Wales thread continued - 2017/18 season

[mikey_dragon]

First topic message reminder :

2017/2018 season results (full fixture list posted below).

Wales 21 - 29 Australia
Wales 13 - 6 Georgia
Wales 18 - 33 New Zealand
Wales 24 - 22 South Africa

Wales 2018 6N Squad:
Forwards: Rob Evans (Scarlets), Wyn Jones (Scarlets), Nicky Smith (Ospreys), Scott Baldwin (Ospreys), Elliot Dee (Dragons), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Blues), Adam Beard (Ospreys), Bradley Davies (Ospreys), Seb Davies (Cardiff Blues), Cory Hill (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys, capt), James Davies (Scarlets), Taulupe Faletau (Bath), Ellis Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), Ross Moriarty (Gloucester), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Aaron Shingler (Scarlets), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys).

Backs: Aled Davies (Scarlets), Gareth Davies (Scarlets), Rhys Webb (Ospreys), Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), Dan Biggar (Ospreys), Rhys Patchell (Scarlets), Rhys Priestland (Bath), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Owen Watkin (Ospreys), Owen Williams (Gloucester), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Josh Adams (Worcester Warriors), Hallam Amos (Dragons), Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues), Steff Evans (Scarlets), Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets), George North (Northampton Saints), Liam Williams (Saracens).

Faletau, Biggar expected to be available later on in the tournament. Amos, L Williams perhaps a little sooner.

Call-ups to cover injuries, etc.
Tomos Williams (Cardiff Blues)

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


I thought we'd start with the Autumn series. Gatland the Great is set to return and shake things up after another disappointing season underneath the Howler and his pal McBryde. The fixtures for this series are as follows:

November 2017
Sat 11th Nov 17 17:15
Wales   v   Australia  
Sat 18th Nov 17 14:30
Wales   v   Georgia
Sat 25th Nov 17 17:15
Wales   v   New Zealand
December 2017
Sat 2nd Dec 17 14:30
Wales   v   South Africa

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well there's no time like now so why not. Last year was a bit disappointing, topped off with an unsuccessful tour to NZ (as expected). Whilst I'm hoping for better this season my expectations are low as we have Howler and some other amateurs in charge who got the job because they were mates with Gatland and others in the WRU.

AI's
Wales V Australia 05/11/2016
8 - 32
Wales V Argentina 12/11/2016
24 - 20
Wales V Japan 19/11/2016
33 - 30
Wales V South Africa 26/11/2016
27 - 13

6 Nations
Italy V Wales 05/02/2017
7 - 33
Wales V England 11/02/2017
16 - 21
Scotland V Wales 25/02/2017
29 - 13
Wales V Ireland 10/03/2017
22 - 9
France V Wales 18/03/2017
20 -18

Very tough AI series but a kind start in the 6N. So far this season Blues and Ospreys look good, but how many of their players will be starters for Wales? Cuthbert is starting to look like his old self and if this continues he could come back into the team. Tomos Williams looks like a good player and if he also continues in this vein then might he take advantage of Gareth Davies' supposed rustiness? It's still early days but going by what I've seen and the reports I've read I would like to see a new centre partnership and also perhaps see our old back 3 of North, Cuthbert and Halfpenny reinstated - although a lot could happen between now and November. With Faletau out I think we can all guess who the wildcards will be, but who does that leave to play at No.8 - possibly Warburton with Ellis Jenkins at 7? What changes (if any) would you like to see? Keep it sensible please.

