Leicester Tigers 2016/17 thread.

by Welly Fri 10 Jun 2016, 12:47 pm

First topic message reminder :

2016/17:
Director of Rugby: Richard Cockerill
Head Coach: Aaron Mauger
Assistant Backs Coach: Geordan Murphy
Assistant Forward Coach: Richard Blaze
Defence and Scrum Half Coach: Scott Hansen
Head of Rugby Operations: Ged Glynn
Team manager: Matt Cornwall

2016/17 Senior Squad: (Confirmed So Far) (Blue = EQP)
Hookers: Bateman, McGuigan, Thacker, Youngs
Props: Ayerza, Balmain, Brugnara Cilliers, Cole, Genge, Mulipola, Rizzo
Locks: Barrow, Fitzgerald, Kitchener, Slater
Back Row: Croft, Fonua, Hamilton McCaffrey, O'Connor, Williams
Scrum Half: Harrison, Kitto, Youngs
Fly Half: Burns, Williams
Centre: Catchpole, Roberts, Smith, Toomua, Tuilagi
Back 3: Betham, Brady, Pieterson, Tait, Thompstone, Veainu
Squad number: 37, EQP: 24, Academy products: 8

Transfers
IN: (7)
McGuigan (Newcastle Falcons), Cilliers (Montpelier), Genge (Bristol), Hamilton (Agen), Toomua (ACT Brumbies). JP Pieterson (Sharks), Brady (Sale)

OUT: (12)
Ghiraldini (Toulouse), Pasquali (Treviso), De Chaves (London Irish), Crane (Bristol), Pearce (Sale), Bell (London Irish), Baikeinuku (retirement), De Villiers (Retirement), Benjamin (retirement), Morris (N/A), Camacho (N/A), Goneva (Newcastle Falcons)

Not Sure: (No official confirmation of leaving or Staying) 3
Aguero, Sio Loamanu,

Rumours:
Harry Wells (Bedford) Lock/6

2016/17 Development Squad: (15)
Bryant, Evans, Hills, Lewis, Mahoney, Maksymiw, J.Olowofela, R. Olowofela, Owen, Simmons, Thacker, Tuilagi, White, Worth, Yawayawa

Transfer
IN: (7)
Lewis, Mahoney, J.Olowofela, R. Olowofela, Simmons, White, Yawayawa

OUT: 11
Odogwu (sale), Beckett (Glous), Povoas (Coventry), Tresidder (Rotherham Titans), Douglas, Farnworth, Galletly, Hogan, Murrin, Nairn, Priestley-Nangle.

Academy
Academy Head Coach/forwards Coach: Brett Deacon
Academy Backs Coach: Anthony Allen

by eirebilly Mon 02 Jan 2017, 6:56 pm

I think you have an excellent point there Doc. Maybe Tuilagi is not being rehabilitated in the correct manner and is being rushed back too soon which can cause repeated injuries.

My point does remain though, would you want a player that spends more time recovering from injuries than actually playing the game.

I do hope it does not affect him too much and he recovers fully as I think he is an excellent player and I do enjoy watching him play, he is far more than a battering ram.

by Welly Mon 02 Jan 2017, 7:06 pm

eirebilly wrote:I think you have an excellent point there Doc. Maybe Tuilagi is not being rehabilitated in the correct manner and is being rushed back too soon which can cause repeated injuries.

My point does remain though, would you want a player that spends more time recovering from injuries than actually playing the game.

I do hope it does not affect him too much and he recovers fully as I think he is an excellent player and I do enjoy watching him play, he is far more than a battering ram.

Nah this one was a completely different injury and was a pretty freak accident by the looks of it. (I mean having 3 guys land on you in the tackle with one directly on your knee is always going to risk an injury.

annoyingly he was looking like the Manu of old aswell.

by doctor_grey Mon 02 Jan 2017, 7:59 pm

Welly wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I think you have an excellent point there Doc. Maybe Tuilagi is not being rehabilitated in the correct manner and is being rushed back too soon which can cause repeated injuries.

My point does remain though, would you want a player that spends more time recovering from injuries than actually playing the game.

I do hope it does not affect him too much and he recovers fully as I think he is an excellent player and I do enjoy watching him play, he is far more than a battering ram.

Nah this one was a completely different injury and was a pretty freak accident by the looks of it. (I mean having 3 guys land on you in the tackle with one directly on your knee is always going to risk an injury.

annoyingly he was looking like the Manu of old aswell.

