England's Autumn selections

by kingelderfield Thu 15 Sep - 6:30

First topic message reminder :

Saturday 12th November
England vs South Africa
Twickenham

Saturday 19th November
England vs Fiji
Twickenham

Saturday 26th November
England vs Argentina
Twickenham

Saturday 3rd December
England vs Australia
Twickenham

Obviously we're not playing New Zealand, but it's the other 3/4 of the Rugby Championship plus Fiji for good measure.

So given form and fitness who's going to make our starting 15 / 23?

No Haskell, but we will have Hughes. Neither Farrell, Tuilagi and Brown have played yet and injuries are certain to intervene for others to lose out or benefit as happens.

by Geordie Wed 12 Oct - 23:49

lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Wade would certainly get tested physically v Fiji...put him in for that game. Up against that monster...Nadolo...but the mistakes might not quite be so costly....if he makes any!

Nadolo might struggle to tackle Wade too...

Yeah the jet ski v the tanker.....

by beshocked Wed 12 Oct - 23:51

Holding option for who though?

Someone has to play at 12. I guess I do see Mallinder as the saviour, the one who I believe will fix our problems at 12. At least I have the balls to admit it. Just as I thought that Itoje would be a decisive hit, I feel similar with Mallinder. It's yet again coaches holding the player back.

Maybe it's because I just don't see Slade as having the same potential as Mallinder.

I want to believe in Slade. I am yet to be convinced he is indeed the true saviour.

by Geordie Wed 12 Oct - 23:52

Banahan has to be an option whilst the contenders aren't all claiming the shirt.

He's had 2 MOTM performances on the trot in that position...and indeed that was a move MANY people said should have happened years ago. It would also add a lot of physical protection for Ford.

But in truth that would only be a stop gap.

Farrell, Slade are the two options in reality. Mallinder isn't ready at all yet and im not convinced Devoto is either.

by beshocked Wed 12 Oct - 23:54

It's funny isn't it Geordiefalcon?

Shoehorning a winger in at 12 or alternatively shoehorning one of two 10s into the 12 shirt.

Banahan could be an option indeed.

I guess it depends what you think we need.

I don't think a stop gap till Mallinder is ready is a bad thing.

by Gooseberry Thu 13 Oct - 0:01

No 7&1/2 wrote:You remember incorretly beshocked, at least after a season. I said that as a playmaking 12, which Lancaster and now eventually Joens seem to prefer he was the best holding option. Jones has gone with Farrell as (seemingly) the stop gap.

Im not convinced he does, he just recognises that England are short a good fit game breaker at 12 and that his first choice fly half ( Ford) is a bit "yippy" when it comes to kicks.

Farrell is more than adequate defensively, gives Ford the assurance to do what he does best, and can take the pressure of goal kicking.

That to me doesn't mean he would pick Mike Catt over Will Greenwood for example.

Slade would be the most readily available like for like option to replace Farrell, just with a bit more go forward and a bit less goal kicking and solidity (and hopefully fewer yellows).

But since that would still leave Ford as the primary goal kicker it may be that he takes the opportunity to try out a completely different type of inside center and add a new dimension to Englands attacking.
Early talk form Jones was about Tuillagi as a 12, and bringing guys like Teo into the frame suggests that he still has a lot of stock in the more traditional post 2007 England approach of picking big units with ridiculous names at 12 (Burgess excused on the name front).

That said the Ford Farrell combo was working and Slades been banging on the door for some time now so it would be far from a shocking selection if it were made.
I just dont think the type of player he wanst there long term is entirely clear, and hes a practical coach who will select from whats available adapting the side to that rather than picking someone regardless of form and quality just on type.

by ChequeredJersey Thu 13 Oct - 0:15

With a dearth of fit wingers too- Addison from Sale on the wing and kicking? Or would that kill Ford's confidence?

by Sgt_Pooly Thu 13 Oct - 0:16

You can't judge Barritt's form because Saracens have been winning. Barritt has looked average, there's been better performing centres. We need to move on from Barritt.

by Geordie Thu 13 Oct - 0:17

I don't have a problem with a stop gap so long as that person is:
a) Able to play in that position
and
b) in good form

Farrell is a key part of the side now.

a) He's a big defender,
b) Hes improved his handling etc,
c) He's a game controller,
d) He's the one who keeps your scoreboard ticking over...racking up points is crucial......
e) and most importantly...he is a leader...and has that "arrogance and real competitiveness" edge about him. He is driven to win...and isn't intimidated etc by anyone.

