England's Squad for Wales Game on 29th May

First topic message reminder :

Suggestions today that Jones will name an initial training squad tomorrow for this fixture. While losing AP semi-finalists have not been completely ruled out from the fixture, it while be interesting to see who is named.

I cant see Wales putting out a full strength team either. Whats to be gained with big tours coming up.

Both sides will put out an inexperienced side with players who have something to prove or young untried players for the coaches to have a look at.

I think you underestimate how much Gatland would enjoy tanking England at Twickenham

Forwards:
Dave Attwood, - deserves another shot
Kieran Brookes, - be interesting to see if he can play a whole game
Jack Clifford, - dropped off a bit in a bad Quins side - needs to regain a bit of form
Charlie Ewels, - don't know much about him, would have thought Kitchener or a few others ahead of him (poss a test for Saxons spot)
Dylan Hartley, - needs gametime
Teimana Harrison, - deserves a shot to impress
Paul Hill, - likely Saxons tour, chance to impress
Matt Kvesic, - this is his chance, needs a big performace doing what EJ has asked him for.
Courtney Lawes, - needs to impress
Joe Marler, - needs gametime
Chris Robshaw, - probably needs a rest
Kyle Sinckler, - deserves a shot, likely saxon
Tommy Taylor. deserves a shot, could sneak into senior tour as injury to George.

Backs: Mike Brown, Luther Burrell, Danny Care, Danny Cipriani, Ollie Devoto, George Ford, Jonathan Joseph, Mike Haley, Alex Lewington, Semesa Rokoduguni, Anthony Watson, Marlande Yarde, Micky Young.

Oh I don't underestimate that...but I just wonder when England has a tour of Australia and Wales a tour of NZ how much both managers will place on this game.

We can only guess and suppose until the actual sides are named.

I wish this had been made a non-cap match, but as the only reason it exists is to raise money ould English XV vs Welsh XV sell as many tickets as England v Wales?

That's true LT

Harry Mallinder has been named in the U20 JWC squad, so we can rule him out of any higher honours this summer.

Devoto and Joseph will most likely start this game, but there are still serious question marks over these shirts.

I think that's sensible for Harry Mallinder.

I think it exists partly to get the squad into the "England" groove and out of their club patterns before the tour. We have tended to suffer on SH tours from not having had time to get the squad working together.

But mostly to raise money, yes.

My main frustration with a full 'capped' test being played here is that there are much more enjoyable games that could be staged to end the season. Festive end of season/early summer matches are played all through club rugby with touring sides playing thrown together club sides and they are great fun to watch. Good weather and two sides looking to play fun rugby at cheap prices so the day is accessible to all ages, families etc.

A full tests between thrown together England and Wales sides with summer tour opportunities and ranking points up for grabs is unlikely to create a great spectacle.

If we want to tag a game on at the end of the season then I'd love to see something such as a 'Premiership side of the season' being coached by the Prem coach of the season against the Baabaas. It could perhaps be staged later in the day with the Army and Navy pushed later in the calendar to be played on the same day and a ladies match on earlier as well. With smart promotion that could be a great way to boost exposure to young fans and families by creating a summer/festive atmosphere for a full days rugby at a good price.

As it stands this fixture is an unnecessary game between two sides guaranteed to play each other once a season and who have already played twice this season. It's over saturation for the fans and an addition to burn-out for players.

Except this England side won't look anything like the sides who have faced Wales lately. I'm looking forward to seeing some of the fringle players.

Welly wrote:Really like the idea of the saxons being for 3rd/4th choice in positions.

Looking at training squad it would suggest that
Haley
Lewington
Ewels
Sinkler

Are def in the saxons (Hopefully)

I'm guessing Young is just making up the numbers and be a 9 to go against care in training.

Maybe a team V Wales (If no top 4 players)
1) Marler
2) Hartley
3) Brookes
4) Attwood
5) Lawes
6) Robshaw
7) Clifford
8) Harrison
9) Care
10) Ford
11) Roko
12) Devoto
13) JJ
14) Watson
15) Brown

16) Taylor
17) Sinkler
18) Hill
19) Ewels
20) Kvesic
21) Young (eww)
22) Cips
23) Lewington/Yarde

With Brown so horribly out of form, now is surely the time to give Watson a start at FB, or even Haley if he shows well in training. Goode is now the best English FB by a country mile, but Watson is probably the future. If Watson starts at FB then Lewington can be given a shot on the wing. I'm slightly disappointed Addison isn't in the squad ahead of Haley, as I think he'd bring more options to the squad.