It's all connected, mate. The shoulder, maybe not so much, but the groin/sports hernia (which is extremely painful and creates a lot of compensatory movement), and the hammy can weaken the other soft tissues which protect the joints, in this case the knee. Hopefully it is just a sprain, but we don't know yet. To be fair, we really won't know until (if!) the real diagnosis is released. But multiple injury histories are frequently related. And combined with a player with his frame and musculature who started playing top level at a young age, it all adds up. As an example, the NFL has smartly stopped allowing 18, 19, 20 year old players due to injury risk, either immediately or a few years down the road.

by formerly known as Sam Mon 02 Jan 2017, 8:49 pm

eirebilly wrote:I think you have an excellent point there Doc. Maybe Tuilagi is not being rehabilitated in the correct manner and is being rushed back too soon which can cause repeated injuries.

My point does remain though, would you want a player that spends more time recovering from injuries than actually playing the game.

I do hope it does not affect him too much and he recovers fully as I think he is an excellent player and I do enjoy watching him play, he is far more than a battering ram.

Rushed? They've given him an age to get fit. I know his gardener and Manu was chomping at the bit to start about a month before he came back. The club were the ones making him wait and ensure his groin was 100%. They successfully sorted Tait's long term groin injury.

by eirebilly Tue 03 Jan 2017, 5:26 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I think you have an excellent point there Doc. Maybe Tuilagi is not being rehabilitated in the correct manner and is being rushed back too soon which can cause repeated injuries.

My point does remain though, would you want a player that spends more time recovering from injuries than actually playing the game.

I do hope it does not affect him too much and he recovers fully as I think he is an excellent player and I do enjoy watching him play, he is far more than a battering ram.

Rushed? They've given him an age to get fit. I know his gardener and Manu was chomping at the bit to start about a month before he came back. The club were the ones making him wait and ensure his groin was 100%. They successfully sorted Tait's long term groin injury.

It was a question orientated point, not an accusation.

Is there any news on his injury?

by formerly known as Sam Tue 03 Jan 2017, 5:59 pm

Not as of yet. Presumably there's scans etc to undergo and they'll have to wait for the swelling to go down.

by Gooseberry Tue 03 Jan 2017, 9:18 pm

Rowntree is a coach ..not a DOR.

Wasnt Meyer reaposnible for signing Houghaard whos wages we were still partially paying whilst he was at Saracens? Meanwhile the player he replaced was still a premiership force last season.
Since then his great contribution to rugby has been making the Boks underpeform more than France.

Suddenly Cockerill is looking attractive ....

by formerly known as Sam Tue 03 Jan 2017, 10:20 pm

Meyer brought the Boks back from the disaster of Peter de Villiers. The ridiculous policy of the Bok rugby union kind of took away any chance of a RWC. Meyer brought through Kriel, Pollard and Etzebeth he can spot potential he turned Youngs into a Lions hooker instead of a Championship centre. I'd give him another go.

by eirebilly Wed 04 Jan 2017, 12:22 pm

So that's Tuilagi out for the rest of the season with cruciate ligament damage. Massive shame for him and the Tigers.

from the BBC :

"Tuilagi last started an England game in June 2014, before sustaining a groin injury in September of that year which kept him side-lined for 15 months.

He had previously missed two games of the 2012 Six Nations campaign with a hamstring problem, and all but one game of the 2014 tournament after tearing a pectoral muscle.

A further recurrence of his groin injury in Tigers' opening game of the current Premiership season on 2 September then forced him to miss almost three months of action, making his return in a win over Bristol on 25 November."

I reiterate that I feel he may be looked at by the Tigers management to see if he is worth the investment. Not nice for him and nothing he can do but in today's business, I would not be surprised to hear that he will be released in the future.

by Geordie Wed 04 Jan 2017, 12:29 pm

We'll take him!!

by eirebilly Wed 04 Jan 2017, 12:30 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:We'll take him!!

Have yiz got the money? Whistle

by Geordie Wed 04 Jan 2017, 12:37 pm

Ah now...we'll play the old he's a an injury prone past it player... Whistle

by Welly Wed 04 Jan 2017, 1:47 pm

Boris Stankovich scrum coach (part time)
Brett Deacon forwards and defence coach.

by bsando Wed 04 Jan 2017, 1:53 pm

That's a shame for Tuilagi, another player with lots of talent and sadly a long history of injuries. Must be so frustrating for him.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 04 Jan 2017, 2:38 pm

Manu is desperate to play for Tigers. Off the field he's a really nice bloke. I'd happily give him time to get back fit. I'm sure there's clauses in his contract to cover additional long term injuries and he's one of ours and we look after our own.

