Aviva Premiership - Round 3

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Table

POS	TEAM	-PL-	-W-	-D-	-L-	-PF-	-PA-	-DIFF-	-TF-	-TA-	-TB-	-LB-	-PTS-
1	Saracens	2	2	0	0	69	16	53	9	1	2	0	10
2	Bath Rugby	2	2	0	0	76	19	57	8	3	1	0	9
3	Wasps	2	2	0	0	59	42	17	7	4	1	0	9
4	Northampton Saints	2	1	0	1	46	28	18	6	1	1	1	6
5	Sale Sharks	2	1	0	1	36	29	7	3	2	0	1	5
6	Leicester Tigers	2	1	0	1	60	65	-5	7	8	1	0	5
7	Harlequins	2	1	0	1	31	38	-7	3	4	0	0	4
8	Newcastle Falcons	2	1	0	1	24	75	-51	2	10	0	0	4
9	Gloucester Rugby	2	0	1	1	54	61	-7	6	8	1	1	4
10	Worcester Warriors	2	0	1	1	26	58	-32	3	6	0	0	2
11	Bristol Rugby	2	0	0	2	29	53	-24	4	6	0	1	1
12	Exeter Chiefs	2	0	0	2	33	59	-26	3	8	0	1	1

Fixtures

FRIDAY 16TH SEPTEMBER 2016

19:45 Sale v Gloucester BT Sport
The organised, but dare I say it slightly dull, Sale Sharks entertain the more mercurial but also much more dysfunctional Gloucester. Both teams had influential back rowers flattened by opponents subsequently receiving their marching orders last week. Sale especially would like skipper Beaumont to have passed the concussion protocols and be ready to play. In the end I suspect that Sale’s organisation and teamwork will win the day as they grind out a win.


SATURDAY 17TH SEPTEMBER 2016

15:00 Bath v Worcester
Having failed to score a try in Round 1, Bath ran in a whopping 8 in their crushing victory over Falcons in round 2. George Ford won the plaudits from opposing DoR Dean Richards, but special mention must be given to Max Clark, whose direct running and good hands allow time for the internationals either side of him. It is hard to say how well Bath played as by all accounts Falcons capitulated, but the tight 5 went well, back row better than expected and Fotuali’I looked a lot more like the 9 that Ospreys fans will remember (rather than Saints fans).
Worcester were perhaps unlucky to only draw last week, yet with the amount of mistakes made by Gloucester in that game they have only themselves to blame. They need players like Hougaard and Heem back. They need a better 10 than Ryan Lamb. With Bath’s back row still in disarray, even with Houston returning, someone is going to capitalise. Cannot see it being Worcester though.

15:00 Exeter v Harlequins
Having started the season with the worst two fixtures possible, last season’s runner up find themselves at the bottom of the table. Two defeats is not unexpected, but Rob Baxter will have been unhappy about the way the matches were lost and the number of tries conceded. Something is not quite working both in the pack and behind in the backs – but Baxter will be analysing everything in great detail to come up with an answer.
Quins fans are in despair. A squeaky win over new boys Bristol was followed by defeat away to Sale. That they lost in Salford is no surprise, but the manner of defeat with apparently a number of players looking almost disinterested is the main reason for the fans dissatisfaction. Travelling down to Devon is probably not the ideal trip – but maybe going as underdogs will allow Quins to relax and play their own game?
Exeter should, despite misfiring, have too much for Quins.

15:00 Saracens v Northampton BT Sport
Heavyweight clash in Barnet this week. George v Hartley, Mako v Brookes/Hill, Itoje v Lawes, Billy v Louis. Some contests to savour – but this match will be won by the collective not individuals. Sarries are slowly grinding their way into form, while pulverising opponents as they do it. Saints should not fold as Worcester and Exeter did but can they match the Allianz Juggernaut?
Having played poorly for most of the game in Round 1, their defence has largely stayed intact. Like their hosts just 1 try conceded in the two games so far is testament to their hard work. However can they create enough to truly scare Sarries? Gut feel is Saints will need the champions to be a touch off-colour if they are to get anything from this game.


