams to be sustainable, and to do well, but I for one don't know what the best way of enabling that is. The current systems do not seem to be working and blaming the PRL is like shooting the messenger rather than actually trying to deal with the underlying problems.

That is deluded drivel...

The PRL's greatest argument was all to do with how the Pro 12 was run! It wasn't fair that qualification from pro 12 teams was guarentee'd, and therefore they have to qualify through league position instead. This was an argument based around changing pro 12 structure!

lostinwales wrote:

Fanster wrote:

lostinwales wrote:If the Italian teams were dependent on European games to the extent that Fanster seems to suggest then any change in the European competition would be liable to be very dangerous to them. Italian teams have sadly had a poor history to date and there are a whole bunch of factors contributing to that. Putting the state of Italian club rugby down to actions of the PRL is utter BS.

What?

I'm not saying they were dependant on euro games, they are heavily dependant on euro money, however during the massive man sausage up that was the PRL power grab they lost the majority of their playing staff, and as a result havve had to employ semi pros to take their place, and work their international competition off the back of controlling very few of their players now.

The PRL instigated and destabilised europe, which negatively effected Italian rugby, that is fact, not BS!

Im not saying the Italians are perfect, they have and will have many issues, but in this current environment their largest problem is recovery from the destabilization of europe, of which set their development back 10 years.

It is BS. They play in the Pro 12. The PRL and French driven initiatives were to do with European cup games, and were all about changing governance and cash flow and nothing to do with the running of the Pro12. Relying heavily on European cup money (whilst being so useless in the competition) is no way to run a club. It makes them sound like a charity case. If they have failed due to the changes this time then they would have failed due to any set of changes.

Look - everyone wants the Italian teams to be sustainable, and to do well, but I for one don't know what the best way of enabling that is. The current systems do not seem to be working and blaming the PRL is like shooting the messenger rather than actually trying to deal with the underlying problems.

The Welsh Regions were leaving the PRO12 Rugby to play some anglo welsh cup or something. The long and the short of it is that 24 players left the Italian teams because they were worried about their jobs as they thought there might not be a pro12 to play in.

Fanster wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Fanster wrote:

lostinwales wrote:If the Italian teams were dependent on European games to the extent that Fanster seems to suggest then any change in the European competition would be liable to be very dangerous to them. Italian teams have sadly had a poor history to date and there are a whole bunch of factors contributing to that. Putting the state of Italian club rugby down to actions of the PRL is utter BS.

What?

I'm not saying they were dependant on euro games, they are heavily dependant on euro money, however during the massive man sausage up that was the PRL power grab they lost the majority of their playing staff, and as a result havve had to employ semi pros to take their place, and work their international competition off the back of controlling very few of their players now.

The PRL instigated and destabilised europe, which negatively effected Italian rugby, that is fact, not BS!

Im not saying the Italians are perfect, they have and will have many issues, but in this current environment their largest problem is recovery from the destabilization of europe, of which set their development back 10 years.

It is BS. They play in the Pro 12. The PRL and French driven initiatives were to do with European cup games, and were all about changing governance and cash flow and nothing to do with the running of the Pro12. Relying heavily on European cup money (whilst being so useless in the competition) is no way to run a club. It makes them sound like a charity case. If they have failed due to the changes this time then they would have failed due to any set of changes.

Look - everyone wants the Italian teams to be sustainable, and to do well, but I for one don't know what the best way of enabling that is. The current systems do not seem to be working and blaming the PRL is like shooting the messenger rather than actually trying to deal with the underlying problems.

That is deluded drivel...

The PRL's greatest argument was all to do with how the Pro 12 was run! It wasn't fair that qualification from pro 12 teams was guarentee'd, and therefore they have to qualify through league position instead. This was an argument based around changing pro 12 structure!

The PRL will be really peed off when they see Connacht in the Champs Cup next season on MERIT They used bang on about Connacht frequently not deserving to play Heineken Cup (because they had come in because Leinster won the HCup).

quinsforever wrote:Why should PRL give 2 poops about Italian rugby?

