Southgate's England and the next England manager

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Sun 02 Oct 2016, 1:33 pm

First topic message reminder :

Get to close the Allardyce thread in record time, now caretaker manager Southgate has a chance to stake his claim for the job, whilst we all discuss almost anyone else as the thought of Southgate worries many.

by Duty281 Fri 23 Sep 2022, 1:20 pm

superflyweight wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
alfie wrote:Hope England can get a result against Italy : not that I really think this Nations League business is important ; but any reverse would only produce more of the somewhat irrational Southgate-bashing so common here and elsewhere...

I am no football expert ; but it does puzzle me why Southgate inspires so much criticism. England's results under him are a lot better than they have been since...whenever : this is a fact..

Now one can say (as his detractors do , ad nauseum) that with the resources he has he ought to do better ; that any success is down to luck of the draw or the great bunch of players he has ; or that a "better" manager would certainly win more because he would (a) pick the right players/formation/tactics or (b) make superior substitutions in personnel and/or timing...But these are all opinions. And obviously , not tested.

So really , we are just guessing , no ? Sack him and try someone else - and only then see if it works for good or ill ?

As one who has seen a great deal of English heartache since that blessed day in 1966 ; I am inclined to say "Be careful what you wish for".

England's results are not better under Southgate than under other managers, I'm afraid. Southgate has done mostly the same as other England managers, in that he has got England past the teams they should be beating, but when it comes to the crunch and England play a team just as good or better than them on paper they come up short (2018 Croatia/Belgium, 2019 Netherlands, 2021 Italy) with a dire performance.

Southgate inspires so much criticism because some England football fans can see the possibilities. A side with Bellingham, Foden and Grealish, plus others, should be a side that looks to win the midfield battle, control possession and create a plethora of chances for Kane, even against the toughest nations. It should not be a side, as it is under Southgate, that has 34% possession and has two shots on target in 120 minutes.

It is true to say that Southgate has got England further in tournaments than most England managers; but it is also true to say that Southgate has had the easiest draws of any England manager, a home tournament, mountains of luck, and has also worked with a very strong England squad. A squad that is stronger than most England managers have had to work with.

I'm not guessing, and I don't think most people are either - Southgate is a terrible manager. Probably only McClaren and Revie rank lower than him in the England managers list.

Taylor, Hodgson, Sven and Capello anyone?

Hodgson and Sven were much better than Southgate.

Hodgson worked with a far less talented group of England players than Southgate did, plus he never got a home tournament, and he got tough draws. Look at Euro 2012 - Hodgson gets Italy in the quarter-finals, Southgate got Ukraine in the last Euros. World Cup? Hodgson gets put in with Italy and Uruguay, Southgate gets Tunisia and Panama.

England's performance v Italy in 2014 was one of the best England performances I've seen, it's a shame that finishing the chances eluded them. As I've mentioned before, England's performance v Italy in Euro 2012 was better than England's performance v Italy in 2021, and Hodgson didn't have the luxury of home advantage or the amount of talented players Southgate had.

True enough, Hodgson lost his way after the 2014 World Cup and Euro 2016 was a shambles. But he worked with scraps compared to the feast Southgate had.

Sven was a very unfortunate England manager. Injuries ruined his tenure. At the 2002 World Cup, Sven lost Neville and Gerrard to injury, and had to carry a half-fit Beckham and Owen through the tournament. Then at Euro 2004 Rooney broke his foot (England probably win the tournament if that doesn't happen), and in 2006 injuries damaged Rooney and Owen, leaving him short of match-fit strikers. Horrific refereeing decisions also cost Sven, notably Campbell's disallowed goal v Portugal in 2004. And the penalty dice never landed in Sven's favour.