WALES 2016 UNDER ARMOUR SERIES SQUAD
Prop Scott Andrews (Cardiff Blues) (12 Caps) Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs) (14 Caps) Rhys Gill (Cardiff Blues) (6 Caps) Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues) (126 Caps) Samson Lee (Scarlets) (28 Caps) Nicky Smith (Ospreys) (3 Caps)
Hooker Scott Baldwin (Ospreys) (24 Caps) Kristian Dacey (Cardiff Blues) (3 Caps) Ken Owens (Scarlets) (42 Caps)
Second Row Jake Ball (Scarlets) (20 Caps) Luke Charteris (Bath Rugby) (68 Caps) Bradley Davies (Ospreys) (56 Caps) Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys) (102 Caps) Rory Thornton (Ospreys) (UNCAPPED)
Back Row Dan Baker (Ospreys) (3 Caps) Taulupe Faletau* (Bath Rugby) (61 Caps) James King (Ospreys) (8 Caps) Dan Lydiate (Ospreys) (57 Caps) Ross Moriarty (Gloucester) (9 Caps) Justin Tipuric (Ospreys) (43 Caps) Sam Warburton (CAPT) (Cardiff Blues) (67 Caps)
Scrum Half Gareth Davies (Scarlets) (17 Caps) Rhys Webb (Ospreys) (22 Caps) Lloyd Williams (Cardiff Blues) (27 Caps)
Fly Half Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues) (8 Caps) Dan Biggar (Ospreys) (48 Caps) Sam Davies (Ospreys) (UNCAPPED)
Centre Jonathan Davies (Scarlets) (56 Caps) Tyler Morgan (Newport Gwent Dragons) (3 Caps) Jamie Roberts* (Harlequins) (83 Caps) Scott Williams (Scarlets) (38 Caps)
Wing/Full Back Hallam Amos (Newport Gwent Dragons) (10 Caps) Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues) (42 Caps) Leigh Halfpenny (Toulon) (62 Caps) George North* (Northampton Saints) (62 Caps) Liam Williams (Scarlets) (35 Caps) * Denotes Senior Player Selection Policy wildcard selection.
Ospreys wing Keelan Giles, Cardiff Blues full-back Rhun Williams and Dragons pair Leon Brown and Harrison Keddie will train with the Wales squad.  

June summer tour
Tonga 6 - 24 Wales
Samoa 17 - 19 Wales

[mikey_dragon]

What skill set?

[ScarletSpiderman]

What skill set?

Box kick!
Box Kick!!
BOX KICK!!!

[ScarletSpiderman]

Only changes I would make to that 23 would be on the bench Owen Williams to replace Gareth Anscombe, and Liam Williams to replace Owen Watkin. Then all the back positions are covered in case of injury, Sanjay isn't rushed back, and Anscombe is nowhere near a rugby ball.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Only changes I would make to that 23 would be on the bench Owen Williams to replace Gareth Anscombe, and Liam Williams to replace Owen Watkin.  Then all the back positions are covered in case of injury, Sanjay isn't rushed back, and Anscombe is nowhere near a rugby ball.

I have to say I was one of those people who thought Scotland would win, and I'm very happy to have been proved totally wrong. I didn't see that performance coming at all.

[Guest]

I agree with SS. Any returning former first choices (like Liam W) should make the bench and then hopefully they'll be busting a gut once they get on to show they should get the starting jersey back. We're not often in this position and sometimes have players picked who've done everything they can NOT to be picked (e.g. Cuthbert)! Let's give last week's players another chance - those in possession of the jersey - and let the injury returnees prove they should be first choice again.

On that note - is there anyone returning who we think should go straight back in to the team ahead of those who played against Scotland? If Biggar was fit would you chuck him straight back in? I wouldn't actually as I thought we were a lot more lively with Patchell at 10. If JD2 was fit would be put him back in over Scott W? I'd say yes to that. Liam W over Steff Evans or Josh Adams? Possbily, but a tough call. Faletau over Moriaty (at 8). Probably, but I liked Shingler at 6 and wouldn't want to displace him to make way for Moriaty moving across. I appreciate some of these are more hypothetical than others due to length of injury.

Good to have options, although i don't want to get carried away after 1 game. You know what we'll be like if/when they get trounced by England!

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Good point. Even after that win, we've got two horrible fixtures coming up.

[munkian]

Anscombe really is gash isn't he ?

If the WRU headhunted him for the Dragons and patachuted him into the International side then Cardiff fans would be losing their poopie.

[chris_501]

I would bring Sanjay in for Adams. He had a good debut, showed that he will be able to perform at this level, but with England's 10/12 axis, I would imagine there will be far more balls in the air, and Williams is class. I also love the confidence Stef Evans has, he provides a real attacking spark and although he makes the odd defensive error, his positives outweigh them.

The only other change I would make is to bring North back in on the bench instead of Watkin to cover centre/wing. Possibly Owen Williams instead of Anscombe.

