Ulster 2016/2017

First topic message reminder :

The build up to Ulsters gloriously successful 2016/2017 campaign starts here!

Allow summer optimism to get the better of you or discuss why we are in crisis right here on this thread- before weary resignation over the quality of forwards we have sinks in once again.

I don't know. There's something very wrong with the forward production line in the Academy. Promising players either don't get the opportunity or go to seed. Ferris was hailing Wilsons experience at half-time against Connacht. Yet surely experience only goes so far when you're body isn't able to do what you need it to do. I mean, I feel bad slagging him because for years Wilson was a brilliant player. Remarkably consistent, tough, streetwise. You ask Saints fans and they don't have a bad word to say about him.

He's just a year past the point where he should have retired.

No doubt Roger wasa very good player but the key word in that sentence is 'was' he really doesn't have it anymore. Experiance is useful but ultimately if you are so far below the level you should be it counts for nothing. It is disturbing how guys like Dow can dissapear to seemingly no-where and guys like Bealham (probably spelt that wrong) can be let go for not being good enough only to be proven more than good enough

neilthom7 wrote:No doubt Roger wasa very good player but the key word in that sentence is 'was' he really doesn't have it anymore.  Experiance is useful but ultimately if you are so far below the level you should be it counts for nothing.  It is disturbing how guys like Dow can dissapear to seemingly no-where and guys like Bealham (probably spelt that wrong) can be let go for not being good enough only to be proven more than good enough

We have a horrible record of keeping poor academy prospects and letting go quality ones. TJ Anderson and Ali Birch being examples of ones that we've kept whilst losing the likes of Sean Dougall at their expense. Ali Birch ended up with Rotheram Titans, Sean Dougall with Munster (including starting Champions Cup knockouts games for them) and now Pau in the Top 14.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:No doubt Roger wasa very good player but the key word in that sentence is 'was' he really doesn't have it anymore.  Experiance is useful but ultimately if you are so far below the level you should be it counts for nothing.  It is disturbing how guys like Dow can dissapear to seemingly no-where and guys like Bealham (probably spelt that wrong) can be let go for not being good enough only to be proven more than good enough

We have a horrible record of keeping poor academy prospects and letting go quality ones.  TJ Anderson and Ali Birch being examples of ones that we've kept whilst losing the likes of Sean Dougall at their expense.  Ali Birch ended up with Rotheram Titans, Sean Dougall with Munster (including starting Champions Cup knockouts games for them) and now Pau in the Top 14.

Alex Codling was a terrible loss. A forwards coach working in the Academy who has the first clue when it comes to judging potential would be top class because whoever is making these calls has a poor track record. It didn't take much to see that Best, Henderson or Ferris were going to make the grade but when it comes to seeing who will be good but not great we just can't pick them out.

When it comes to TJ Anderson, does who his Dad is have anything to do with the opportunities he got? He always struck me as a guy who would be a really brilliant player for a lower level side just not good enough at anything to shine as a professional. Same with Birch actually.

Whats really crazy is the Exiles program has sent players like Sean Dougall and Finlay Bealham over to us, and they obviously have been recommended to the provinces by people specifically chosen to work for the Exiles because they are keen judges of talent, and then someone at Ulster is like 'Nope, not interested.'

I mean what is with that, honestly!

Definitely a whiff of the old boys brigade coming into a lot of things Notch. Not just players like TJ Anderson, but coaches like Allen Clarke.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing - TJ Anderson didn't make it but that wasn't always obvious. When he played, he was at least the standard of say Clive Ross (last season), but unlike Ross was unable to deliver on his potential.

The trouble with the Academy is that no one wants to improve it!
Sure most fans SAY they want to improve it but when suggestions are put forward they are usually shunned out of hand. For example:
1. Integrate schools and clubs in Ulster (as the other provinces do). Kids aren't allowed by their schools to line out for their local club. This deprives them of experience and stops them playing the adult game.
2. Allow club u18 sides to enter the Schools Cup. This would widen the competition and improve the standard to make it more competitive.
3. Concentrate all the Academy/Ravens players into no more than two UBL sides. They need to be playing in Division 1A every season.
4. Rotate players to another provincial Academy for a season as part of their development to remove the chill factor in later life for the player and to get viewpoints on their development in different sides.

The current level and frequency of games can make player assessment more a matter of luck than judgement.

