England's Autumn selections

First topic message reminder :

Saturday 12th November
England vs South Africa
Twickenham

Saturday 19th November
England vs Fiji
Twickenham

Saturday 26th November
England vs Argentina
Twickenham

Saturday 3rd December
England vs Australia
Twickenham

Obviously we're not playing New Zealand, but it's the other 3/4 of the Rugby Championship plus Fiji for good measure.

So given form and fitness who's going to make our starting 15 / 23?

No Haskell, but we will have Hughes. Neither Farrell, Tuilagi and Brown have played yet and injuries are certain to intervene for others to lose out or benefit as happens.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 Launchbury wasn't fit though. Every man and their dog should have been able to see that.

Of course Sgt Poorly we should all rate an overrated journeyman like T'eo and a nearly man like Devoto who cannot yet establish himself as a starter at Exeter. Both are of course great choices for England who aspire to beat NZ.....

A player can change perceptions,big performances needed from both players though.

As for Slade, I wish him the best and hope it works.

yappysnap and munkian sigh Of course I rate players from other clubs. They have to be good though.

No not everyone is poopie.

Then again not every player is good either, hence why some clubs perform better than others.

At the time we were discussing it no one knew whether he was fit or not, hence if he was fit I would have picked him. You thought of the other questions I asked? You looking for Jones to blood players to get those third choices game time etc?

No BS, your knowledge is extremely insular. That's not necessarily a bad thing, you know what you know (Saracens) and little else.

I just find it odd how you continuously comment on things you know little or nothing about.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:No BS, your knowledge is extremely insular. That's not necessarily a bad thing, you know what you know (Saracens) and little else.

I just find it odd how you continuously comment on things you know little or nothing about.

Welcome to the internet

No one ever doubted Itoje being a good player. Most on here knew about him from u20s world cups and 6Ns, or a little later when Lancaster talked of him in his first press conference,

Round and round in circles we go. Players mature, form goes up and down, injuries break players and sometimes they come back less than they were before or not at all. And sometimes, amazingly, they learn from their mistakes too.

Nobody who ever saw Itoje ever doubted that he would not be an international and an exceptional player. I did wonder if there might be an issue with finding the right position - either blindside or lock but we now know the answer is 'either'.

The question is when he would be ready, because, you know, he was actually very young when he went to the first England training sessions. They decided it was too early. We do know that the England management were not exactly at their best at the time but they were working closely with the players. There is no way of determining if the RWC was too early for him or not, but the experts decided it was. It wasn't a surprising decision.

munkian wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:No BS, your knowledge is extremely insular. That's not necessarily a bad thing, you know what you know (Saracens) and little else.

I just find it odd how you continuously comment on things you know little or nothing about.

Welcome to the internet

It shows your ignorance to make that assumption Sgt Poorly.

You think my knowledge is extremely insular because I do not rate T'eo or Devoto.... ridiculous.

I find it odd that you comment on things you know little or nothing about too - like when you made a claim that one of your overrated Newcastle players was as good as Itoje. Don't even know enough about your own players let alone others.

Hard to take a poster seriously when they think that sorry.


Again you ignore my positive comments about players from other clubs because it suits your perception of me. You believe I am an one eyed Saracens fan so only focus on my mention of Barritt and ignore all the other non Saracens players I have talked about.

I want the best for England, if Slade is that man then good. I just have my doubts.

no 7 & 1/2 I'd like an in form 2nd choice like George to get game time too. I think in the easier games England can experiment a bit more.

I'd like Robson to get a start. If Slade is indeed the best 12 option then give him a go at some point during the AIs.

I'd like to see George start as well. It's a bit more than that though surely as you were very critical that we had no depth at 8 when turning to Easter; when does Jones get that critical eye that he doesn't have those options there? Or was that the beating stick for Lancaster alone?

beshocked wrote:It shows your ignorance to make that assumption Sgt Poorly.

You think my knowledge is extremely insular because I do not rate T'eo or Devoto.... ridiculous.

I find it odd that you comment on things you know little or nothing about too - like when you made a claim that one of your overrated Newcastle players was as good as Itoje. Don't even know enough about your own players let alone others.

Hard to take a poster seriously when they think that sorry.


Again you ignore my positive comments about players from other clubs because it suits your perception of me. You believe I am an one eyed Saracens fan so only focus on my mention of Barritt and ignore all the other non Saracens players I have talked about.

