Nacewa - Fiji caps

First topic message reminder :

Watching the Wales-Baa Baa'a game yesterday I saw that Nacewa only has one cap for Fiji, back in 2003. How has he not got more? Has he made the decision not to play for his country or something?

You would have thought a player that has held down a place for a few years now in one of the best teams in Europe would be an every present in a team like Fiji.

On a side note, Martyn Williams is looking a bit past it isn't he?

red_stag wrote:
All of Ulsters foreign signings (or maybe 5/6) are in their starting XV. It makes it seem as though there are more foreign players at Ulster when in reality we all have the same.

Is that an indication that Ulster are signing better quality players maybe and that several of Munster and Leinsters signings have failed to make the expected impact?

Ulster are simply at an earlier stage in their development and obviously to compete at the top level we need to sign experienced top players to compiment the talent coming through.

It also seems to be the case that for various reasons, such as the tax rebate, we also find it hard to attract other Irish players from the other provinces up to ravenhill therefore we have to look overseas at times or rely on overseas based IQ players like D'arcy, Court or Touhy.

roddersm wrote:

red_stag wrote:
All of Ulsters foreign signings (or maybe 5/6) are in their starting XV. It makes it seem as though there are more foreign players at Ulster when in reality we all have the same.

Is that an indication that Ulster are signing better quality players maybe and that several of Munster and Leinsters signings have failed to make the expected impact?

Ulster are simply at an earlier stage in their development and obviously to compete at the top level we need to sign experienced top players to compiment the talent coming through.

It also seems to be the case that for various reasons, such as the tax rebate, we also find it hard to attract other Irish players from the other provinces up to ravenhill therefore we have to look overseas at times or rely on overseas based IQ players like D'arcy, Court or Touhy.

Bit of both really. With Munster our foreign guys have done well by and large but IQ guys have over taken them. I see that as a job well done and the system working. The NIQ presence has led to our IQ guys improving as players. We used to have Tuitupou, du Preez and Warwick as players in our starting XV. However Danny Barnes, Marcus Horan and Felix Jones have all wrestled the shirt off them.

http://tvnz.co.nz/rugby-news/nacewa-boost-fiji-world-cup-hopes-3088557

It seems he is not against playing for Fiji after all

LewseyforPM wrote:http://tvnz.co.nz/rugby-news/nacewa-boost-fiji-world-cup-hopes-3088557

It seems he is not against playing for Fiji after all

That article is from 2009. And he never played for Fiji on that tour, or since. He also hasn't been named in Fijis preliminary 37-man squad for the RWC.

Playing hard to get, eh?

red_stag wrote:
Bit of both really. With Munster our foreign guys have done well by and large but IQ guys have over taken them. I see that as a job well done and the system working. The NIQ presence has led to our IQ guys improving as players. We used to have Tuitupou, du Preez and Warwick as players in our starting XV. However Danny Barnes, Marcus Horan and Felix Jones have all wrestled the shirt off them.

Stag Tuitupou and Warwick are on the way out so I'm not sure that the have wrestled the shirts as such and Horan is no spring chicken.

Craig Gilroy is putting Danielli under big pressure for the no11 jersey and will likely have surpassed him next season. Diak and Wannenburg have had a fight for a starting spot this season with Faloon and Henry and had Ferris been fit then perhaps Wannenburg may not have had as many starts. BJ has hardly played this season and when he has, he's rarely lasted 80min. For much of the season Pienaar was the only NIQ in the backline.

Of the overseas players on Muller and Pienaar have been nailed on starters so I really do think the South African thing has been overplayed in the media. Noone ever queries the impact of Strauss, Nacewa and Hines in Leinster success. Williams,Tipoki, Howlett and warwick have been key to everything Munster have achieved.

The reality is that Ulster are no more reliant on overseas players than the other provinces or at least not significantly more so yet this is what a lot of the media have suggested.