The Great Aukster wrote:Hindsight is a wonderful thing - TJ Anderson didn't make it but that wasn't always obvious. When he played, he was at least the standard of say Clive Ross (last season), but unlike Ross was unable to deliver on his potential.

The trouble with the Academy is that no one wants to improve it!
Sure most fans SAY they want to improve it but when suggestions are put forward they are usually shunned out of hand. For example:
1. Integrate schools and clubs in Ulster (as the other provinces do). Kids aren't allowed by their schools to line out for their local club. This deprives them of experience and stops them playing the adult game.
2. Allow club u18 sides to enter the Schools Cup. This would widen the competition and improve the standard to make it more competitive.
3. Concentrate all the Academy/Ravens players into no more than two UBL sides. They need to be playing in Division 1A every season.
4. Rotate players to another provincial Academy for a season as part of their development to remove the chill factor in later life for the player and to get viewpoints on their development in different sides.

The current level and frequency of games can make player assessment more a matter of luck than judgement.

Yep. Totally agree with all four points!

You're right about Ross as well, I never expected Clive Ross to play like he has been this year. Some players really are late bloomers. Which makes us turning away Sean Dougall and Finlay Bealham even more baffling. I suppose its not a case of rejecting them out of hand as much as it is about giving someone else the contract they might have got. But that, at the very least, shows we're often backing the wrong horses. Don't get me wrong; its by no means easy to call these things. But coaches and selectors at other clubs and provinces are definitely doing a better job.

Also, I made a thread for the Baa-Baas game thats happening at Ravenhill next month in the international section

https://www.606v2.com/t64221-barbarians-vs-fiji-11th-november

Think you're over-egging the "everyone's better at spotting talent than us" Notch.

Don Alfonso wrote:Think you're over-egging the "everyone's better at spotting talent than us" Notch.

Don't think so man. It's pretty unlike me to get dramatic about this sort of thing

According to Planet Rugby forum Gordon Hamilton is rumoured to have resigned from IRFU because of R uan Pienaar's treatment.
It may be Gordie doing some attention seeking for all we know but I also was told Ruan is holding back on signing with anyone in the hope of a U-turn by Nazifora and his cronies. Hope lives

If Hamilton has resigned it probably means any pressure on the IRFU has failed.

Pienaar hasn't actually signed for anyone yet, has he?

Munchkin wrote:If Hamilton has resigned it probably means any pressure on the IRFU has failed.

Pienaar hasn't actually signed for anyone yet, has he?

None have been announced but that could just be a technicality

Just read Laidlaw is leaving Gloucester could Humphs sign him again?

I would have thought to hear some news on any Pienaar move before now. The French aren't very good at keeping secrets.

Laidlaw is moving to another Club. My guess is a French club. He won't be re-signing for Gloucester, or moving back to Embra. He definitely won't be coming to Ulster.

I meant Pienaar going to Gloucester

marty2086 wrote:I meant Pienaar going to Gloucester

Could happen, I suppose. Humphs knows him better than most, and why not, if it's a good deal for Pienaar?

It may be a great move for him and Gloucester, hes a step up in class for me from Laidlaw and if hes not wanting to up root his family may give them the option of staying put and him travelling back and forth on his off days

They are almost an Ulster exiles team as it is anyway

They are a bit rubbish at the moment. Pienaar might throw Humphs a lifeline

Munchkin, Laidlaw has signed for Clermont. Replaces Parra I would think.

Pienaar being told to leave by IRFU was poor form and he should be allowed to stay. Think he would be able to go to a top French side or Saracens who are short a top level 9.

When Ive seen them they remind me of Ulster of old(I hope), good in spells but mentally fragile

One of their best players seems to be Paddy McAllister

Hazel Sapling wrote:Munchkin, Laidlaw has signed for Clermont. Replaces Parra I would think.

Pienaar being told to leave by IRFU was poor form and he should be allowed to stay. Think he would be able to go to a top French side or Saracens who are short a top level 9.

No self-respecting Ulsterman will EVER sign for Sarries!! I'm absolutely certain that your suggestion was in jest though

So Clermont it is, for Laidlaw. Wonder what the attraction is?  I hope Pienaar gets the best deal for him and his family. A couple of seasons in sunny France sounds ideal.

marty2086 wrote:When Ive seen them they remind me of Ulster of old(I hope), good in spells but mentally fragile

One of their best players seems to be Paddy McAllister

I know they have lost a few games that they were leading. They need to do better or Humphs could be out of a job.