I want the best for England, if Slade is that man then good. I just have my doubts.

no 7 & 1/2 I'd like an in form 2nd choice like George to get game time too. I think in the easier games England can experiment a bit more.

I'd like Robson to get a start. If Slade is indeed the best 12 option then give him a go at some point during the AIs.

Haha...you certainly are comic value. Start losing a debate and revert personal abuse or attacking a persons username, it's like talking with a child.

Nice of you to display your insular rugby knowledge straight after I highlighted it......The Newcastle player was Sean Robinson (yes he doesn't play for Saracens so I wouldn't expect you to know his name) and I at no point said he was as good or better player than Itoje.

I'd be very surprised if you'd seen Te'o, Hill, Slade or Devoto play this season tbh.

No 7 & 1/2 well I'd like to see Jones building that depth at 8 vs the weaker teams as cannot rely on Billy staying fit all the time.

If it's Hughes or Beaumount fine so be it. Same with Hartley and Farrell - England need other 2 and 12 options they can call on.

Hughes is the most like for like replacement for Billy.

Sgt pooly and yet it's you who started the childish name calling with BS.

To be frank I don't care what his name is, he's a journey man of no significance to me personally. You said multiple times you wanted him in the England squad. Why is no one rating Sean Robinson? Well it's because he's just not that good to be honest.

I could lie to you but to be honest no I haven't. I know that Barritt made 21 tackles vs Exeter and I know Sarries convincingly defeated both Worcester and Exeter.

Of course that means that Slade,T'eo and Devoto put in MOTM performances because I didn't watch them. Rugby is not a one man team but one man can influence a game and 21 tackles is a pretty hefty one.

If I watched the match we would probably have different viewpoints anyway.

You mean he doesn't play for Saracens.....and we're back to the original point. You have little to no rugby knowledge outside your own little bubble. BS is short for Beshocked by the way.

So you are a little more relaxed with Jones not doing it then, at least so far!

Jones has been in charge for less than a year. Even Lancaster had a honey moon period. I didn't really start criticising him till that capitulation in Wales in 2013.

Plus Jones has a 100% winning record.

Sgt Pooly not true but keep telling yourself the same old lies to make you feel better. Someone like you telling me I have no rugby knowledge outside Saracens isn't going to hurt my feelings. Actual people with real rugby knowledge know I do and that's all that matters to me. People who have actually met me and know me know I do.

Look I am sorry I don't rate T'eo and Devoto, I've obviously hurt your feelings.

But for something like depth (down to giving 3rd choice players a good number of caps etc) surely it has to be done now otherwise you get to that important game when you are down to 3rd choice and by then it's too late?

Well in some positions we need to sort out 2nd choice first but I agree with some.

Lock already has 3rd choice sorted out.
LH has 3 options sorted out - maybe more gametime for Mullan though.

On the wing our 3rd choices will get a good work out....

At 9 well we surely want Care,Youngs and Robson - that means gametime needed for Robson.

Technically we have 3 13s when all fit - Tuilagi,Joseph and Daly.

It's nothing to get upset about BS, you know what you know. I don't watch much Rabo T14 these days so I refrain from commenting on it.

You don't know anything outside of the Alliance, it's not a problem. Perhaps you'd be better off on a Saracens forum?

Yes, but Daly and Tuilagi haven't had any experience (unless a couple of sub appearances covers it) under Jones. After all Easter had a little bit of experience when called upon and you very critical that Lancaster hadn't a 3rd choice 8 in place. For me personally as I said at the time it's not really possible given the limited number fo games to do this comprehensively while building a strong first team but was just intertesetd to see your take on it now emotions have died down a bit.

Can we judge players on the AIs as well? We couldn't for the Wales 'friendly' just wondered on these.

Sgt Poorly I am not upset with you. How can I be upset with someone I pity?

Continue to rate journeymen and poor players as you wish. You are welcome to.

You know absolutely nothing about me so please do not claim you know me.

As I said before someone who rates a journeyman like Sean Robinson (I say his name for your benefit) above Itoje, clearly knows nothing about rugby. Doesn't matter whether you watch AP rugby every week or not.

Why on earth can't more posters just hold their hands up and occasionally say they are wrong?

Perhaps you should stick to the Newcastle forum where you can talk about "underrated" Newcastle players overlooked by England.


no 7 & 1/2 guess it depends if you think a pointless friendly vs Wales at the end of our rugby season is more important than against SA who we haven't beaten in years.

