What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

First topic message reminder :

Well, the title says it all really. What a pathetic, embarrassing finish to the PRO12 it was for the Welsh regions. I am livid, as a Welsh rugby fan I am bouncing, and it just goes to show how right I am when I talk about the attitudes towards the game that the regions take. What does it matter to the regions that they got beaten on the weekend ? Nothing, that's what, they do not have to worry.

Ospreys knew what they needed to do and the were shamed in their own back yard. If I were a paying customer on Saturday I would have been demanding my money back. Scarlets were the same, they just gave up in the second half, and the less said about Dragons the better. Where was the pride ? 

I live in hope that next season will be better, Welsh domestic rugby is in a dark place at the moment, how any fans of the regions can come on here and defend their teams showing over this season is beyond me. No doubt I will get attacked from every quarter on here by the likes of Risca, Stone motif, mikey dragon, PhillBB, Scarletspiderman, but how can they argue ? It's no wonder that the amount of fans going to watch our regions are not as good as elsewhere, it's because of the crap being served up infront of them week in week out, who would want to keep paying for it ?

But what does it matter, the regions will still get the same funding next year, they will still get the same money from Europe, nothing will change for them, so why should they change ?

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Can they choose and negotiate the competition they play in?
Can they negotiate their own tv rights?
Can they ignore the terms of the RSA?

The regions agreed to all these terms in the RSA before they were rolled out didn't they ?

The regions can decide which competitions they play in, were they not threatening to join the English not so long ago ?

How the FF could the regions negotiate their own TV deal ? Who would want to pay for sole rights to air the dross the regions serve up ?

What do you mean 'before they were rolled out'?

No, PRW cannot decide which competitions they play in. The WRU must approve or the game goes to court. The HoT with PRL would have gone that way.

BBC Wales already pay £3.2m a year for each home game. In effect, they are sole rights for games on Welsh soil. So there is another 3,200,000 reasons to make you look stupid.

PhilBB wrote:If you cannot understand that rugby is a team game then there's little hope.

Phil, I understand quite ok thanks. 

But if you cannot understand that individual errors and lack of effort are not down to the team there is little hope.

The only thing you have any credence with this excuse is that the inept coaches tell the team in what way to play. But even then it does not excuse individual performances.

LordDowlais wrote:
But if you cannot understand that individual errors and lack of effort are not down to the team there is little hope.

The only thing you have any credence with this excuse is that the inept coaches tell the team in what way to play. But even then it does not excuse individual performances.

Where is this 'lack of effort' manifesting itself? Give me some examples.

Who are the 'inept coaches'? Please give names.

PhilBB wrote:What do you mean 'before they were rolled out'?

That all sat together, agreed on them, then went on their merry way.

PhilBB wrote:No, PRW cannot decide which competitions they play in. The WRU must approve or the game goes to court. The HoT with PRL would have gone that way.

Well then there you go, court case or not, they can still decide.

PhilBB wrote:BBC Wales already pay £3.2m a year for each home game. In effect, they are sole rights for games on Welsh soil. So there is another 3,200,000 reasons to make you look stupid.

And who negotiated this deal ? Yes that's right Roger Lewis, the man you blame for everything that is wrong with the regions, so that is another 3,200,000 reasons to make you look stupid.

LordDowlais wrote:Keep rolling out the excuses Phil. At least you will get support from your regional chums on here.


By your reckoning, players like Rob Evans, Jake Ball, Samson Lee get smashed about in the Pro12 because they have Steven Shingler in their team.

FFS.

They have done. Have you not been following them this season, or did you choose not to lend them your token support this year? Also, they are the only top 6 team to not score 4 tries against Italian opposition on 4 occasions this season.

*Awaits the usual riposte.*

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:What do you mean 'before they were rolled out'?

That all sat together, agreed on them, then went on their merry way.

PhilBB wrote:No, PRW cannot decide which competitions they play in. The WRU must approve or the game goes to court. The HoT with PRL would have gone that way.

Well then there you go, court case or not, they can still decide.