Similarly, Ford shouldn't start (or, like Brown, tour in my view). Cipriani should be given the opportuity to become the back-up FH.

Michael Young is a strange selection - I'd rather have had a look at Scott Steele (if he is interested in playing for England, which he might not be). I hope Chudley will at least go with the Saxons.

If Wasps lose then Daly should get the 13 shirt. Like Brown and Ford we just haven't seen enough from JJ this season, but unlike the other two I'm sure he will come again for England. EJ doesn't want to give the impression that certain backs are guarenteed a squad place, no matter how poorly they play, and at the moment there is just a hint of that.

For me EJ is much closer to the end state with his forwards then his backs. However there are obviously backrow slots potentially up for grabs. I just can't see Clifford as an international 7 at the moment, so hopefully he'll start at 8 for England here. EJ could then start with Harrison at 6 and Kvesic at 7, and plan to bring on Robshaw for Kvesic (Harrison switching to 7) in the second half.

Again if Wasps lose I guess Mullan will come in. A wildcard would be Genge getting some early involvement.

DaveM

6 Harrison
7 Kvesic
8 Clifford

That would be an interesting back row.

as long as the opposition T5 are not too heavy maybe, not a lot of grunt there and England don't seem to have that much these days either

Well maybe's not pure out and out bulk and grunt....but if the stats are correct:

6 Harrison - 6'2 - 16st 10
7 Kvesic - 6'2 - 16st 7
8 Clifford - 6'4 - 17st 7

They still have some beef and mobility...and they are big carriers and hit the breakdown well.

DaveM wrote:Except this England side won't look anything like the sides who have faced Wales lately. I'm looking forward to seeing some of the fringle players.

Great band.

Clifford has looked a little off the pace these last few weeks, I don't think he's physically ready to start at 8

GeordieFalcon wrote:DaveM

6 Harrison
7 Kvesic
8 Clifford

That would be an interesting back row.

Yes, I'd be happy to see that unit given a go.

If Clifford doesn't perform then I'd give him the summer off. He'll be back next season I'm sure.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

DaveM wrote:Except this England side won't look anything like the sides who have faced Wales lately. I'm looking forward to seeing some of the fringle players.

Great band.

Yeah, although you have to admit they've sold out.

Yes, I prefer their early stuff.

Gatland has announced a full Wales squad. England will have their work cut out. Be a bit of a blow for Wales if they don't win. My head says Wales by a mile. My heart hoping for a sporting upset.

englandglory4ever wrote:Gatland has announced a full Wales squad. England will have their work cut out. Be a bit of a blow for Wales if they don't win. My head says Wales by a mile. My heart hoping for a sporting upset.

If Eddie bolster the side with losing semi-finalists who won't have too heavy a workload in Oz then things should be more interesting.

If Tigers lose then either Slater or Kitchener would be available and a better starting option than Attwood who's just returned from injury. Having Attwood on the bench would be a much better option than Ewels currently as well.

If Wasps lose then Matt Mullan needs to come in. He deserves the chance and Sinckler as reserve loosehead would be idiotic when Waller is available.

Reserve scrum half is the important one after that. Micky Young shouldn't be near an England shirt. If Tigers lose then Youngs could come onto the bench, Wasps - Robson and Exeter - Chudley. One of those three is guaranteed to not be in the final and is a much better player than Young.

Is it a "FULL" full squad...or a semi full squad?

Where is the squad listed?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is it a "FULL" full squad...or a semi full squad?

Where is the squad listed?

Gatland has named his Squad for the NZ tour.

Jones has named a squad for training at the nudist beach in Brighton.


Neither have named a squad for the 29th May, yet.

I see Marler is seeing a Psychologist now.

Dear lord what a load of BS.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see Marler is seeing a Psychologist now.

Dear lord what a load of BS.

Its not news (well maybe on the Beeb it is) and we were talking about it here before.

I don't get why its BS also. There can be a lot of BS around that profession but on the face of things It is actually a very sensible attempt by Marler to get his head in the right place when he's playing. I'd guess that there are a few more who should be doing the same thing

Sports Psychology can be useful. And really it is not so different to sitting down with coaches to talk about things and the mental approach to the game.