Stanko and Deacon are good options but haven't really got the coaching experience to be adding anything particularly new. Hopefully they'll do a good job cause they are Leicester boys (well adopted in Boris's case).

by Welly Wed 04 Jan 2017, 2:55 pm

Stanko has been a player coach the last 3 seasons so has a fair amount of experiance IMO, scrum coach is prob a position where experiance isn't important as long as you have knowledge about the workings of the scrum and know how to put it across to others.

by Gooseberry Wed 04 Jan 2017, 3:07 pm

He was very disolussioned after the "brush with the law" and feeling hung out to dry by England in paerticular there was a lot of talk of him going to France, I suspect the change in management and how much Eddie Jones has been up his bum since day one may have helped keep him here.

The injuries though are getting ridiculous. Considering he was a first team regular at 17, England regular at 18, Lions tourist, and this is now his 7th season he could easily have played well over 200 games, instead hes barely past the 100 mark for club and country. His discplinary record hasnt helped but the last 4 years have been one thing after another.

Even Tait used to turn up with less letters form his mum.

I dont think anyone can accuse Tigers of not looking after him, and his is a true Tigers family guy with loyalty extending both ways. But with Cockerill gone if the reigns pass to an "outsider" some of that traditiona and sentiment may go out the window in the summer. If you were a DOR with a limited and capped budget and hugely paid liability on the books what would you do? Sure hes still young- only coming into what should be his prime years, but there must be serious questions about how long he can sustain taking these significant injuries. The worrying thing is that its now a recurring injury rather than a simple freak of bad luck, that suggest a significant long term weakness and the potential for it to be career threatening.

I hope to god he can stay and come back and put in a an extended run of form again, but its looking increasingly unlikley. Then again Tigers have been well served in recent years by guys like Croft, whos injury record is even worse yet still managed to get back in an england shirt.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 04 Jan 2017, 4:00 pm

It's not a recurring injury this time. It's an impact injury on his knee damaging his ACL. Previously it was a muscular injury in his groin which is apparently fine.

by eirebilly Wed 04 Jan 2017, 4:05 pm

It may not be a recurring injury but it is recurring injuries for the poor lad. I think I read that he has only played 23 games in the last 3 seasons?

by nathan Wed 04 Jan 2017, 6:07 pm

Will be interesting to see if Ben Kay has any insights on Ruby Tonight

by formerly known as Sam Wed 04 Jan 2017, 6:32 pm

eirebilly wrote:It may not be a recurring injury but it is recurring injuries for the poor lad. I think I read that he has only played 23 games in the last 3 seasons?

It's awful luck for the lad. That would sound about right in terms of game time. Hopefully he can bounce back quickly from this one and maybe get a full pre season in.

by nathan Wed 04 Jan 2017, 8:15 pm

Ben Kay pretty much saying cockers could go to Northampton

by Welly Wed 04 Jan 2017, 8:31 pm

No he didn't.

Loads of DOR are under pressure
Humphreys
Diamond
Worcs
Aswell as Saints.

Cockerill will never ever go to Northampton.

by broadlandboy Wed 04 Jan 2017, 8:33 pm

Only to upset West

by nathan Wed 04 Jan 2017, 8:34 pm

Welly wrote: No he didn't.

Loads of DOR are under pressure
Humphreys
Diamond
Worcs
Aswell as Saints.

Cockerill will never ever go to Northampton.

Out of those, Mallinder is clearly the most under pressure and it will make sense for Northampton as he wouldn't need to relocate.

by nathan Wed 04 Jan 2017, 8:35 pm

broadlandboy wrote:Only to upset West

That would make me chuckle, wonder if there would be a punch up again

by Welly Wed 04 Jan 2017, 9:02 pm

nathan wrote:
Welly wrote: No he didn't.

Loads of DOR are under pressure
Humphreys
Diamond
Worcs
Aswell as Saints.

Cockerill will never ever go to Northampton.

Out of those, Mallinder is clearly the most under pressure and it will make sense for Northampton as he wouldn't need to relocate.

He won't go Northampton I'm telling you that as a fact.

by Gooseberry Thu 05 Jan 2017, 8:28 am

Apologies Sam I thought Id read it was his groin again.
Not that a serious cruiciate damage is much better, but at least this came from a random in game incudent rather than an inherent long term weakness in his body .

