Euro 2016 Discussion

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Duty281 wrote:Sterling and Rooney have been woeful thus far and need to be dropped (but 1 of them certainly won't be), but I would favour giving Kane one final chance. He's had an excellent couple of seasons, and England shouldn't jettison him at the first sign of difficulty.

Rooney woeful? I'm not his biggest fan but he's been pretty good so far, working well alongside Dier allowing Alli to push on further

Think the Tottenham players in particular, especially Kane and Alli, have looked tired. Product of quite a small squad but playing lots of games with Pochettino's hard pressing style. Liverpool played more games but Klopp rotated like crazy, so I imagine Lallana, Sturridge, Henderson and Clyne are slightly more fit. 

Walker, Rose and Dier have looked fine so far so maybe it isn't the problem, but does seem Kane and Alli are suffering similar effects.

If we are able to rest players and still beat Slovakia then it will be a perfect result. I guess I am just worried that potentially we could be creating problems for ourselves, and let's be honest we have enough problems without having to make more.

Winner of the group has 4 full days rest before last 16, then 5 full days before 1/4.

Group b does have 2nd in group f which is a weak group.

If England get beat and come 3rd they'd be up against Germany or Spain with a similar rest period.

Think that's right it is complicated this draw!

GSC wrote:Ultimately I think you have to manage burnout a bit at these tournaments. Most players have played a full season and there's not that much rest between games.

I would guess that the successful tournament sides very rarely rotate too much. No point.

Wouldn't surprise me if we saw Spain/Germany/Italy either rest players or play with their foot off the gas.

Five or six for one game?

Those teams are pretty certain of winning their group though.

Duty281 wrote:If England win today, they can rest some players for the last-16 match (against either the Czechs or Albania, most likely), and still have a great chance of making the Semi-Finals.

If England draw, they may well be playing Portugal in the last-16, which is no simple matter.

If England lose today, they're going out in the last 16 to Germany or Spain.

That's why it's foolish to make wholesale changes.

I don't often agree with Duty, but on this one it's a very risky strategy by Woy based on who we could likely face if we slip up.

Crimey wrote:The only positive you could say with the changes is that with Clyne, Henderson, Lallana and Sturridge, their understanding at a club level may prevent a performance that is too disjointed.

I do agree however that Hodgson is being a little silly making so many changes, had England been very comfortable, played exceptionally well I'd say fair enough but as it is, the best eleven is still totally unknown, England have looked uninspiring both games and still really need the win to get a good draw in the last 16.

Didn't work in the World Cup when, including Gerrard, we had five players from the Liverpool team that came 2nd in the PL. Of course Hodgson had/has no intention of mimicking Liverpool's style of play to ensure there's a fluidity about England's play. Watched on one the friendlies a while back with Henderson and Lallana playing the high pressing game as they have under Klopp. None of the remaining England players did so gapps we left in behind and, rather than push and press, the team stayed where they were, Henderson and Lallana dropped back and the whole England/Hodgson ethos of "bore the crowd stupid with your slow stilted play" started all over again.

Having looked at the stages, England's route isn't that easy

Second round vs Albania/Czech Rep
QF vs Belgium or Portugal
SF vs Spain
Final vs Germany or France

LiamB wrote:Having looked at the stages, England's route isn't that easy

Second round vs Albania/Czech Rep
QF vs Belgium or Portugal
SF vs Spain
Final vs Germany or France

I mean it'd have been difficult to win the tournament without facing at least one or two top sides.

Not that any of those you've listed from Quarter Final onwards are guaranteed progression.

I'd put money on either Belgium or Portugal beating us, if I'm honest.

Still, getting to a QF would be progress of sorts.

I take you haven't actually watched either team this tournament dyre?

I'd fancy England to beat Portugal to be honest. They've looked really poor, still not convinced they're even going to qualify.

If Ronaldo improves, then Portugal will be a different side. They haven't played well so far but from what I've seen they haven't had much luck.

I'm just not sure Ronaldo is the problem for Portugal, his style of game has changed, he can't do it all on his own, but nobody seems to have told his teammates. There is a lot of talent in that Portugese side, but I think England have outperformed this tournament and I think England would have a good chance of beating them. I'd fancy Daniel Sturridge and Jamie Vardy against that creaking centre back pair.

I don't even see that talent. They have a few tidy midfielders but outside of that and Ronaldo they're dire.

dyrewolfe wrote:Still, getting to a QF would be progress of sorts.

