European rugby, the interest just isn't there

First topic message reminder :

I know I will get a bashing off some quarters on here, but sorry it has to be said, looking at the crowds for the two semi-finals on the weekend, it would seem the interest is not there. The aggregate figure for the two games was a paltry 38,968 people, there was more people than that for the Cardiff Blues V Leicester semi final a few years ago 44,212 turned up that day.

This proves that the greedy club owners have ruined a once prestigious competition, admired by thousands and getting better year on year. Where are all these new massive sponsorship deals ? Where is all this money we are supposed to be swimming in ? 

All I saw on the weekend was empty seats, the future of the European club competition for me looks bleak, dwindling crowds, the same teams ALL the time in the knockout stages, lack of interest, the French already consider their own league a priority, for me something drastic needs to be done as it would seem the writing is on the wall for one of our favourite club competitions, it's sad, as it's been well and truly ruined by the greedy club owners.

Take a read of some of these, you might find them interesting:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/04/25/empty-seats-as-saracens-and-racing-92-won-through-must-be-a-wake/
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/much-better-europe-champions-cup-11238143

No 7&1/2 wrote:So it's the Welsh clubs not paying the market value and relying on the WRU to top up the wages,

Not quite, no. Nice spin attempt, however.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
You mean do I read every single article about Irish rugby? Why do I need to you do it all for us and tell us how it is?

That's true. Good to see you've learned something else today, too.

Seems you have misread my sarcasm, typical Phil

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Were you calling for the AP to change its model since they didn't win the HC/ERCC for 9 years?

The Welsh have never won under private ownership so should they go back to union control?

The Welsh have never had union control, so how could they go back to it? It seems that you've made yet another error, there.

The AP changed its income structure in order to being able to compete with the gerrymandered branches. They are now miles ahead. Most of the stuff coming out of Ireland now is about how the IRFU will have to give in, somehow, to private ownership in order to make up the gap. I'm looking forward to seeing how that manifests itself beyond pumping up a Heaslip restaurant.

Sorry I meant the previous club model but nice of you to ignore the main point

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
You mean do I read every single article about Irish rugby? Why do I need to you do it all for us and tell us how it is?

That's true. Good to see you've learned something else today, too.

Seems you have misread my sarcasm, typical Phil

Another Martyn post where the irony is only overwhelmed by the sorry for the lack of self awareness.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:WRU play for services provided.

You've changed your tune, as always, making things up to suit your argument. When I said this a few weeks ago you told me I was clueless.

It's probably best that you provide the link to support that claim as it looks like another blatant lie to me.

I cannot be @rsed to trawl through numerous threads on here. But it was about NDC's and the Irish CC's and somebody was asking what the difference was. 

You did say it Phil, I will try and find it but you did say it.

marty2086 wrote:
Sorry I meant the previous club model  but nice of you to ignore the main point

Erm, the model is now the same for three of the four as it always has been.

And I didn't ignore your point.

LordDowlais wrote:
I cannot be @rsed to trawl through numerous threads on here. But it was about NDC's and the Irish CC's and somebody was asking what the difference was. 

You did say it Phil, I will try and find it but you did say it.

Well, you be the big boy and find the post and then we can have a go at explaining it to you.

Ok so everybody else can stick with the same model regardless of success or failure but the Irish have to change but you don't have an issue with the Irish. Yes Phil Im the one with self awareness problems

marty2086 wrote:Ok so everybody else can stick with the same model regardless of success or failure but the Irish have to change but you don't have an issue with the Irish. Yes Phil Im the one with self awareness problems

The others have a growth path in their model. Please show me the growth path in the Irish model.

If you read your rugby press, the shout for private investment is getting louder and louder.

And, let's be honest, when the IRFU does finally enter even the 20th century, Leinster are going to fly. Possibly, probably as it is basically a country, so should Ulster.

PhilBB wrote:
And the bit in bold is just an admittance that the Irish can't get pro rugby to pay for itself, probably because of their archaic structure, top down approach and inability to generate a decent TV contract. As the crowd levels show this season, when the team starts losing then the income starts dropping and the top down structure has no ability to cover for that.