Talking to a former sportsman who has appeared in a World Cup in front of 30/40k crowds as Marler is, means that he is talking to someone who understands sporting pressures.

I just don't get why he is deemed so troubled that he needs to sort it out.

The Gypsy thing was a total farce blown out of all proportion - but we've done that to death, and the kick was just plain stupid.

He's got nowhere near the discipline issues a Hartley has or some others.

Society these days is becoming soft.

Maybe ill be labelled a Neanderthal northerner for saying that but im sorry its just the way I feel.

Or Marler might be being as crafty as a weasel here and doing what they (media, management etc) expect him to do, you know the contrition blah and then the good old 'look I'm doing something about it' trick.

Come on - a prop needing counselling - props have feelings?

GeordieFalcon wrote:I just don't get why he is deemed so troubled that he needs to sort it out.

The Gypsy thing was a total farce blown out of all proportion - but we've done that to death, and the kick was just plain stupid.

He's got nowhere near the discipline issues a Hartley has or some others.

Society these days is becoming soft.

Maybe ill be labelled a Neanderthal northerner for saying that but im sorry its just the way I feel.

Marler himself feels he has an issue that he needs help with, an issue that means he is not playing to his full potential. He has admitted he went into a trance against Grenoble and was "out of it" for much of the game. As such he is paying for this out of his own pocket. To me it is no different to Burns hiring Paul Grayson to adress his goal kicking, and Cipriani hiring Margot Wells to improve his speed.

Maybe he is Trailape, I always saw Marler as a bit of a comedian and the character of the group.

If that is the case however LT then fair enough I hope he gets sorted, but I guess I was just brought up in a slightly different environment.

GeordieFalcon wrote:If that is the case however LT then fair enough I hope he gets sorted, but I guess I was just brought up in a slightly different environment.

Most of us were, probably to our detriment too. It is why we tend to sneer at people looking to fix mental issues, but be much more forgiving of those with physical issues. If this makes Marler a better player then excellent. If it is a cynical media stunt then shame on Marler.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see Marler is seeing a Psychologist now.

Dear lord what a load of BS.

That's what Marler thought too. Before he got banned twice in a row.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:If that is the case however LT then fair enough I hope he gets sorted, but I guess I was just brought up in a slightly different environment.

Most of us were, probably to our detriment too. It is why we tend to sneer at people looking to fix mental issues, but be much more forgiving of those with physical issues. If this makes Marler a better player then excellent. If it is a cynical media stunt then shame on Marler.

Lt,

Im not belittling people with mental issues. I have worked with people with huge mental, drug and drink issues through my life. I welcome the professional help they get.

Im querying this case...and many other similar ones that are seemingly becoming the norm. Again its only my opinion and maybe im a throw back to the Dinosaur times but I just question where we are heading as a society.

Poorfour wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see Marler is seeing a Psychologist now.

Dear lord what a load of BS.

That's what Marler thought too. Before he got banned twice in a row.

And that is enough to send him head first to a psychologist?

We don't really know why he's seeing a therapist, maybe because the Gypsygate debacle has effected him mentally,he may be carrying a fear or some anger. I think it's good that he's trying to sort out whatever it is that's bothering him.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Maybe he is Trailape, I always saw Marler as a bit of a comedian and the character of the group.

If that is the case however LT then fair enough I hope he gets sorted, but I guess I was just brought up in a slightly different environment.

Marler is a comedian, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have things to work through. He's an oversized character in a very aggressive sport who's the subject of both unwanted and illegal verbal and physical cheap shots from his counterparts - and who has shown that he needs to do more work on where to draw the line. The alternative is between risking destroying his career and getting it under control and frankly I would be more concerned if he weren't seeking help at this point.

I imagine that a lot of this will be very practical stuff about how to recognise what is going on on the pitch and make sure it's channeled in the right way.

GF, I expect you probably haven't read Steve Peters' The Chimp Paradox (as used by the British Cycling team), but it's worth reading and I imagine that will be the sort of techniques we're talking about. The analogy is a bit silly (but that makes it memorable) but is based on solid neuroscience: your brain has three different ways of reacting: the human (which deals with what you actually want and responds rationally but slowly), the chimp (which reacts quickly and as a chimp would - e.g. if threatened, it lashes out) and the computer (which can respond very quickly to things in ways you've told it to, but can't act independently). The point is that in pressure situations the "chimp" aspect tends to respond in ways that reflect our primate instincts rather than what we might actually want - you can't stop that happening "on the fly" but you can train your brain to respond automatically in more helpful way (the computer).

