Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

First topic message reminder :

Venues announced and both Govs underwriting cost.


http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/government-to-underwrite-320m-in-bid-for-2023-rugby-world-cup-414609.html


Croke Park, The Aviva stadium, RDS in Dublin; (3)
Casement Park and Kingspan Stadium in Belfast (2)
Pairc Uí Chaoimh in Cork;

These include Croke Park, the Aviva Stadium and the RDS in Dublin;
Casement Park and Kingspan Stadium in Belfast;
Pairc Uí Chaoimh in Cork;
Thomond Park, Limerick;
Fitzgerald Stadium, Killarney;
Pearse Stadium, Galway;
McHale Park in Castlebar;
Nowlan Park, Kilkenny;
and Celtic Park in Derry.

Great to see how evenly spread around the island (Derry & Kilkenny for example).

The operational costs for redeveloping some of these venues and bringing them up to standards and sizes for the tournament is estimated to cost in the region of €60m.

I think we have a good chance.

Japan followed by Ireland. Doesn't make sense to me.

We get it you don't want it in Ireland.

Any chance of playing another record - the needle is stuck

Gwlad wrote:Japan followed by Ireland. Doesn't make sense to me.

Totally agree, it should go to a landlocked country next time.

Just don't think 3 NH RWCs on the bounce makes sense. SA for me.

Gwlad wrote:Japan followed by Ireland. Doesn't make sense to me.

That's Irelands bid screwed then since it doesn't meet that essential criteria

marty2086 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Japan followed by Ireland. Doesn't make sense to me.

That's Irelands bid screwed then since it doesn't meet that essential criteria

Prickly as ever

Gwlad wrote:Just don't think 3 NH RWCs on the bounce makes sense. SA for me.

Its nice to know that a country riddled with corruption, rife with crime, lurching from political crisis to political crisis, with serious funding and infrastructure issues makes more sense than 3 consecutive NH hosts

Gwlad wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Japan followed by Ireland. Doesn't make sense to me.

That's Irelands bid screwed then since it doesn't meet that essential criteria

Prickly as ever

Sarcasm is beyond you then?

marty2086 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Just don't think 3 NH RWCs on the bounce makes sense. SA for me.

Its nice to know that a country riddled with corruption, rife with crime, lurching from political crisis to political crisis, with serious funding and infrastructure issues makes more sense than 3 consecutive NH hosts

Didn't realize the USA was in the mix?

Really such BS about SA, yes it has its problems but corruption/crime/political crisis all very dramatic. It is a true rugby heartland and has put on a superb - perhaps the best - RWC before.

marty2086 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Japan followed by Ireland. Doesn't make sense to me.

That's Irelands bid screwed then since it doesn't meet that essential criteria

Prickly as ever

Sarcasm is beyond you then?

and you it appears

Gwlad wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Just don't think 3 NH RWCs on the bounce makes sense. SA for me.

Its nice to know that a country riddled with corruption, rife with crime, lurching from political crisis to political crisis, with serious funding and infrastructure issues makes more sense than 3 consecutive NH hosts

Didn't realize the USA was in the mix?

Really such BS about SA, yes it has its problems but corruption/crime/political crisis all very dramatic. It is a true rugby heartland and has put on a superb - perhaps the best - RWC before.

Not dramatic at all, their 2006 World Cup bid is under investigation at the minute, as is the President and his govt, the crime rates are particularly high with last years figures shown an avg of 51 murders a day and 150 sexual offences.

40 people get murdered in the USA every day, you can likely read about more than 150 cases of sexual violence in the USA papers (and thats just the ones that get reported) and their political system is frankly creaking but you wouldn't dismiss hosting it there as readily as you have SA would you?
Smacks of concerning discrimination and fear mongering. Ireland is historically one of the most troubled nation in the NH in terms of violence but you just love to think its all the craic and Guiness

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/21/northern-ireland-fear-brexit-conflict-good-friday-agreement-eu

Open your eyes man

Plus it hosted an awesome lions tour which I went to and never once felt concerned. This naive ignorance about how fans will be murdered in their beds was the same cr@pola dished out pre Rio and the only idiots there were USA swimmers.

In fact Marty since you love trotting out irrelevant stats...how many fans were mudered in SA RWC 1995, SA FIFA WC 2006 and SA Lions 2009?

If Ireland win the bid I hope they do it on merit and not on fear mongering discrimination by people who think they know something about SA using the same trite arguments about how violent SA is.

