Aviva Play Off 1: Saracens v Leicester Tigers, 21 May

by **George Carlin** Sun 08 May 2016, 3:42 pm

First topic message reminder :

Aviva Play Off 1: Saracens v Leicester Tigers, 21 May - Page 3 Sarace10

Aviva Play Off 1: Saracens v Leicester Tigers, 21 May - Page 3 Leices10

Saracens v Leicester Tigers
21 May 2016
KO: 12:30
Allianz Park

Live on BT Sport

Referee: JP Doyle (115th Premiership game).
Assistant Referees: Craig Maxwell-Keys & Paul Dix.
TMO: Graham Hughes.

A. Head to Head

52 Played 52
19 Wins 28
28 Losses 19
4 Draws 4
1044 Points 1269

B. Form

Sun 20 March 2016
Leicester Tigers 21 - 13 Saracens

Sat 2 January 2016
Saracens 26 - 6 Leicester Tigers

Sat 11 April 2015
Saracens 22 - 6 Leicester Tigers

Sun 16 November 2014
Leicester Tigers 21 - 21 Saracens

C. Teams

Saracens
Aviva Play Off 1: Saracens v Leicester Tigers, 21 May - Page 3 Mark-m10

Aviva Play Off 1: Saracens v Leicester Tigers, 21 May - Page 3 Mark-m10

Goode; Ashton, Taylor, Barritt (capt), Wyles; Farrell, Wigglesworth; M. Vunipola, Brits, Du Plessis, Itoje, Kruis, Rhodes, Fraser, B. Vunipola.

Replacements: George, Barrington, Figallo, Hamilton, Wray, De Kock, Hodgson, Bosch.

Leicester Tigers
Aviva Play Off 1: Saracens v Leicester Tigers, 21 May - Page 3 Richar10

Aviva Play Off 1: Saracens v Leicester Tigers, 21 May - Page 3 Richar10

Tait (capt); Veainu, Betham, Tuilagi, Goneva; Williams, B. Youngs; Ayerza, Thacker, Cole, Barrow, Kitchener, Fitzgerald, O'Connor, McCaffrey.

Replacements: Ghiraldini, Genge, Mulipola, Slater, Evans, Kitto, Bell, Thompstone.

by **Rugby Fan** Sat 21 May 2016, 1:52 pm

Good to have a game. It's like a staged pro wrestling bout at the moment, with the bloke unconscious on the canvas suddenly coming around and belting seven bells out of his opponent.

by king_carlos Sat 21 May 2016, 1:52 pm

Genge for Marcos at this stage is a bold call.

The youngster is a hell of a carrier so it's understandable though.

by nathan Sat 21 May 2016, 1:52 pm

Frak sake Williams

by king_carlos Sat 21 May 2016, 1:54 pm

Sarries proficiency at the line-out has been so much better than Tigers today.

Perhaps get Slater on to offer another jumper, leader and fresh legs.

by nathan Sat 21 May 2016, 1:58 pm

2 players just dumped a tigers player on his head

by nathan Sat 21 May 2016, 2:06 pm

Tigers players need to moan more to the ref as the sarries ones do.

by nathan Sat 21 May 2016, 2:11 pm

what were you thinking Thompstone?!?!

by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sat 21 May 2016, 2:14 pm

What was that from Leicester?! Comedy of errors there

by formerly known as Sam Sat 21 May 2016, 2:15 pm

nathan wrote:Tigers players need to moan more to the ref as the sarries ones do.

He's not given us anything since we got our second try. Three or four breakdowns we've been on the ball and got nothing. We used all our ref credit on the first try.

Kicked out of the ruck by a guy straight in at the side and Ashton scores. Goneva really lazy there though, when the ref is giving you sod all you can't wait for the penalty.

by Sgt_Pooly Sat 21 May 2016, 2:15 pm

The ref has not impacted this game to much extent, Sarries have been pretty dominant.

by nathan Sat 21 May 2016, 2:15 pm

They are all either shattered or they just don;t give a feck

by nathan Sat 21 May 2016, 2:18 pm

lol, JP was pretty quick to give that for holding on.....

by nathan Sat 21 May 2016, 2:19 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:The ref has not impacted this game to much extent, Sarries have been pretty dominant.