No reasons at all.  After all, they couldn't give any reasons for not giving 2 schidts about rugby in Scotland and Wales either (and they're in the same Realm! ).

No, nobody expects PRL to care about anything but themselves...but then that's been the debate.  And when it's said directly, their defenders say the PRL are actually quite cuddly, loveable, very very empathetic, have respect for everyone, love kittens and are greatly, greatly misunderstood.

Lol. U guys crack me up.

I don't have an attitude to Italian club rugby. I'm just saying that neither does nor should the PRL. Unions may care. An organisation representing 12 English clubs won't.

Saracens are the same squad as they have been for the last 3 years. Their younger guys are just a bit better than they were. The provinces have the opposite - lost some experienced players in key positions. That and that alone is why no provinces made the semis. These things go in cycles. Spare us the melodrama of oh no it's all the PRL's fault...

When the whole thing was kicked off by the french union anyway! Conveniently ignored as PRL fits the pantomime villain costume so much better

marty2086 wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Sin é wrote:Before the European debacle, Italy were setting up a 3rd team close to Venice called Doge. That had to be put on the back burner.

I think Conor O'Shea and Steve Aboud will improve Italian rugby greatly. Can't see either of those 2 going there if they didn't think there was a good chance of success.

Thats a good point!

I like O Shea, but don't see him making an impact with the ageing squad and lack of true quality coming through, when they have little control or access to their players.

Who says theres a lack of true quality coming through? Guys like Allen, Canna, Campagnaro and Odiete are 23, Sarto is 24 and they have a handful of other decent players well short of their prime

They have shown they can compete with the best but regularly fall short over the distance because most lack the fitness.

Aboud as well will be working on the developmental side of things because THEY DO HAVE THE CONTROL

14 of their current 6N squad are over the age of 30

2 of the players you mention are vying for the same position, and one was made in Scotland.

There are at least 7/8 of the current squad who are barely pro level players, let alone international, of which 4 don't play for pro clubs

8 of their squad (all first teamers) don't play in Italy.

The truth is Campagnaro is a stand out back in what is an average club backline, and the pack needs to replace 4/5 first team players through age and retirement.

They do love kittens, I will give them that much.


But then..... so does Blofeld!

As I mentioned above. I am thrilled at how well Connacht are doing. That is exactly why there should be qualification from the pro12. They see it as an opportunity and have responded. Everyone else views it as a threat

Things will settle down eventually.

quinsforever wrote:Lol. U guys crack me up.

I don't have an attitude to Italian club rugby. I'm just saying that neither does nor should the PRL. Unions may care. An organisation representing 12 English clubs won't.

Saracens are the same squad as they have been for the last 3 years. Their younger guys are just a bit better than they were. The provinces have the opposite - lost some experienced players in key positions. That and that alone is why no provinces made the semis. These things go in cycles. Spare us the melodrama of oh no it's all the PRL's fault...

When the whole thing was kicked off by the french union anyway! Conveniently ignored as PRL fits the pantomime villain costume so much better

What are you talking about?

Firstly we all have a responsibility to rugby, the sport and it's development!

Secondly it was Maccafferty who led the charge to euro reform, the LNR simply wanted the final date change. Maccafferty signed a new deal, and was the reason the ECR doesn't exist (Sorry what am I saying, after claiming they were incompetant and out of date he hired tham all to run his new EPCR)

quinsforever wrote:As I mentioned above. I am thrilled at how well Connacht are doing. That is exactly why there should be qualification from the pro12. They see it as an opportunity and have responded. Everyone else views it as a threat

Things will settle down eventually.

It will, but realistically it will be without those pesky Italians, or even without a european comp.

Fanster wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Lol. U guys crack me up.

I don't have an attitude to Italian club rugby. I'm just saying that neither does nor should the PRL. Unions may care. An organisation representing 12 English clubs won't.