Gwlad wrote:40 people get murdered in the USA every day, you can likely read about more than 150 cases of sexual violence in the USA papers (and thats just the ones that get reported) and their political system is frankly creaking but you wouldn't dismiss hosting it there as readily as you have SA would you?
Smacks of concerning discrimination and fear mongering. Ireland is historically one of the most troubled nation in the NH in terms of violence but you just love to think its all the craic and Guiness

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/21/northern-ireland-fear-brexit-conflict-good-friday-agreement-eu

Open your eyes man

The US has 6 times the population and still less murders, haven't really proven anything.

the-goon wrote:

Gwlad wrote:40 people get murdered in the USA every day, you can likely read about more than 150 cases of sexual violence in the USA papers (and thats just the ones that get reported) and their political system is frankly creaking but you wouldn't dismiss hosting it there as readily as you have SA would you?
Smacks of concerning discrimination and fear mongering. Ireland is historically one of the most troubled nation in the NH in terms of violence but you just love to think its all the craic and Guiness

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/21/northern-ireland-fear-brexit-conflict-good-friday-agreement-eu

Open your eyes man

The US has 6 times the population and still less murders, haven't really proven anything.

Not trying to. Illustrating the point that the hackneyed references to SA murder/crime rates and corruption are fear mongering rubbish. It happens everywhere and nobody would say don't bring your RWC to the USA because 40 people get murdered there every day and there is a gun related killing spree almost daily and its lead by a loon. If you can't understand that I can't help you.

Gwlad wrote:

the-goon wrote:

Gwlad wrote:40 people get murdered in the USA every day, you can likely read about more than 150 cases of sexual violence in the USA papers (and thats just the ones that get reported) and their political system is frankly creaking but you wouldn't dismiss hosting it there as readily as you have SA would you?
Smacks of concerning discrimination and fear mongering. Ireland is historically one of the most troubled nation in the NH in terms of violence but you just love to think its all the craic and Guiness

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/21/northern-ireland-fear-brexit-conflict-good-friday-agreement-eu

Open your eyes man

The US has 6 times the population and still less murders, haven't really proven anything.

Not trying to. Illustrating the point that the hackneyed references to SA murder/crime rates and corruption are fear mongering rubbish. It happens everywhere and nobody would say don't bring your RWC to the USA because 40 people get murdered there every day and there is a gun related killing spree almost daily and its lead by a loon. If you can't understand that I can't help you.

You're still trolling, Gwlad. Successfully, I might add, since a number of Irish posters are rising to your baited comments every time.

Oh dear I forgot, disagree with an Irishman and they get very very upset. I am not trolling I am expressing an opinion you don't like so unless you have one to make I suggest you desist from the constant accusations...do you have a counter or do you intend to continue making accusations?

Irish fans are suggesting Ireland is all rolling in the clover whereas when you fly into Joburg you'll be shot at customs. I am suggesting that is a load of old bollards.

That is all.

Whats 'baited' is wheeling out just how dangerous and corrupt SA is. Of course it is dangerous in certain areas, of course it has corruption, meanwhile are we to believe that Ireland is a bed of roses? Of course not, so lets leave the emotive stuff that isn't relevant aside. SA have hosted 3 world class events in the last 22 years...Ireland how many? And I wonder why...could it be the the years of sectarian violence? I will probably be slammed for even mentioning that yet SA constantly gets flushed for the same thing.
Point is Irish fans ought not to use the violence argument to dismiss SA, it kind of invites an examination of Ireland's recent and terrifying history. So, as I said, a decision on merit is welcome, not on stereotypical empty biases.

Gwlad wrote:Whats 'baited' is wheeling out just how dangerous and corrupt SA is. Of course it is dangerous in certain areas, of course it has corruption, meanwhile are we to believe that Ireland is a bed of roses? Of course not, so lets leave the emotive stuff that isn't relevant aside. SA have hosted 3 world class events in the last 22 years...Ireland how many? And I wonder why...could it be the the years of sectarian violence? I will probably be slammed for even mentioning that yet SA constantly gets flushed for the same thing.
Point is Irish fans ought not to use the violence argument to dismiss SA, it kind of invites an examination of Ireland's recent and terrifying history. So, as I said, a decision on merit is welcome, not on stereotypical empty biases.

You're trolling, Gwlad.   This is the same discussion that arose on another thread topic started by an expert troller who posted the same topic on a dozen different rugby fora across the net in UK, Ireland, SA, NZ.

This particular topic is about Ireland's bid, not another country's bid.  You chose to enter it with consistent dismissals of Ireland as a suitable venue, and positing that any other location would be preferable.