He has been Poopie, but don't take anything away from Sarries. They would still of hammered us.

by king_carlos Sat 21 May 2016, 2:21 pm

Ellis Genge is a hell of a talent.

I haven't seen a young English player with that sort of aggression in contact for a while.

by Welly Sat 21 May 2016, 2:21 pm

Ref been fine

Genge has a bright future

by nathan Sat 21 May 2016, 2:22 pm

Welly wrote: Ref been fine

Genge has a bright future

He's been inconsistent at the breakdown

by king_carlos Sat 21 May 2016, 2:25 pm

nathan wrote:
Welly wrote: Ref been fine

Genge has a bright future

He's been inconsistent at the breakdown

Not significantly so, Sarries just applied more pressure so got away with more.

Tigers were just completely outplayed and made far too many unforced handling errors in the first half against a side always capitalise on those errors.

Congrats Sarries.

by nathan Sat 21 May 2016, 2:28 pm

king_carlos wrote:
nathan wrote:
Welly wrote: Ref been fine

Genge has a bright future

He's been inconsistent at the breakdown

Not significantly so, Sarries just applied more pressure so got away with more.

they were constantly holding on to the ball whilst off their feet, the ref was shouting release and they continued to hold on. It slowed our ball down and should of been a penalty many times in the first half. I think Sarries got away with a fair few high tackles today too

Tigers were just completely outplayed and made far too many unforced handling errors in the first half against a side always capitalise on those errors.
Completely agree with this

Congrats Sarries.
indeed, well done Sarries. Best team in England and Europe this season by a mile. Hopefully bodes well for Englands on tour

by **George Carlin** Sat 21 May 2016, 2:30 pm

Well done Sarries - just too good.

by sad_gimp Sat 21 May 2016, 2:37 pm

You don't need the opposition to do anything to get slow ball when Ben Youngs is on the pitch.

Sarries just better all over the pitch. Faster, smarter, more aggressive. Going to be a hell of a job to hear them next week.

by mikey_dragon Sat 21 May 2016, 3:33 pm

Well I think it's clear that this Saracens team are one of the best to grace Europe. They've been years in the making and the end result is likely to be the double, with perhapsa another 2-3 years at the top.

by nathan Sat 21 May 2016, 4:13 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Well I think it's clear that this Saracens team are one of the best to grace Europe. They've been years in the making and the end result is likely to be the double, with perhapsa another 2-3 years at the top.

Just goes to show what breaking the salary cap can do :P

Being serious though, it's good that they are no longer a South Africa B team and have a good amount of young english players. But i think you are right in that they some good years ahead of them.

by formerly known as Sam Sat 21 May 2016, 6:01 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:The ref has not impacted this game to much extent, Sarries have been pretty dominant.

I'm not sure Sarries were significantly more dominant. Their defence was excellent and they applied pressure at the breakdown. What won them the game was their precision, they never throw anything 50/50, they are so well structured that mistakes are rare and they are so focused as a unit that playing together is second nature. When Tigers made a mistake (and we made plenty) Sarries were brutally clinical in how they punished us. They didn't need to control territory, possession or the set piece they only needed to maintain parity and stay focused. Hats off to them.

Tigers well, it's better than last season and we cut through the Sarries defence at times. The style of rugby we played was effective but we're not there yet and the error count and lack of cohesion was miles away from the Sarries well oiled
machine. The result clearly showed the better team.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 22 May 2016, 1:46 pm

Well, we needed things to go our way - all the 50/50 calls. Sadly manu's try was Correctly ruled out on review while Sarries 1st and 3rd probably would have been if reviewed for forward passes.

Sarries though are a team that have played together for a while now and looked like a team that has each other's back and know exactly where each other will be. So strong and physical in defence they forced the mistakes that cost us dear.

The correct team won, and we are some way behind them - but will be closer next year.

by beshocked Mon 23 May 2016, 8:51 am

Personally feel that Leicester are moving too much from their roots of big powerful abrasive forwards. Next season's new signings seem a worrying change in emphasis. Two of your big name signings are backs.