Capello's a tough one to judge as he only had one tournament. But from the position he inherited (England failing to qualify for Euro 2008) he did very well to restore confidence in the national team by destroying Croatia twice in qualifying. The World Cup didn't go as hoped, mainly because the injury to Rio on the eve of the tournament destroyed England's sound defensive structure and forced him to experiment with alternatives during the World Cup itself. Even then, England got to the last 16 and would have probably beaten a highly talented Germany had it not been for the worst refereeing moment I've ever seen in my life (a decision that was probably bent).

Perhaps a fair point about Taylor, I'd overlooked him. He's below Southgate, but again he worked with a lesser talented squad, suffered injuries at key times, and managed in an age when it was difficult to qualify for tournaments, and England were in a very tough group in Euro 1992 (eventual winners, hosts and France). Taylor was always short of international management level, but he was dealt a very tough deck of cards.

by Duty281 Fri 23 Sep 2022, 1:23 pm

mountain man wrote:The Southgate bashing seems to be a national pastime, get lots of it on BBC HYSs but seemingly here as well.
Got England to WC semi and final of Euros(which they could/should have won). As it happens I thought his tactics in Euro final was poor, went way too defensive trying to defend lead instead of pressing for another possibly winning goal. Anyway, is there an oven ready replacement? Not really.

Ultimately it's down to the players. A basic fact is best players in Prem aren't English so why should England expect to be best team.

Whatever, I support England whoever is picked and whoever is manager(with exception of Alladyce obvs).

Real shame about Allardyce. He's got an image of a long-ball, bacon and egg sandwich, fight to the last ditch type manager, but in reality he was amazingly progressive and it's a shame he didn't get the job following Sven.

Allardyce was the first to properly use data analytics in English football, and it was a cornerstone of him taking tiny Bolton from the second division to the cusp of the Champions League. Allardyce's image and nationality ruined him as he never got a proper chance at a club with resources.

I'm concerned Dyche, a similarly fantastic manager with image and typecasting issues, could go the same way.

by Duty281 Fri 23 Sep 2022, 1:35 pm

Ranking of England managers:

1) Sir Alf;
2) Glenn Hoddle;
3) El Tel;
4) Sir Bobby;
5) Ron Greenwood;
6) Roy my boy;
7) Sven;
8) Fabio Capello;
9) Southgate;
10) Taylor;
11) McClaren;
12) Keegan;
13) Don Revie.

Forgot about Keegan as well! He's below Southgate. Unranked - the caretakers, Big Sam and Walter.

by GSC Fri 23 Sep 2022, 1:39 pm

Duty281 wrote:
alfie wrote:Well I didn't really expect to convince you , Duty

But I don't see how you can claim Southgate's results haven't been better than most of his predecessors : surely the definition of success is progress in major tournaments ? And you concede that he has exceeded most in that regard. Your opinion that this is all down to luck , etc , is subjective and open to debate , no ? I mean (for example) : "easy" draws, you say ... but he didn't manage to lose to Iceland...

To be clear : I am not suggesting the man should be immune from criticism. Even I don't always agree with some of the things he does ; but then I have no top level football experience so it is somewhat questionable whether my ideas would have any merit I don't suppose anyone else on here has top level playing/management credentials either - though of course that doesn't preclude everyone having opinions : just as long as we remember that that is all they are.

The argument that he has brought England a fair way , but isn't the right man to take the "next step" , is one for which I have more respect than this OTT "he's awful" stuff : I think that is something that will indeed be up for discussion after the WC ; but is probably best left until the appropriate time.

In any case I am sure the arguments will run and run : more concerned with waiting and watching what actually happens . And I would sincerely hope that even the harshest critics would actually prefer to see England get a good result rather than fail to give ammunition for their cause...

It isn't actually, because tournament draws can work in such a way that one manager/team looks more successful than they actually are. Imagine two teams:

Team 1 plays Denmark in the Last 16 and wins. They then play Brazil in the QF and lose.
Team 2 plays Paraguay, USA and South Korea, before losing to Brazil in the F.

On the face of it, Team 2 have made the final and look more successful. But in reality they've fallen at the same hurdle as Team 1, and an easy draw has gifted them further progress. If you swap Team 1 and Team 2 around, Team 1 makes the final and Team 2 makes the QF.