You know full well that you're being argumentative for the sake of it.   And deliberately responding to other posters in a provocative tone in order to get a response.   But your view of Ireland as an appropriate bidder for the RWC will not change.   That is your singular opinion that you have expressed plenty of times in this topic.  You have added nothing new to add to this viewpoint.  Now you have a handy diversion in turning it into an argument about South Africa and crime.  

If you want to espouse South Africa as your preferred choice for being awarded the bid, then why not write a topic setting out your reasons why.  And unlike the previous poster on this topic, come up with reasons that aren't based on denigrating the other two bidders.

That's my opinion.  And in case you think you can now make an argument out of whether you're trolling or not, I'm not going to respond any further.  It's your call as to what you do. Edit: Including if you make follow-up asinine comments such as "cut and run".

Cut and run eh...makes sense

Based on concerns for safety I think I tis clear that the RWC bid for 2023 should be moved to another European nation.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/ireland-high-number-shootings-compared-9554855

Gwlad wrote:Based on concerns for safety I think I tis clear that the RWC bid for 2023 should be moved to another European nation.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/ireland-high-number-shootings-compared-9554855

 Somewhere like the Ukraine eh Gwlad??

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Based on concerns for safety I think I tis clear that the RWC bid for 2023 should be moved to another European nation.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/ireland-high-number-shootings-compared-9554855

 Somewhere like the Ukraine eh Gwlad??

Ukraine, sovereign nation and no requirement for the definite article. We don't call it The New Zealand do we.

Gwlad wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Based on concerns for safety I think I tis clear that the RWC bid for 2023 should be moved to another European nation.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/ireland-high-number-shootings-compared-9554855

 Somewhere like the Ukraine eh Gwlad??

Ukraine, sovereign nation and no requirement for the definite article. We don't call it The New Zealand do we.

 Little pedantic today Gwlad? Ever heard of sovereign nations like The Netherlands or The USA?

The Netherlands: meaning: a group of countries
The United States: meaning: a group of states

Gwlad wrote:In fact Marty since you love trotting out irrelevant stats...how many fans were mudered in SA RWC 1995, SA FIFA WC 2006 and SA Lions 2009?

 Wasnt an English guy murdered a couple of years ago heading out of the stadium after a Super rugby game by some gang of bandits?

Gwlad wrote:The Netherlands: meaning: a group of countries
The United States: meaning: a group of states

The Pedant

Good on ya mate

An English marine was kicked to death after a Sharks Rebels game.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/thug-jailed-kicking-royal-marine-5986900

Netherlands means the Low Countries which I guess you are technically correct means some form of grouping of countries although they are really provinces. Unlike wales which is just some backward swamp

Who decided to put a 'country' below sea level anyway? few more years of global warming and it will be a real swamp.

Gwlad wrote:Based on concerns for safety I think I tis clear that the RWC bid for 2023 should be moved to another European nation.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/ireland-high-number-shootings-compared-9554855

OECD ratings on safety:

Rank
Ireland 12/38.  Homicide rate is 0.8. (OECD average of 4.1)
South Africa  35/38. Homicide rate is 9.6,
United States 31/38.  homicide rate is 5.2.


http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/safety/

Gwlad wrote:Who decided to put a 'country' below sea level anyway? few more years of global warming and it will be a real swamp.

No it won't. While it is low lying, the Netherlands have reclaimed the sea with man made protection.

Sin é wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Based on concerns for safety I think I tis clear that the RWC bid for 2023 should be moved to another European nation.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/ireland-high-number-shootings-compared-9554855

OECD ratings on safety:

Rank
Ireland 12/38.  Homicide rate is 0.8. (OECD average of 4.1)
South Africa  35/38. Homicide rate is 9.6,
United States 31/38.  homicide rate is 5.2.


http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/safety/

Irish article, best take it up with them. Its clear however that Ireland is not as safe as every believes and with Brexit coming the concerns for a return to sectarian violence need to be considered. I am surprised Ireland hasn't hosted a single world class sporting event in the last 20 -3 0 year but then it has not been a particularly stable venue country. It still remains the case that hosting a RWC in The USA - a clearly dangerous country - would not be dismissed because of safety the way SA so there must be another reason at play.