The Irish system isn't perfect but it has served Irish rugby well. It's not like the RFU or WRU are truly separated from the English clubs or Welsh regions.


If anything, when looking at what's happening in Ireland and compare it to Wales, the Irish system is more coordinated while the Welsh suffer from in fighting etc.


The IRFU allows competition between the provinces. They can run themselves and make most of their own decisions. While I'd agree that running things top down is generally inferior for a government, the IRFU is more like a company.

Growth Path?

WTF?

profitius wrote:

The Irish system isn't perfect but it has served Irish rugby well. It's not like the RFU or WRU are truly separated from the English clubs or Welsh regions.


If anything, when looking at what's happening in Ireland and compare it to Wales, the Irish system is more coordinated while the Welsh suffer from in fighting etc.

Oh don't tell him that! At least they have a Growth Path. Besides, it's the IRFU that are holding back that Growth Path... and Lewis...and the new Guy who has to wait until Lewis's agreements with the Regions run out......

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Ok so everybody else can stick with the same model regardless of success or failure but the Irish have to change but you don't have an issue with the Irish. Yes Phil Im the one with self awareness problems

The others have a growth path in their model. Please show me the growth path in the Irish model.

If you read your rugby press, the shout for private investment is getting louder and louder.

And, let's be honest, when the IRFU does finally enter even the 20th century, Leinster are going to fly. Possibly, probably as it is basically a country, so should Ulster.

Aren't growth paths more for governments?

I'll dig out the email IRFU sent though with their business plan attached!

Then again I could point to the recently announced Barbarians game at Ravenhill, the Maoris visit to Munster as new revenue streams for the Provinces.
The plans to grow rugby across Ireland and within the provinces, Ulster are already beneficiaries of it all as 5 years ago they only broke 10k at Ravenhill for interpros now they have the highest attendances in the Pro 12 and better than most in Europe.

SecretFly wrote:Growth Path?

WTF?

You did not see the press release?

We are pleased to announce a new sustainable growth path providing a synergistic pathway to excellence. This has followed extensive benchmarking across a wide range of market leading industries. We are confident that all the low hanging fruit will be collected thus facilitating our projected growth spurt towards the summit of the global game.

My eyes hurt trying to read that much jargon LT

LondonTiger wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Growth Path?

WTF?

You did not see the press release?

We are pleased to announce a new sustainable growth path providing a synergistic pathway to excellence. This has followed extensive benchmarking across  a wide range of market leading industries. We are confident that all the low hanging fruit will be collected thus facilitating our projected growth spurt towards the summit of the global game.

At least now I fully understand resonating cofactor equivalence theory at least............

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So it's the Welsh clubs not paying the market value and relying on the WRU to top up the wages,

Not quite, no. Nice spin attempt, however.

No spin there. The Union helps out the clubs to be able to afford the top Welsh players. Fair enough.

The IRFU will have to consider private sector funding for the provinces if they are going to continue to compete at European level.  

Funding of individual players is not sustainable in my view as a robust model.  

Would the union give up majority control?   They may not want to, but they may be forced to.  What would happen with their current employees - players and coaches?

marty2086 wrote:

Aren't growth paths more for governments?

I'll dig out the email IRFU sent though with their business plan attached!

Then again I could point to the recently announced Barbarians game at Ravenhill, the Maoris visit to Munster as new revenue streams for the Provinces.
The plans to grow rugby across Ireland and within the provinces, Ulster are already beneficiaries of it all as 5 years ago they only broke 10k at Ravenhill for interpros now they have the highest attendances in the Pro 12 and better than most in Europe.

Growth paths are for any organisation that wants to grow. The IRFU needs to increase its income as its necessary expenditure is soon to be unaffordable. How is it going to do it? The noise in the Irish press suggests some form of private involvement.

Munster need to clear double figure millions of debt. A game against the Maoris in the international window will go a tiny way to clearing that deficit.

If you think that the Irish will be able to compete with the big boys in European rugby under its present model then your voice is being increasingly drowned out by others.