Marler's been over-reacting to provocation, and what he needs is to develop a set of better responses. Some people can do that by themselves, but if he can achieve it faster with help, then he shouldn't be criticised for getting help. If you'd rather take the risk that he picks up another, and almost certainly longer, ban before he gets it sorted, then you have a better estimation of England's strength in depth at loosehead than I do.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:If that is the case however LT then fair enough I hope he gets sorted, but I guess I was just brought up in a slightly different environment.

Most of us were, probably to our detriment too. It is why we tend to sneer at people looking to fix mental issues, but be much more forgiving of those with physical issues. If this makes Marler a better player then excellent. If it is a cynical media stunt then shame on Marler.

Lt,

Im not belittling people with mental issues. I have worked with people with huge mental, drug and drink issues through my life. I welcome the professional help they get.

Im querying this case...and many other similar ones that are seemingly becoming the norm. Again its only my opinion and maybe im a throw back to the Dinosaur times but I just question where we are heading as a society.  

GF,

Was not trying to accuse you of anything, and used "we" to include me in my post. Thing is I would be happy for every single one of Eddie Jones squad to have sessions with a sports psychologist to try and improve their decision making under pressure - if they feel they need that. Heck Dan cole could do with something to help stop giving away daft break down penalties.

Jeremy Snape, who Marler has seen, was a very average cricketer - who made the utmost of his ability. sure he has never been punched by a second row while scrummaging, but he has bowled for England in front of 80,000 rabid Indian fans in Calcutta. I am sure he can help Marler cope better with the pressure situations.

Whether this shoudl have been publicised quite so loudly? Well........

Well I hope it helps him LT.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well I hope it helps him LT.  

Bet you the first thing he does is grow a silly hairstyle again, having come to the conclusion that "trying to fit in" is not the way to go. Pink Mohawk would be perfect.

Hope Marler reads this. So many on here giving mental care and advice for free. Didn't know we had so many clinitions skilled at curing other peoples mental health woes without even having said one solitary word to their patient. Brilliant and free. Or on the other hand it could be a bunch of nobodies who haven't got a scooby do.

Not sure anyones giving advice E4E.

We've just had a discussion about peoples mental states...and the varying degrees.

When is the team named? Is there going to be additions to this squad? When will they be named? After the semi finals?

GeordieFalcon wrote:When is the team named? Is there going to be additions to this squad? When will they be named? After the semi finals?

In order:

Not sure of exact time/date.
Replacements really rather than additions, so some will drop out from this week's trip to Brighton.
Sunday, probably
Yes.

Thank you kindly!

I see Simpson the Wasps SH is in the 7's squad so hes not likely to be touring

Does that mean Robson may get a chance?

I would like to see a team like this representing (obviously shorn of Chiefs and Sarries) -

Waller
Hartley
Brooks
Attwood
Lawes
Harrison
Kvesic
Clifford
Robson
Ford
Roko
M.Tuilagi
Joseph
Yarde
Watson

Bench -
Marler, Tayler, Sinkler (or Hill), Ewels, Robshaw, B.Youngs, Cipriani


Resting Brown, Care
Would have incl. Lewington or Haley on bench but needed 10 cover
Burrell misses out as need to get Manu gametime at 12.

Yarde really?

Thought his defence vs Montpellier made Ashton's look world class.

This if of course if Exeter and Saracens make the final.

Mullan
Taylor
Brookes
Kitchener
Slater
Harrison
Kvesic
Clifford
Robson
Cipriani
Roko
M.Tuilagi
Joseph
Wade
Miller

Bench -
Waller, Hartley, Hill), Lawes,Robshaw , B.Youngs, Ford,Watson

More experienced players on the bench.

BamBam wrote:I think you underestimate how much Gatland would enjoy tanking England at Twickenham

We do it often not much of a surprise now..... remember the World Cup ??

We need our lads for proper matches in June.

rainbow-warrior wrote:

BamBam wrote:I think you underestimate how much Gatland would enjoy tanking England at Twickenham

We do it often not much of a surprise now..... remember the World Cup ??  

We need our lads for proper matches in June.

To suffer another "plucky" series defeat to NZ