It's the same with Southgate. If England had been in the other half of the draw at last year's Euros, and played Italy in the QF instead of the final, that's where they would have exited. Presumably we wouldn't all be so happy and delighted with Southgate had the draw worked out differently?

And that's the luck he's had that other England managers haven't had. Robson probably gets England to two World Cup finals if they get drawn in the other half to Argentina and West Germany, in 1986 and 1990 respectively. Sven the same in 2002. Venables in 1996. Maybe Sven in Euro 2004 as well.

Tournament progression isn't how you judge success (unless the thing is won). Raw results are. And what has Southgate achieved when we consider raw results? He's beaten Tunisia, Panama and Sweden, followed by a poor Croatia, the Czechs and Germany at home. Then eased past a terrible Ukraine and edged out a struggling Denmark (at home). Add in a fortuitous penalty win over Colombia.

What about when England play decent opposition, like 2018 Croatia, Belgium, or Italy? Oh yes, they come up far short. And it will be the same at the upcoming World Cup, whenever England face talented opposition.

As I've said before, if a person is happy with England beating the likes of Panama and Ukraine, it's fine, stick with Southgate. Some seem to think that is the level of this talented group of England players and we should be content with it. But others, like myself, believe this England team is better than playing seven defensive players, lumping it up to Kane, and praying for a penalty lottery v Italy.

And you also have to add into the equation the strength of each team that a manager has. Southgate has a stronger England team at his disposal than the majority of England managers. He's also had the fortune of his key players staying fit, something which has eluded most England managers.

And I'm tired of Iceland being brought up. The way some people bang on about Iceland you would think they're San Marino or Gibraltar. Iceland in 2016 were a capable team. Yes, England shouldn't have lost to them. But going into Euro 2016, Iceland had managed to beat the Dutch home and away, and they managed a credible draw v Portugal in the group stage of the tournament. That's Portugal who went on to win the tournament.

Losing 4-0 to Hungary at Wembley is far worse than losing 2-1 to Iceland on neutral ground.

Each to their own but I cant take the last argument seriously. 4-0 in a glorified friendly in the middle of a packed out 3 year schedule isn't on the same planet as losing a QF of a major tournament to Iceland in a game you were 1-0 up in after 5 minutes.

by mountain man Fri 23 Sep 2022, 1:53 pm

Duty281 wrote:
mountain man wrote:The Southgate bashing seems to be a national pastime, get lots of it on BBC HYSs but seemingly here as well.
Got England to WC semi and final of Euros(which they could/should have won). As it happens I thought his tactics in Euro final was poor, went way too defensive trying to defend lead instead of pressing for another possibly winning goal. Anyway, is there an oven ready replacement? Not really.

Ultimately it's down to the players. A basic fact is best players in Prem aren't English so why should England expect to be best team.

Whatever, I support England whoever is picked and whoever is manager(with exception of Alladyce obvs).

Real shame about Allardyce. He's got an image of a long-ball, bacon and egg sandwich, fight to the last ditch type manager, but in reality he was amazingly progressive and it's a shame he didn't get the job following Sven.

Allardyce was the first to properly use data analytics in English football, and it was a cornerstone of him taking tiny Bolton from the second division to the cusp of the Champions League. Allardyce's image and nationality ruined him as he never got a proper chance at a club with resources.

I'm concerned Dyche, a similarly fantastic manager with image and typecasting issues, could go the same way.

Allardyce did get a proper chance but blew it by being bent and greedy.

by Duty281 Fri 23 Sep 2022, 2:05 pm

GSC wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
alfie wrote:Well I didn't really expect to convince you , Duty

But I don't see how you can claim Southgate's results haven't been better than most of his predecessors : surely the definition of success is progress in major tournaments ? And you concede that he has exceeded most in that regard. Your opinion that this is all down to luck , etc , is subjective and open to debate , no ? I mean (for example) : "easy" draws, you say ... but he didn't manage to lose to Iceland...