No 7&1/2 wrote:
No spin there. The Union helps out the clubs to be able to afford the top Welsh players. Fair enough.

It's the other way around, Champ.

Pot Hale wrote:The IRFU will have to consider private sector funding for the provinces if they are going to continue to compete at European level.  

Funding of individual players is not sustainable in my view as a robust model.  

Would the union give up majority control?   They may not want to, but they may be forced to.  What would happen with their current employees - players and coaches?

Exactly.

PhilBB wrote:Growth paths are for any organisation that wants to grow. The IRFU needs to increase its income as its necessary expenditure is soon to be unaffordable. How is it going to do it? The noise in the Irish press suggests some form of private involvement.

There is already private involvement in Irish rugby so maybe the press you're reading aren't quite as informed as you would like

PhilBB wrote:Munster need to clear double figure millions of debt. A game against the Maoris in the international window will go a tiny way to clearing that deficit.

The games are significant as for the past few years the IRFU have been reluctant to allow these games, so its a change in approach which can allow extra revenue to be generated going forward

PhilBB wrote:If you think that the Irish will be able to compete with the big boys in European rugby under its present model then your voice is being increasingly drowned out by others.

And you say this when the future is nowhere near clear on pretty much every front so you can't say that based on anything but opinion based guesswork

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
No spin there. The Union helps out the clubs to be able to afford the top Welsh players. Fair enough.

It's the other way around, Champ.

The clubs help pay the Union? So the Welsh clubs rent players from the WRU. Interesting. So both still contribute to the players salary.

Pot Hale wrote:The IRFU will have to consider private sector funding for the provinces if they are going to continue to compete at European level.  

Funding of individual players is not sustainable in my view as a robust model.  

Would the union give up majority control?   They may not want to, but they may be forced to.  What would happen with their current employees - players and coaches?

Well if the Private sector began to fund more and then began to look for majority control - the concept of Province goes too.  
No Private guy or syndicate can present themselves for ownership takeover of a 'Province' and demand loyalty to the old model under new ownership rules.  

So what the Private owners would be buying/taking-over is simply a team - a city club.  Dublin, Belfast, Limerick or Cork, Galway.  That opens up the possibility of more Privately funded clubs entering the field and before you know it, we might have enough 'well funded teams' to have our own National Premier League? No Welsh, Scots or Italians needed? 

It's a theory but an unlikely one.  But going with the theory, that's bad and good possibilities to all prospective futures.  

Personally speaking, there is no Denis O'Brien owned Dublin based team, for example,  that I'd owe any allegiance to.  I'd then prefer a North Leinster unit to start up and give the basterde (will 606 ever get over itself and stop censuring that word - it's a legitimate English word, thanks    ) a run for his money  
I also think Dublin is unfortunately where most private money would want to go should a pattern of Privatisation come - as we already see in GAA, where Dublin are bit by bit sucking the competitive life out of all other counties given their use of big budgets to create virtual Professionals in a supposedly amateur sport.

Of course too, I think it a touch fantastical in real terms as I doubt any potential owner would feel he is willing to stuff mega bucks even into a Dublin Super club when if that money was there to use, they'd feel a better return would come from investing in an English club or French one.  

Didn't a few Irish Racehorse barons have a stake in Manchester United once?  Did any of them ever try having a stake in an Irish League football side?  

There is a reason why Irish based Professional Football doesn't work on a big scale to compete with the best in the world.  The Private model simply can't compete due to population densities and sponsorship returns.  

The Provincial Model pools resources and keeps a creaking ship steadyish.  You cannot look at the last 15 years or so, you can't look at the period since professionalism began and say anything other than that the Provincial system has been a success to date.  It has certainly allowed Irish teams to fight above their weight.