Personally I think the system is working for all the provinces and I think the criticism Ulster have gotten is unfair and inaccurate.

Well, it only says about the world cup, so tours are neither here nor there.

But if he is not in the squad then we can probably assume he isn't involved

roddersm wrote:

red_stag wrote:
Bit of both really. With Munster our foreign guys have done well by and large but IQ guys have over taken them. I see that as a job well done and the system working. The NIQ presence has led to our IQ guys improving as players. We used to have Tuitupou, du Preez and Warwick as players in our starting XV. However Danny Barnes, Marcus Horan and Felix Jones have all wrestled the shirt off them.

Stag Tuitupou and Warwick are on the way out so I'm not sure that the have wrestled the shirts as such and Horan is no spring chicken.

Craig Gilroy is putting Danielli under big pressure for the no11 jersey and will likely have surpassed him next season. Diak and Wannenburg have had a fight for a starting spot this season with Faloon and Henry and had Ferris been fit then perhaps Wannenburg may not have had as many starts. BJ has hardly played this season and when he has, he's rarely lasted 80min. For much of the season Pienaar was the only NIQ in the backline.

Of the overseas players on Muller and Pienaar have been nailed on starters so I really do think the South African thing has been overplayed in the media. Noone ever queries the impact of Strauss, Nacewa and Hines in Leinster success. Williams,Tipoki, Howlett and warwick have been key to everything Munster have achieved.

The reality is that Ulster are no more reliant on overseas players than the other provinces or at least not significantly more so yet this is what a lot of the media have suggested.

Personally I think the system is working for all the provinces and I think the criticism Ulster have gotten is unfair and inaccurate.

They aren't getting criticism from me. We all have the same amount of NIQ. But they have more NIQ starting players than Munster and Leinster. Thats not a problem IMO its a great thing as it means Ulster are winning games and in time their young Irish lads will learn from them. I'm not attacking Ulster just giving my take on why they get stick.

The situation we are in now is Phase One. Bit like when Leinster relied on players like Contepomi and Elsom, until eventually younger players emerged to step up and take their place.

We'll have an NIQ lock and backrow for a long time though.

Notch wrote:The situation we are in now is Phase One. Bit like when Leinster relied on players like Contepomi and Elsom, until eventually younger players emerged to step up and take their place.

We'll have an NIQ lock and backrow for a long time though.

Exactly different stage of development entirely. To the untrained eye it makes it look like Ulster have more NIQ but its the same thing really.

red_stag wrote:
They aren't getting criticism from me. We all have the same amount of NIQ. But they have more NIQ starting players than Munster and Leinster.

Yes but do they really stag? Ulsters starting line up is:

15 D'arcy
14 Trimble
13 Spence /Cave
12 Wallace / Humphreys
11 Danielli / Gilroy
10 Humphreys
9 Pienaar
8 Wannenburg/ Diak/ Henry
7 Faloon/ Henry
6 Ferris/ Wannenburg/ Diak
5 Muller
4 Touhy/ Barker
3 BJ /McCallister
2 Best/
1 Court

Next season may be different but this year the only two firm starters who were NIQ were Pienaar and Muller. BJ was injured most of the season and Wannenburg only established himself after Ferris injury and initially made the side at Diaks expense. Danielli had to reestablish himself after Gilroy took his jersey.

Rodders, you named 5 NIQ in that starting team I am talking about how it appears to the casual fan and the cynical media. I have already said Ulster are in the same boat as Munster/Leinster when it comes to NIQ numbers.

No Stag I named 5 potential NIQ starters, which is the exact same as Munster and Leinster!

roddersm wrote:No Stag I named 5 potential NIQ starters, which is the exact same as Munster and Leinster!