SUNDAY 18TH SEPTEMBER 2016

14:30 Wasps v Bristol
Wasps host Bristol with two wins already under their belt. Dai Young will know that they are some way below their best so far but he will be pleased that the results are coming anyway. Last season they usually lost when not at their best.
Bristol are likely to make this a 3rd defeat in a row and despite showing early promise need to actually start getting results. Maybe next week.

15:00 Newcastle v Leicester BT Sport
Two teams who were happy after Round 1 and distraught after round 2. Two teams who need to play a lot better, show more application and dedication if they are to achieve their potential. Both sets of players should be truly embarrassed by their performances last week.

I'm slightly offended you haven't included us in the teams you're likely to stay above Yappy.

Sarries Saints was certainly tasty in parts.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sarries Saints was certainly tasty in parts.

Indeed it was but both sides lacked finesse. Nice physicality though. Wanted more from both. Didn't need to be a slugfest.

Turning point IMO George coming onto the pitch which obviously led to Waller being sin binned.

Waller also was involved in two other incidents.

Perhaps if he spent more time focusing on his rugby rather than trying to niggle the opposition he might have stayed on the pitch. On the citing incident He did headbutt George,it's just whether the citing commissioner believes there are mitigating circumstances. Real time looks worse than slowed down.

If a bite is a bite, a headbutt should be a headbutt.

On the Ashton-Waller incident, it looks like Ashton did indeed bite Waller so a ban is probably likely but then again Waller's hand should not be in Ashton's face, he should not be hitting Ashton in the face.

I'd probably ban both Waller and Ashton to be honest if we want consistency.

True, Live by the sword eh, you spend 60 odd minutes or so winding up the opposition then get wound up yourself and caught! Can't see Waller getting anything further to be honest.

George pulled Waller's head on to him, imo (TMO agreed, but Ref perhaps not but was persuaded). One of the angles showed that very clearly.

For consistency Wigglesworth should also have been binned, for his rabbit punch on Waller - though how the ref could deem that challenge by Waller to be fine I have no idea. A number of players hit Wigglesworth late before that - and I am sick and tired of players getting no protection for stuff like that. I know all sides do it (and Waller on George was retaliation for George's illegal actions), but it is one of two things that must be stamped out if we are to have a decent game.

The other was also prevalent in this game, and played a massive part in it being so scrappy. At breakdowns the two defensive lines were never onside. Saints always rushed up early, Sarries had a co-ordinated dance manoeuver whereby they turn and look as if they will go back but never move and even before the ball is out spin round and charge.

The other game I watched (Falcons/Tigers) was another with two teams never onside in the defencive line - though Tigers implementation was so poor (other than on the line) that Falcons should have scored a hatful of tries .

Anywhere to watch the Ashton incident

BamBam wrote:Anywhere to watch the Ashton incident

Impossible to tell much from the TV footage. There probably was a bite, and being Ashton he may well see a big ban.

BUT

Waller had him in a headlock and seemed to be trying to pull Ashton's head off.

http://sport.bt.com/video/dallaglio-ashton-clearly-has-case-to-answer-over-bite-91364097234715

Thanks LT, definitely looked like something made Waller remove his arm sharpish

http://sport.bt.com/video/have-you-ever-seen-a-more-freakish-try-than-this-91364097236993

When things just are not going your way.

LondonTiger wrote:

BamBam wrote:Anywhere to watch the Ashton incident

Impossible to tell much from the TV footage. There probably was a bite, and being Ashton he may well see a big ban.

BUT

Waller had him in a headlock and seemed to be trying to pull Ashton's head off.

http://sport.bt.com/video/dallaglio-ashton-clearly-has-case-to-answer-over-bite-91364097234715

As we saw with the Ferris/Hartley incident a bite plus reputation equals substantial ban irrelevant of the oppositions actions.