It might need a degree of wise restructuring to bolster the model again, but as a foundation system, the Provinces work.  The suicidal thing to do now would be for rashly chosen 'solutions' to be instigated before letting the dust settle on the European Civil War.  Let the dust settle - no panic buttons - and see where we all are in a few years time.

marty2086 wrote:

There is already private involvement in Irish rugby so maybe the press you're reading aren't quite as informed as you would like

You should have picked up on my Heaslip restaurant comment to have cottoned on to me understanding the very limited present private investment involvement.

marty2086 wrote:
The games are significant as for the past few years the IRFU have been reluctant to allow these games, so its a change in approach which can allow extra revenue to be generated going forward

Sure, but when you're €10m+ in debt, playing the Maori once a year ain't going to make enough of a difference.

marty2086 wrote:
And you say this when the future is nowhere near clear on pretty much every front so you can't say that based on anything but opinion based guesswork

Oh, my prediction for the future is opinion based guesswork.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
The games are significant as for the past few years the IRFU have been reluctant to allow these games, so its a change in approach which can allow extra revenue to be generated going forward

Sure, but when you're €10m+ in debt, playing the Maori once a year ain't going to make enough of a difference.

I would think it will go a long way to clearing their debt. The big problem for them has been the falling attendances. So I'm sure that will be their focus. Munster will be fine.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

There is already private involvement in Irish rugby so maybe the press you're reading aren't quite as informed as you would like

You should have picked up on my Heaslip restaurant comment to have cottoned on to me understanding the very limited present private investment involvement.

Are you talking about the Bridge? Whats that got to do with anything?

The private investment comes in many forms, see Sextons return, selling of naming right for grounds, investors paying for training facilities so that's not exactly limited

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
The games are significant as for the past few years the IRFU have been reluctant to allow these games, so its a change in approach which can allow extra revenue to be generated going forward

Sure, but when you're €10m+ in debt, playing the Maori once a year ain't going to make enough of a difference.

If it becomes an annual occurrence its actually a good way of closing part of the gap, add in moving to one training base it cuts a sizeable overhead again closing part of the gap. Having shed some big wages recently theres another saving.

Theres work under way to address Munsters debt and an improvement in form will go even further to closing the gap when it leads to improved crowds

Munchkin wrote:
I would think it will go a long way to clearing their debt. The big problem for them has been the falling attendances. So I'm sure that will be their focus. Munster will be fine.

If you think it will go a long way to clearing their debt please could you a) quantify that debt and b) tell me what you think this game will generate.

Thanks.

marty2086 wrote:
Are you talking about the Bridge? Whats that got to do with anything?

The private investment comes in many forms, see Sextons return, selling of naming right for grounds, investors paying for training facilities so that's not exactly limited

David Walsh. The Jo'burger group. Does it mean anything to you?

Read Niall Woods on this.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Are you talking about the Bridge? Whats that got to do with anything?

The private investment comes in many forms, see Sextons return, selling of naming right for grounds, investors paying for training facilities so that's not exactly limited

David Walsh. The Jo'burger group. Does it mean anything to you?

Read Niall Woods on this.

Maybe you'd like to tell us since you know everything already

marty2086 wrote:

Maybe you'd like to tell us since you know everything already

I've pointed you in the right direction. I know my skill in pitching education low enough for you to grasp is lacking, so you've had your names and now it's the turn of google.ie to help you out.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Maybe you'd like to tell us since you know everything already

I've pointed you in the right direction. I know my skill in pitching education low enough for you to grasp is lacking, so you've had your names and now it's the turn of google.ie to help you out.

Or link it since you know where it is

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Maybe you'd like to tell us since you know everything already

I've pointed you in the right direction. I know my skill in pitching education low enough for you to grasp is lacking, so you've had your names and now it's the turn of google.ie to help you out.

Or link it since you know where it is

Links plural. I've given you the search terms. Google will be your friend.

Before that, however, do quantify Munster's debt for me and how this Maori game will eat into it. Thanks.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Maybe you'd like to tell us since you know everything already

I've pointed you in the right direction. I know my skill in pitching education low enough for you to grasp is lacking, so you've had your names and now it's the turn of google.ie to help you out.

Or link it since you know where it is

Links plural. I've given you the search terms. Google will be your friend.

Before that, however, do quantify Munster's debt for me and how this Maori game will eat into it. Thanks.