Not really, beating Albania or Czech Republic & getting to the QF is not really classified as progress. You have to remember, reaching the QF of a Euro's, is essentially the equivalent of reaching the second round of a World Cup, in terms of opposition quality, so it's really not impressive. We'd have to reach a semi-final here, for me to judge this as a success & should be the minimum required for Roy to keep his job.

As for Joao Mario, he looks nothing special. I'm still struggling to see where Bayern spent £28m, rising to £50m+ on Renato Sanches, from what I've seen, he looks decent at most. The only player that has stood out, has been Guerriero & Dortmund look like they've signed well there.

Nani's looked lively. He can produce the sublime, but not often.

GSC wrote:I don't even see that talent. They have a few tidy midfielders but outside of that and Ronaldo they're dire.

Their left back Guerriero looks good. Moutinho, Andre Gomes are both good midfielders. I was impressed with Danilo when I saw him and William Carvalho is a prospect. I've been pleasantly surprised to see Ricardo Carvalho hasn't lost his reading of the game, lacks pace obviously but he's not bad.

I think they lack dynamic talents though. They have the basis of a good side, but Nani and Quaresma are poor.

LiamB wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:Still, getting to a QF would be progress of sorts.

Not really, beating Albania or Czech Republic & getting to the QF is not really classified as progress. You have to remember, reaching the QF of a Euro's, is essentially the equivalent of reaching the second round of a World Cup, in terms of opposition quality, so it's really not impressive. We'd have to reach a semi-final here, for me to judge this as a success & should be the minimum required for Roy to keep his job.

So that would be progress, England didn't get to the second round of the last World Cup! 

I think Hodgson should go, unless he gets to the semi-finals as well, but I also think Quarter Final would mark progress. This is based on the fact that England didn't get out of their group at the last World Cup, got to QFs at Euro 2012, R16 at World Cup 2010, didn't qualify for Euro 2008. So Quarter Finals here would be the best result for 10 years for England really.

I don't actually think semi finals is too unrealistic of a prospect. Draw goes well for England they would avoid any of the big teams until then anyway. I've not been impressed by too many teams and actually think England have a more all-round talented squad than since 2006.

How can a footballing nation like ours, the squad we have, judge beating Albania or Czech Republic as progress? How depressing.

LiamB wrote:How can a footballing nation like ours, the squad we have, judge beating Albania or Czech Republic as progress? How depressing.

Do you know what progress actually means? It means better than what has come before. Reaching the Quarter Finals of this competition would be the best England has done since 2006.

Playing better Football is already better than 2006 dross served up.

Difficult to judge this as progress. Are we honestly playing better football, all we've done is out-play minnows? The format has included woeful sides, which has made progress easier to latter stages, than previously. We've beaten a one-man Wales, struggled to beat Russia, could possibly beat Slovakia tonight, who are world ranked 24, behind sides like Romania & then we could beat a terrible albania or a woeful czech republic. There is nothing to shout about achieving that, it's the bare minimum anyone should be expecting from England, given the squad & quality we have.

Technically, it's progress, as we haven't reached a QF for a long time, but you have to factor in the format & opposition faced to get there. So far, the opposition we've faced have been quite frankly embarrassing & will continue to be so, until the QF.

Do you know what. I don't really care where we finish tbh. I'm actually enjoying watching England play for the first time in years, and while that may be a low bar to clear, the golden generation never got near it.

GSC wrote:Do you know what. I don't really care where we finish tbh. I'm actually enjoying watching England play for the first time in years, and while that may be a low bar to clear, the golden generation never got near it.

I agree.

Roy has to take credit for this.

LiamB wrote:Difficult to judge this as progress. Are we honestly playing better football, all we've done is out-play minnows? The format has included woeful sides, which has made progress easier to latter stages, than previously. We've beaten a one-man Wales, struggled to beat Russia, could possibly beat Slovakia tonight, who are world ranked 24, behind sides like Romania & then we could beat a terrible albania or a woeful czech republic. There is nothing to shout about achieving that, it's the bare minimum anyone should be expecting from England, given the squad & quality we have.

Technically, it's progress, as we haven't reached a QF for a long time, but you have to factor in the format & opposition faced to get there. So far, the opposition we've faced have been quite frankly embarrassing & will continue to be so, until the QF.

That's all true, but you can only measure progress by comparing it to what has come before. I'm not sure what England you're comparing to, if getting to the Quarter Finals doesn't represent progress. I suppose we could measure it against some ideal, but not sure that's helpful. 