[mikey_dragon]

Looks like most think the changes will come to the bench? I sort of agree with everyone, and we are in a good position with the squad right now (for a change!). Sanjay is class and has to come back into the squad but I still think that would be harsh on Watkin, who has been playing very well and hasn't put a foot wrong in his limited appearances for Wales - simply put he's another highly promising centre. Steff Evans yes he's a lot like Shane Williams in attack, hasn't been great in defence though. If you want that X-factor in the team then I guess he stays put.

I'd swap Owen Williams for Anscombe too. I don't dislike Anscombe but he's a fourth choice 10, 10/15 cover at best. Patchell could have a moment and OW can bring a calmness. What would be even better is if we had Webb, Biggar and JD2 on the bench...

[mikey_dragon]

What skill set?

Box kick!
Box Kick!!
BOX KICK!!!

Yeah box kick 2 metres or out on the full. I know I keep on but I can't see how he has a pro contract. It's detrimental to the career's of other No.9s.

[mikey_dragon]

It appears Liam Williams could be out for the whole tournament? I haven't seen any updates on his condition. Biggar and Faletau could be back for round 3 as far as I know.

[carpet baboon]

England looked a little weak on the wings in terms of defense. I would expect them to be better this week but I think youo lot can do serious damage against them down the flanks.
Your pack is a good match for England and think you can get the judge on them in the front row.
Should be a cracking game.

But could you draw the match 3 all please?

[SecretFly]

I'd prefer nil all................... that would at least make it a bit of a classic.

[lostinwales]

England looked a little weak on the wings in terms of defense. I would expect them to be better this week but I think youo lot can do serious damage against them down the flanks.
Your pack is a good match for England and think you can get the judge on them in the front row.
Should be a cracking game.

But could you draw the match 3 all please?

Paul Rendall retired ages ago.

We'll see, but you have to go back to when Adam Jones was playing to see the Welsh pack really putting England under pressure.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I'd prefer nil all................... that would at least make it a bit of a classic.

End-to-end stuff with some of the best try-saving tackles the world has ever seen.

[SecretFly]

I'd prefer nil all................... that would at least make it a bit of a classic.

End-to-end stuff with some of the best try-saving tackles the world has ever seen.

It would be one for the ages, Luckless. We've already had the maddest try scoring freak show of them all (so far) in that famous England/France game a while back...so why no the reverse, for posterity's sake.

[ScarletSpiderman]

I would bring Sanjay in for Adams. He had a good debut, showed that he will be able to perform at this level, but with England's 10/12 axis, I would imagine there will be far more balls in the air, and Williams is class. I also love the confidence Stef Evans has, he provides a real attacking spark and although he makes the odd defensive error, his positives outweigh them.

The only other change I would make is to bring North back in on the bench instead of Watkin to cover centre/wing. Possibly Owen Williams instead of Anscombe.

I’m a big fan of Steff, but if you’re gonna put Sanjay on for safety in the air, then I’d say drop Steff not Josh Adams. Steff seemed to ‘pull out’ of going up for one ball against Scotland. It may be he isn’t wanting to gamble on getting sent/banned again. If the Rnglush are going to pepper on winger, I’d say it’ll be him.

[Guest]

I'd prefer nil all................... that would at least make it a bit of a classic.

End-to-end stuff with some of the best try-saving tackles the world has ever seen.

It would be one for the ages, Luckless.  We've already had the maddest try scoring freak show of them all (so far) in that famous England/France game a while back...so why no the reverse, for posterity's sake.

And don't forget 'the game that just won't end' - France v Wales last year. A classic....... for the neutral. And for those with too much time on their hands!

[RiscaGame]

It appears Liam Williams could be out for the whole tournament? I haven't seen any updates on his condition. Biggar and Faletau could be back for round 3 as far as I know.

Williams and North took a full part in training today.

[mikey_dragon]

It appears Liam Williams could be out for the whole tournament? I haven't seen any updates on his condition. Biggar and Faletau could be back for round 3 as far as I know.

Williams and North took a full part in training today.

Well that's good news. I would have preferred if Faletau was back in training though.

[mikey_dragon]

I'd prefer nil all................... that would at least make it a bit of a classic.

End-to-end stuff with some of the best try-saving tackles the world has ever seen.

It would be one for the ages, Luckless.  We've already had the maddest try scoring freak show of them all (so far) in that famous England/France game a while back...so why no the reverse, for posterity's sake.