I did Google it and found nothing to shed any liht on what you are waffling about, so hes invested in a restaurant. Shock horror

I can't quantify it as the full figures won't be known until after the games actually held but it is being staged to generate a profit. Said profit offers opportunity to pay off debt, not rocket science

marty2086 wrote:

I did Google it and found nothing to shed any liht on what you are waffling about, so hes invested in a restaurant. Shock horror

I can't quantify it as the full figures won't be known until after the games actually held but it is being staged to generate a profit. Said profit offers opportunity to pay off debt, not rocket science

You wrote: "I would think it will go a long way to clearing their debt". How could you claim that if a) you can't tell what their debt is or b) the finances of the deal with the Maori?

It seems like you were making it up. Or guessing. Or writing on something that you know little. Again.

As for the private investment, you seem unable to put 2 and 2 together. Think of it like the Carter deal.

Here we go again, and you all fall for it so easily.  

The Welsh Regions have slumped even further within the Pro12 this season and still PhilBB once more twists the debate back to the Provincial IRFU system - and once more contends that the Union owned system is failing?  

Four Provinces through to Europe on this new thing called 'Merit' this time (and apart from Connacht, pretty much all of them playing well below their best), plus three of them in the Pro12 playoffs.

But who needs to get their house in order and revise their funding methodology and even perhaps 'ownership' systems?..............................   Em, the IRFU.  Logical, innit.

Me - I think WRU need to kick ass and restructure the failing Regions to reflect the IRFU model.  Just boot those eejit owners to the sideline, pay them off and drag the Regions back up the ladder of quality and consistency.  We need the Welsh Regions to be strong.  These incompetents that are in charge at the moment have proven their credentials for long enough, and the credentials suggest they don't really know what they're doing.

What goes around, comes around.  Let's talk about the area of the Pro12 that really does need much more chat and solutions.  Talking about the breadwinner is unproductive.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I would think it will go a long way to clearing their debt. The big problem for them has been the falling attendances. So I'm sure that will be their focus. Munster will be fine.

If you think it will go a long way to clearing their debt please could you a) quantify that debt and b) tell me what you think this game will generate.

Thanks.

I don't know the exact figures, Phil. Last I looked, Munster owed €9m on a €39m stadium after 10 years. I do know Munster slipped further into debt over the last season (€2m?), and that falling attendances would have been a contributing factor. It isn't as bleak as it sounds though. At least they will have something to show for their money, once the debt is paid.

I don't know how much the Maori game will generate, but it should generate more than €500k, however, it's more important that they reverse the trend in falling attendance for league games, which I think they will.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

I did Google it and found nothing to shed any liht on what you are waffling about, so hes invested in a restaurant. Shock horror

I can't quantify it as the full figures won't be known until after the games actually held but it is being staged to generate a profit. Said profit offers opportunity to pay off debt, not rocket science

You wrote: "I would think it will go a long way to clearing their debt". How could you claim that if a) you can't tell what their debt is or b) the finances of the deal with the Maori?

It seems like you were making it up. Or guessing. Or writing on something that you know little. Again.

As for the private investment, you seem unable to put 2 and 2 together. Think of it like the Carter deal.

I didn't claim that, Munchkin did

It seems you are too quick to make claims

I could think of it like the Carter deal or I could think your reluctance to provide a link is because your links are non existent and are just making things up now

Heaslip invested in Bear in 2012, his new deal wasn't signed until 2014 which included new image rights clauses etc so it seems your 'facts' don't add up

Not your day is it Phil

Munchkin wrote:
I don't know the exact figures, Phil. Last I looked, Munster owed €9m on a €39m stadium after 10 years. I do know Munster slipped further into debt over the last season (€2m?), and that falling attendances would have been a contributing factor. It isn't as bleak as it sounds though. At least they will have something to show for their money, once the debt is paid.

I don't know how much the Maori game will generate, but it should generate more than €500k, however, it's more important that they reverse the trend in falling attendance for league games, which I think they will.