To be clear : I am not suggesting the man should be immune from criticism. Even I don't always agree with some of the things he does ; but then I have no top level football experience so it is somewhat questionable whether my ideas would have any merit I don't suppose anyone else on here has top level playing/management credentials either - though of course that doesn't preclude everyone having opinions : just as long as we remember that that is all they are.

The argument that he has brought England a fair way , but isn't the right man to take the "next step" , is one for which I have more respect than this OTT "he's awful" stuff : I think that is something that will indeed be up for discussion after the WC ; but is probably best left until the appropriate time.

In any case I am sure the arguments will run and run : more concerned with waiting and watching what actually happens . And I would sincerely hope that even the harshest critics would actually prefer to see England get a good result rather than fail to give ammunition for their cause...

Spoiler:

Each to their own but I cant take the last argument seriously. 4-0 in a glorified friendly in the middle of a packed out 3 year schedule isn't on the same planet as losing a QF of a major tournament to Iceland in a game you were 1-0 up in after 5 minutes.

Fair, but I think the Nations League is better than a glorified friendly. I regard the Hungary result as a humiliation, one of the worst results in English football history, but can see that others don't view it as egregiously.

by Duty281 Fri 23 Sep 2022, 2:06 pm

mountain man wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
mountain man wrote:The Southgate bashing seems to be a national pastime, get lots of it on BBC HYSs but seemingly here as well.
Got England to WC semi and final of Euros(which they could/should have won). As it happens I thought his tactics in Euro final was poor, went way too defensive trying to defend lead instead of pressing for another possibly winning goal. Anyway, is there an oven ready replacement? Not really.

Ultimately it's down to the players. A basic fact is best players in Prem aren't English so why should England expect to be best team.

Whatever, I support England whoever is picked and whoever is manager(with exception of Alladyce obvs).

Real shame about Allardyce. He's got an image of a long-ball, bacon and egg sandwich, fight to the last ditch type manager, but in reality he was amazingly progressive and it's a shame he didn't get the job following Sven.

Allardyce was the first to properly use data analytics in English football, and it was a cornerstone of him taking tiny Bolton from the second division to the cusp of the Champions League. Allardyce's image and nationality ruined him as he never got a proper chance at a club with resources.

I'm concerned Dyche, a similarly fantastic manager with image and typecasting issues, could go the same way.

Allardyce did get a proper chance but blew it by being bent and greedy.

That was a shame. And it ushered in Southgate, so that's even worse.

by Duty281 Fri 23 Sep 2022, 9:43 pm

Another flat, lifeless, dismal performance from England, against a pretty mediocre Italy. Such is life under Southgate.

Five games. No wins. No goals from open play. Relegated. Southgate out. It's not too late to save England's World Cup chances.

People still support Southgate on here? If so, what does he have to do to lose such support? It's just so bad to watch at the moment.

"The last time before tonight England failed to win in five competitive games in a row was October 1992." - but Southgate thinks England are going in the right direction. Rolling Eyes

by Samo Fri 23 Sep 2022, 11:40 pm

Southgate was helped by a fairly easy run to the Euro finals, but he is definitely taking this team backward. He’ll still get the World Cup but dont see him lasting much longer after that. For a country like England 0 wins out of 5 is nowhere near good enough, and something like 700 minutes since their last goal?

The big question is who replaces him?

by Duty281 Fri 23 Sep 2022, 11:53 pm

Problem is he's got a contract until after the Euros in 2024, so the FA will have to shell out money if he doesn't want to go, which they've been reluctant to do in the past for underperforming managers (Capello and Roy stayed on past their sell-by-date).

Don't know who a replacement would be, but I'd take almost anyone. Potter is still the bookmakers favourite, but I can't see him leaving Chelsea in the near-future.

by alfie Sat 24 Sep 2022, 8:16 am

Didn't watch it . But obviously disappointing - except for those who apparently would actually prefer failures in order to keep bashing the manager...