Saracens are the same squad as they have been for the last 3 years. Their younger guys are just a bit better than they were. The provinces have the opposite - lost some experienced players in key positions. That and that alone is why no provinces made the semis. These things go in cycles. Spare us the melodrama of oh no it's all the PRL's fault...

When the whole thing was kicked off by the french union anyway! Conveniently ignored as PRL fits the pantomime villain costume so much better

What are you talking about?

Firstly we all have a responsibility to rugby, the sport and it's development!

Secondly it was Maccafferty who led the charge to euro reform, the LNR simply wanted the final date change. Maccafferty signed a new deal, and was the reason the ECR doesn't exist (Sorry what am I saying, after claiming they were incompetant and out of date he hired tham all to run his new EPCR)

Most of them said no to the move. Derek McGrath stayed around for the first year, still based in Dublin (which must have got a pretty penny). Something like 18 of the 21 didn't move to the new organisation.

Fanster wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Sin é wrote:Before the European debacle, Italy were setting up a 3rd team close to Venice called Doge. That had to be put on the back burner.

I think Conor O'Shea and Steve Aboud will improve Italian rugby greatly. Can't see either of those 2 going there if they didn't think there was a good chance of success.

Thats a good point!

I like O Shea, but don't see him making an impact with the ageing squad and lack of true quality coming through, when they have little control or access to their players.

Who says theres a lack of true quality coming through? Guys like Allen, Canna, Campagnaro and Odiete are 23, Sarto is 24 and they have a handful of other decent players well short of their prime

They have shown they can compete with the best but regularly fall short over the distance because most lack the fitness.

Aboud as well will be working on the developmental side of things because THEY DO HAVE THE CONTROL

14 of their current 6N squad are over the age of 30

2 of the players you mention are vying for the same position, and one was made in Scotland.

There are at least 7/8 of the current squad who are barely pro level players, let alone international, of which 4 don't play for pro clubs

8 of their squad (all first teamers) don't play in Italy.

The truth is Campagnaro is a stand out back in what is an average club backline, and the pack needs to replace 4/5 first team players through age and retirement.

Their current 6Ns squad was patchwork due to injuries yet had some young players who showed glimpses of talent so who cares where one was born they have quality coming through despite what you say

Without a European comp, Celtic rugby goes back to the dark ages. So I hope you are wrong.

quinsforever wrote:Without a European comp, Celtic rugby goes back to the dark ages. So I hope you are wrong.

Mourad Boudjellal wants a European League. He is bored with the cup.

Sin é wrote:

Fanster wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Fanster wrote:

lostinwales wrote:If the Italian teams were dependent on European games to the extent that Fanster seems to suggest then any change in the European competition would be liable to be very dangerous to them. Italian teams have sadly had a poor history to date and there are a whole bunch of factors contributing to that. Putting the state of Italian club rugby down to actions of the PRL is utter BS.

What?

I'm not saying they were dependant on euro games, they are heavily dependant on euro money, however during the massive man sausage up that was the PRL power grab they lost the majority of their playing staff, and as a result havve had to employ semi pros to take their place, and work their international competition off the back of controlling very few of their players now.

The PRL instigated and destabilised europe, which negatively effected Italian rugby, that is fact, not BS!

Im not saying the Italians are perfect, they have and will have many issues, but in this current environment their largest problem is recovery from the destabilization of europe, of which set their development back 10 years.

It is BS. They play in the Pro 12. The PRL and French driven initiatives were to do with European cup games, and were all about changing governance and cash flow and nothing to do with the running of the Pro12. Relying heavily on European cup money (whilst being so useless in the competition) is no way to run a club. It makes them sound like a charity case. If they have failed due to the changes this time then they would have failed due to any set of changes.

Look - everyone wants the Italian teams to be sustainable, and to do well, but I for one don't know what the best way of enabling that is. The current systems do not seem to be working and blaming the PRL is like shooting the messenger rather than actually trying to deal with the underlying problems.

That is deluded drivel...