You need characters like that in your side.

by beshocked Thu 13 Oct - 0:41

Sgt Pooly if there aren't outstanding centres outperforming Barritt then Barritt inevitably moves back into contention.

it's not necessarily always about an individual player's performance, it's about how the team performs when a player is in there/ when he isn't. Barritt is the captain. Barritt will be more of a leader than Farrell Jr will ever be.

As good as Farrell is he's not really been missed by Saracens. Both England and Saracens must fall into the trap of bringing him back too early.

Geordiefalcon

a) he's fine
b) still work in progress
c) can vary
d) agree this is his biggest value.
e) Disagree. At Saracens he's way down the captain pecking order because he's not really a leader - the following would be ahead - Barritt,George,Goode,Itoje,Kruis,Billy,Brits,Wigglesworth, probably S.Burger..... All better role models. Even S.Burger who I hear is very down to earth and hard working despite his bad rep for gouging.

Probably the only first team player he'd definitely be above would be Ashton..... in terms of captaincy. Most of those guys have actually been Sarries captain.

It's actually quite laughable that Eddie Jones made him VC but Jones likes his edgy players.

by Gooseberry Thu 13 Oct - 0:56

Oh wait Farrells going to be fit for the England games? Well he plays then surely?

Is this even a question?

by beshocked Thu 13 Oct - 1:04

Wouldn't surprise me if the following happens:

Saracens rush Farrell back to face Toulon, Farrell gets injured and misses AIs.

I've seen Saracens and England unnecessarily rush Farrell back a few times before/pick him when he's still injured and it's backfired. Could happen again.

Did this Munster when Hodgson was MOTM the previous game - loss.
Did this vs Toulon in the ERCC final - loss
England picked a crocked Farrell in 2014 AIs leading to lacklustre performances.

by BamBam Thu 13 Oct - 1:05

Hasn't he been in full training for a while?

by beshocked Thu 13 Oct - 1:16

He's had serious issues with his kicking. It's not a new problem. He's had niggles in quite a few games.

I doubt he's fully fit.

Bear in mind that sometimes when players play they might be on the pitch but doesn't mean they are completely fit.

Sometimes player welfare is ignored by either the coach/the player themselves or both.

Farrell Jr is a competitive lad who I am sure just wants to get back on the rugby field. Doesn't mean he's ready though to come back.

Of course we don't have all the details but from what we know/don't I doubt he's ready.

by Sgt_Pooly Thu 13 Oct - 1:27

We need to move on from Barritt, he's not good enough. Theres plenty of viable options who actually offer something apart from defence. EJ hasn't looked to involve him so far, let's hope this continues.

by BamBam Thu 13 Oct - 1:33

I think the key is gameplan

Whats been working for us is the second playmaking option outside Ford, when we've gone another way with Burrell there its just gone to pot

If Barritt was a similar type of centre to Farrell, even with his past performances I would be more inclined to have him in as a stop gap

As he's not even close to being the same player, it seems silly to add to the disruption already caused by Farrell's absence by changing the game plan to accommodate a player we already know isn't the future

Slade "might" be the future 12, and is probably the closest to Farrell in style, why not just give him a go

Hopefully Faz is fit and we won't need to find out

by beshocked Thu 13 Oct - 1:40

Sgt_Pooly wrote:We need to move on from Barritt, he's not good enough. Theres plenty of viable options who actually offer something apart from defence. EJ hasn't looked to involve him so far, let's hope this continues.

Viable options? Most of the options you suggested aren't good enough. I mean Devoto and T'eo seriously? Come on.... It's doubtful whether they are good enough club players let alone even being in England contention.

Bambam and yet Barritt is a better 12 than Farrell and consistently picked ahead of him at their club.

Farrell isn't the future either.

Is it really the 2nd playmaker that's made the difference? You seriously think that's why England is winning now? If that was the case why on earth didn't England get the GS in 2014 or win the RWC with Ford and Farrell both in the backline?

Look if you want to pick a crocked Farrell then fair enough. I am not sure it's a risk worth taking. That's the current state of affairs, maybe Farrell will be fine but maybe he won't.

by Sgt_Pooly Thu 13 Oct - 2:15

Why does it have to be Barritt for God's sake? Your Sarries bias shining through yet again.....