And don't forget 'the game that just won't end' - France v Wales last year. A classic....... for the neutral. And for those with too much time on their hands!

Good old France and their specialized doctors on the touchline, able to diagnose a head injury when nobody else managed to see it. France are a team I hope we stuff this year. And stuffing Italy is a given IMO, it would be good to see Wales rack up a few points in this year's tournament.

[Guest]

Nothing is a given, Mikey. Nothing! Seen too many upsets and disappointments over the years. I hope we get a good score against Italy too, but it’s just hope for now.

[mikey_dragon]

I think it'll go the way of the last 3 fixtures where we 'battered' them, although I can acknowledge the battering was to a much lesser extent last year for obvious reasons. I'd like Italy to get better but on the whole they don't have 23 players capable of it. Unless they find more Saffa's with Italian granny's I can't see how they'll improve? Their clubs are hopeless. Speaking of which I think it goes to show that Gatland has been coaching Wales for a while with one arm tied behind his back, given the state of our clubs over the years. I hope the Scarlets stay good and the other three get better. There's already been serious advancements in their strength and conditioning IMO, that's transferring over to the test arena.

[SecretFly]

I think it'll go the way of the last 3 fixtures where we 'battered' them, although I can acknowledge the battering was to a much lesser extent last year for obvious reasons. I'd like Italy to get better but on the whole they don't have 23 players capable of it. Unless they find more Saffa's with Italian granny's I can't see how they'll improve? Their clubs are hopeless. Speaking of which I think it goes to show that Gatland has been coaching Wales for a while with one arm tied behind his back, given the state of our clubs over the years. I hope the Scarlets stay good and the other three get better. There's already been serious advancements in their strength and conditioning IMO, that's transferring over to the test arena.

Fighting on three fronts... Pro14, Europe and International.  Welcome to the club, Mikey.  It's tough there though.  And you get heavily criticised for being no use to your 'domestic' competition coz all your good lads, that fans do be wanting to have selfies with, are being saved for Europe and International.

I wonder how all that pans out through the next few months.

[mikey_dragon]

I think it'll go the way of the last 3 fixtures where we 'battered' them, although I can acknowledge the battering was to a much lesser extent last year for obvious reasons. I'd like Italy to get better but on the whole they don't have 23 players capable of it. Unless they find more Saffa's with Italian granny's I can't see how they'll improve? Their clubs are hopeless. Speaking of which I think it goes to show that Gatland has been coaching Wales for a while with one arm tied behind his back, given the state of our clubs over the years. I hope the Scarlets stay good and the other three get better. There's already been serious advancements in their strength and conditioning IMO, that's transferring over to the test arena.

Fighting on three fronts... Pro14, Europe and International.  Welcome to the club, Mikey.  It's tough there though.  And you get heavily criticised for being no use to your 'domestic' competition coz all your good lads, that fans do be wanting to have selfies with, are being saved for Europe and International.

I wonder how all that pans out through the next few months.

Ain't that the truth. Not sure what else you're getting it but I've always felt that Ireland have it right with their focus being on the provincial teams feeding the national team. All 4 of them are very good, even Ulster although you wouldn't believe it when listening to their depressing supporters. Fact is they'll only get better with their incoming Leinster players .

I think Wales are starting to see the light and are shifting some focus to improving the regions. We'll know for sure if and only if Kiwi coaches are brought in to coach Ospreys and Blues.

[maestegmafia]

I think it'll go the way of the last 3 fixtures where we 'battered' them, although I can acknowledge the battering was to a much lesser extent last year for obvious reasons. I'd like Italy to get better but on the whole they don't have 23 players capable of it. Unless they find more Saffa's with Italian granny's I can't see how they'll improve? Their clubs are hopeless. Speaking of which I think it goes to show that Gatland has been coaching Wales for a while with one arm tied behind his back, given the state of our clubs over the years. I hope the Scarlets stay good and the other three get better. There's already been serious advancements in their strength and conditioning IMO, that's transferring over to the test arena.

Fighting on three fronts... Pro14, Europe and International.  Welcome to the club, Mikey.  It's tough there though.  And you get heavily criticised for being no use to your 'domestic' competition coz all your good lads, that fans do be wanting to have selfies with, are being saved for Europe and International.

