Southgate's England and the next England manager

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Get to close the Allardyce thread in record time, now caretaker manager Southgate has a chance to stake his claim for the job, whilst we all discuss almost anyone else as the thought of Southgate worries many.

England XI: Pickford, Alexander-Arnold, Gomez, Dier, Coady, Tripper, Rice, Phillips, Sancho, Sterling, Kane.

Bit of a change for England, both tactically and in terms of personnel. Coady and Phillips both getting debut starts. Hopefully the front three are sharper than last time out...and hopefully the opposition might want to attack a little more than the Icelandics.

Er...not sharper at all. Rubbish stuff. At least the PL starts again on Saturday.

Pretty obvious why nearly half that side won’t be starting at the euro’s.

Pointless game in a pointless tournament in a pointless international break.

GSC wrote:Pointless game in a pointless tournament in a pointless international break.

At least Foden and Greenwood got a shag!

BlueCoverman wrote:

GSC wrote:Pointless game in a pointless tournament in a pointless international break.

At least Foden and Greenwood got a shag!

Can't say they didn't overachieve

England beat Wales 3-0 in a pointless international friendly.

In less pointless matches, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland all went to penalties in their Euro 2020 play-off games. Scotland won theirs against Israel, meaning they play Serbia in the one-leg play-off final in Belgrade, with the winners proceeding to England's group in the tournament proper.

Northern Ireland also triumphed, against Bosnia, so they'll play Slovakia (RoI's conquerors) in Belfast next month for a place at Euro 2020. One of Georgia or North Macedonia will also qualify for their first major tournament (as independent nations).

Any interest left in England? Probably not, after seeing this team.

Pickford; TAA, Walker, Maguire, Trippier; Henderson, Rice, Dier; Mount, Rashford, Calvert-Lewin.

England win and they'll take charge of the all-important Nations League A Group 2.

Oh dear Gareth...should have stuck with the kids.

That half was a load of hot garbage. Only 1 team actually playing football...and it wasn't England.

Side to side passing across the back line, then booming it forward, hoping one of the front 3 will get on the end. So predictable and so easy to defend against.

Belgium don't look like they got out of 2nd gear, but when they did attack, we were in utter panic.

Eric Dire and Harry Maguire...the disastrous duo...should never wear an England shirt again. They are just liabilities.

Only going in level at the break thanks to Henderson diving to get us a penalty.

Hope Southgate has a Plan B...

Why do our players look scared when they get the ball? Why is no-one running with it and taking people on? Why are we so slow...static in some cases?

Good win for England. Couple of missed chances at the end prevented the margin being bigger. Nice to see a bit of luck go England's way, with the winning goal. Reminded me of Rooney's v Brazil at the Maracana. Both penalties were soft.

Now just need the point in Belgium, and the two home wins against Iceland and Denmark to go through to the semi-finals.

Recalling Kieron Dyer, clearly a masterstroke.

Major concern is still the same - Southgate doesn't seem to know what his best XI is. With the packed international calendar, establishing a preferred XI and giving them time to gel and play together is of paramount importance. Lack of cohesion was the main problem today and needs to be sorted before the Euros.

Flukey win for England. Mount's goal took a huge deflection off the defender.

Still, a win is a win, as they say and it was one of the tougher games.

Feck me, Harry Maguire is properly, properly useless. Aside from the sending off, why does he keep bombing up the field under he impression that he's Beckenbauer?

Was that even a free kick? Kinda lost me here

Yes, for the follow-through.

It certainly wasn't a penalty though, that was a nonsense from the referee.

Maguire is a donkey. Career enhanced by that WC showing, where he wasn’t expected to play football, and now being exposed, technically, and with his lack of pace. Walker, Rice, James, Phillips, Coady types, should be nowhere near the side next summer, so no surprise with this kind of result. Ill-discipline an issue with this side, on and off the pitch.

Thought the Danes were very lucky, but that's football. A world-class save from Kasper, a goal-line clearance, Maguire's stupidity and poor refereeing the difference.

Think the above is a bit harsh on Rice. James had a good game today. Phillips is more potential than actual ability at this stage. I think Walker's in the top three of appearances made under Southgate, so he's probably going nowhere!

How about we ditch the five at the back with two holding midfielders in front of them Gareth

I still don't understand why this tournament hasn't been scrapped given the fixture congestion we'll have until about 2023

GSC wrote:I still don't understand why this tournament hasn't been scrapped given the fixture congestion we'll have until about 2023

It's insanity really, nobody cares about it anyway, the league cup should have been dropped for this season too. I actually think it's a stretch even carrying on with the FA cup and the European cups which seem to represent an unnecessary risk. Blitz the domestic leagues and start afresh next year.