I didn't see the game but it sounded feisty which used to be par for the course from Saints. Perhaps they are trying to refind their physical edge up front.

There has been an edge to these games ever since the 2010 play-off semi when Sarries were accused of standing outside the Saints dressing room to sing their victory song.

Since then there have been a number of off-field issues/clashes and some very feisty on-field meetings.

LondonTiger wrote:George pulled Waller's head on to him, imo (TMO agreed, but Ref perhaps not but was persuaded). One of the angles showed that very clearly.

For consistency Wigglesworth should also have been binned, for his rabbit punch on Waller - though how the ref could deem that challenge by Waller to be fine I have no idea. A number of players hit Wigglesworth late before that - and I am sick and tired of players getting no protection for stuff like that. I know all sides do it (and Waller on George was retaliation for George's illegal actions), but it is one of two things that must be stamped out if we are to have a decent game.

The other was also prevalent in this game, and played a massive part in it being so scrappy. At breakdowns the two defensive lines were never onside. Saints always rushed up early, Sarries had a co-ordinated dance manoeuver whereby they turn and look as if they will go back but never move and even before the ball is out spin round and charge.

The other game I watched (Falcons/Tigers) was another with two teams never onside in the defencive line - though Tigers implementation was so poor (other than on the line) that Falcons should have scored a hatful of tries .

It's still a headbutt, just as a bite is still a bite despite Waller sticking his arm and hand in Ashton's face. Hence why I would punish both players.

Didn't see Wigglesworth rabbit punch Waller - maybe he did but then again Waller had taken out Wigglesworth late. Waller was involved in too many incidents.

George clearing out Waller is basically standard procedure these days. Now you could question whether it should be but many players do it. I guess you would argue so is cheap shots off the ball.

It's up to the ref to control the game better. Maybe Greg Garner should have sent Ashton and Waller to the bin during their scuffle to instill some authority.

Of course it takes two to tango. Both teams were involved in niggle.

Think a bite is a red no matter what to be fair. We'll see from the citing but as this isn't SANZAR Ashton will probably get a fairly lengthy ban. Seems more clear cut evidence than Hartley but stretching my memory he did admit to it?

beshocked wrote:
It's still a headbutt,

It may still be head on head contact - but not a headbutt if George wraps his arm around Waller's head and pulls his head towards him.

Times Team of the Week

Goode
Turner
Daly
James
Wade
Ford
Laidlaw
Vunipola
Burger
Houston
Hamilton
Gaskell
Aulika
Cowan-Dickie
Vunipola

Who picks that. Vunipola was struggling in the scrum against Brookes.

And before he says it, yes I know he was with Brits, but he was still struggling.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think a bite is a red no matter what to be fair. We'll see from the citing but as this isn't SANZAR Ashton will probably get a fairly lengthy ban. Seems more clear cut evidence than Hartley but stretching my memory he did admit to it?

Yeah he admitted it because it pretty obviously did happen but was a total non incident and he thought he'd get off for a minimal ban because the guy was fishooking him.

Its a pretty similar case here, where Ashton is reacting to ( or defending himself from) an illegal and dangerous act. The best he can hope for, if the "injured party" testifies he was bitten is a reduced ban because of provocation ...but even with that theres a hefty starting point and he has a pretty poor record for handbags (and getting repeatedly punched in the face).

The RFU generally play it pretty strict.

Gooseberry wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think a bite is a red no matter what to be fair. We'll see from the citing but as this isn't SANZAR Ashton will probably get a fairly lengthy ban. Seems more clear cut evidence than Hartley but stretching my memory he did admit to it?

Yeah he admitted it because it pretty obviously did happen but was a total non incident and he thought he'd get off for a minimal ban because the guy was fishooking him.