I wonder how all that pans out through the next few months.

Ain't that the truth. Not sure what else you're getting it but I've always felt that Ireland have it right with their focus being on the provincial teams feeding the national team. All 4 of them are very good, even Ulster although you wouldn't believe it when listening to their depressing supporters. Fact is they'll only get better with their incoming Leinster players .

I think Wales are starting to see the light and are shifting some focus to improving the regions. We'll know for sure if and only if Kiwi coaches are brought in to coach Ospreys and Blues.

Who are the latest favourites to take over at the blues and the Ospreys?

[mikey_dragon]

Ex-Highlanders coach was mentioned for the Blues, not sure how much truth is in that. No idea about the Ospreys but I hope both get Kiwi's - they're the best and no Welsh coach is up to it.

[mikey_dragon]

Hill looked groggy going off, I didn’t know it was a HIA. I guess he might not make it either. Team announcement in a few hours for you guys. I’ll read as soon as I get up at 6am.

[ScarletSpiderman]

Ex-Highlanders coach was mentioned for the Blues, not sure how much truth is in that. No idea about the Ospreys but I hope both get Kiwi's - they're the best and no Welsh coach is up to it.

I thought he had gone to Saints, ruling himself out of the contention for the Welsh job.

[munkian]

So if Hill isn't fit (big loss after his latest efforts) Im guessing BBBD to start with Seb on the bench ?

[Poorfour]

England looked a little weak on the wings in terms of defense. I would expect them to be better this week but I think youo lot can do serious damage against them down the flanks.
Your pack is a good match for England and think you can get the judge on them in the front row.
Should be a cracking game.

But could you draw the match 3 all please?

Paul Rendall retired ages ago.

We'll see, but you have to go back to when Adam Jones was playing to see the Welsh pack really putting England under pressure.

And in the later years that was primarily because a certain ref never bothered to check his binding...

I was expecting the Scottish pack to get minced in the scrum on Saturday, so all credit to them that they managed it. England will be down a couple of their better scrummagers in Marler and Sinckler, but Cole was on form and Mako's scrummaging was more solid than it has been. Hepburn looked solid when he came on. If England have a weak point it will be Harry Williams' scrummaging - but the weather forecast for Saturday is cold but dry, so I am not expecting a game with a scrum every couple of minutes.

I think the forwards battle will probably be breakdown based (especially if Wales choose to keep the ball infield), where it could be interesting. Navidi in particular was a nuisance on Saturday, so England will need to be quick to the clearout. In the absence of Faletau, I imagine Simmonds might be asked to blast through the rucks like Haskell leaving Cole and Robshaw to focus on slowing Welsh ball down.

Then in the backline, England are more settled but showed a few weaknesses on Sunday, Wales gelled surprisingly well given how little they'd played together but weren't really put under that much pressure by Scotland. I would expect England to ask more questions, and not give away so many easy breaks; absent Billy and Hughes, they're not going to go through defences as much so they will have to go round. The challenge for both sides will be to draw the opposition into staying narrow while at the same time keeping their own width in defence.

[Guest]

England looked a little weak on the wings in terms of defense. I would expect them to be better this week but I think youo lot can do serious damage against them down the flanks.
Your pack is a good match for England and think you can get the judge on them in the front row.
Should be a cracking game.

But could you draw the match 3 all please?

Paul Rendall retired ages ago.

We'll see, but you have to go back to when Adam Jones was playing to see the Welsh pack really putting England under pressure.

And in the later years that was primarily because a certain ref never bothered to check his binding...

I was expecting the Scottish pack to get minced in the scrum on Saturday, so all credit to them that they managed it. England will be down a couple of their better scrummagers in Marler and Sinckler, but Cole was on form and Mako's scrummaging was more solid than it has been. Hepburn looked solid when he came on. If England have a weak point it will be Harry Williams' scrummaging - but the weather forecast for Saturday is cold but dry, so I am not expecting a game with a scrum every couple of minutes.

I think the forwards battle will probably be breakdown based (especially if Wales choose to keep the ball infield), where it could be interesting. Navidi in particular was a nuisance on Saturday, so England will need to be quick to the clearout. In the absence of Faletau, I imagine Simmonds might be asked to blast through the rucks like Haskell leaving Cole and Robshaw to focus on slowing Welsh ball down.