PhilBB wrote:BBC Wales already pay £3.2m a year for each home game. In effect, they are sole rights for games on Welsh soil. So there is another 3,200,000 reasons to make you look stupid.

And who negotiated this deal ? Yes that's right Roger Lewis, the man you blame for everything that is wrong with the regions, so that is another 3,200,000 reasons to make you look stupid.

No, Lewis didn't negotiate that deal. It was done by PrO'12. He negotiated the previous deal. So that makes your reply funnier.

But it's good to know that your idea for PRW to improve themselves is to break away from the WRU.

PhilBB wrote:Where is this 'lack of effort' manifesting itself? Give me some examples. 

The players who play out of their skins for their country, but seem to be a shadow of the players come Pro12 time.

PhilBB wrote:Who are the 'inept coaches'? Please give names.

The one's who cannot get the same level of performances out of the players at the regions that the Welsh national coaches do.

PhilBB wrote:No, Lewis didn't negotiate that deal. It was done by PrO'12. He negotiated the previous deal. So that makes your reply funnier. 

So he had nothing to do with it what so ever ?

PhilBB wrote:

In fact, it's illogical to the point of being unnatural.

And, of course, you're a coward for not answering the three questions asked of you above.

Illogical, that sums up Andy Dowellais' debates.

mikey_dragon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Keep rolling out the excuses Phil. At least you will get support from your regional chums on here.


By your reckoning, players like Rob Evans, Jake Ball, Samson Lee get smashed about in the Pro12 because they have Steven Shingler in their team.

FFS.

They have done. Have you not been following them this season, or did you choose not to lend them your token support this year? Also, they are the only top 6 team to not score 4 tries against Italian opposition on 4 occasions this season.

*Awaits the usual riposte.*

OK mikey, I will play. If the better players(WI) are being dragged down by the standards of the mediocre players around them, then why isn't it a two way street ? Why don't the better players drag up the levels of the mediocre players ?

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Where is this 'lack of effort' manifesting itself? Give me some examples. 

The players who play out of their skins for their country, but seem to be a shadow of the players come Pro12 time.

PhilBB wrote:Who are the 'inept coaches'? Please give names.

The one's who cannot get the same level of performances out of the players at the regions that the Welsh national coaches do.

OK, please name the players who play out of their skins for Wales but don't put the effort in at PrO'12 time.

Please name the coaches who fail to get the same level of performance from these individuals.

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:No, Lewis didn't negotiate that deal. It was done by PrO'12. He negotiated the previous deal. So that makes your reply funnier. 

So he had nothing to do with it what so ever ?

Well, he's mates with Talfarn Davies so he may have given him a nod on it.

LordDowlais wrote:
OK mikey, I will play. If the better players(WI) are being dragged down by the standards of the mediocre players around them, then why isn't it a two way street ? Why don't the better players drag up the levels of the mediocre players ?

How do you know they aren't dragging up the levels of the mediocre players?

Dowlais, it's possible that the regions / pro teams are poorly run. I don't look into that financial / business side of things so I don't know, but I suppose it's possible. But it's absurd to ignore everything else that they have to deal with, how hamstrung they are, and that they're at a financial disadvantage to every other team they face. Those are facts. The regions not running themselves well (if that is the case) doesn't cancel out those facts.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Dowlais, it's possible that the regions / pro teams are poorly run. I don't look into that financial / business side of things so I don't know, but I suppose it's possible. But it's absurd to ignore everything else that they have to deal with, how hamstrung they are, and that they're at a financial disadvantage to everyone other team they face. Those are facts. The regions not running themselves well (if that is the case) doesn't cancel out those facts.

Amen.

He's keen on the subjective, ignorant of the objective.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:No, Lewis didn't negotiate that deal. It was done by PrO'12. He negotiated the previous deal. So that makes your reply funnier. 

So he had nothing to do with it what so ever ?

Well, he's mates with Talfarn Davies so he may have given him a nod on it.  

More to the fact that he made the previous deal which set the going rate on the next one. For all the crap he has done in Welsh rugby, the tele deal was the one thing he did well.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
OK mikey, I will play. If the better players(WI) are being dragged down by the standards of the mediocre players around them, then why isn't it a two way street ? Why don't the better players drag up the levels of the mediocre players ?