Its a pretty similar case here, where Ashton is reacting to ( or defending himself from) an illegal and dangerous act. The best he can hope for, if the "injured party" testifies he was bitten is a reduced ban because of provocation ...but even with that theres a hefty starting point and he has a pretty poor record for handbags (and getting repeatedly punched in the face).

Ashton could get a 24 week+ ban if its judged to be high end.

I don't buy that Waller shouldn't have put his hand where he did - biting is a vicious, childish and unnecessary act which has no place in normal society, let alone on a rugby pitch. Anybody attempting to defend his actions should be ashamed. Ashton will (rightly) receive a lengthy ban based on his past form. Eddie Jones was there and almost certainly saw enough to confirm that his decision was right - Ashton should be nowhere near the England set-up at any level.

I have defended Ashton in the past. But he's become an arrogant, ill-disciplined and petulant person. Its a shame because he has obvious talent.

It's seems he has taken the questions about his defending personally and has some how got confused and thinks he has to act the hard man. It's a shame as he's a talented player, just a bit dim it seems

carpet baboon wrote:It's seems he has taken the questions about his defending personally and has some how got confused and thinks he has to act the hard man. It's a shame as he's a talented player, just a bit dim it seems

Looking back at his time at Saints, Ashton was such a fine young man who could score tries by the bushel and only had that little splash about him. Saracens have somehow perverted this nice young fellow. What have they done?
What....have....they.....done?

doctor_grey wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:It's seems he has taken the questions about his defending personally and has some how got confused and thinks he has to act the hard man. It's a shame as he's a talented player, just a bit dim it seems

Looking back at his time at Saints, Ashton was such a fine young man who could score tries by the bushel and only had that little splash about him.  Saracens have somehow perverted this nice young fellow.  What have they done?
What....have....they.....done?

It's the money doc. It corrupts
But in all seriousness when at saints didn't he get involved In a few my dad's bigger than yours pushing and shoving bollix

Didn't Ashton get a ban for hair pulling whilst at Saints?

He's always been hot headed, having played union with some lads who predominantly play league that seems a standard league culture. On the pitch you have to be aggressive and in the face of the opposition (especially if you're not the biggest).

No, no no.  Something wicked this way comes.  At Saints, he could take a punch.  At Saints he was the Premiership Player of the Season for 2009–10.  

But now, at that 'team which shall not be named' he bites, he scratches. He gouges, he annoys.  Whilst I don't subscribe to evil possession of a man's actions or character, there is something.  Something not quite natural..........

It's their choice of Tea I hear, terrible after noon tea choices.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Didn't Ashton get a ban for hair pulling whilst at Saints?

He's always been hot headed, having played union with some lads who predominantly play league that seems a standard league culture. On the pitch you have to be aggressive and in the face of the opposition (especially if you're not the biggest).

Agree. His tackling technique has never been top notch, far too often he pulls either people's shirt or hair.... He brings players down however he can but not normally in a text book tackle.

Certainly his rugby league background has to have an influence.

Is it a coincidence that arguably the two most fiery and most unpopular Sarries players, Farrell Jr and Ashton both have rugby league backgrounds?

Neither are the brightest but you can't blame league for that.

beshocked wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Didn't Ashton get a ban for hair pulling whilst at Saints?

He's always been hot headed, having played union with some lads who predominantly play league that seems a standard league culture. On the pitch you have to be aggressive and in the face of the opposition (especially if you're not the biggest).

Agree. His tackling technique has never been top notch, far too often he pulls either people's shirt or hair.... He brings players down however he can but not normally in a text book tackle.

Certainly his rugby league background has to have an influence.

Is it a coincidence that arguably the two most fiery and most unpopular Sarries players, Farrell Jr and Ashton both have rugby league backgrounds?

Neither are the brightest but you can't blame league for that.