Which is my point all along. IN REALITY ULSTER ARE NO DIFFERENT TO LEINSTER AND MUNSTER. However to a casual fan it looks as though they have more NIQ due to the fact that their star performers have been by and large NIQ. Leinster have Sexton, O'Driscoll and O'Brien drawing the plaudits. At Munster its still about O'Connell and O'Gara. In Ulster apart from Ferris who was injured all year it is the likes of Muller and Pienaar who are making the headlines.

roddersm wrote:

Of the overseas players on Muller and Pienaar have been nailed on starters so I really do think the South African thing has been overplayed in the media. Noone ever queries the impact of Strauss, Nacewa and Hines in Leinster success. Williams,Tipoki, Howlett and warwick have been key to everything Munster have achieved.

Shaun Payne (who was Ireland qualified through a grandparent) & Trevor Halstead non Munster men who started the '06 HCup final.

Howlett, Tipoki & Mafi started the '08 final. Warwick didn't make it off the bench (he was ROG's cover only).

Wannenburg was a definite starter for Ulster. No doubt about it. I can't believe you're trying to assert he wasn't.

MBTGOG wrote:Wannenburg was a definite starter for Ulster. No doubt about it. I can't believe you're trying to assert he wasn't.

Not initially he wasn't and it took him a few games before he established himself. Ferris injury meant that his ball carrying was very important for us but for me Ulsters best back row has Ferris at blindside and Falloon at 7. Its a toss up between Diak and Wannenburg at 8 but Ulsters 2 best Back rowers are IQ. Wannenburg apparantly is not guaranteed to get an extension and this will depend on Ferris injury.

Stag Ulsters best andmost consistant players this year were Pienaar, Muller, Faloon, Spence and Humphreys. Best, Trimble, Wallace, Marshall, Wannenburg, Barker, Tuohy, Henry and Ferris all had excellent seasons too.

The fact that the overseas players got more hype in the Irish media says a lot about the media and how they view ulster.

roddersm wrote:The fact that the overseas players got more hype in the Irish media says a lot about the media and how they view ulster.

Yes which is my point. I don't understand why you are getting so defensive about this. BTW Wannenburg is clearly a starter for Ulster.

Wannenburg is clearly a key player for Ulster who would definitely start any game of any importance in the eyes of the management.

Back to the subject in hand, it looks like Isa is thinking about it now. But, he has said if Leinster need him - and they will, he will stay with them. But, I reckon they (Schmidt & Co), would not deny the man a shot at a RWC, if he shows that desire to go. It his last chance to do so. Personally, Id love to see him there.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/welsh/13662465.stm

But Fiji have named their World Cup training squad.

I think everyone has up until late August to finalise their squads. Its a wee bit early yet.

red_stag wrote:But Fiji have named their World Cup training squad.

Not completely. They've withheld 7 names pending injury clearance.

I don't know if I'd be too happy with him being picked if I was a Fijian fan. He's making it very clear that his club is more important to him than Fiji, he's refused call-ups for internationals in the past and there's talk of him just walking into the RWC squad and 22? He's not exactly committed to the Fijian cause!

red_stag wrote:

roddersm wrote:The fact that the overseas players got more hype in the Irish media says a lot about the media and how they view ulster.

Yes which is my point. I don't understand why you are getting so defensive about this. BTW Wannenburg is clearly a starter for Ulster.

I'm not getting defensive, I just think there has been a lot of inaccurate statements made around Ulster this year. Pienaar has been brilliant all season but so has Humphreys yet Humphreys has hardly got a mention. Spence and faloon have been more important for Ulsters improvement this year than Wannenburg IMO. Gilroy was our top try scorer.

Mullers leadership has been fantastic but so has Bests, who had an excellent season. Tom Court has done more than BJ this year for us.

The overseas signings have been fantastic this year but many of the standout performers have been IQ and the media have not really gave this impression.

Believe me, they want him. They have been pestering him for years.

I dont think he will go anyway. But if he does, he will commit to the cause. I was reading some background on it last night. It would not be a problem.