Need to win the game up front first. Small hookers are IMO not the foundation of a strong scrum regardless of their talent outside that.

Also that missed that structure at 10, something that Flood or Andy Goode have given you in the past. Youngs and Williams didn't control proceedings like they should have IMO.

You didn't exert enough pressure yourself. Saracens did some squeezing but Leicester were in charge of their own destiny.

Some think Saracens are a boring team but some of the offloads are very skillful. 3 forwards involved in the first Saracens try.

Sam sorry but you can't call the style of play effective when you lost 44-17. You played too high risk. Saracens are a very calculated team, only attacking in the right areas of the field. Leicester in contrast were playing too much rugby in your own 22 when a kick for territory would have yielded a better result. It's what Saracens enjoy - it's why they've beaten the likes of Wasps,Bath and Quins more often than not.

The most difficult team in most recent seasons for Saracens has been Exeter who play in a very direct way.

Londontiger you could have had a try ruled out for a forward pass, even the commentators agreed. Swings and roundabouts.

Some of the passes can go either way.

Got to say it's the best game I've seen from Wyles in a while. I thought he was unlucky not to get MOTM.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 23 May 2016, 9:04 am

Even you have to admit that tires at 0-0 ruled out are more relevant than those at 31-0. We had one correctly ruled out at 0-0, I would argue you should have had one ruled out at the same score.

As to playing from our own 22 - that was when we made huge ground and kept the ball. We coughed up ball in your half resulting in tries.

I am happy with the way we are playing - we have not been together for a side anywhere near as long as Sarries, but we will improve with familiarity.

by beshocked Mon 23 May 2016, 9:19 am

I agree Londontiger that it's more important. I haven't looked at the passes in huge detail, maybe you're right.

You say you made huge ground in your 22, surely you want to play the ball in the opposition half?

If you play higher risk then eventually against Saracens the mistakes will come as they did. It was a very physical game that took it out of both teams, physical but wouldn't call it heated or dirty which is good.

You talk about familiarity but this is club rugby, the coaches get to work with the players week in week out, surely it should be there by now, especially at the end of a season?

Maybe there will be improvements but surely so will other teams.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 23 May 2016, 9:26 am

Is Farrell a doubt for Exeter? Big loss if it's the case.

by beshocked Mon 23 May 2016, 9:54 am

I expect he will be. It's a loss but I am confident Hodgson can deliver. Admittedly if I was Exeter I would send their big forwards at Hodgson....

Would rather a play a fully fit Hodgson than a dodgy Farrell.

It would be a risk but if there is a 10 crisis in the final I would move Goode to 10.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 23 May 2016, 9:59 am

Each time we ran the ball from the 22, we got into Sarries half and still had possession - for us that is better than kicking.

As someone who spent well over £1,000 last season following my team - I would rather watch the rugby we played this year, than the dirge of last season. Sure the end result is the same - a losing semi-final, but much more enjoyable to watch.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 23 May 2016, 10:02 am

P.S. - when will Sarries build some real changing rooms?

by formerly known as Sam Mon 23 May 2016, 10:46 am

Plus we weren't equipped to beat Sarries at a kicking duel. Sarries had two excellent tactical kickers on the park we had one out of firm tactical kicker. What we did have was more pace and against modern defences there is space out wide (especially when getting past the edge of a blitz). I think the strategy was good but the execution poor. How many did TV drop when breaking into the Sarries back field? That was at least two tries we missed out on.

As for small hookers, it's worked for Sarries with Brits! We've had the problem that Leo and Youngs have been injured for long periods of the season. Bateman is built like a prop but his throwing is terrible, Leo post injury can't throw (our lineout suffered significantly after Thacker came off). Scrum is important but if you can get by there then having a working lineout is more important and as you say Thacker is great around the park.

by beshocked Mon 23 May 2016, 11:05 am

Londontiger yes but you couldn't keep hold of the ball and that's the main point surely. If a team plays higher risk inevitably more mistakes are going to be made. Sure more passes could have and probably should have stuck but playing looser makes you open to the counter.

Sarries have an excellent counter attacking game.