I said it before but if you can't see an issue with sending players all over the world to mix with players from other countries, then bring them all back home during a pandemic...

On hand you see the lengths that the ECB went to to make sure that cricket in England was as safe as possible, doing a bloody good job in the process but football for some reason considers itself above all that and simply carries on like normal to a large extent.

The Champions League going ahead is ultimately to the benefit of the clubs that really should not need such financial help.

Lots of pointless international fixtures on for the next few days, but the final qualifiers for Euro 2020/21 (whatever they're calling it) are also on tonight.

Georgia v North Macedonia
Hungary v Iceland
N. Ireland v Slovakia
Serbia v Scotland

One-leg, winner-takes-all for a place at the Euros in all of those games. Winner of Serbia/Scotland will find themselves in England's group next summer.

A very poor Ireland team again. England should win, probably 4-0.

Euro games look more appealing.

Just delved into England's probable path at Euro 2020...it looks tough whichever way you cut it.

If England win their group, it's most likely one of Germany/Portugal in the last 16, followed by Spain in the quarters, the Dutch in the semis, then one of France/Belgium in the final.

If England finish runners-up, it's most likely Sweden/Poland in the last 16, France in the quarters, Belgium in the semis, and probably the Dutch in the final. This path also means going to Russia for the Quarter-finals.

If England finish 3rd...well we don't really have any idea, except it's likely England will be playing Belgium/Dutch in the last 16.

westisbest wrote:A very poor Ireland team again. England should win, probably 4-0.

Euro games look more appealing.

Well plenty of drama. In the three games this evening, all the away teams were leading 1-0 going into the last few minutes.

Hungary then scored in the 88th and 92nd minute to devastate Iceland and go through to the Euros, 2-1. NI equalised in the 87th minute with an own-goal to take it to ET against Slovakia. Serbia did the same against Scotland with a 90th minute leveller.

NI beaten in ET. Scotland through to England's group after triumphing on penalties for the second game in a row.

Don't know where to congratulate Scotland? So here will have to do.

Well done Scotland!

westisbest wrote:A very poor Ireland team again. England should win, probably 4-0.

Euro games look more appealing.

Pretty close - only 3-0 to what was largely England's second string line up (although many would argue that the balance of this side is actually better than the first choice, especially the balance between defence and attack in the midfield selection).

Atila wrote:Don't know where to congratulate Scotland? So here will have to do.

Well done Scotland!

Scotland will also have home advantage for two of their three group games, so a great chance for them to get through to the KO stages of a major tournament for the first time.

Duty281 wrote:

Atila wrote:Don't know where to congratulate Scotland? So here will have to do.

Well done Scotland!

Scotland will also have home advantage for two of their three group games, so a great chance for them to get through to the KO stages of a major tournament for the first time.

Having fans allowed back in the stadiums will be a huge factor. I fancy Scotland at Hampden against anyone because of the atmosphere the fans generate. Jesus we were unlucky to get a draw against England last time we played. Without fans theres no real thing as home advantage.


Its a rare joy as a Scotland fan right now, so Im just going to savour it. As long as we dont get pumped at Wembley I'll be happy.

Back to the Nations League. After slipping up against Denmark, twice, England now need to beat both Belgium tonight and Iceland on Wednesday. At the same time, England need to hope Denmark only get four points or fewer from their last two games. If both of those things happen, England make the semi-finals.

Team for tonight: Pickford, Walker, Trippier, Mings, Dier, Chilwell, Rice, Henderson, Mount, Grealish, Kane.

We've been spared Maguire, but only because he's serving a ban. Big opportunity for Grealish to prove his credentials.

It’s one thing looking good against Wales B and Ireland, but tonight is the real test. Not overly confident looking at the side

2-0 Belgium HT.

In many ways, England actually better than they were in the reverse fixture at Wembley. But far too slow in possession and not enough attacking movement. Not a fan of this 3-4-3, or whatever it is, and not a fan of playing both Henderson and Rice in the same XI. Need some pace off the bench.

Both goals were poor to concede. One the result of giving the ball away deep in their own half, and not transitioning correctly in defence, the other coming from a clumsy foul and a wall not jumping.

2-0 FT.

Frustrating night for Southgate and England. Plenty of ball and territory, but a lack of cutting-edge up front. Haven't bought into the Grealish hype, but he was pretty decent tonight. Like what I've seen from Saka over the past year, too.

One more game against Iceland, then look ahead with cautious optimism for the Euros.

Duty281 wrote:Haven't bought into the Grealish hype

The pundits have him on a level similar to Gascoigne. Absolutely creaming themselves over anything he does. It really is embarrassing.