One question : is it - just possibly - partly the fault of the players ?

Anyway I will not bother engaging in further discussion re Southgate (at least until after the WC) because minds are clearly made up.

As for England's immediate prospects : stats suggest they had some chances. Seems to me their main recent problem is that they can't score goals - fairly important flaw Smile

But really it has been down to Kane and maybe Sterling for a long time , has it not ? If they don't score , next best chance is a Maguire header which is probably why he keeps getting picked. Plenty of "experts" on line always suggesting that Foden , or Grealish , or someone else is the answer if they only got a chance ... but so far I can't recall a lot of end product . (Which is not to say these young fellows won't succeed in time : just get a little tired of hearing whoever was on the bench "would have won the game if only"...

Anyway , as I admit , I'm no expert so will exit back to the cricket board.

by Duty281 Sat 24 Sep 2022, 10:19 am

England can't score because Southgate sets them up too deep, so whenever England do get possession it's tough to do anything with it. A back five so that's one less creative player in the side. Southgate also instructs the 'wing-backs' to not push forward, so there's no width to any of England's attacks.

Don't recall England having any good chances last night, just speculative efforts. 0.4 on an xG statistic tells it all.

Still, I suspect we can use the excuse of 'glorified friendly' and the players are a bit tired, so it doesn't really matter. Then the World Cup happens and England beat Iran and the USA, then the draw opens up as it usually does for Southgate, and England squeeze past Ecuador and Mexico in the KO rounds getting England to another semi-final. All hail Southgate the genius once more.

by Duty281 Mon 26 Sep 2022, 6:55 am

From the interviews that Southgate is giving it seems he knows his time is nearly up. Judging from his demeanour, he seems to have lost all confidence and belief in his managerial and tactical abilities, and that's probably filtering through to the players.

I disagree with Southgate when he says his contract won't save him from the sack. It saved Capello and Roy.

Germany tonight at home. Appears that Southgate will once again be going for the ultra-negative back five. I wonder why England struggle to score?

The last window for the FA to remove Southgate before the World Cup ends in the next week. About 1% chance they do the right thing and give England some hope going into the World Cup. Presuming he stays for the World Cup it'll be two tournaments p!ssed away under an incompetent manager that England had a genuine chance of winning...the FA can't let it become three. He has to go by the end of the year.

by Duty281 Tue 27 Sep 2022, 9:20 am

3-3 last night. Odd game with England catching fire after going 0-2 down and nearly winning it, before Pope's error settled it at 3-3.

Southgate's back five is a terrible formation. Interestingly, it has never worked, but Southgate persists with it for every game against a big-name nation - not necessarily good teams. Just big names. Germany are not presently a good team, one win in six, but Southgate treats them as though they are. I'm starting to think he'll use the back five for when England play lower-ranked teams like Iran.

Maguire. Oh my. Maguire should not even be in the squad, never mind starting. He is probably the most overrated England footballer I've ever seen. At fault for the first two German goals. Why does someone not inform him that his technical ability is closer to that of Keown, and he's not a Beckenbauer or Rio type in the making? If you ever need to sum Southgate up, it's that he rates Tomori lower than both Dier and Maguire.

I'd like to have seen England try Tomori in a back-four with Stones, but that won't happen. Tomori probably won't make the squad owing to Southgate's cluelessness. I'm pleased that he appears to be favouring James at right-back over Trippier now, even if he doesn't utilise James correctly, but it wouldn't surprise me if he goes back to 'set-piece' Trippier for the World Cup KO games.

This terrible back-five formation also bunches everything in the middle. Foden has little space to display his talent, and Sterling looks off-form as well. England's best formation is either the 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 (mischaracterised as gung-ho football by some Southgate defenders in the media), but Southgate is untrusting of anything that displays attack or creativity. I suppose at the World Cup we want Winston Churchill, but instead we've got Iain Duncan Smith.