How do you know they aren't dragging up the levels of the mediocre players?

Because they are all as crap as each other when they are playing in the Pro12 thats why.

LordDowlais wrote:
More to the fact that he made the previous deal which set the going rate on the next one. For all the crap he has done in Welsh rugby, the tele deal was the one thing he did well.

Really? How do you know that more isn't achievable from BT Sport, for example?

LordDowlais wrote:
Because they are all as crap as each other when they are playing in the Pro12 thats why.

So, you don't think that Dillon Lewis improves by playing alongside Gethin Jenkins?

Or that Ellis Jenkins improves by playing alongside Sam Warburton?

Please be clear on this.

PhilBB wrote:Really? How do you know that more isn't achievable from BT Sport, for example?

Have BT Sport made a bid ?

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Really? How do you know that more isn't achievable from BT Sport, for example?

Have BT Sport made a bid ?

I don't know if they were able to.

Look at their combined sponsorship of PRW. How do you know that Lewis' deal was good under those circumstances?

You can't. You don't. But you lack the grace to admit that.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
Because they are all as crap as each other when they are playing in the Pro12 thats why.

So, you don't think that Dillon Lewis improves by playing alongside Gethin Jenkins?

Or that Ellis Jenkins improves by playing alongside Sam Warburton?

Please be clear on this.

So why are Cardiff Blues not qualifying for the CC every year then ? You reckon these players are playing so well.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Really? How do you know that more isn't achievable from BT Sport, for example?

Have BT Sport made a bid ?

I don't know if they were able to.

Look at their combined sponsorship of PRW. How do you know that Lewis' deal was good under those circumstances?

You can't. You don't. But you lack the grace to admit that.

Well if you do not know, then how can you use it as tool to argue with ?

LordDowlais wrote:
So why are Cardiff Blues not qualifying for the CC every year then ? You reckon these players are playing so well.

That's a disingenuous and false logic leap.

You claimed that poor players are not improved by playing alongside internationals. I asked you to clarify that with some examples.

I've asked you to name international players not putting in the effort in PrO'12 games and to name the coaches who are 'inept'.

You've run from each question.

LordDowlais wrote:
Well if you do not know, then how can you use it as tool to argue with ?

You made the argument that it was a good deal. I asked you the basis of that claim. You have not provided one.

It was your argument, not mine.

PhilBB wrote:You've run from each question.

No I nave not, stop lying. I have answered above. I have not named names as it would start another p1ssing match off, but I have made my answers quite clear.

Phil, you are backtracking now, I am done with this with you. I am off to do some work. Ta-ra.

.

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:You've run from each question.

No I nave not, stop lying. I have answered above. I have not named names as it would start another p1ssing match off, but I have made my answers quite clear.

You haven't answered the questions by your own admission. You haven't answered because you cannot answer.

LordDowlais wrote:

Phil, you are backtracking now, I am done with this with you. I am off to do some work. Ta-ra.

In your failed Carpet business as it doesn't earn as much revenue as Carpet Right.

Right? That's your logic, yes?

LordDowlais wrote:

Phil, you are backtracking now, I am done with this with you. I am off to do some work. Ta-ra.

And, of course, no backtracking from me.

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Keep rolling out the excuses Phil. At least you will get support from your regional chums on here.


By your reckoning, players like Rob Evans, Jake Ball, Samson Lee get smashed about in the Pro12 because they have Steven Shingler in their team.

FFS.

They have done. Have you not been following them this season, or did you choose not to lend them your token support this year? Also, they are the only top 6 team to not score 4 tries against Italian opposition on 4 occasions this season.

*Awaits the usual riposte.*

OK mikey, I will play. If the better players(WI) are being dragged down by the standards of the mediocre players around them, then why isn't it a two way street ? Why don't the better players drag up the levels of the mediocre players ?