Now you are welcome to disagree but I would say that a win over SA would be much more valued. As for the other games they are still tests albeit vs weaker opposition. Still no pushover.

We play Wales every year in the 6 nations, those are the big games as was the RWC one.


Eddie Jones has been in charge less than a year as I said before. E.Jones should be looking to use this AIs to blood some more options. Especially in the easier matches - Fiji and Argentina.

Just after your opinion beshocked. It's like Goldilocks with you sometime. Can't get a debut away from home or against a good team or if the match is important (hence can we give debuts against SA?) but if the team isn't strong enough or it's not important we can't take anything from it. Just good to know ahead of time instead of hindsight.

Sgt Poorly....have I upset you again?

Good luck finding a post were I said Robinson was a better player than Itoje.

Lose an argument and personal insults start....

beshocked wrote:As I said before someone who rates a journeyman like Sean Robinson (I say his name for your benefit) above Itoje, clearly knows nothing about rugby. Doesn't matter whether you watch AP rugby every week or not.

Perhaps you should stick to the Newcastle forum where you can talk about "underrated" Newcastle players overlooked by England.

A little unfair to call him a journeyman when he came through our academy. He is out injured so far this season, but last season was one of the best statistically performing locks in the league. No one was saying he was better than Itoje, beshocked...we were saying he needed to be considered due to his excellent performances.

Likewise, don't be quick to slate all players of the lower clubs. As a whole they may not compete, but they are still capable of having individual players who are way above that level.

For example Mark Wilson would excel for a bigger club. And we have a few others that would also.

We all have to be realistic.....but you have to be able to keep an open mind also.

If Robshaw can't get through the 2 weeks of Challenge Cup unscathed, we get a Billy, Maro, Nathan back row.

Large.

No 7 & 1/2

I've said it before - I believe there are certain games which are better to blood options but of course sometimes it depends on the situation.

Games in the AI vs Fiji and Argentina are tests not friendlies - should win - good time to try out some new players.

They are preferable.

Sgt Pooly you started calling me BS, I just returned the favour. I am not going to trawl your previous posts.

Ultimately what is to be gained if I lose or win the argument - what am I even losing? You attack my knowledge, I attack yours. Nothing to be gained.

Geordiefalcon some players from the lower clubs are fine. Lewington looked like a good prospect. Pennell was a good prospect at one point though has probably missed the boat due to his loyalty to Worcester.

Nothing to back yourself up with......there's a shock.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Nothing to back yourself up with......there's a shock.

Just like every man and their dog in regards to the salary cap........

No I am not going to trawl through your posts.

beshocked wrote:...

To be frank I don't care what his name is, he's a journey man of no significance to me personally. You said multiple times you wanted him in the England squad. Why is no one rating Sean Robinson? Well it's because he's just not that good to be honest....

I spend far too much time reading these forums and nobody seriously suggested that Robinson should be playing for England. All that was suggested was that in one game he outplayed Itoje. Anything else was said in jest.

beshocked wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Nothing to back yourself up with......there's a shock.

Just like every man and their dog in regards to the salary cap........

No I am not going to trawl through your posts.

it is unfortunate that after cheating Bath and Saracens blocked the findings.

The irony is lost on BS LIW.

beshocked wrote:No 7 & 1/2

Geordiefalcon some players from the lower clubs are fine.  Lewington looked like a good prospect. Pennell was a good prospect at one point though has probably missed the boat due to his loyalty to Worcester.

Yes, so just remember that when your winding others up saying "they haven't achieved or won anything in the league or Euro cup etc" ....that good players playing for lower clubs aren't likely to have won much as their club as a whole isn't good enough....despite the individual being more than good enough.

lostinwales wrote:

beshocked wrote:...

To be frank I don't care what his name is, he's a journey man of no significance to me personally. You said multiple times you wanted him in the England squad. Why is no one rating Sean Robinson? Well it's because he's just not that good to be honest....

I spend far too much time reading these forums and nobody seriously suggested that Robinson should be playing for England. All that was suggested was that in one game he outplayed Itoje. Anything else was said in jest.

Who was talking in jest ?? Not me...!

Wait till Robbo hears about this, he'll rain lightning bolts down on your heads whilst screaming MARO WHO?!