Id be surprised if it was as many as 23 games in the last 3 seasons ...a few of those would be as a replacement too. Hes barely played over 100 in his career despite being a Tigers first teamer straight out of school. Its probably as well he started so young

by king_carlos Thu 05 Jan 2017, 9:26 am

Welly wrote:Boris Stankovich scrum coach (part time)
Brett Deacon forwards and defence coach.

Stanko and Marcos were well known to have been good friends and two guys who loved 'studying' scrummaging together. If Stanko stays involved he'll probably encourage Marcos to start working with the younger guys more and more which is no bad thing.

As for Brett Deacon, he's an inexperienced coach but any new input into the defensive play is needed at the moment.

I think many, myself included, are starting to question how much Richard Blaze is really doing with the forwards as 'assistant forwards coach'. I reckon he's a guy who could gain a lot by going and coaching a side where he could have more input and grow as a coach.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 05 Jan 2017, 9:48 am

So, with four of our top five earning players currently crocked (among others), apparently over £2m of the salary cap is on the sidelines unable to play. While salary cap rules mean we are allowed to get a short term replacement in for Manu at least, club finances probably do not.

If Sarries had an injury crisis in the centre they could probably bring in someone like Jesse Kriel Very Happy

by king_carlos Thu 05 Jan 2017, 10:30 am

https://twitter.com/benkay5/status/816769824038723584

An interesting input from Ben Kay here. Well put and insightful as usual from Kay. As he admits he has biases through the board and his friendship with Cockers but he still sums things up well.

by king_carlos Thu 05 Jan 2017, 10:33 am

LondonTiger wrote:So, with four of our top five earning players currently crocked (among others), apparently over £2m of the salary cap is on the sidelines unable to play. While salary cap rules mean we are allowed to get a short term replacement in for Manu at least, club finances probably do not.

If Sarries had an injury crisis in the centre they could probably bring in someone like Jesse Kriel

The lack of money for a Toomua (and now Manu) injury replacement is the best example of the clubs financial differences to other top 4 rivals.

Wasps getting Willie Le Roux on injury dispensation budget with an eye to strengthening their squad for the business end of the season rather than replace the injured Kurtley Beale is a stark contrast.

by formerly known as Sam Thu 05 Jan 2017, 10:57 am

I wonder as the remainder of the season gets shorter whether we'll be able to afford somebody. Signing someone for 4 months is cheaper than signing someone for 6.

by king_carlos Thu 05 Jan 2017, 11:14 am

I hope that's the case but I'm not holding my breath. A short term contract would likely need to come from the Top League once the Japan season ends. I couldn't tell you if there are any decent centres such as Siale Piutau plying their trade there that could be swept up.

As always when Manu gets another long term injury there are speculations he may be moving on for a change of scenery sooner rather than later.

by formerly known as Sam Thu 05 Jan 2017, 12:43 pm

Manu hasn't long moved into his new house with his girlfriend who is from the Leicestershire area. I doubt he's looking for a move away.

If we could get hold of a big lump of a centre on a short term deal that would be ideal. We're just short of physical impact with both Smith and Manu injured. Maybe Freddie Snr can send us over an islander for a few months.

by eirebilly Thu 05 Jan 2017, 1:23 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Manu hasn't long moved into his new house with his girlfriend who is from the Leicestershire area. I doubt he's looking for a move away.

I also doubt very much that he would be looking for a move away but the decision may not be his. As stated previously, the Tigers management may already be looking at moving him on and almost certainly would if he picks up another long term injury soon after returning from this one. Its all money and business and I cant think of a single management team that would continue to pay someone who is not contributing.

This may sound harsh but it is reality. I like Manu and really feel for the lad but some players simply have bad luck. It must be extremely frustrating for the poor lad.

by Welly Thu 05 Jan 2017, 2:07 pm

I think a pay cut is more likely than a move.

Doubt any other AP team would pay him as much now any way.

by eirebilly Thu 05 Jan 2017, 2:14 pm

You are probably right there Welly. Maybe he is already on reduced wages and we do not know. Fact is though, when fit and on form he is one of the best.

by king_carlos Thu 05 Jan 2017, 2:16 pm

The only way I could see Manu leaving is if he just wants a break from the game completely. He must be beginning to ask himself at which point that is an option to consider though.

As Welly says I can't see him securing more money than his currently huge contract does elsewhere until he's playing regular rugby again.

by king_carlos Sun 08 Jan 2017, 5:09 pm

A better result than I was expecting and I'd have settled for the LBP and holding Wasps to 3 tries. Both halves were very frustrating to watch for different reasons though.