It seems like you're expanding onto something else here now, I take it that's because you were not aware of the Scarlets results this year and went to look them up. They're not being dragged down so much, it's just you need a good team, not an average team with some great individual players here and there. There's also the fact some players have limited capabilities. Whilst the likes of Owen Watkin and Tyler Morgan can step up and improve by playing among international players because they have great potential, the likes of Steve Shingler and Gavin Evans can't because they've never had the potential to be anything but average - that's also evident by the fact they have not improved as players.

PhilBB wrote:

exile jack wrote:
But how many of those English and French clubs are really solvent as opposed to reliance on accounting ingenuity? I suppose that until Pro12 teams start to win the RCC1 and RCC2 tournaments the financial attraction of the Pro12 to TV will remain understated.The 2016/17 Pro12 season needs to set a much higher performance bar.I'm hoping that's the case anyway.

All French clubs have to be solvent as they are audited each year by the DNACG, who then publish their reports.

The French domestic TV deal dwarfs the French EPRC deal.

It is TV that drives up the standard of play by allowing more income to pay salaries. You've got your cart before the horse in that post.

What I take from reading the DNACG reports and the numerous newspaper reports on the financing of French rugby is different to you.Presumably,we have a difference of understanding on the issue of debt to equity financing as part of corporate financial strategy.I'd rather not be a candidate for membership of the three wise monkeys.The French TV money is contributing to distortion of the market by making rugby imports more attractive to French clubs at the expense of French born players,both established and developmental.That is the view of the FFR and several prominent French internationals,and why they are trying to establish tighter rules about quotas for match day squads.As the French TV money increase makes a player decision to play in France more attractive,the only counter in Wales is Gatland's Law,and in England the 'Exceptional Circumstances' clause.Perversely,the significant growth in French club rugby financing could lead to more French born players coming to the Aviva and Pro12 as playing opportunities get taken by imports.That said,debt however creatively originated must if not written off be repaid eventually.I look forward to the day when the RFU and FFR are asked to fund that debt repayment.I don't see it myself.

Lord: "I think aliens exist"
PhilBB: "I think if you look in the mirror you'll get your proof.  No, seriously - how do you know?"
Lord: "I don't know.  I think."
PhilBB "How do you know that?"
Lord: "How do I know what?"
PhilBB: "That to think aliens exist?"
Lord: "How do I know that I think aliens exist????!!"
PhilBB: "Yeah"
Lord: "Are you for real, Phil?"
PhilBB: "Yeah"
Lord: "How do you know?  
PhilBB: "I look in the Mirror"
Lord: "what do you see?"
PhilBB: "Me."
Lord: "That isn't you.  That's your reflection.  A person's reflection isn't that person."
PhilBB: "How do you know?"
Lord: "How do I know what?"
PhiBB: "That my reflection isn't really me?"
Lord: "Is it?"
PhilBB: "No"
Lord: "Well there you go then!  I was right."
PhilBB: "You weren't right.  You didn't have proof.  I do."
Lord: "It's the same conclusion."
PhilBB: "Proof and speculation are two different things, how could they ever come to the same conclusions?"
Lord: "They just DID!"
PhilBB: "In your imagination.  That's not proof."

It's great stuff.  You could keep going with this for a month or so and it would still be unfinished business.

like Mulder and Scully.

It's been a poor season all round from the regions. The Ospreys have been by far the worst, going from a team fighting for a top 3 place, to near the bottom.
The Dragons are always dire, The Blues haven't really progressed, The Scarlets are the best team in Wales this season.

SecretFly wrote:Lord: "I think aliens exist"
PhilBB: "I think if you look in the mirror you'll get your proof.  No, seriously - how do you know?"
Lord: "I don't know.  I think."
PhilBB "How do you know that?"
Lord: "How do I know what?"
PhilBB: "That to think aliens exist?"
Lord: "How do I know that I think aliens exist????!!"
PhilBB: "Yeah"
Lord: "Are you for real, Phil?"
PhilBB: "Yeah"
Lord: "How do you know?  
PhilBB: "I look in the Mirror"
Lord: "what do you see?"
PhilBB: "Me."
Lord: "That isn't you.  That's your reflection.  A person's reflection isn't that person."
PhilBB: "How do you know?"
Lord: "How do I know what?"
PhiBB: "That my reflection isn't really me?"
Lord: "Is it?"
PhilBB: "No"
Lord: "Well there you go then!  I was right."
PhilBB: "You weren't right.  You didn't have proof.  I do."
Lord: "It's the same conclusion."
PhilBB: "Proof and speculation are two different things, how could they ever come to the same conclusions?"
Lord: "They just DID!"
PhilBB: "In your imagination.  That's not proof."