I can just imagine him having a conversation with Leinster about his sudden desire to play in the rugby world cup ending with Schmidt putting on his best Taffin accent and screaming "WELL MAYBE YOU SHOULDNT BE LIVING HERE"

roddersm wrote:

red_stag wrote:

roddersm wrote:The fact that the overseas players got more hype in the Irish media says a lot about the media and how they view ulster.

Yes which is my point. I don't understand why you are getting so defensive about this. BTW Wannenburg is clearly a starter for Ulster.

I'm not getting defensive, I just think there has been a lot of inaccurate statements made around Ulster this year. Pienaar has been brilliant all season but so has Humphreys yet Humphreys has hardly got a mention. Spence and faloon have been more important for Ulsters improvement this year than Wannenburg IMO. Gilroy was our top try scorer.

Mullers leadership has been fantastic but so has Bests, who had an excellent season. Tom Court has done more than BJ this year for us.

The overseas signings have been fantastic this year but many of the standout performers have been IQ and the media have not really gave this impression.

Yeah, but none of the posters you are arguing with are making those inaccurate statements or giving the same line as, say, Hugh Farrelly (the massive Muppet). They're not criticising Ulster. So chill out!

I hope he goes to be honest. Leinster should take a stand and give him their blessing.

Back to the topic. It would be a shame if a player as good as Nacewa wasn't able to play at the WC. The guy is outstanding and along with Sean O'Brien was maybe the best player in the NH this season.

However if he isn't commited to Fiji then he should n't go.

He has been such a great servant to Leinster. Played in so many games when the Irish and other internatioals were away. They will let him go if he wants to.

It's all down to him.

Really didn't know that about 7 places left over. Maybe him and Caucau? I agree with Notch though I'm not sure how happy I'd be to see him given how little support he has shown to his "adopted" country.

Maybe beggars can't be choosers.

I hope he goes too, but I wouldn't if I was a Fijian rugby fan as opposed to a neutral. I'd be very happy to see him play. But I'm not Fijian.

red_stag wrote:Really didn't know that about 7 places left over. Maybe him and Caucau? I agree with Notch though I'm not sure how happy I'd be to see him given how little support he has shown to his "adopted" country.

Maybe beggars can't be choosers.

Caucau was asked, and said no. He preferred to stay in France with his family apparently.

Exactly. Whatever.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

red_stag wrote:Really didn't know that about 7 places left over. Maybe him and Caucau? I agree with Notch though I'm not sure how happy I'd be to see him given how little support he has shown to his "adopted" country.

Maybe beggars can't be choosers.

Caucau was asked, and said no.

Surprise surprise!

MBTGOG wrote:I hope he goes to be honest. Leinster should take a stand and give him their blessing.

Totally agree Munsty. He has been ultra-loyal to Leinster. Leinster should repay that. IF he wants to go.

This is not a normal case of a player just jumping on a bandwagon. The Fijians are well aware how he was "duped" as a kid and how it affected him deeply. He is a man now. Things change and a chance at a RWC, comes once in a lifetime for most players.

Id love to see him there - even at the expense of Leinster. He would enhance it.

Oh if he wants to go, the issue of Leinster standing in his way shouldn't even be up for debate. Of course he should go.

It shouldn't be Stag, but it looks like it is.

They can't stop him if he wants to go- they can't prevent him from going within the laws over player availability set down by the IRB unless there is a provision in his contract that says otherwise.

If he really wants to go, he'll go. I get the sense he's not that crazy about it and if Leinster asked him to stay he would. But the ball is in his court.

Notch,

I'm well aware of the laws and policies with regards to player release.

If Leinster say they'd like him around, he'll stay. I think they actually need to encourage him.

No, he just needs to make his own mind up. Leinster aren't (as far as information in the public domain goes) standing in his way. Either he goes or he doesn't. His club won't encourage him to go. They'll want him around. He just has to decide what he would rather do, what means more to him.