Open your eyes, theres other teams in the AP. Slade, Devoto, Te'o have looked good this seasin and all offer more than Barritt.

by beshocked Thu 13 Oct - 2:35

Sgt Pooly learn to read seriously - if there were some decent alternatives then I wouldn't even be mentioning Barritt.

If you hadn't noticed England are struggling at inside centre as they have for years.

It might come down to picking an unfit Farrell or an unproven Slade - neither feel me with confidence.

Maybe Slade is worth the risk.

My first choice ideally would be Mallinder but he's not getting enough game time.

It's not Sarries bias, to suggest that an actual proven international/multiple silverware winner is a better centre than two overrated centres.

T'eo and Devoto both are worse than Barritt. To even suggest that either is as good is just deluded. It's that sort of deluded talk that made me leave your crazy fantasy league where bad players were good and good players were bad.

Devoto is the nearly man who hasn't made the step up at club level let alone any other level. T'eo is the overrated unproven journeyman bizarrely fast tracked by Jones.

It's not because Barritt is a Saracens player. He's just better.

I rate Robson higher than Wigglesworth. Watson above Ashton (shock horror), believe Ford has overtaken Farrell as the no 1 10 for England. Robshaw is a better backrower than Fraser etc.

The only way that T'eo and Devoto can persuade me that they actually deserve to be in the England squad is by performing.

by Fluxy Thu 13 Oct - 2:43

beshocked wrote:Bambam and yet Barritt is a better 12 than Farrell and consistently picked ahead of him at their club.

I actually rate Farrell as a much better 12 than Barritt, but would not say Barritt is automatically a better 12 because that is where his club plays him.
Who is to say that McCall's plan for when Farrell is fit, to play Lozowski/Farrell? The form of Alex warrants the thought of that idea. It may go against Sarries logic, but you could perhaps gain an all court game with that combo.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 13 Oct - 2:43

beshocked wrote:Holding option for who though?

Someone has to play at 12. I guess I do see Mallinder as the saviour, the one who I believe will fix our problems at 12. At least I have the balls to admit it. Just as I thought that Itoje would be a decisive hit, I feel similar with Mallinder. It's yet again coaches holding the player back.

Maybe it's because I just don't see Slade as having the same potential as Mallinder.

I want to believe in Slade. I am yet to be convinced he is indeed the true saviour.

I think once Slade gets a chance it'll be a long time before he's not involved with England again be that at 10 12 or 13. I'm yet to see anyone who doesn't think Itoje is going to be special given a bit of luck or Mallinder too bgeing heavily involved. Mallinder is still raw for me and no reason to risk rushing him and setting him back. Maybe by the 6Ns he'll be showing the consistecy a bit of experience brings. For the record then are the AIs that mix that they mean little enough/ easy enough opposition for debuts (do you play debutants vs Fiji alone before dropping?) too easy learn nothing (like Wales in June this year)?

Also should Jones be building experince of depth more as you were critical that we didn't have experienced 3rd choices under Lancaster?

by No 7&1/2 Thu 13 Oct - 2:44

GeordieFalcon wrote:Banahan has to be an option whilst the contenders aren't all claiming the shirt.

He's had 2 MOTM performances on the trot in that position...and indeed that was a move MANY people said should have happened years ago. It would also add a lot of physical protection for Ford.

But in truth that would only be a stop gap.

Farrell, Slade are the two options in reality. Mallinder isn't ready at all yet and im not convinced Devoto is either.

I was taking the mick.. are you serious?

by BamBam Thu 13 Oct - 2:47

Touting Mallinder over Slade seems a bit odd as they are both essentially unproven players, but Slade has at least had the big game experience in the Aviva/ERCC, Mallinder is still a baby

I'd rather go with the mindset that our system is the strength, and players with similar skillsets should be able to slot in - i.e. Slade for Farrell

I'd prefer not to tear up the plan to get Barritt in when we know he isn't the long term guy, I'd rather take a bet on the one who MIGHT be in Slade

by No 7&1/2 Thu 13 Oct - 2:50

Gooseberry wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You remember incorretly beshocked, at least after a season. I said that as a playmaking 12, which Lancaster and now eventually Joens seem to prefer he was the best holding option. Jones has gone with Farrell as (seemingly) the stop gap.