It's great stuff.  You could keep going with this for a month or so and it would still be unfinished business.

Just back from Lyons.Great weekend but a shame about the rugby.Had to admire the power and efficiency of Montpellier and Saracens but entertainment? I think not.Eighty minutes of bish,bash,bosh,biff followed by another eighty minutes of biff,bosh,bash,bish.I hope and pray that the Pro12 doesn't go down this path.Pretty remarkable that the Montpellier team had just three Frenchmen in the starting XV and just 5 out of 23 in the squad.Racing were better with 7 Frenchmen in the starting XV and 11 out of 23 in the squad.Most remarkable was the observation of a Racing fan who said that Top14 rugby players could now expect an 11 month rugby season if their teams reached the playoffs and 10 months plus even if they didn't.A Montpellier fan told me that there is a general feeling in France that the big money club owners in France see international rugby as an increasing inconvenience to their club rugby business.All not yet lost for the Pro12 product.Here's to a more successful 2016/17 season and better entertainment than that on show in Lyons.

Shifty wrote:It's been a poor season all round from the regions.  The Ospreys have been by far the worst, going from a team fighting for a top 3 place, to near the bottom.  
The Dragons are always dire, The Blues haven't really progressed, The Scarlets are the best team in Wales this season.

Ay up Dr Gwyn is in the house

exile jack wrote:
What I take from reading the DNACG reports and the numerous newspaper reports on the financing of French rugby is different to you.Presumably,we have a difference of understanding on the issue of debt to equity financing as part of corporate financial strategy.I'd rather not be a candidate for membership of the three wise monkeys.The French TV money is contributing to distortion of the market by making rugby imports more attractive to French clubs at the expense of French born players,both established and developmental.That is the view of the FFR and several prominent French internationals,and why they are trying to establish tighter rules about quotas for match day squads.As the French TV money increase makes a player decision to play in France more attractive,the only counter in Wales is Gatland's Law,and in England the 'Exceptional Circumstances' clause.Perversely,the significant growth in French club rugby financing could lead to more French born players coming to the Aviva and Pro12 as playing opportunities get taken by imports.That said,debt however creatively originated must if not written off be repaid eventually.I look forward to the day when the RFU and FFR are asked to fund that debt repayment.I don't see it myself.

You've lost me. What debt are you mentioning that the 'RFU and FFR' fund?

As for the rest, the FFR are at least trying to make it financially viable to sign French internationals whereas, in Wales, it is not financially viable to sign Welsh internationals.

A properly structured global season will cure these ills.

Shifty wrote:It's been a poor season all round from the regions.  The Ospreys have been by far the worst, going from a team fighting for a top 3 place, to near the bottom.  
The Dragons are always dire, The Blues haven't really progressed, The Scarlets are the best team in Wales this season.

This is so wrong on so many levels.

Firstly - look at the number of points won by the Os outside of the international windows. I'm told that its more than Connacht won. That should tell you a story about how Team Wales negatively affects the Os.

And to claim that Cardiff 'haven't really progressed' is astonishing. For starters, they doubled 'the best team in Wales this season' outside of the international windows.

PhilBB wrote:

exile jack wrote:
What I take from reading the DNACG reports and the numerous newspaper reports on the financing of French rugby is different to you.Presumably,we have a difference of understanding on the issue of debt to equity financing as part of corporate financial strategy.I'd rather not be a candidate for membership of the three wise monkeys.The French TV money is contributing to distortion of the market by making rugby imports more attractive to French clubs at the expense of French born players,both established and developmental.That is the view of the FFR and several prominent French internationals,and why they are trying to establish tighter rules about quotas for match day squads.As the French TV money increase makes a player decision to play in France more attractive,the only counter in Wales is Gatland's Law,and in England the 'Exceptional Circumstances' clause.Perversely,the significant growth in French club rugby financing could lead to more French born players coming to the Aviva and Pro12 as playing opportunities get taken by imports.That said,debt however creatively originated must if not written off be repaid eventually.I look forward to the day when the RFU and FFR are asked to fund that debt repayment.I don't see it myself.