Generate €500k after costs? Really? I'm surprised.

marty2086 wrote:

I didn't claim that, Munchkin did

Sorry, Martyn, you're right. I mixed you up. Apologies for that.

marty2086 wrote:
I could think of it like the Carter deal or I could think your reluctance to provide a link is because your links are non existent and are just making things up now

Heaslip invested in Bear in 2012, his new deal wasn't signed until 2014 which included new image rights clauses etc so it seems your 'facts' don't add up

Not your day is it Phil

Erm, you found the link yourself to the business investments to get the guys up and running with interests outside of rugby, so how the hell could I be making things up?

You seem now incapable of putting the 2+2 into knowing that the 'private' help isn't new in Irish rugby but is now growing.

Your inability to put things together astounds me. That you're so cocky whilst being so dumb is amazing.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't know the exact figures, Phil. Last I looked, Munster owed €9m on a €39m stadium after 10 years. I do know Munster slipped further into debt over the last season (€2m?), and that falling attendances would have been a contributing factor. It isn't as bleak as it sounds though. At least they will have something to show for their money, once the debt is paid.

I don't know how much the Maori game will generate, but it should generate more than €500k, however, it's more important that they reverse the trend in falling attendance for league games, which I think they will.

Generate €500k after costs? Really? I'm surprised.

The costs wouldn't be that high. It isn't as if they are renting the stadium. I guess a lot depends on how much the Maori's get out of it though.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
I could think of it like the Carter deal or I could think your reluctance to provide a link is because your links are non existent and are just making things up now

Heaslip invested in Bear in 2012, his new deal wasn't signed until 2014 which included new image rights clauses etc so it seems your 'facts' don't add up

Not your day is it Phil

Erm, you found the link yourself to the business investments to get the guys up and running with interests outside of rugby, so how the hell could I be making things up?

You seem now incapable of putting the 2+2 into knowing that the 'private' help isn't new in Irish rugby but is now growing.

Your inability to put things together astounds me. That you're so cocky whilst being so dumb is amazing.

Actually Phil you seem to be the one with the problem, players investing their own money isn't anything to do with private investment in rugby. Two separate issues

You ignorant and belligerent nature and need to challenge anything and everything to prove your point is actually quite comical and a little sad.

You've tried creating an issue around a separate issue to mask your failure to prove your point

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't know the exact figures, Phil. Last I looked, Munster owed €9m on a €39m stadium after 10 years. I do know Munster slipped further into debt over the last season (€2m?), and that falling attendances would have been a contributing factor. It isn't as bleak as it sounds though. At least they will have something to show for their money, once the debt is paid.

I don't know how much the Maori game will generate, but it should generate more than €500k, however, it's more important that they reverse the trend in falling attendance for league games, which I think they will.

Generate €500k after costs? Really? I'm surprised.

I'm not sure on those figures.

are they taking into account maori cut, and overheads?

Welly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't know the exact figures, Phil. Last I looked, Munster owed €9m on a €39m stadium after 10 years. I do know Munster slipped further into debt over the last season (€2m?), and that falling attendances would have been a contributing factor. It isn't as bleak as it sounds though. At least they will have something to show for their money, once the debt is paid.

I don't know how much the Maori game will generate, but it should generate more than €500k, however, it's more important that they reverse the trend in falling attendance for league games, which I think they will.

Generate €500k after costs? Really? I'm surprised.

I'm not sure on those figures.

are they taking into account maori cut, and overheads?

Well if they sell out at €25 a ticket (average) = €650,000, and that's before drinks/merchandise, etc.

As above; I don't know the Maori split. Whatever the Munster profit is, it will be significant in helping reduce debt though.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Maybe you'd like to tell us since you know everything already

I've pointed you in the right direction. I know my skill in pitching education low enough for you to grasp is lacking, so you've had your names and now it's the turn of google.ie to help you out.

Or link it since you know where it is

Links plural. I've given you the search terms. Google will be your friend.

Before that, however, do quantify Munster's debt for me and how this Maori game will eat into it. Thanks.

Laughable for someone demanding links for his own comments.

I would like to propose the introduction of a new law, somewhat akin to Godwin's Law. We could perhaps call it Chunky's Law and it would go something like:

"As a 606v2 discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Welsh and Irish systems approaches 1"