The PRL's greatest argument was all to do with how the Pro 12 was run! It wasn't fair that qualification from pro 12 teams was guarentee'd, and therefore they have to qualify through league position instead. This was an argument based around changing pro 12 structure!

The PRL will be really peed off when they see Connacht in the Champs Cup next season on MERIT    They used bang on about Connacht frequently not deserving to play Heineken Cup (because they had come in because Leinster won the HCup).

Hooray for Connacht, and lets hope they have an impact in Europe. Why pray would them qualifying upset the PRL? Surely this just a reward for a team playing well?

quinsforever wrote:As I mentioned above. I am thrilled at how well Connacht are doing. That is exactly why there should be qualification from the pro12. They see it as an opportunity and have responded. Everyone else views it as a threat

Things will settle down eventually.

Quins that is absolutely wrong. So wrong. Ireland entered the top 3 teams from the pro 12. They underfunded them for years. The stopped doing that before this new cup. They were on there way to the top regardless

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Without a European comp, Celtic rugby goes back to the dark ages. So I hope you are wrong.

Mourad Boudjellal wants a European League. He is bored with the cup.

Mourad............ go have a sandwich on your private yacht or something. Admit it, you're bored with rugby itself. NEXT!

Marty

It is a bit patchwork, but not as much as you'd think. Allen being born elsewhere doesn't matter, when talking about players 'coming through' you meant through the Italian system, he did not.

Not many of those new faces showed that much potential, 2/3 possibly, but going forward with a poor backline, and a pack of kids things don't bode well for them.

Like I said, 10 years for the clubs to become competitive, maybe more for the national team.

Fanster wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Why should PRL give 2 poops about Italian rugby?

Rugby is a professional sport and as we are constantly reminded, everyone in the EU has free mobility of labour

Blaming PRL is absurd for Italy's woes

Proof the footballisation of rugby is well and truly engrained!!!

We are not the largest sport in the world, we can't afford to alienate markets such as Italy, we can't look at super rugby giving valuable spots to Argentinian and Japanese rugby in order to develop the sport and say to ourselves 'Frak Italy'!

Your attitude is disgracefull

In Italy you have to find a market before you can alienate it. Italian rugby has a decent history but its not exactly been growing much over the last few years, changes in european cup or no.

Rugby is a big deal in Argentina and Japan - they are completely different.

lostinwales wrote:In Italy you have to find a market before you can alienate it. Italian rugby has a decent history but its not exactly been growing much over the last few years, changes in european cup or no.

Rugby is a big deal in Argentina and Japan - they are completely different.

I take it you do not watch the 6N's then ? When the national side sells out it's tickets.

Fanster wrote:Marty

It is a bit patchwork, but not as much as you'd think. Allen being born elsewhere doesn't matter, when talking about players 'coming through' you meant through the Italian system, he did not.

Not many of those new faces showed that much potential, 2/3 possibly, but going forward with a poor backline, and a pack of kids things don't bode well for them.

Like I said, 10 years for the clubs to become competitive, maybe more for the national team.

Thanks for trying to tell me what I meant but I merely meant players coming through in general

Using semi pro players, missing in excess of 15 players is only slightly patchwork?

They have a decent base to build with and other have gotten by on less so I guess time will tell

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:In Italy you have to find a market before you can alienate it. Italian rugby has a decent history but its not exactly been growing much over the last few years, changes in european cup or no.

Rugby is a big deal in Argentina and Japan - they are completely different.

I take it you do not watch the 6N's then ? When the national side sells out it's tickets.

The problem for Italy is getting the fans to buy into the Pro 12 teams, they started out with promise but the interest has waned over the years and so has the revenue. They need stars and a few good performances and at the minute both are lacking

marty2086 wrote:The problem for Italy is getting the fans to buy into the Pro 12 teams, they started out with promise but the interest has waned over the years and so has the revenue. They need stars and a few good performances and at the minute both are lacking

I wonder what a difference it would make if Sergio Parrise came to one of the Italian teams, or Castro Giovanni, it's players like that they need to get back.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Never going to happen though munkian. It would rule out most players for the French and English top clubs.