Gwlad wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Based on concerns for safety I think I tis clear that the RWC bid for 2023 should be moved to another European nation.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/ireland-high-number-shootings-compared-9554855

OECD ratings on safety:

Rank
Ireland 12/38.  Homicide rate is 0.8. (OECD average of 4.1)
South Africa  35/38. Homicide rate is 9.6,
United States 31/38.  homicide rate is 5.2.


http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/safety/

Irish article, best take it up with them. Its clear however that Ireland is not as safe as every believes and with Brexit coming the concerns for a return to sectarian violence need to be considered. I am surprised Ireland hasn't hosted a single world class sporting event in the last 20 -3 0 year but then it has not been a particularly stable venue country. It still remains the case that hosting a RWC in The USA - a clearly dangerous country - would not be dismissed because of safety the way SA so there must be another reason at play.

K Club 2006

Oh so a Ryder cup in 2006. Hardly the same A 3 day event at 1 venue. SA has successfully hosted a RWC, A FA WC and a Lions tour.....sport's international bodies must take a different view on safety.

Gwlad wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Based on concerns for safety I think I tis clear that the RWC bid for 2023 should be moved to another European nation.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/ireland-high-number-shootings-compared-9554855

OECD ratings on safety:

Rank
Ireland 12/38.  Homicide rate is 0.8. (OECD average of 4.1)
South Africa  35/38. Homicide rate is 9.6,
United States 31/38.  homicide rate is 5.2.


http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/safety/

Irish article, best take it up with them. Its clear however that Ireland is not as safe as every believes and with Brexit coming the concerns for a return to sectarian violence need to be considered. I am surprised Ireland hasn't hosted a single world class sporting event in the last 20 -3 0 year but then it has not been a particularly stable venue country. It still remains the case that hosting a RWC in The USA - a clearly dangerous country - would not be dismissed because of safety the way SA so there must be another reason at play.

OECD stands for Organisation for Economic Co-Operation and Development and is an international organisation HQed in Paris. It certainly isn't an Irish article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_for_Economic_Co-operation_and_Development

Thanks, I never knew what the OECD stood for
While we're at it, the Fire Project was funded by the European Commission and coordinated by Transcrime in Italy

'Comparing Ireland to the other 27 EU states analysed, and based on population, the project ranked Ireland’s southern and eastern regions in the medium-high range for firearms seized and both regions as medium-high for deadly shootings.

It ranked the southern and eastern region as high for non-deadly shootings, while the Border, midland, and western region was medium-high.'

Gwlad wrote:Oh so a Ryder cup in 2006. Hardly the same  A 3 day event at 1 venue. SA has successfully hosted a RWC, A FA WC and a Lions tour.....sport's international bodies must take a different view on safety.

How about the Special Olympics in 2003. 7,000 athletes and their familes accommodated throughout the island of Ireland for 2 weeks.

Nelson Mandela opened it.

Great, interesting then that what I would describe as a Tier 1 event hasn't been held in Ireland, perhaps the security profile of such an event would have been too risky during Ireland's more recent history.

While it holds no appeal for me, I reiterate I am fully supportive of the bid on merit, I'd just like to see that and not some cynical attempt to paint SA as incapable of delivering a safe event despite suffering years of violence during which it hosted 3 tier 1 events, by comparison with Ireland painted by some as some totally safe and untroubled venue.

Gwlad wrote:Thanks, I never knew what the OECD stood for

You did claim that it was an Irish article. It wasn't.


While we're at it, the Fire Project was funded by the European Commission and coordinated by Transcrime in Italy

'Comparing Ireland to the other 27 EU states analysed, and based on population, the project ranked Ireland’s southern and eastern regions in the medium-high range for firearms seized and both regions as medium-high for deadly shootings.

It ranked the southern and eastern region as high for non-deadly shootings, while the Border, midland, and western region was medium-high.'[/quote]

So whats the comparison with South Africa? How does it compare to France?

Gwlad wrote:Great, interesting then that what I would describe as a Tier 1 event hasn't been held in Ireland, perhaps the security profile of such an event would have been too risky during Ireland's more recent history.

In fairness, there are not that many Tier 1 events as you call them take place. Events like the Olympics actually take place in cities anyway. That leaves just football and rugby world cup.

Still, looking after 7,000 athletes + their families from 150 countries is a major event.

While it holds no appeal for me, I reiterate I am fully supportive of the bid on merit, I'd just like to see that and not some cynical attempt to paint SA as incapable of delivering a safe event despite suffering years of violence during which it hosted 3 tier 1 events, by comparison with Ireland painted by some as some totally safe and untroubled venue.