You've lost me. What debt are you mentioning that the 'RFU and FFR' fund?

As for the rest, the FFR are at least trying to make it financially viable to sign French internationals whereas, in Wales, it is not financially viable to sign Welsh internationals.

A properly structured global season will cure these ills.

If the clubs in the Top14,ProD2 and Aviva are all and will remain financially solvent then the RFU and the FFR will not have to consider paying off any debt and equity financing at club level if corporate debt refinancing is unable to maintain solvency at club level.

Where we differ is on our understanding of the sustainabilty of the current financing of many of the leading French and English clubs and the creativity,however legal,of the accounting that underpins it.

What is becoming clearer in France is that the money necessary to achieve and sustain success is significant and creating a divide between those that can generate that money and those that cannot.Toulon earlier this year were able to field TWO full XV's of non-French internationals.The Montpellier XV on Friday had 6 South Africans,4 of whom were Springboks and 3 of whom were World Cup winners.That level of resource is expensive because it is not abundant and is expensive.But unless you find it as a French club you are unlikely to enjoy success in the Top14 and indeed can increasingly look to season upon season of bottom half of the table and potential relegation.

I don't see any revised global season addressing these issues.We can't even sort out the NH season.

exile jack wrote:
If the clubs in the Top14,ProD2 and Aviva are all and will remain financially solvent then the RFU and the FFR will not have to consider paying off any debt and equity financing at club level if corporate debt refinancing is unable to maintain solvency at club level.

Where we differ is on our understanding of the sustainabilty of the current financing of many of the leading French and English clubs and the creativity,however legal,of the accounting that underpins it.

What is becoming clearer in France is that the money necessary to achieve and sustain success is significant and creating a divide between those that can generate that money and those that cannot.Toulon earlier this year were able to field TWO full XV's of non-French internationals.The Montpellier XV on Friday had 6 South Africans,4 of whom were Springboks and 3 of whom were World Cup winners.That level of resource is expensive because it is not abundant and is expensive.But unless you find it as a French club you are unlikely to enjoy success in the Top14 and indeed can increasingly look to season upon season of bottom half of the table and potential relegation.

I don't see any revised global season addressing these issues.We can't even sort out the NH season.

Since when has a Union ever paid off the debts of a privately owned club? I can only think of this happening at Neath. So why are you even mentioning it?

You also seem to be confusing non-French players as being more expensive than French players. Have you seen the JIFF table for this season? It casts serious doubt on your claim on Toulon, for starters.

You then move on to some point about the less rich French clubs not being able to win the Brennnus. What on earth is the relevance of that? The haves win, the haves not don't. That's pro sport.

PhilBB wrote:

Shifty wrote:It's been a poor season all round from the regions.  The Ospreys have been by far the worst, going from a team fighting for a top 3 place, to near the bottom.  
The Dragons are always dire, The Blues haven't really progressed, The Scarlets are the best team in Wales this season.

This is so wrong on so many levels.

Firstly - look at the number of points won by the Os outside of the international windows. I'm told that its more than Connacht won. That should tell you a story about how Team Wales negatively affects the Os.

And to claim that Cardiff 'haven't really progressed' is astonishing. For starters, they doubled 'the best team in Wales this season' outside of the international windows.

This 'outside the International window' excuse is becoming long in the tooth. After all, "That should tell you a story about how Team Wales negatively affects the Os." is a very similar predicament in theme to the idea that Irish Provinces held back their best players for Europe... and not just for one or two extra Internationals a year either.
Did not having their best players available for long stints limit or constraint their intentions to fight hard in Pro12? Why should it impede Ospreys?

SecretFly wrote:This 'outside the International window' excuse is becoming long in the tooth.