Can anyone say what ashton is like off the pitch?. As have met Farrel and he came across as a genuinely nice guy, on the pitch I thought he could get caught up in unnecessary rubbish, although recently he just seems to get on with playing. Is ashton a nice guy off the pitch but a bit of a consolador on it?

carpet baboon wrote:

beshocked wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Didn't Ashton get a ban for hair pulling whilst at Saints?

He's always been hot headed, having played union with some lads who predominantly play league that seems a standard league culture. On the pitch you have to be aggressive and in the face of the opposition (especially if you're not the biggest).

Agree. His tackling technique has never been top notch, far too often he pulls either people's shirt or hair.... He brings players down however he can but not normally in a text book tackle.

Certainly his rugby league background has to have an influence.

Is it a coincidence that arguably the two most fiery and most unpopular Sarries players, Farrell Jr and Ashton both have rugby league backgrounds?

Neither are the brightest but you can't blame league for that.

Can anyone say what ashton is like off the pitch?. As have met Farrel and he came across as a genuinely nice guy, on the pitch I thought he could get caught up in unnecessary rubbish, although recently he just seems to get on with playing. Is ashton a nice guy off the pitch but a bit of a consolador on it?

Well I know that both Ashton and Farrell have been involved in stupid off the field behaviour but you can make your own mind up. I am not going to elaborate. Anyway I am not a big fan of Farrell Jr.

beshocked wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

beshocked wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Didn't Ashton get a ban for hair pulling whilst at Saints?

He's always been hot headed, having played union with some lads who predominantly play league that seems a standard league culture. On the pitch you have to be aggressive and in the face of the opposition (especially if you're not the biggest).

Agree. His tackling technique has never been top notch, far too often he pulls either people's shirt or hair.... He brings players down however he can but not normally in a text book tackle.

Certainly his rugby league background has to have an influence.

Is it a coincidence that arguably the two most fiery and most unpopular Sarries players, Farrell Jr and Ashton both have rugby league backgrounds?

Neither are the brightest but you can't blame league for that.

Can anyone say what ashton is like off the pitch?. As have met Farrel and he came across as a genuinely nice guy, on the pitch I thought he could get caught up in unnecessary rubbish, although recently he just seems to get on with playing. Is ashton a nice guy off the pitch but a bit of a consolador on it?

Well I know that both Ashton and Farrell have been involved in stupid off the field behaviour but you can make your own mind up. I am not going to elaborate. Anyway I am not a big fan of Farrell Jr.

Cheers beshocked I was just going off a ten minute conversation with him.

carpet baboon wrote:

beshocked wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

beshocked wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Didn't Ashton get a ban for hair pulling whilst at Saints?

He's always been hot headed, having played union with some lads who predominantly play league that seems a standard league culture. On the pitch you have to be aggressive and in the face of the opposition (especially if you're not the biggest).

Agree. His tackling technique has never been top notch, far too often he pulls either people's shirt or hair.... He brings players down however he can but not normally in a text book tackle.

Certainly his rugby league background has to have an influence.

Is it a coincidence that arguably the two most fiery and most unpopular Sarries players, Farrell Jr and Ashton both have rugby league backgrounds?

Neither are the brightest but you can't blame league for that.

Can anyone say what ashton is like off the pitch?. As have met Farrel and he came across as a genuinely nice guy, on the pitch I thought he could get caught up in unnecessary rubbish, although recently he just seems to get on with playing. Is ashton a nice guy off the pitch but a bit of a consolador on it?

Well I know that both Ashton and Farrell have been involved in stupid off the field behaviour but you can make your own mind up. I am not going to elaborate. Anyway I am not a big fan of Farrell Jr.

Cheers beshocked I was just going off a ten minute conversation with him.

No worries, as I say, it's up to the individual to make their mind up. Nigel Wray is very much hated on these boards but I like Wray, I've talked to him and I think he's a nice bloke. Not everyone agrees.

Like with life in general there's certain people you like, certain people you don't.