Then in the backline, England are more settled but showed a few weaknesses on Sunday, Wales gelled surprisingly well given how little they'd played together but weren't really put under that much pressure by Scotland. I would expect England to ask more questions, and not give away so many easy breaks; absent Billy and Hughes, they're not going to go through defences
as much so they will have to go round. The challenge for both sides will be to draw the opposition into staying narrow while at the same time keeping their own width in defence.

They've played together all season! It was the Scarlets back line, with Josh Adams thrown in on the wing!

[Poorfour]

They've played together all season!  It was the Scarlets back line, with Josh Adams thrown in on the wing!  

Fair point - but playing well at club level is one thing, playing well at international level is another. For a relatively new international backline, Wales adapted well - playing togther as Scarlets will probably have helped. Not having to get used to a different coloured shirt and all that... [ducks for cover]

It raises an interesting thought, though: to what extent did Saturday's game end up as essentially Scarlets vs Glasgow? You can certainly make a case that some of Scotland's play was more club than international standard. How much of a step up will it be to face a team where 16 or 17 of the 23 have been playing internationals under the same system for 2 years?

[Tramptastic]

A wee question for the welsh on this thread:

Why were Wales so much better on Saturday than anything they produced in the Autumn or in the last Six Nations?

Without trying to offend anyone, the Welsh were clinical and looked comfortable chucking the ball around in some well executed moves on Saturday - by comparison Wales in the autumn were disjointed and could hardly be called fluid

If it's a change in personnel i.e. picking the on form Scarlets en-mass, then does that suggest Gatlands team selection was forced upon him by injuries (Biggar, Roberts, Webb, North, Warbuton et al) and he may not have picked the Scarlets at all if the mentioned players had been injured?

Saturday hurt a lot and most of us in the Scotland thread have gone "what an incredible amount of egg on our faces". In retrospect it should have been obvious what the Scarlets players can do as they have been doing it all season but I don't think many of us thought Gatland/Howley would back a totally different style of play and player!

[BamBam]

Ex-Highlanders coach was mentioned for the Blues, not sure how much truth is in that. No idea about the Ospreys but I hope both get Kiwi's - they're the best and no Welsh coach is up to it.

I thought he had gone to Saints, ruling himself out of the contention for the Welsh job.

That was Chris Boyd, the Hurricanes coach

[munkian]

A wee question for the welsh on this thread:

Why were Wales so much better on Saturday than anything they produced in the Autumn or in the last Six Nations?

Without trying to offend anyone, the Welsh were clinical and looked comfortable chucking the ball around in some well executed moves on Saturday - by comparison Wales in the autumn were disjointed and could hardly be called fluid

If it's a change in personnel i.e. picking the on form Scarlets en-mass, then does that suggest Gatlands team selection was forced upon him by injuries (Biggar, Roberts, Webb, North, Warbuton et al) and he may not have picked the Scarlets at all if the mentioned players had been injured?

Saturday hurt a lot and most of us in the Scotland thread have gone "what an incredible amount of egg on our faces". In retrospect it should have been obvious what the Scarlets players can do as they have been doing it all season but I don't think many of us thought Gatland/Howley would back a totally different style of play and player!

Always takes time to adopt a new style of play, there were glimpses over the AIs but the opposition were much quicker and physical than Scotland. We also had different players.

I guess it was the perfect storm of us finally clicking and Scotland pooping the bed.

[Tramptastic]

A wee question for the welsh on this thread:

Why were Wales so much better on Saturday than anything they produced in the Autumn or in the last Six Nations?

Without trying to offend anyone, the Welsh were clinical and looked comfortable chucking the ball around in some well executed moves on Saturday - by comparison Wales in the autumn were disjointed and could hardly be called fluid

If it's a change in personnel i.e. picking the on form Scarlets en-mass, then does that suggest Gatlands team selection was forced upon him by injuries (Biggar, Roberts, Webb, North, Warbuton et al) and he may not have picked the Scarlets at all if the mentioned players had been injured?

Saturday hurt a lot and most of us in the Scotland thread have gone "what an incredible amount of egg on our faces". In retrospect it should have been obvious what the Scarlets players can do as they have been doing it all season but I don't think many of us thought Gatland/Howley would back a totally different style of play and player!