It's a trust in the gameplan that even though they'll concede ground, miss tackles, the mistakes will come from the opposition, opportunities will spring up. Like the poor kick, the handling error, the loose ball etc.

You could argue it's more negative than positive but it's effective because it's soaking up pressure than dishing it out harder back.

Sam

A strategy is only as good as the execution surely? It's well and good saying - let's play a high tempo attacking game to try and run Sarries off the park but if the handling and decision making isn't at a high level it's not going to work.

Breaking the line is only the first part, it's the finishing which can be hard for any team. That clinical edge.

It was a same sort of story against Racing Metro but Sarries are a stronger side than Racing.

Brits is an excellent player, just as Thacker is but Jamie George has improved Sarries scrum and turned it into a weapon IMO.

He's good around the park too, not as much as Brits and Thacker admittedly but he's just bigger which helps at scrum time and his darts are generally pretty good.

I feel like Leicester need to go a bit more back to basics. I am not saying go back to exclusively relying on the set piece but use Exeter as a template.

by Fanster Mon 23 May 2016, 11:08 am

How did Owen Williams play?

He's been really hit and miss this season, I only caught parts of the game, but am guessing the Sarries pack were dominant.

Also, did Sarries get field and point advantage through capitolising on Leicester errors, since they have been trying to play deeper and wider than previously, or were Sarries actually looking to play a more expansive game?

Also did Tuilagi come off early with his knee?

by lostinwales Mon 23 May 2016, 11:12 am

Tuilagi did a hamstring which in all probability should end any thoughts of him playing during the summer.

by Fanster Mon 23 May 2016, 11:18 am

lostinwales wrote:Tuilagi did a hamstring which in all probability should end any thoughts of him playing during the summer.

Is that due to surface do you think? Or was he rushed back?

Such a shame, It must be infuriating from an England fans POV not to see him get a dozen games in a row and really show off what he can do!

by lostinwales Mon 23 May 2016, 11:25 am

Fanster wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Tuilagi did a hamstring which in all probability should end any thoughts of him playing during the summer.

Is that due to surface do you think? Or was he rushed back?

Such a shame, It must be infuriating from an England fans POV not to see him get a dozen games in a row and really show off what he can do!

Cockerill seems to be blaming the surface. And yes it is very frustrating. Tuilagi was still a long way from full fitness but also seemed to be showing glimpses of the player he used to be.

by beshocked Mon 23 May 2016, 11:27 am

Saracens weren't expansive but the execution was brutal. Pouncing on errors, beating tackles and executing offloads. Basically the ball stuck more often than not for Saracens whilst it didn't for Tigers.

Tigers did manage to punch quite a few holes in the Sarries defence and got 2 tries for their efforts, 1 ruled out in the first minute too but just a lack of accuracy in the overall 80.

I personally believe that Tigers' handling and decision making were their biggest downfalls.

Saracens were ruthless but the tries still had to be executed successfully. Players still had to be beaten and passes still had to go to hand.

I thought that Williams wasn't particularly tactically astute and it was his grubber that was gobbled up by Wyles gratefully.

You could argue Tigers were their own worst enemy and I guess they were but Sarries thrive on brutal counter attacking.

by formerly known as Sam Mon 23 May 2016, 3:01 pm

It's alright being physical and direct when you have the team for it. Sarries expected that from Tigers and named a big team capable of mixing it physically. There was absolutely zero point Tigers going into that game and playing direct against Sarries, more powerful teams than us have done that and failed. We attacked across the field, used kicks to turn the blitz defence and offloaded to get in behind. Tactically it's what we needed to do. However, the coaches won't have expected TV to drop about three catches that would have given try scoring chances, Ben Youngs to throw an awful interception or Williams to slice a grubber straight to Wyles.

It's ok saying we should have played a bigger hooker and that George adds a lot to Sarries but we don't have a Jamie George waiting to come on. After Thacker it's Bateman who can't throw or Leo who has found no form since his return from injury. Thacker was the best available option and played pretty well.

Re. Manu it looked to be the hamstring on the leg without the support that had gone. Big loss for us as Tait was poor in at 12.

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