For a club like Falcons it becomes a vicious cycle you know, Saracens may not have taken any of our players but, plenty of others have. It gets so we don't have many internationals and the better players decide that they won't get picked internationally playing for us, meaning we are perennially over looked. We don't have the money to sign stars anymore.

When I think of the squad we could have had, it depresses me.

Cumbrian wrote:Wait till Robbo hears about this, he'll rain lightning bolts down on your heads whilst screaming MARO WHO?!

Englands new 7 it seems.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:No 7 & 1/2

Geordiefalcon some players from the lower clubs are fine.  Lewington looked like a good prospect. Pennell was a good prospect at one point though has probably missed the boat due to his loyalty to Worcester.

Yes, so just remember that when your winding others up saying "they haven't achieved or won anything in the league or Euro cup etc" ....that good players playing for lower clubs aren't likely to have won much as their club as a whole isn't good enough....despite the individual being more than good enough.

Geordiefalcon they can still win things at international level. Indeed they can also win MOTM awards, catch the eye in other ways. They can stand out as class.

It's easy for you to say player X would perform better in a better team - it's not that simple. Not everything works.

Achievements and winning things counts for something.

LondonTiger wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Wait till Robbo hears about this, he'll rain lightning bolts down on your heads whilst screaming MARO WHO?!

Englands new 7 it seems.

Yes it would appear so....

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:No 7 & 1/2

Geordiefalcon some players from the lower clubs are fine.  Lewington looked like a good prospect. Pennell was a good prospect at one point though has probably missed the boat due to his loyalty to Worcester.

Yes, so just remember that when your winding others up saying "they haven't achieved or won anything in the league or Euro cup etc" ....that good players playing for lower clubs aren't likely to have won much as their club as a whole isn't good enough....despite the individual being more than good enough.

Geordiefalcon they can still win things at international level. Indeed they can also win MOTM awards, catch the eye in other ways. They can stand out as class.

It's easy for you to say player X would perform better in a better team - it's not that simple. Not everything works.

Achievements and winning things counts for something.

Its fairly simple to me....

Yes winning and achievements count for a hell of a lot...im not saying they don't. I said above we all have to be realistic. The top teams play in the big competitions against other top sides...its like playing international games. Those players will take the pole position for international squad member spots.....

HOWEVER

Im also saying don't belittle or disrespect the possible inclusions of players from smaller clubs because their team as a whole isn't good enough!

Don't forget your very own Jaques Burger played for Namibia...a very small international side that many English Championship sides could beat...yet he was an amazing player.

It's a gamble but it would give England another lineout option, would of course allow Launchbury to be in the XV. Just depends how well he plays with Robshaw.

I wonder if Schalk Burger will give Itoje tips to facing his fellow country men. Also some random bloke called Richard Hill is still around, guess he can get some tips off him. Not bad... being able to get advice from those two.

Jacques Burger stood out though as the outstanding player in the Namibia team. He was the captain. His tackle count was huge plus of course he had his achievements with Saracens.

http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/england-countries/tackle-by-tackle-how-jacques-burger-stopped-clermont-44653

Jacques Burger was a hero of Namibia long before he played for Sarries though

beshocked wrote:It's a gamble but it would give England another lineout option, would of course allow Launchbury to be in the XV. Just depends how well he plays with Robshaw.

I wonder if Schalk Burger will give Itoje tips to facing his fellow country men. Also some random bloke called Richard Hill is still around, guess he can get some tips off him. Not bad... being able to get advice from those two.

Jacques Burger stood out though as the outstanding player in the Namibia team. He was the captain. His tackle count was huge plus of course he had his achievements with Saracens.

http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/england-countries/tackle-by-tackle-how-jacques-burger-stopped-clermont-44653

And that exactly MY point....he stood out in a small unfashionable lower standard side! Its exactly the same at smaller CLUBS, yet you are so quick to ridicule the idea.

I like the look of a "back 5" of Launch, Kruis, Itoje and Robshaw as R/L flankers and Billy V, with I presume Lawes and Hughes on the bench.

Add in Cole and Hartley and Mako with Marler, George (or if he starts, Taylor) and Hill, and that packs ticks all of the boxes we need for SA. Wouldn't pick it against NZ and not sure about Aus but looks powerful, dynamic, and strong at the breakdown and lineout and I think can outwork the SA pack without being overpowered

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:It's a gamble but it would give England another lineout option, would of course allow Launchbury to be in the XV. Just depends how well he plays with Robshaw.