Southgate out. Looks like the groundswell of public opinion has now turned against him.

by Duty281 Tue 04 Oct 2022, 4:36 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
Duty281 wrote:We've also got the usual horrendous state of violence and intimidation at grassroots football which means a lack of referees (not unique to England).

It horrifies me, the level of intimidation at grassroots football. I occasionally pop down to my local non league team with my boys and some of the abuse directed at the lino is appalling. Way beyond banter. You get the usual "did you get the bus here with (insert opposition team name)" or " does your mum know you're out on your own". That is pretty amusing and generally harmless but then you get the "you're a f*cking c*nt, lino. You haven't got a f*cking clue you absolute w*nker" or words to that effect. There was some team from the midlands playing here the other week and there was this chap who disagreed with a decision the lino made and launched into a, quite frankly, disgusting tirade against him. Leaning over the hoardings, shouting at full volume, accusing him of being a "cheating c*nt" and "some kind of f*cking useless tw*t" were just a couple of comments. Someone then pointed out there were kids around at which point he apologised (not to the lino) and wandered off. At the end of the game, I saw him in the tunnel talking to someone. Turns out he was an official from the visiting side! I kid you not. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

It is sometimes appalling at youth level as well. The very fact there has to be a "Respect line" 1.5 metres back from the touchline as parents can't control themselves is bad enough but some of the stuff you hear even at little kiddies games is genuinely shocking. One of my daughters was playing in a game just before Christmas and there were a few meaty challenges flying in and I heard one of the mums from the opposition team tell her daughter to "stamp on the b*tch" next time" (not about my daughter I should add!). Fortunately, the safeguarding officer (yep, every team needs one present at all games!) from their team overheard it and told her to leave the playing area. She initially refused having denied saying it. Someone else spoke up and reiterated what she had said, at which point she apologised but still refused to leave as her daughter was playing. It got to the point where the coaches from the teams had to come round to her and tell her that the game wouldn't continue if she didn't leave. At which point she marched onto the pitch, grabbed her daughter by the arm and left. This was at at an U12's game! What hope has that poor kid got with a parent like that.

This will end with some poor young ref being knifed to death outside the changing room. That is the logical conclusion to the hatred and bitterness that appears to be rife at grassroots.

Further to this, referees are considering a strike after an appalling assault at the weekend:

Spoiler:

by Mind the windows Tino. Tue 04 Oct 2022, 6:16 pm

Disgusting. Football, despite being a unifying sport often, really does have the potential to bring out the scum in society.
I hope grassroots refs do strike but not sure where 'grassroots' begins. The non league team near me are Step 3 and the abuse of officials by players and fans is appalling. Goodness knows what it is like for Sunday football. Some parents at youth level are massive as*holes.
This will definitely end with a ref being killed at some point.

by dummy_half Wed 05 Oct 2022, 10:18 am

We won't take our kids (who are 11 and 7) to the local playground when the Sunday League footballers are playing because of the language and abuse the refs get. And this is in a nice middle class village in the Home Counties.

I'm currently coaching my daughter's U11 team, and at least at this level there are initiatives to try to improve respect for the referee, but it's difficult to quieten some of the parents, and it rubs off on the kids (and we have a couple of quite gobby kids in the team - we're getting close to having to suspend one).

by Mind the windows Tino. Wed 05 Oct 2022, 10:57 am

dummy_half wrote:We won't take our kids (who are 11 and 7) to the local playground when the Sunday League footballers are playing because of the language and abuse the refs get. And this is in a nice middle class village in the Home Counties.

I'm currently coaching my daughter's U11 team, and at least at this level there are initiatives to try to improve respect for the referee, but it's difficult to quieten some of the parents, and it rubs off on the kids (and we have a couple of quite gobby kids in the team - we're getting close to having to suspend one).

I also live in a village in the Home Counties. We could be neighbours for all we know! But totally agree on your sentiment. We are very careful where we take our younger kids re football games.