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:When Ive seen them they remind me of Ulster of old(I hope), good in spells but mentally fragile

One of their best players seems to be Paddy McAllister

I know they have lost a few games that they were leading. They need to do better or Humphs could be out of a job.

There could be a great irony in Pienaar going there and helping them become successful especially as Humphs has his eye on Nuciforas job

It would be great if Humphs got the job, or anyone with a bit of wit. Nucifora is a blight.

Humphs dumped Ulster in a pickle and yawned whilst doing so, and didn't exactly re-imagine rugby in England. Let him stay there O'Gara is going to take Nucifora's job when it becomes available - the Return of the Sulk.

Munchkin wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:Munchkin, Laidlaw has signed for Clermont. Replaces Parra I would think.

Pienaar being told to leave by IRFU was poor form and he should be allowed to stay. Think he would be able to go to a top French side or Saracens who are short a top level 9.

No self-respecting Ulsterman will EVER sign for Sarries!! I'm absolutely certain that your suggestion was in jest though

So Clermont it is, for Laidlaw. Wonder what the attraction is?  I hope Pienaar gets the best deal for him and his family. A couple of seasons in sunny France sounds ideal.

He is South African....

No idea that there was such issues between the two clubs. I think it is more likely he makes his way to France or Japan if he leaves Ireland. I hear Racing have an expert medical team but I would think somewhere further south would suit him better. Lyon, Brive, Pau or Castres all make some sense (I ruled out Montpellier after the problem of having too many South Africans has done to Jake White).

He's a South African Ulsterman ..... and we really, really, don't like Sarries

Considering the T14 is all bish bosh, you would think the more South Africans the better, for Montpellier. It was Montpellier that Pienaar was rumoured to be going, but the Jake White fallout might have put that to bed.

I don't mind where he goes. As long as it's best for him, and it's not Sarries or Bath or Toulon. I'm not picky

Olding, Marshall, Piutau, Franco vd Merwe and Trimble all full training today.

BOOM

Great news, especially after losing Cave and Ludik last week. Was hoping that Payne is at fullback for the game, but then who covers centre?

Munchkin wrote:Great news, especially after losing Cave and Ludik last week. Just hoping that Payne is at fullback for the game.

Only way he isn't is if Piutau is at 15. And while I'd definitely prefer Payne at 15 and Piutau on the wing thats still not a bad option.

Hoping for

11. Piutau
12. Olding
13. Marshall
14. Trimble
15. Payne

With Bowe on the bench covering centre and wing. Unfortunate for Craig Gilroy, but thats how it goes.

Notch wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Great news, especially after losing Cave and Ludik last week. Just hoping that Payne is at fullback for the game.

Only way he isn't is if Piutau is at 15. And while I'd definitely prefer Payne at 15 and Piutau on the wing thats still not a bad option.

Hoping for

11. Piutau
12. Olding
13. Marshall
14. Trimble
15. Payne

With Bowe on the bench covering centre and wing. Unfortunate for Craig Gilroy, but thats how it goes.

Suppose Bowe covering centre answers my question about lack of cover.

Piutau at 15 with Payne at centre isn't bad at all. Not the best for attacking rugby, but good all the same.

Bordeaux have been going fairly well in the T14, but have a few injury worries now, especially in the backrow. Should be ours to win.... or lose.

It's not ideal to have to move guys from their best positions but Payne has played 13 for Ireland, Trimble has played 13 for Ireland. Bowe has played 13 in a test match for the Lions.

They may be at their best in the back three but they can all do a very good job in the centre if needs be.

We have a top class Irish 10 and an irish 15 (Payne) who may be at international level so seems like me we might need cover for those 2 positions during 6 nations, autumns and other times theya re unavailable. Someone with experiance and leadership skills to bring on the young guys around him. If only we knew someone like that, perhaps he could even be south african

Piutau is also good at centre. Think I would trust him there before the others, bar Payne. We should be ok, but hoping we don't lose either of Olding or Marshall early in the game.

neilthom7 wrote:We have a top class Irish 10 and an irish 15 (Payne) who may be at international level  so seems like me we might need cover for those 2 positions during 6 nations, autumns and other times theya re unavailable.  Someone with experiance and leadership skills to bring on the young guys around him.  If only we knew someone like that, perhaps he could even be south african

Can't wait until we announce our brand new marquee signing- Puan Rienaar!