Im not convinced he does, he just recognises that England are short a good fit game breaker at 12 and that his first choice fly half ( Ford) is a bit "yippy" when it comes to kicks.

Farrell is more than adequate defensively, gives Ford the assurance to do what he does best, and can take the pressure of goal kicking.

That to me doesn't mean he would pick Mike Catt over Will Greenwood for example.

Slade would be the most readily available like for like option to replace Farrell, just with a bit more go forward and a bit less goal kicking and solidity (and hopefully fewer yellows).

But since that would still leave Ford as the primary goal kicker it may be that he takes the opportunity to try out a completely different type of inside center and add a new dimension to Englands attacking.
Early talk form Jones was about Tuillagi as a 12, and bringing guys like Teo into the frame suggests that he still has a lot of stock in the more traditional post 2007 England approach of picking big units with ridiculous names at 12 (Burgess excused on the name front).

That said the Ford Farrell combo was working and Slades been banging on the door for some time now so it would be far from a shocking selection if it were made.
I just dont think the type of player he wanst there long term is entirely clear, and hes a practical coach who will select from whats available adapting the side to that rather than picking someone regardless of form and quality just on type.

He probably doesn't your right, just likes to keep pretending I said he was the 2nd coming. Kicking is the question, Farrell is our best current option but take that away (and I know an answer would be why would you do that as its intrinsically part of his performance)was he great at 12 or even very good?

by No 7&1/2 Thu 13 Oct - 2:54

BamBam wrote:Touting Mallinder over Slade seems a bit odd as they are both essentially unproven players, but Slade has at least had the big game experience in the Aviva/ERCC, Mallinder is still a baby

I'd rather go with the mindset that our system is the strength, and players with similar skillsets should be able to slot in - i.e. Slade for Farrell

I'd prefer not to tear up the plan to get Barritt in when we know he isn't the long term guy, I'd rather take a bet on the one who MIGHT be in Slade

He didn't play well vs Saracens in the prem final after a remarkable recovery from a serious injury, hence doesn't deserve a chance ahead of Mallinder and Barritt.

by Fluxy Thu 13 Oct - 3:01

BamBam wrote:Touting Mallinder over Slade seems a bit odd as they are both essentially unproven players, but Slade has at least had the big game experience in the Aviva/ERCC, Mallinder is still a baby

I'd rather go with the mindset that our system is the strength, and players with similar skillsets should be able to slot in - i.e. Slade for Farrell

I'd prefer not to tear up the plan to get Barritt in when we know he isn't the long term guy, I'd rather take a bet on the one who MIGHT be in Slade

+1

by Sgt_Pooly Thu 13 Oct - 3:02

I've seen nothing this season to suggest Barritt is a currently s better player than Slade, Devoto or Te'o.

Nothing deluded, I just watch other teams and I'm an unbiased fan.

I love how when you start losing an argument you start reverting to personal insults, theres really no need.

by beshocked Thu 13 Oct - 3:03

Fluxy Barritt is the Saracens captain, he's been pretty much undroppable. Barritt at 12 has not hampered the team's try scoring noticeably. His strength comes from his defensive qualities and his ability to lead. You take that away and I am sure Sarries defence wouldn't be as potent. Sarries also use their defence as a way to attack as it forces the opposition into errors which of course makes the counter more effective. Barritt is obviously at the heart of this.

Having Barritt at 12 for Saracens hugely helps Lozowski. Against Exeter, Barritt made 21 tackles.

Farrell has not been missed. Lozowski has slotted into the Sarries machine, he's not been perfect but having experienced operators both in the pack and backline helps.

Farrell's biggest value will always be his goal kicking but if that goes then his stock goes down.

no 7 & 1/2 you are just one of a few posters who has had to back track on Itoje, from being a critic of Itoje to belating jumping on the bandwagon after it's been rolling for a while. Now pretending that you were always a fan.....

Mallinder has had barely any scrap of gametime. Of course it's logical he shouldn't play for England just yet.

Sgt Pooly of course I've lost the argument because I think a stupid comment is a stupid comment...

Of course it's bias to think that two players - Devoto and T'eo who have barely done anything of note in the AP are worse....

To be fair Slade's debatable - Devoto and T'eo isn't.

Slade has at least shown a glimmer of potential and could well feature in the AIs. Devoto and T'eo though are very lucky indeed.

I wonder if you actually know what a good rugby player looks like.