England in the last 20 years have had this:

Euro 96: Semi finals (drew with Switzerland, beat Scotland, Netherlands; then had a goalless draw with Spain, then out on penalties against Germany)
World Cup 98: R16 (beat Tunisia and Colombia, lost to Romania; then out on penalties to Argentina who only got to quarters)
Euro 2000: Group Stage (beat Germany, lost to Portugal and Romania)
World Cup 2002: Quarter Finals (Beat Argentina, drew with Nigeria and Sweden; beat Denmark, lost to Brazil who won the whole thing)
Euro 2004: Quarter Finals (beat Switzerland and Croatia, lost to France; lost to Portugal on penalties)
World Cup 2006: Quarter Finals (beat Paraguay, Trinidad and Tobago, drew with Sweden; beat Ecuador; lost to Portugal on penalties)
Euro 2008: DNQ
World Cup 2010: R16 (drew with Algeria and USA, beat Slovenia; lost to Germany)
Euro 2012: Quarter Finals: (beat Sweden and Ukraine, drew with France; lost to Italy on penalties)
World Cup 2014: Group Stage (lost to Italy and Uruguay, drew with Costa Rica)


Based on that, a quarter final finish here would be the best since 2006 or 1996. In that entire time England did not have to beat a top side to achieve anything. In 2000 and 2002, beat Germany and Argentina, but both of them went out of the group stages anyway. Only once were England knocked out by the winners. Generally the best England have been able to hope for most of their footballing existence is getting to the stage until they face a top side and getting knocked out. If anything England have failed to even reach those "lofty" heights for most of the past twenty years.

The failure of "The Golden Generation" to achieve anything may soon be eclipsed by this current mob.

Stella wrote:

GSC wrote:Do you know what. I don't really care where we finish tbh. I'm actually enjoying watching England play for the first time in years, and while that may be a low bar to clear, the golden generation never got near it.

I agree.

Roy has to take credit for this.

I also completely agree with this.  Last time I enjoyed watching England was Euro 96 I think (bar some heroic games from Beckham).

Albania may not even make it as one of the four third best teams right?

Well it makes it highly likely 4 points makes it.

Dont they have 3

Yeah, but only takes one more team to fail to get 4 to make that a guaranteed quali cut off.

LiamB wrote:Difficult to judge this as progress. Are we honestly playing better football, all we've done is out-play minnows? The format has included woeful sides, which has made progress easier to latter stages, than previously. We've beaten a one-man Wales, struggled to beat Russia, could possibly beat Slovakia tonight, who are world ranked 24, behind sides like Romania & then we could beat a terrible albania or a woeful czech republic. There is nothing to shout about achieving that, it's the bare minimum anyone should be expecting from England, given the squad & quality we have.

Technically, it's progress, as we haven't reached a QF for a long time, but you have to factor in the format & opposition faced to get there. So far, the opposition we've faced have been quite frankly embarrassing & will continue to be so, until the QF.

You can only play what's put in front of you we didn't pick the group.

GSC wrote:Yeah, but only takes one more team to fail to get 4 to make that a guaranteed quali cut off.

They have a poor goal difference, be surprised if they make it.

Fair play if they do though.

Confirmed six changes, but bizarre he leaves the booked Cahill in.

Think making changes is fine - were through and should still beat Slovakia with this side

Kinda no point having a squad if you're not gonna use it to rotate at least in one game

Cahill and Smalling need gametime I guess

Think Wales could be in trouble tonight unless they go a bit more aggressive than they have so far

Is this England really any weaker than the one that started the Wales game? Think you could make a genuine argument for all the guys who have come in to start in the best XI (maybe Bertrand aside)

You could try for Henderson.

Lots of changes as was reported; good point Olly, wonder whether their is more to it than merely resting players, still don't think Roy knows what his best starting XI is fully; certainly midfield and up top.

The problems come if this team play very well tonight; he has then put himself into a difficult position come the knockout round as you can't go dropping players if a team puts in a full 90 minute impressive performance especially since the consensus is that while we have got the job done thus far it's been far from easy and at times disjointed.

Here's hoping for a complete performance tonight. Come on England! Also lets go Wales..would love to see them progress tonight

Vokes starts for Wales.

Good to see him get a start.

Bale close to making it 1-0 already.

Opening minutes have shown the value of Rooney, nobody's really asking for the ball yet. Decent chance for Sturridge though

1-0 Wales.

Ramsey

Silly from Henderson, get it back in

Vardy has to score there

Ouch