Good player, but that’s about as far as you go. If he was anything other, with respect, he wouldn’t be at Aston Villa. England can’t afford to play him in the front three, as we need a genuine goal threat, and more pace alongside, Kane.

The 3-4-3 formation needs one holding midfielder and one more advanced one, with two pacey wide attackers and Kane (or Calvert-Lewin) as the central pivot. Play with two holding midfielders and there's a lack of movement in front. Should be Henderson or Rice with Grealish or Foden.

We need to do more to cause the (better) opposition problems, not just try to negate their attacking threat, as we simply can't do it well enough for long enough with the defensive players we have available.

I’d probably try something like this.

——————-Kane——————-
-Sterling———————Sancho-
——-Grealish—Henderson——-
Chilwell——————————TAA
— Maguire—Coady—--Walker—
——————Pickford——————

I'd prefer England to go for the 4-3-3 formation.

Pickford in goal. Chilwell and Trent as the full-backs. Gomez and Mings (?) as the two centre-backs - this is such a weak area for England. I've liked what Mings has shown for England so far. Gomez is more potential than realised ability at this point. Maguire is woeful and a total liability, as is Walker. Tomori and Keane have a good few months to show what they're capable of, the former looks a very good prospect. Stones hasn't reached his early potential and may never do so.

Henderson, Dier and one of Foden/Grealish/Mount/Alli/Maddison in the midfield three. Far from enamoured with Dier, but Rice doesn't look good enough and neither does Winks. I'd rather not go back to James Milner. Grealish and Foden are probably the leading contenders for the other spot, but no one is really stamping their authority on it as yet. Alli's form has disappeared over the last two years, which is a shame.

Kane up front with DCL as second choice. Sterling and Rashford the wide attackers, with Sancho narrowly behind them in the pecking order and an excellent bench option.

Just John wrote:I’d probably try something like this.

——————-Kane——————-
-Sterling———————Sancho-
——-Grealish—Henderson——-
Chilwell——————————TAA
— Maguire—Coady—--Walker—
——————Pickford——————

I'm not sold on Pickford being the best keeper - has regressed a bit from being a very promising young player (a bit like Hart). However, Southgate seems set on im at the moment.

Definitely wouldn't have Walker as a right side central defender - Gomes would be in if fit. Personally don't mind sticking with Maguire, who will come back to some sort of form and offers something useful with his willingness to carry the ball out of defence; might switch him and Coady round though, to give HM more of a 'sweeper' role.

Otherwise this looks about right - argue over Rashford v Sancho, but that's a reasonable call either way.

In a way, Duty's suggested 4-3-3 is almost the same, as the two full backs will push on (as they are better attacking than defending) and one of the holding midfielders will drop in almost to the defensive line.

We need to just accept we're going to be a bit defensively fragile, we don't have the talent at centre back or goalkeeper to be anything but it, and throwing more defenders on the pitch to try and negate it is totally the wrong way to go.

We have a wealth of genuine class attacking talent, lets just try and do our most to let that flourish and carry us. Totally agree with Duty that a variation of 4-3-3 is the way to go. I'd potentially argue that none of the DMs are truly worth a spot and just go Henderson and then two of Foden/Grealish/Maddison/Alli/Mount etc, but that's never going to actually happen

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:We need to just accept we're going to be a bit defensively fragile, we don't have the talent at centre back or goalkeeper to be anything but it, and throwing more defenders on the pitch to try and negate it is totally the wrong way to go.

We have a wealth of genuine class attacking talent, lets just try and do our most to let that flourish and carry us. Totally agree with Duty that a variation of 4-3-3 is the way to go. I'd potentially argue that none of the DMs are truly worth a spot and just go Henderson and then two of Foden/Grealish/Maddison/Alli/Mount etc, but that's never going to actually happen

Agree, certainly when we are picking 3 centre halves, 2 defensive midfielders and guys who are normally full backs as wingers / wing backs. Might work a bit better if we had Vardy up front to lead a fast counter-attack, but not if the attack centres on Kane as a pivot and attempting to pass our way through an opposing defence. It's an oddity that Southgate has seemed to become more defensive-minded in the last 18 months and our results have dropped at the same time.

If we are going to lose to the very best sides, I'd rather it was 3-2 with us giving it a really good go, than 1-0 with us offering no threat.

I think Southgate's arse has gone a little this past year or so, and he's started to doubt himself and his players.

I had no issue with the back three at the World Cup, or the no-frills style. As he said in reflection, at that point he felt that none of the centre halves available to him had proved that they could be trusted in a two, and on top of that we were a couple of players light when it came to the creative side of things at that stage, too. He managed his resources and the circumstances well.