So great to see Matt Smith back in the side, once again our defensive structure is completely different with him at 12. It was still far from perfect, especially in the first half, but much better overall.

I thought Genge was outstanding, Slater much better in attack and Brady put in the best performance I've seen from him in a Tigers shirt.

Locky was excellent when he came on as well. He's much more direct in his link play and carrying compared to BOC who is better in the wide channels when things open up.

BOC and Evans in the same side did help with the line speed though. Whenever the defence was coming up quick around the fringes it was being led by one of them.

by nathan Sun 08 Jan 2017, 5:28 pm

When can we expect Tait, TV back? Was really unhappy with Williams at 10 and thought we were much better with burns there

by king_carlos Sun 08 Jan 2017, 5:59 pm

I think that's usually the case for our attack, nathan.

Owen is a good defender and he has a howitzer of a boot but he doesn't get the back line moving like Freddie does.

Taity was initially stated as 2 months out when he broke his jaw. That was in late November.

TV got a head knock playing for Tonga and needed 'a lengthy spell on the sidelines'. Just a case of no contact until all the symptoms of the injury are gone. That was about a week after Tait took his knock and little has been heard since.

JPP had surgery on a pectoral injury at the end of December. Expected recovery was 6-8 weeks so he's a while away.

As usual the club say very little about injured players though. Marcos needed 'a couple of weeks out' due to a calf strain almost two months ago.

With Williams looking like he picked up a nasty arm injury I expect we will see Worth at full back and Freddie at 10 until Tait is fit to return. I'm happy with both as well in the circumstances. Worth especially has really risen to the challenge this season and hasn't look out of place.

by nathan Sun 08 Jan 2017, 6:08 pm

Thought Ben Youngs didn't have the greatest of games, his kicking seems to drift between really good to poor - having said that it could be down to team mates not chasing hard enough

by formerly known as Sam Sun 08 Jan 2017, 6:25 pm

Williams had probably the worst game he's ever had for the club. Very disappointing after the good showing of Williams at 10 and Burns at 15 last weekend. I'd have Worth over Tait at 15 for the rest of the season given the form they've both shown.

Was much happier with the defence particularly the pressure we applied around and at the breakdown. That second half defence needs to be a template for us going forward, was exactly the style of defence you'd think of with Brett Deacon.

Really liked how we used our big ball carriers in tandem in attack. Multiple ball carriers coming at pace as opposed to one static option. Just got to keep the ball in hand and we'll overload defences and I reckon that'll work very well against the big Racing team next week.

by nathan Sun 08 Jan 2017, 6:41 pm

Happy for worth to start but he needs to work on taking the high ball. He tends to get targeted a lot more when at 15. I think it was Exeter who got a lot of change out of it

by formerly known as Sam Sun 08 Jan 2017, 6:57 pm

nathan wrote:Happy for worth to start but he needs to work on taking the high ball. He tends to get targeted a lot more when at 15. I think it was Exeter who got a lot of change out of it

Munster away. Burns was at 15 for the Exeter game.

Worth has been moved around a bit which hasn't necessarily helped him. Notts played him at flyhalf and England under 20s played him at 12. Hopefully he'll be working hard with Geordan on the high ball and his step off the catch which is where Murphy was phenomenal.

by nathan Sun 08 Jan 2017, 7:15 pm

Ah, that makes sense.

by king_carlos Mon 09 Jan 2017, 10:14 am

What did everyone think of Charlie Thacker when he came off the bench?

One nervy pass aside I thought he looked solid. There were a couple of moments when he struggled in contact more than he'll be used to against younger opponents. That's normal for a young guy making the step up though, especially one who plays a physical game.

by formerly known as Sam Mon 09 Jan 2017, 10:30 am

Couple of errors where he was trying a little too hard. Loopy pass that nearly resulted in a try and getting tackled into touch by Wade. Learning process, he looked like he was physical enough to play at this level but he just needs to relax and do the basics well first rather than trying to stake a claim. Use Smith as an example, he did nothing fancy but was one of our best players.

by Welly Mon 09 Jan 2017, 10:47 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:Couple of errors where he was trying a little too hard. Loopy pass that nearly resulted in a try and getting tackled into touch by Wade. Learning process, he looked like he was physical enough to play at this level but he just needs to relax and do the basics well first rather than trying to stake a claim. Use Smith as an example, he did nothing fancy but was one of our best players.

What try? Wasps scored all 3 tries before he was on the pitch.

I thought he did alright, have seen a lot worse debuts against weaker teams.

expect him to start in the LV cup.

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