Always takes time to adopt a new style of play, there were glimpses over the AIs but the opposition were much quicker and physical than Scotland. We also had different players.

I guess it was the perfect storm of us finally clicking and Scotland pooping the bed.

It was more than pooping, it was a full blown case of the sh1ts

[munkian]

Russell needs Laidlaw to hit on the nose with a rolled up paper to calm him down.

Severe lack of leadership in that side.

[Guest]

A wee question for the welsh on this thread:

Why were Wales so much better on Saturday than anything they produced in the Autumn or in the last Six Nations?

Without trying to offend anyone, the Welsh were clinical and looked comfortable chucking the ball around in some well executed moves on Saturday - by comparison Wales in the autumn were disjointed and could hardly be called fluid

If it's a change in personnel i.e. picking the on form Scarlets en-mass, then does that suggest Gatlands team selection was forced upon him by injuries (Biggar, Roberts, Webb, North, Warbuton et al) and he may not have picked the Scarlets at all if the mentioned players had been injured?

Saturday hurt a lot and most of us in the Scotland thread have gone "what an incredible amount of egg on our faces". In retrospect it should have been obvious what the Scarlets players can do as they have been doing it all season but I don't think many of us thought Gatland/Howley would back a totally different style of play and player!

I've answered this elsewhere, but I honestly believe that Wales get up for/put more into the 6N than they do the AIs.  Which is why there seems to be no correlation between our AI form and 6 nations form.  In fact I think it's an inverse relationship!  In the years where we've won the 6N I bet we've done awful in the AIs.  Whereas for the last 3 AIs we've taken an SH scalp (albeit South Africa), which is success for us, but have been below par in the 6N.  Go figure!

I've called the AIs and summer tours 'friendlies', perhaps a little bit tongue in cheek.  But honestly I just don't feel the same vibe around Cardiff and in the stadium for the AIs as I do for the 6N, and other fans seem to feel the same way.  The atmosphere is muted.  The occasion seems less grand, even when it's the ABs in town.  So perhaps players do too and if that translates to a few % less on the pitch then that could explain the difference in performance from AIs to 6N. Maybe it's priorities?  Maybe Wales prioritise the 6N whereas Scotland prioritise the AIs?

[munkian]

AIs are warmups for the 6 nations, pretty meaningless apart from ranking points for world cup draws.

The pointless made up trophies dont help either.

[No 7&1/2]

Ha. Whatever you say to keep you happy!

[SecretFly]

AIs are warmups for the 6 nations, pretty meaningless apart from ranking points for world cup draws.

The pointless made up trophies dont help either.

well, as warmups for the most important yearly International contest in the NH, I wouldn't think 'meaningless' is a word that works for them. The trophies? - yes..... crap

[SecretFly]

I've called the AIs and summer tours 'friendlies', perhaps a little bit tongue in cheek.  But honestly I just don't feel the same vibe around Cardiff and in the stadium for the AIs as I do for the 6N, and other fans seem to feel the same way.  The atmosphere is muted.  The occasion seems less grand, even when it's the ABs in town.  So perhaps players do too and if that translates to a few % less on the pitch then that could explain the difference in performance from AIs to 6N. Maybe it's priorities?  Maybe Wales prioritise the 6N whereas Scotland prioritise the AIs?

Never forget that the 6N is a competition that spreads beyond the natural audience for rugby union. It's a time when rugby becomes the National preoccupation for many Nations, even ones where it isn't as dominant as let's say it is in Wales. So I find that when Six Nations comes around, everyone in my locality suddenly becomes an expert in rugby - but have never watched or read about a game all year. I heard one friend who never watches rugby and has no interest in Pro14 etc, mention that he's heard there is a 'new' guy with Ireland by the name of Larmour. 'They say he's good'.

Yes, they do...but for a whole year you'd never care - not until Six Nations.

So I think that's the difference Oracle. Six Nations is a festival that everyone wants to be part of and stadiums fill up accordingly. AIs are just more 'nerd' games. Most of the 6N crowd are just not interested.