He made the switch to a 4-3-3 afterwards and we started playing our best football in donkeys years. 3-0 up against Spain after half an hour (or whatever it was), scoring goals for fun and finally actually breezing through those qualification matches with a big margin of superiority, rather than them being the dull, hard slogs which they've been for us for so many years. Sure, the opposition for the most part wasn't great but the point is that any team with ideas of competing for international honours have to be putting those teams conclusively to the sword, which we were finally doing. The emergence of players such as Sancho, Grealish, Foden etc. really leaves us with personnel much better suited to a 4-3-3 as well.

Which is why I can't really understand why he's suddenly reverted back to his old formation. Maybe he still doesn't trust any of his centre halves enough to play them in a two - but the problem is, he clearly doesn't even trust them in a three, as he's been playing two defensively-minded (or at least grafters who aren't known for creativity) midfielders in front of them as well! Henderson and Dier the other night, Phillips, Dier AND Rice against Denmark, for Gawd's sake.

If he insists on having two holders or no-frills in midfield, then at least play 4-2-3-1 so we can have some more pace alongside Kane and don't have to shoehorn midfielders into unnatural positions up alongside him. You see Kane dropping back to create and bring others into the game the other night as he does for Spurs - the difference is, this time there's hardly ever anyone running beyond him. If Southgate wants two holders then he should put Grealish at number ten with Sancho and Sterling wide of him and Kane, surely?

Seems like a lot of the momentum we built up in the first twelve to eighteen months after the World Cup has ebbed away.

Whatever England's problems are, Germany's are still far worse. Despite fielding a decent-looking team last night they lost 6-0 to Spain, couldn't muster a shot on target all match and only had 30% possession.

Routine 4-0 win over Iceland to see out the year, in spite of Southgate persisting with three central defenders against an opposition who had a tactical shape reminiscent of San Marino.

Iceland end with six losses from six to end a dismal campaign.

Pointless game. Why on earth GS thought Kane needed to play against Iceland B, is beyond me.

A couple of months out from Euro 2020. What would everyone's team be for the first game against Croatia, as things stand? Mine would be the following:


I'd favour Pope over Pickford. Shaw's had a good season so gets in ahead of Chilwell, likewise James who I'd narrowly favour over Trent. Centre-backs there's no real options demanding to be picked, so I've gone for Stones and the underrated Mings.

Henderson obviously gets in if he's fit and can play the same sort of midfield role he did at Liverpool last season. Ward-Prowse is chosen because he's bloody brilliant at free-kicks, and another attacking option like Mount would imbalance the team. Grealish's excellent 12-18 months should be rewarded.

Kane is still far and away England's best choice at 9, and Southgate needs to hope he rediscovers his early season form. Foden's in tremendous form and looks like England's best prospect of a generation so must be in the starting XI. Sterling's in by default really, I don't think Rashford or Sancho have had the best of seasons.

I'd fill up the remaining 12 places in the squad with: Pickford, Henderson; Trent, Chilwell, Gomez (if fit), Keane; Rice, Phillips; Mount, Rashford, Sancho, Calvert-Lewin.

Maddison, Bellingham and Saka just miss out. I wouldn't go near Maguire, Walker or Dier, though I expect all three of those to be in the squad...and at least two of them to be starting! And I do wonder if Lingard's late-season form and international experience would be enough for him to force his way in?

There will be a 26 man squad for the Euros, not 23. Chances for a few more players to squeeze in, even if they may not get any gametime.

No Ramos, or any Real Madrid players whatsoever, in the Spain squad.

England's squad named tomorrow. Henderson and Maguire expected to be included despite their injuries. Pope, undergoing surgery, likely to miss out.

Spanish squad is relatively poor. French & Portuguese squads are just packed, whereas Belgium’s, you still feel they will be vulnerable defensively.

Seems Southgate bottling the decisions, so naming a 33 man provisional squad.

Even worse, Southgate has named 33 (!) players, which he has to remove 7 from in a week or so. 26 is far too bloated as it is, I can't fathom why he needs to put 33 in a provisional squad!

Henderson; Johnstone; Ramsdale; Pickford.

Trent; Chilwell; Coady; Godfrey; James; Maguire; Mings; Shaw; Stones; Trippier; Walker; White.

Bellingham; Henderson; Lingard; Mount; Rice; Phillips; Ward-Prowse;

DCL; Foden; Grealish; Greenwood; Kane; Rashford; Saka; Sancho; Watkins; Sterling.

Guessing Ramsdale, Godfrey, White, Watkins, Greenwood, one of Trent/Trippier, and one of Phillips/JWP are the leading names to be cut.

No room for Maddison, Dier, Wan-Bissaka, Tomori, Winks, Bamford or Ings at all.