Remember when you thought one of your Newcastle players was as good as Itoje - now that's delusion of the highest order.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 13 Oct - 3:18

What do you mean by being a critic? You can't hide past comments on here.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 13 Oct - 3:19

You mean I would have chosen Launchbury over him if fit in the 6Ns?

by No 7&1/2 Thu 13 Oct - 3:22

And that last sentence beshocked...you still not get the joke?

by Sgt_Pooly Thu 13 Oct - 3:26

Theres really very little point discussing rugby with you BS.

by king_carlos Thu 13 Oct - 3:29

If Farrell isn't fit to go then the other question is whether EJ would trust Ford as his primary goal kicker. Personally I don't think he will which could give Slade a boost - I know he isn't kicking for Chiefs with Steenson starting but he is still the better goal kicker.

Slade would also fit into Gustards rock solid defence given how strong a tackler he is, if less aggressive than Faz.

Beshocked - No one (at least no-one worth listening to) has questioned Barritts defence as a 12. The issue remains that he doesn't offer enough in attack to be an international centre.

- His carrying is average and he has little to no offloading game. At club level he can be used behind a dominant pack as a release for his 10 to get over the gainline from first phase but at international level he needs more than that if he's used as a crash ball runner.

- His distribution off his right hand is dependable but he often gives passes early or hangs deeper than needed to buy himself time. Off his left hand his passing is poor.

- His kicking game has a bit more too it going forward (chips, grubbers, etc) than most realise to be fair. However as a clearing option for exits (when a kicking 12 is most valuable IMO) he lacks the range to be effective.

Excellent defender, club player and leader as you say. He isn't a high class international 12 though.

by beshocked Thu 13 Oct - 3:36

Same with you Sgt Poorly. You think poor players are decent players.

no 7 & 1/2 You would have picked a crocked Launchbury over Itoje - yes. A fully fit Launchbury is an asset, Launchbury was clearly not fully fit in the 6 nations. Kind of helps reassert my point about avoiding picking not fully fit players like Launchbury and Farrell Jr even if they might seem like good options.

Sadly coaches do occasionally play those who aren't quite back up to full fitness and generally it backfires. Happened to Dan Carter in the ERCC final this year too.

If Farrell and Hartley aren't fully fit, England should not risk either. Just leave them out of the AIs all together IMO.

Bambam I am touting Mallinder as the better prospect out of Slade and Mallinder but agree that Slade is further in development.

I am still unconvinced by Slade but maybe you are right. Maybe Slade needs the AIs to prove doubters like me wrong.

King carlos to be fair I completely agree. As I've said before I am only mentioning Barritt because of the current 12 situation. If Farrell is fully fit or Slade has a good AIs then it's not an issue.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 13 Oct - 3:43

No, like I said repeatedly at the time, if fit I would have chosen Launchbury. Maybe you need to take care to read what people say rather than what you think they're going to say?

by Gooseberry Thu 13 Oct - 5:38

beshocked wrote:Wouldn't surprise me if the following happens:

Saracens rush Farrell back to face Toulon, Farrell gets injured and misses AIs.

I've seen Saracens and England unnecessarily rush Farrell back a few times before/pick him when he's still injured and it's backfired. Could happen again.

Did this Munster when Hodgson was MOTM the previous game - loss.
Did this vs Toulon in the ERCC final - loss
England picked a crocked Farrell in 2014 AIs leading to lacklustre performances.

They could demad he sits out the game and go to judo class i guess

by Sgt_Pooly Thu 13 Oct - 6:01

Devoto, Slade and Te'o are not poor players BS, they just don't play for Saracens.

by kingelderfield Thu 13 Oct - 7:13

Curve ball.....

Did anyone see Farrell's performance at Old Trafford last Saturday? Very impressive.

I've always liked the look of Slade and really hope he can find his pre-injury form. However my point is I just don't see him as a 12.....which concerns me....as I've always thought of him as a 13 or even, and I'm quite keen on this, as Brown's full back replacement. So why not a 12?

Of course there is the fear we'll be too lateral, but I just don't know....I need to think more on this, but ultimately it will just come down to trying it out.

Now sadly back to reality, as I actually do think that EJ will disappoint us and pick some duffer or other, and I'm not referring to BB.

Some time later.....