In all seriousness I don't know why they don't allow us to keep Pienaar if he plays 10 when Jackson is away and mentors a younger scrum-half. Him playing 10 and talking his eventual successor through games would be an inspired call.

Yeah why not just have some sort of agreement where we keep Ruan but cannot start him at 9 unless all our other senior scrumhalves are injured. Instead he becomes the bakc up to Jacko who will miss plenty of games with Ireland and use him to mentor and coach up our irish qualified scrumhalves and back up outhalves for a year or 2. That way ulster fans are happy cos Ruan stays, IRFU is happy cos IQ scrumhalf starts and they get better through his input and Ruan is happy cos he gets to stay and can have some weeks off to preserve his body. Although that does seem like to much sense for Dave

Allegedly the team, from the Other Site:

Warwick
Best
Ah You
Fvdm
Browne
Hendo
Clive Ross
Reidy

Ruan
Jackson
Trimble
Marshall
Payne
Bowe
Gilroy

Piutau not making it after all. Backline looks pretty random if accurate.

It would appear the 'treating Marshall cautiously' thing has gone out the window after the recent centre injuries. They had said he was fine and fit, but there intention was to take a cautious approach with his return.
Needs must I suppose!

clivemcl wrote:It would appear the 'treating Marshall cautiously' thing has gone out the window after the recent centre injuries. They had said he was fine and fit, but there intention was to take a cautious approach with his return.
Needs must I suppose!

Marshall was due back this week or next week at the latest, don't think they would get away with rushing him back in the current climate

Talking out his hoop, actually - Bowe starting for As.

Ulster A team and replacements to play Jersey Reds, Friday 14th October, Shawsbridge (kick-off 7.00pm):

(15-9): Jonny McPhillips, Tommy Bowe, Sam Windsor, Mark Best, Aaron Cairns, Brett Herron, Dave Shanahan;
(1-8): Jonny Simpson, John Andrew, Ricky Lutton, Dan Tuohy (C), Kieran Treadwell, Stephen Mulholland, Conor Joyce, Lorcan Dow;
Replacements (16-22): Jonny Murphy, Tom O'Hagan, John Donnan, Nick Timoney, Angus Lloyd, Callum Smith, Conor Kelly.

Don Alfonso wrote:Talking out his hoop, actually - Bowe starting for As.

Ulster A team and replacements to play Jersey Reds, Friday 14th October, Shawsbridge (kick-off 7.00pm):

(15-9): Jonny McPhillips, Tommy Bowe, Sam Windsor, Mark Best, Aaron Cairns, Brett Herron, Dave Shanahan;
(1-8): Jonny Simpson, John Andrew, Ricky Lutton, Dan Tuohy (C), Kieran Treadwell, Stephen Mulholland, Conor Joyce, Lorcan Dow;
Replacements (16-22): Jonny Murphy, Tom O'Hagan, John Donnan, Nick Timoney, Angus Lloyd, Callum Smith, Conor Kelly.

With no Bowe we might see Trimble involved, along with Gilroy and Piutau. It's a shame Diack isn't playing for the A's.

Edit: The guy on the other forum says Pitua won't be involved, and he is usually on the money.

Unless they are giving Bowe 40 mins to see how he goes before naming the team for Sunday?

If not are Stockdale and Lyttle fit?

They have to name the team on Friday afternoon though, don't they?

Don't think Lyttle picked up a knock last week. Not sure about Stockdale.

The first team announcements for tomorrow are only starting to come through now and changes can still be made

I've seen players named on the bench for the senior side on Friday but in the starting team for the As the next day before. If they have to go on earlier than planned or take a knock they are just withdrawn from the As.

But I've never seen it go the other way around, and besides I think the team are flying over to France on Friday. So I'd still be quite surprised if Bowe or Tuohy are on the bench for the seniors.

Is Bowe injured again?

SecretFly wrote:Is Bowe injured again?

No, actually he's back fit. He played 80 minutes against Connacht and he said he felt good afterwards. He also created one of our three tries with one of his trademark running lines.

I think they just want him in the As so he can get more game time and get his match fitness back.

Seen the pictures on Facebook from this mornings training, think I know where t'other forum is getting their team info

marty2086 wrote:Seen the pictures on Facebook from this mornings training, think I know where t'other forum is getting their team info

Yeah I saw that as well. And I noticed Piutau wasn't in any of the pictures. Lets wait and see if 2 plus 2 equals 4 though.