Thats PhilBB for you.

SecretFly wrote:
This 'outside the International window' excuse is becoming long in the tooth.  After all, "That should tell you a story about how Team Wales negatively affects the Os." is a very similar predicament in theme to the idea that Irish Provinces held back their best players for Europe... and not just for one or two extra Internationals a year either.  
Did not having their best players available for long stints limit or constraint their intentions to fight hard in Pro12?  Why should it impede Ospreys?

How can it be 'long in the tooth' in World Cup year?

You seem to be asking questions of why not being able to play the best players can negatively affect results which, in itself, is a daft question.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:This 'outside the International window' excuse is becoming long in the tooth.

Thats PhilBB for you.

Fancy having a reason for the Ospreys not performing as well in World Cup year as they normally do.

Reason, not excuse. You really need to learn the difference.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
This 'outside the International window' excuse is becoming long in the tooth.  After all, "That should tell you a story about how Team Wales negatively affects the Os." is a very similar predicament in theme to the idea that Irish Provinces held back their best players for Europe... and not just for one or two extra Internationals a year either.  
Did not having their best players available for long stints limit or constraint their intentions to fight hard in Pro12?  Why should it impede Ospreys?

How can it be 'long in the tooth' in World Cup year?

You seem to be asking questions of why not being able to play the best players can negatively affect results which, in itself, is a daft question.

The excuse extends beyond World Cup years and you know it.   There have often been encyclopaedias written on these pages about the massive disruption to the Regional season by merely one extra International game.... outside that window.
Again I say to you, Provinces were chided here year after year for wilfully not putting out their best players in Pro12 - wilfully doing so, not being constrained by the circumstances of the International game.  Did it impede their continued competitiveness in Pro12?

SecretFly wrote:

The excuse extends beyond World Cup years and you know it.   There have often been encyclopaedias written on these pages about the massive disruption to the Regional season by merely one extra International game.... outside that window.
Again I say to you, Provinces were chided here year after year for wilfully not putting out their best players in Pro12 - wilfully doing so, not being constrained by the circumstances of the International game.  Did it impede their continued competitiveness in Pro12?

I answered this: "The Ospreys have been by far the worst, going from a team fighting for a top 3 place, to near the bottom." and gave the reasoning why.

As the Os have won the PrO'12 as much as any other team, I'm not sure of your point here.

You may be making the case that the IRFU pumped in enough cash to ensure the better players didn't leave Ireland, meaning that there was sufficient strength in depth in the Irish game, whilst that hasn't been the case in Wales. Therefore, the loss of the internationals is felt more in Wales because of that relative lack of strength in depth. In which, you're bang on.

But that's another reason, not excuse.

No, PhilBB, I'd argue against that again.  Strength in depth is only proven by how a side attacks a competition or competitions.  No Irish Province could have predicted their 'strength in depth' in advance, when Internationals were rested.  They simply put them out there and made those players feel they were trusted, and those players were expected to do a rigid job and to as it were 'hold the fort' until the big guys returned.

Actually in my time looking at Pro12 in its many guises, I've noticed periods when Welsh sides actually did excel likewise when their alleged big players were away.  There was a hunger with the 2nd string to go prove themselves and I can remember periods when a few of the Regions did use their rookies to the max and Internationals returned wondering about their spots.

And again, in reality, Wales without a shadow of a doubt has a more potent and probably innately skilled playing base, with lots of tradition and history, beneath the level of Regions that Irish Rugby can only dream of.  And I've always willingly gave that honour to Welsh rugby - I think their players from the off have a more natural instinct and reflexes for the game - probably in part helped by that passage of coaching that comes through from the golden ages of Welsh rugby to the present.
So again, I question this notion of strength in depth and question where it should reside - my opinion would be that tradition is with Wales in that regard.

I do think though that the RELIANCE on key big name players is the philosophy that lets down the Regions.  Again, this is proven in the comments here over the years.  Welsh fans want to see big name stars in their sides and in the Pro12 in general.  We on the other hand tended to enjoy the periods when the big players were away, it was a chance for us to see what the rookies could do and where the promise of the future was.