I wonder if Schalk Burger will give Itoje tips to facing his fellow country men. Also some random bloke called Richard Hill is still around, guess he can get some tips off him. Not bad... being able to get advice from those two.

Jacques Burger stood out though as the outstanding player in the Namibia team. He was the captain. His tackle count was huge plus of course he had his achievements with Saracens.

http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/england-countries/tackle-by-tackle-how-jacques-burger-stopped-clermont-44653

And that exactly MY point....he stood out in a small unfashionable lower standard side! Its exactly the same at smaller CLUBS, yet you are so quick to ridicule the idea.

Who are the outstanding performers in smaller clubs being overlooked in your opinion?

Parisse has shone in a relatively weak Italy side for years, ditto Gorgodze for Georgia. USA have had a few.

I personally wouldn't go wow that Mark Wilson guy is a really outstanding performer for Newcastle but then again I guess I don't watch Newcastle as often as you and Sgt Pooly who get to see him week in week out.

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:It's a gamble but it would give England another lineout option, would of course allow Launchbury to be in the XV. Just depends how well he plays with Robshaw.

I wonder if Schalk Burger will give Itoje tips to facing his fellow country men. Also some random bloke called Richard Hill is still around, guess he can get some tips off him. Not bad... being able to get advice from those two.

Jacques Burger stood out though as the outstanding player in the Namibia team. He was the captain. His tackle count was huge plus of course he had his achievements with Saracens.

http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/england-countries/tackle-by-tackle-how-jacques-burger-stopped-clermont-44653

And that exactly MY point....he stood out in a small unfashionable lower standard side! Its exactly the same at smaller CLUBS, yet you are so quick to ridicule the idea.

Who are the outstanding performers in smaller clubs being overlooked in your opinion?

Parisse has shone in a relatively weak Italy side for years, ditto Gorgodze for Georgia. USA have had a few.

I personally wouldn't go wow that Mark Wilson guy is a really outstanding performer for Newcastle but then again I guess I don't watch Newcastle as often as you and Sgt Pooly who get to see him week in week out.

Lewington at LI.

I don't think there's any Falcons players getting overlooked, none are quite good enough. Wilson could do a job but there's better players like Thompson at Wasps who also aren't involved.

1. Mako
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Kruis
6. Robshaw
7. Itoje
8. Vuinipola

16. George
17. Marler
18. Hill
19. Lawes
20. Hughes

Is the best we can put out and pretty damn impressive tbh.

ChequeredJersey think it would be a big ask to pick a championship club player.

Sgt Pooly we are in agreement. That's a mighty fine looking selection.

beshocked wrote:ChequeredJersey think it would be a big ask to pick a championship club player.

Sgt Pooly we are in agreement. That's a mighty fine looking selection.

Yeah I agree but he's an example of a player playing well above his team.

That team should really have everything at the breakdown, no specialist fetcher but the team with Haskell didn't either and between them Itoje (a genius at the BD), Launch, Robshaw and Cole can get over the ball and the whole pack is pretty good at clearing out these days. The lineout would also be exceeding strong and I think it can do a hell of a lot of work in the loose too

Mullan, Brookes, Genge, Sinckler, Taylor, Cowan Dickie, Attwood, Slater, Parling, Garvey, Ewers, Kvesic, Morgan, Beaumont all looking in good nick to step in too

And James Chisholm, after tonight. Playing against Parisse.

James Chisholm making Parisse look very ordinary.

Note I'm saying in this game he's played better, not that he's a better player then Parisse. That seems to confuse some.

yappysnap wrote:James Chisholm making Parisse look very ordinary.

Note I'm  saying in this game he's played better, not that he's a better player then Parisse. That seems to confuse some.

I cant believe your saying Chisholm is a better player than the legend that is Parisse!!!! Next you'll be saying hes as good as Itoje!!

GeordieFalcon wrote:

yappysnap wrote:James Chisholm making Parisse look very ordinary.

Note I'm  saying in this game he's played better, not that he's a better player then Parisse. That seems to confuse some.

I cant believe your saying Chisholm is a better player than the legend that is Parisse!!!! Next you'll be saying hes as good as Itoje!!

Fool. Nobody is as good as Itoje. He's going to go down in history as our best scrum half ever!