Crime is an issue in South Africa. You are trying to brush it under the carpet. Richard Straus was interviewed recently where he says that he does not intend to return to SA (and most the Saffers now in the NH like William Nel) do not intend returning to SA because of the crime problem. He said they worry about their families the whole time back in SA.

Sin é wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Great, interesting then that what I would describe as a Tier 1 event hasn't been held in Ireland, perhaps the security profile of such an event would have been too risky during Ireland's more recent history.

In fairness, there are not that many Tier 1 events as you call them take place. Events like the Olympics actually take place in cities anyway. That leaves just football and rugby world cup.

Still, looking after 7,000 athletes + their families from 150 countries is a major event.

While it holds no appeal for me, I reiterate I am fully supportive of the bid on merit, I'd just like to see that and not some cynical attempt to paint SA as incapable of delivering a safe event despite suffering years of violence during which it hosted 3 tier 1 events, by comparison with Ireland painted by some as some totally safe and untroubled venue.

Crime is an issue in South Africa. You are trying to brush it under the carpet. Richard Straus was interviewed recently where he says that he does not intend to return to SA (and most the Saffers now in the NH like William Nel) do not intend returning to SA because of the crime problem. He said they worry about their families the whole time back in SA.

The article was in the Irish press inter alia.

Crime is an issue everywhere.

Crime and terrorism has been an issue in Ireland.

It's that being brushed under the carpet.

I hear that all the time about white S Africans not wanting to return to SA. Great shame and not my experience in months traveling there.
Perhaps it is to do with the disproportionate accumulation of wealth and land amongst the minority white population acquired through systemic government prejudice and legislated policies which are now being re examined.

There have been plenty of high profile international sporting events held at least in part in Ireland. Some of the bigger names include:

Ryder cup 2006
Uefa Cup Final 2011
British Open 2019
Special Olympics 2003
Muhammad Ali V Alvin Lewis 1972
Tour de France 1998
Rugby world cup 1991
Giro d'Italia 2014

Infrastructure, hotels, transport, organisation, stadia none of that would be an issue at all.

Gwlad wrote:

The article was in the Irish press inter alia.

Crime is an issue everywhere.

Crime and terrorism has been an issue in Ireland.

It's that being brushed under the carpet.

I hear that all the time about white S Africans not wanting to return to SA. Great shame and not my experience in months traveling there.
Perhaps it is to do with the disproportionate accumulation of wealth and land amongst the minority white population acquired through systemic government prejudice and legislated policies which are now being re examined.

Crime and terrorism are bigger issues in the UK and France recently. Didnt stop them holding the RWC.

There is a far greater chance of a terrorist attack in London or Paris than anywhere in Ireland at the moment.

You are talking through your hat Gwlad. Ireland is probably one of the safest countries in the world.

According to this study Ireland is ranked 16th safest country in the world ahead of France, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. All successful RWC hosts.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/safest-countries-to-live-in-the-world-a7415221.html

The Commonwealth Games federation had no option but to strip Natal of the 2022 Commonwealth games as the South African Government couldnt/wouldnt provide financial guarantees.

 I cant see this ANC Government providing any guarantees for a Rugby World Cup bid without  pulling the rug out from under everybodys feet at a later date. On the other hand the IrishRU appear to have got their house in order and put into place the Financial backing and general support of the Irish Government.

Terrorism has been a bigger issue in England in the last five years and they hosted the last RWC.

Guns - ironically - just beat me to it.

Gwlad wrote:

Crime and terrorism has been an issue in Ireland.

It's that being brushed under the carpet.

I hear that all the time about white S Africans not wanting to return to SA. Great shame and not my experience in months traveling there.
Perhaps it is to do with the disproportionate accumulation of wealth and land amongst the minority white population acquired through systemic government prejudice and legislated policies which are now being re examined.

You are talking about terrorism being a problem? Really?

The Good Friday Agreement was 19 years ago

SA had a problem with terrorism only a few years before they hosted, England has had problems with terrorism anytime they hosted

https://www.clements.com/resources/articles/Countries-with-the-Highest-and-Lowest-Crime-Rates

aucklandlaurie wrote:The Commonwealth Games federation had no option but to strip Natal of the 2022 Commonwealth games as the South African Government couldnt/wouldnt provide financial guarantees.

 I cant see this ANC Government providing any guarantees for a Rugby World Cup bid without  pulling the rug out from under everybodys feet at a later date. On the other hand the IrishRU appear to have got their house in order and put into place the Financial backing and general support of the Irish Government.

Laurie, they have the backing of two govts, well that's if Northern Ireland ever get a govt again