Oh, the irony.

Why?

Because the IRFU bought it and don't operate to a salary cap. Never have done.

I'd have thought that was blindingly obvious.

carpet baboon wrote:

Phill refuses to the understand how the province's are funded. He believes we have the highest wage bill in rugby.

Ah, another lie.

Well done, Babs, you're quite the chap.

Sin é wrote:

Yea, and to hell with everyone else was their attitude.

Facts are they needed the permission of the RFU to sell their broadcasting rights in a cross border competition.

It was an attitude mirrored by the IRFU, don't forget, except they didn't have any ammunition.

Facts are they wouldn't have played in a cross border competition unless they could sell their own rights. Remember, they pulled out of Europe. It was no more.

15 million per player so far. I'm not ashamed to admit it. The IRFU look after their players. They deserve that kind of money, super sports cars don't come cheap.

quinsforever wrote:Too much nationalism displayed when they reorganised the club rugby competition. Too many people it turns out view their clubs as proxies for their counties in club competitions. And who thus couldn't handle changes which removed the disadvantages of the auld enemy...

quinsforever wrote:The provinces have the opposite - lost some experienced players in key positions. That and that alone is why no provinces made the semis. These things go in cycles. Spare us the melodrama of oh no it's all the PRL's fault...

On the one hand you say the PRO12 sides couldn't handle the changes that removed the English teams' disadvantages, but then on the other you say that had no bearing.

Were there disadvantages or not?

Fans couldn't handle the removal of the disadvantages. As is clear from them leaving 606.

The results however have been due to some teams being better while others aren't as good as they were.

Of course it's impossible to know what the impact of the changes was. But the gulf between the pro12 teams this season and the rest suggests that there still would have been no pro12 teams in the semis. That's just part if the ebb and flow.

quinsforever wrote:Fans couldn't handle the removal of the disadvantages. As is clear from them leaving 606.

The results however have been due to some teams being better while others aren't as good as they were.

Of course it's impossible to know what the impact of the changes was. But the gulf between the pro12 teams this season and the rest suggests that there still would have been no pro12 teams in the semis. That's just part if the ebb and flow.

Yes...when things ebbed our way...the PRL recalibrated the rules to flow them back their way

It's nature. It's the cycle of the planet. It's the gravity of the moon....

But you're right, I do honestly believe the tide will ebb back a bit our way (Provinces, that is) in a year or two when we readjust to the new dimensions, given Pro12 was the only League that had to adapt to new dimensions - - not necessarily wins but more competitive.
So I believe we'll be back. But I dread (actually quite look forward to ) hearing what the new excuses will be that can't include 'not trying in Pro12', 'cotton wool cocooned best players', 'foreign mercenaries' etc etc....

No excuses any more. It's an even playing field. Will be even more even (and help pro12 on average a little bit) if you do decide to not give an Italian champs league spot. But that's completely up to pro12.

I am sad that the Irish fans aren't as engaged but have no doubt they will be back once their teams and coaches transition.

quinsforever wrote:No excuses any more. It's an even playing field. Will be even more even (and help pro12 on average a little bit)  if you do decide to not give an Italian champs league spot. But that's completely up to pro12.

I am sad that the Irish fans aren't as engaged but have no doubt they will be back once their teams and coaches transition.

You could be right quins. But as lo ng as Craig and McCaffrey are involved I will have my suspicions. They show contempt for there own league, how must they feel about everyone else

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Never going to happen though munkian. It would rule out most players for the French and English top clubs.

Oh, the irony.

Why?

Because the IRFU bought it and don't operate to a salary cap. Never have done.

I'd have thought that was blindingly obvious.

Where exactly is the irony?

lostinwales wrote:Rugby is a big deal in Argentina and Japan - they are completely different.

Rugby is not really a big deal in Japan.