One on my daughters plays and is football obsessed. I take her to the non league team nearest to us on a Saturday when they are playing at home but I do it through gritted teeth and with the constant expectation that someone is going to say something awful within earshot. She also plays and I heard the coach the other day, very politely, ask a lady to take her dog off site (game was at a school and dogs strictly forbidden) and the way she reacted, you'd think he had asked her to euthanise the thing rather than just take it off a playing field that a couple of days later will be filled with kids. Such a ridiculous level of entitlement. To the coaches credit, he didn't really react and just politely reaffirmed his stance. She stropped off and didn't come back. No idea who was looking after her kid.

by dummy_half Wed 05 Oct 2022, 12:28 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
dummy_half wrote:We won't take our kids (who are 11 and 7) to the local playground when the Sunday League footballers are playing because of the language and abuse the refs get. And this is in a nice middle class village in the Home Counties.

I'm currently coaching my daughter's U11 team, and at least at this level there are initiatives to try to improve respect for the referee, but it's difficult to quieten some of the parents, and it rubs off on the kids (and we have a couple of quite gobby kids in the team - we're getting close to having to suspend one).

I also live in a village in the Home Counties. We could be neighbours for all we know! But totally agree on your sentiment. We are very careful where we take our younger kids re football games.

One on my daughters plays and is football obsessed. I take her to the non league team nearest to us on a Saturday when they are playing at home but I do it through gritted teeth and with the constant expectation that someone is going to say something awful within earshot. She also plays and I heard the coach the other day, very politely, ask a lady to take her dog off site (game was at a school and dogs strictly forbidden) and the way she reacted, you'd think he had asked her to euthanise the thing rather than just take it off a playing field that a couple of days later will be filled with kids. Such a ridiculous level of entitlement. To the coaches credit, he didn't really react and just politely reaffirmed his stance. She stropped off and didn't come back. No idea who was looking after her kid.

And then thoroughly checked the pitch for dog eggs... She sounds like the sort who wouldn't clear up after.

by Duty281 Sat 08 Oct 2022, 10:50 am

The sexiest of all draws happens tomorrow - Euro 2024 qualifying.

Spoiler:

Because of England's uselessness in the Nations League, they may be drawn against a tough team in qualifying such as Portugal, Spain, the Dutch or Italy. But as the top two qualify direct it shouldn't matter. 12 teams, including Scotland, are already guaranteed a play-off place at worst. Lots of teams can't be drawn together because of politics, geography or weather. All qualifying games will be squeezed into 2023.

by Duty281 Sun 09 Oct 2022, 11:44 am

England get Italy (!), Ukraine, North Macedonia and Malta. Haha, nice to join Italy again. Should be fairly simple to finish top two in that group.

Scotland get Spain, Norway, Georgia and Cyprus. Very tough for Scotland against Spain and Haaland, but I believe they're guaranteed a play-off at worst due to their Nations League performance.

Wales get Croatia, Armenia, Turkey and Latvia. Wales should get through that, but they did draw one of the tougher pot 4 teams in Turkey.

Republic of Ireland have a very tough group with Netherlands and France. Northern Ireland, a pot five team, managed to avoid anyone really tough, joining Denmark, Finland and Slovenia.

by Mind the windows Tino. Tue 11 Oct 2022, 2:22 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
Duty281 wrote:We've also got the usual horrendous state of violence and intimidation at grassroots football which means a lack of referees (not unique to England).