[Guest]

I've called the AIs and summer tours 'friendlies', perhaps a little bit tongue in cheek.  But honestly I just don't feel the same vibe around Cardiff and in the stadium for the AIs as I do for the 6N, and other fans seem to feel the same way.  The atmosphere is muted.  The occasion seems less grand, even when it's the ABs in town.  So perhaps players do too and if that translates to a few % less on the pitch then that could explain the difference in performance from AIs to 6N. Maybe it's priorities?  Maybe Wales prioritise the 6N whereas Scotland prioritise the AIs?

Never forget that the 6N is a competition that spreads beyond the natural audience for rugby union.  It's a time when rugby becomes the National preoccupation for many Nations, even ones where it isn't as dominant as let's say it is in Wales.  So I find that when Six Nations comes around, everyone in my locality suddenly becomes an expert in rugby - but have never watched or read about a game all year.  I heard one friend who never watches rugby and has no interest in Pro14 etc, mention that he's heard there is a 'new' guy with Ireland by the name of Larmour.  'They say he's good'.

Yes, they do...but for a whole year you'd never care - not until Six Nations.

So I think that's the difference Oracle.  Six Nations is a festival that everyone wants to be part of and stadiums fill up accordingly.  AIs are just more 'nerd' games.  Most of the 6N crowd are just not interested.

But does that, or could that, extend to a set of players? In this case Wales? Are they less interested than, say, Scotland are in the AIs? And if so could this explain Wales' poor showing generally in the AIs. I think 'yes' to all of those questions!

[BamBam]

They are all called Test matches, you're effectively relegating your AI fixtures to second class opposition with these views. I'm sure our SH cousins would take a dim view of that

This isn't football, where we play "competitive" games against Andorra and the Faroe Islands, then play "friendlies" against other top teams but half the top players pick up mysterious injuries

Tier 1 Test matches are the highest level of rugby outside of the RWC, and should all be treated as such imo

[Scottrf]

Tier 1 Test matches are the highest level of rugby outside of the RWC, and should all be treated as such imo

6 Nations is. An AI against Samoa or Georgia isn't.

[TightHEAD]

Wales team
Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets); Josh Adams (Worcester), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Steff Evans (Scarlets); Rhys Patchell (Scarlets), Gareth Davies (Scarlets); Rob Evans (Scarlets), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Cory Hill (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys capt), Aaron Shingler (Scarlets), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Ross Moriarty (Gloucester).
Replacements: Elliot Dee (Dragons), Wyn Jones (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs), Bradley Davies (Ospreys), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Aled Davies (Scarlets), Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), George North (Northampton).

[SecretFly]

It's a year's rugby, and many things influence what teams play like on any given day in any given month.  I don't think it's so clear cut that Wales don't care so much for AIs but only prepare themselves for 6N.  I'm sure there is some truth in that - I'm sure the training regime for example, in the lead in to the Six Nations, is much more intense with Wales than in the lead in to AIs.

But still, I think it all depends on how players are - form wise, how Regional teams are fairing, mood, morale etc etc through an entire year.  It's the little things that build and build and inform the performance then of all the major sides when 6N comes around.

But yes, Welsh players obviously feel that 6N is a much more precious target than some AI wins.  But then I think all sides feel that - even Scotland.  All sides try to save their best for 6N, but ability is exposed when such a gruelling contest gets up and running.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

It's a year's rugby, and many things influence what teams play like on any given day in any given month.  I don't think it's so clear cut that Wales don't care so much for AIs but only prepare themselves for 6N.  I'm sure there is some truth in that - I'm sure the training regime for example, in the lead in to the Six Nations, is much more intense with Wales than in the lead in to AIs.

That's not the case. It can't be. Gatland's proved himself in the Six Nations - been there, done that. What he really wants - and knows he doesn't have - is recent wins against the Wallabies, and any wins at all against the All Blacks. Don't tell me a Kiwi's going to care more about beating Italy than about beating those two!

[Guest]

I'm not saying Wales don't care at all about the AIs. I just think the pressure and expectation is less - from the media, fans, etc. - and this might translate into caring ever so slightly less. And at this level that sort of drop off might translate into poorer performance.

As I posted elsewhere, I'm confident that if Australia were in the 6N then Wales would have beaten them more than we have in the recent past with that shocking record. I just think we'd have that extra % or two to get over the line that the 6N seems to give us.

Anyway, it's only 1 man and his theory!

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