I used to think Dallaglio was an arrogant so and so but after a chat with him - he seemed down to earth, very passionate about rugby in general and Wasps and was friendly. Changed my perception.

Coming back to the Ashton comments, if he is banned so be it. Needs to cut out the stupidity.

Met Farrell and Ashton. Quite liked Farrell, very self deprecating. Ashton seemed very shy and unsure of himself, where Faz was confident and at ease.

And I believe the most well known Ashton 'off the pitch' incident had very little to do with his actions and just another guy being an idiot.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/19616288

I met Rhino from Gladiators once. He tried to chat up my girlfriend, can't say I liked him.

Didn't realise that Ashton has been done for 2 counts of biting. Both in quick sucession so not sure if it's really the same incident or not.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37412220

Just gets hungry obviously

His hearing started at 6.30 and no word yet, so I am guessing that he has plead not guilty.

Ashton's always been a tw@t. Talented yes, but a tw@t. Bites, pulls hair, fingers in the eye. Self centred, immature to&&her. Still I expect he has a following of apologists, just wait a short while and one will be along.

Ozzy3213 wrote:His hearing started at 6.30 and no word yet, so I am guessing that he has plead not guilty.

Close examination of the tea and biscuits has to occur pre hearing then I'm sure there some post hearing deliberation cheese and port before coffee and chocolates with the decision.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:His hearing started at 6.30 and no word yet, so I am guessing that he has plead not guilty.

Close examination of the tea and biscuits has to occur pre hearing then I'm sure there some post hearing deliberation cheese and port before coffee and chocolates with the decision.

I hope he doesn't bite the hand that feeds him..........

Guilty of biting the first time, but not the second. 13 weeks out.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/09/21/saracens-winger-chris-ashton-gets-13-week-ban-for-biting/

Minimum ban for a guilty plea is 12 weeks.
Bearing in mind he pleaded not guilty & his previous bad record I think the Sarries lawyers must have been pleased with this sentence if not the verdict.

Noone can really have complaints with the outcome, they let him off on one of the cases (less evidence?). Had he plead contrition and lack of guilt etc he might've got away with less, although that had very little affect on Hartleys ban for a lesser incident with greater provocation.
I do feel the minimum sanction is a bit on the steep side for bites which unless they are targeting ears/nose/throat are highly unlikely to do any real damage and much less dangerous than punches/headbutts or gouging (presumably Ashton doesn't have rabies). Its nasty, niggly and socially unacceptable and shouldnt be happening but it is strange how many deliberate and considered strikes go unpunished whereas even a minor bite that does no harm receives a very substantial ban. Lower end eye contact bans max out at 12 weeks, and Ashton himself only got 10 weeks for doing that and somehow escaped sanction for repeatedly headbutting Manu's hands.

Its just one of those things that they dont want to see at all, which is fine, but I find it odd that its more harshly treated than gouging which has modern era examples of players being seriously injured by.

I am more annoyed that Waller got away with absolutely no punishment.

As for Ashton, can't complain.

I am surprised at 13 weeks considering his past.

no 7 & 1/2 what do you expect? Do you think that Ashton should be flogged and then hung before you'll be satisified?

You should just be pleased Ashton has been punished.

If minimum sanction for a guilty plea is 12 weeks. You plead not-guilty and are found to be guilty - I would expect a longer sanction than 13wks! I have no idea what is appropriate - but sounds like it should be more than an extra 1wk!

What's satisfaction got to do with my post? I was expecting a longer ban considering his past bans and this being a week longer than the minimum. I was pleased that the RFU cited him considering the mess SANZAR recently made with the whole process.

Here we go again....

If 12 weeks is the minimum, I agree that Ashton can count himself lucky, he has plenty of previous.

Seems a bit odd to only ban him 1 week longer than the minimum, hardly makes it worth being honest and pleading guilty.

As for Waller, I see players getting into little scuffles with headlocks etc every game I ever watch, how many bans should be handed out?