Nacewa shouldn't forget that he owes his European rugby career to his Fijian passport (its a Kolpak country which New Zealand isn't).

Pedrie is clearly our number 8. Diack hasnt covered himself in glory in the 2nd half of the season which is a shame considering the start he made to the season.

We do have more NIQs in our XV which is reasonable considering we are easily years behind Leinster (in particular). Our youngsters are quite literally a year or two behind the Rhys Ruddocks/Dominic Ryans and next season i expect the Luke Marshalls/Craig Gilroys to see a lot more action than the two aforementioned Leinstermen.

Apologies for the threadjack

Standulstermen wrote:Pedrie is clearly our number 8. Diack hasnt covered himself in glory in the 2nd half of the season which is a shame considering the start he made to the season.

We do have more NIQs in our XV which is reasonable considering we are easily years behind Leinster (in particular). Our youngsters are quite literally a year or two behind the Rhys Ruddocks/Dominic Ryans and next season i expect the Luke Marshalls/Craig Gilroys to see a lot more action than the two aforementioned Leinstermen.

Apologies for the threadjack

Stand I'm not denying Pedrie is currently first choice 8 but he isn't a guaranteed starter and has to fight for his place if everyone is fit. Diak started the season as 1st choice and fell away. However didn't he have time off to get married or something? The point is that there have been homegrown players who have contributed as much or more to our "success" this year than Wannenburg, Danielli or Botha.

roddersm wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Pedrie is clearly our number 8. Diack hasnt covered himself in glory in the 2nd half of the season which is a shame considering the start he made to the season.

We do have more NIQs in our XV which is reasonable considering we are easily years behind Leinster (in particular). Our youngsters are quite literally a year or two behind the Rhys Ruddocks/Dominic Ryans and next season i expect the Luke Marshalls/Craig Gilroys to see a lot more action than the two aforementioned Leinstermen.

Apologies for the threadjack

Stand I'm not denying Pedrie is currently first choice 8 but he isn't a guaranteed starter and has to fight for his place if everyone is fit.

I think he started almost every single match he was fit for bar three games; the away match against Munster where we sent out an understrength team with the aim of resting players and the game against Dragons where he got back from his wedding in South Africa two days before the game. He was also benchd for the home match against Edinburgh. He had more minutes on the pitch than any other Ulster player last season. He started all seven of our Heineken Cup games and the Magners League semi-final against Leinster.

Seriously rodders...

Not going to post further on this here Rodders as its not the right thread but i would disagree regarding Pedrie. For me the only players who were more important than him this past year were Muller, Pienaar and Humph. He was awesome for us and his workrate is just off the chart. Even when 1F comes back i think he is nailed on (currently) and the other 3 have to fight it out. Good to see you posting anyway chief.

I hope he decides to play in the world cup as his a good player to watch and the world cup needs players like him, plus his experiance in the ML against the welsh boyos fuji should be moving heaven and earth to get this guy in their team.

MBTGOG wrote:Notch,

I'm well aware of the laws and policies with regards to player release.

If Leinster say they'd like him around, he'll stay. I think they actually need to encourage him.

Leinster have said nothing yet, in the way of stopping him. I think we need to wait and see. They can only encourage him if he makes his own decision, in the 1st place. It looks to me, like he is sounding them out. Why would he say it otherwise? If he wasn't seriously thinking about it, he wouldnt say it. Every Leinster fan would shout for him to go. He's that loved and respected.

The club... and especially Schmidt (they go back) - wont stop him. Its good for the club's prestige in the long-term. The more internationals the better. And thinking about it, it would be a great chance for Conway and D. Kearney to step up in the ML. Sure we've oodles of options at the back. I expect to see some of them used in the ML - as we did last year, so successfuly.

Go Isa Go!

OK folks I stand corrected on Wannenburg. He was an important player particularly around the middle of the season, were he put in quite a few big performances. No more on this from me!