Ok then go with Slade and go with a 6 / 2 bench split

Youngs
Wade
Ford
Slade
Joseph
Roko
Brown

Simpson
Cipriani

We can then play an extra nasty big bloody awful pack to smash um with and a bench or replacements to smash um some more!

Bench;

Props x 2
Hooker
Lawes
Hughes
Morgan

by yappysnap Thu 13 Oct - 7:49

I've missed these debates

by Sgt_Pooly Thu 13 Oct - 18:12

yappysnap wrote:I've missed these debates

Yea it great fun trying to teach people that there's actually rugby played outside of NW4.

by munkian Thu 13 Oct - 18:15

yappysnap wrote:I've missed these debates

Every one is poopie apart from Saracens ?

by yappysnap Thu 13 Oct - 18:50

Yep to both, it's been too placid and agreeable on here

by Gooseberry Thu 13 Oct - 18:57

To be fair if those players were any good then Saracens would've broken the cap to sign them

by munkian Thu 13 Oct - 18:59

Gooseberry wrote:To be fair if those players were any good then Saracens would've broken the cap to sign them

by beshocked Thu 13 Oct - 19:04

no 7 & 1/2 Launchbury wasn't fit though. Every man and their dog should have been able to see that.

Of course Sgt Poorly we should all rate an overrated journeyman like T'eo and a nearly man like Devoto who cannot yet establish himself as a starter at Exeter. Both are of course great choices for England who aspire to beat NZ.....

A player can change perceptions,big performances needed from both players though.

As for Slade, I wish him the best and hope it works.

yappysnap and munkian sigh Of course I rate players from other clubs. They have to be good though.

No not everyone is poopie.

Then again not every player is good either, hence why some clubs perform better than others.

by Sgt_Pooly Thu 13 Oct - 19:04

Gooseberry wrote:To be fair if those players were any good then Saracens would've further broken the cap to sign them

by yappysnap Thu 13 Oct - 19:28

On a side note. I've just rewatched the SAvNZ game, if you somehow didn't know SA lost by a record amount 57-15 9 tries to nothing.

They actually looked very combative and powerful for about 40 mins, but as soon as NZ got in the lead they just folded.

Even earlier in the game though when they were leading through Steyns boot they looked very one dimensional and limited, kicked the ball too much and barely tried to run it.

Fingers crossed this is the SA that turn up at Twickenham and not the other one that steamrollers us and has beaten us every time for the last decade.

by beshocked Thu 13 Oct - 19:40

SGt Pooly If in doubt blame the salary cap for your own club’s failings….as usual…

Whether Saracens broke the cap or not, it still doesn't make T'eo or Devoto good enough to warrant being in the England squad.

Yappysnap it's about time England beat SA.

by BamBam Thu 13 Oct - 19:48

Yes, its a failing of Newcastle and all the others to not follow the example of dear old Nige and Bruce by ignoring the rules Rolling Eyes

Just been reading Itoje talking about playing at 7, nothing fazes the lad

I reckon we can make a mess of the Saffa breakdown if they persist with playing the useless Mohoje at blindside, just leaves too much work for Louw and whoever plays 8

by Sgt_Pooly Thu 13 Oct - 19:57

beshocked wrote:SGt Pooly If in doubt blame the salary cap for your own club’s failings….as usual…

Whether Saracens broke the cap or not, it still doesn't make T'eo or Devoto good enough to warrant being in the England squad.

Yappysnap it's about time England beat SA.

I've not mentioned anything about Falcons and their failings, it's completely irrelevant.

Perhaps if you watched other sides you'd see that there's players performing week in week out that are not Saracens players.

It really is pointless debating with you, your rugby knowledge is too insular.

by beshocked Thu 13 Oct - 20:08

Bambam Failing of Newcastle is not down to either Nige or Bruce.

Can't even accuse either of poaching Newcastle players. If anything Newcastle have had more players coming from Saracens than the other way round in recent years- the likes of Saull,Powell and Cato.

it's why I went on about Itoje for such a long time. It's taken a while but others now agree that Itoje is a very good player indeed.

Sgt Pooly my rugby knowledge is not insular - you just ignore my positive comments about players from other clubs like my continuing championing of Mallinder, my praise for Robson, saying Cipriani was unlucky to be overlooked for Lozowski. I would have been happy to see what the likes of Sam Jones or Mike Williams could do if they were fit. Banahan has been playing well.

I do watch other sides. I just don't praise overrated players, sorry.

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