It horrifies me, the level of intimidation at grassroots football. I occasionally pop down to my local non league team with my boys and some of the abuse directed at the lino is appalling. Way beyond banter. You get the usual "did you get the bus here with (insert opposition team name)" or " does your mum know you're out on your own". That is pretty amusing and generally harmless but then you get the "you're a f*cking c*nt, lino. You haven't got a f*cking clue you absolute w*nker" or words to that effect. There was some team from the midlands playing here the other week and there was this chap who disagreed with a decision the lino made and launched into a, quite frankly, disgusting tirade against him. Leaning over the hoardings, shouting at full volume, accusing him of being a "cheating c*nt" and "some kind of f*cking useless tw*t" were just a couple of comments. Someone then pointed out there were kids around at which point he apologised (not to the lino) and wandered off. At the end of the game, I saw him in the tunnel talking to someone. Turns out he was an official from the visiting side! I kid you not. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

It is sometimes appalling at youth level as well. The very fact there has to be a "Respect line" 1.5 metres back from the touchline as parents can't control themselves is bad enough but some of the stuff you hear even at little kiddies games is genuinely shocking. One of my daughters was playing in a game just before Christmas and there were a few meaty challenges flying in and I heard one of the mums from the opposition team tell her daughter to "stamp on the b*tch" next time" (not about my daughter I should add!). Fortunately, the safeguarding officer (yep, every team needs one present at all games!) from their team overheard it and told her to leave the playing area. She initially refused having denied saying it. Someone else spoke up and reiterated what she had said, at which point she apologised but still refused to leave as her daughter was playing. It got to the point where the coaches from the teams had to come round to her and tell her that the game wouldn't continue if she didn't leave. At which point she marched onto the pitch, grabbed her daughter by the arm and left. This was at at an U12's game! What hope has that poor kid got with a parent like that.

This will end with some poor young ref being knifed to death outside the changing room. That is the logical conclusion to the hatred and bitterness that appears to be rife at grassroots.

Further to this, referees are considering a strike after an appalling assault at the weekend:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

by Duty281 Tue 11 Oct 2022, 3:58 pm

It's easily dealt with. Red cards for any abuse. Yellow cards for any dissent. Don't be afraid to make it two yellows for continual dissent. Important to start it at the PL level so it filters down to grassroots. Lengthy bans for abuse of officials. Lifetime bans for continual offences/assault.

The FA are just bricking it because the decline in referees could mean referee shortages for the Football League in the not-too-distant future. They didn't give a toss about referees when there was a plentiful supply.

Football does attract the scum of society, unfortunately.

by Lowlandbrit Tue 11 Oct 2022, 6:13 pm

Been to a couple of lower league EFL games, and came away shocked at the level of vitriol towards the officials each time. The more intimate the ground, the worse it seems to get. The way people act towards the linesmen when the ref(!) makes a decision they don't like is just bafflingy disgusting.

by Duty281 Fri 14 Oct 2022, 11:45 pm

Reece James a doubt for the World Cup with a knee injury. Walker may also miss some of the tournament through injury.

May reopen the door for Trent and Trippier.

by Duty281 Sat 15 Oct 2022, 9:01 pm

Confirmed that James will miss the World Cup.

by Duty281 Thu 16 Mar 2023, 2:25 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64978097

Maguire picked again. Doh

by dummy_half Fri 17 Mar 2023, 10:27 am

Duty281 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64978097

Maguire picked again.

The argument for the defence is that Maguire's form for England has been pretty decent. He does seem to perform better at international level than at top club level. Obviously he's fit and playing just about enough to have some match sharpness - something I would be more concerned with Kalvin Phillips for example. By the way, don't take this as me saying Maguire should have been picked, just why I think GS has picked him.

Looking at the squad though, the midfield and forwards groups are generally quite young with the exception of Henderson (a squad player / back up) and Kane (still our best centre forward). The defence is the area that looks a bit more questionable - no real issues with the selection of Chilwell and Shaw at left back, Reece James and Trippier (aging but in good form) for the right back spot. Stones gets in kind of by default, Guehi is inexperienced at the top level, but I have real concerns that we can't improve on at least one if not two of Maguire, Dier and Walker with younger players.

by GSC Fri 17 Mar 2023, 11:47 am

I'm with Duty now honestly. Maguire was a sensible pick given the short run up to the world cup and all the disruption involved in that. But now the goal is to build a new group for the next tournament England should really be moving on until he starts playing and finds some form for his club

by Duty281 Fri 17 Mar 2023, 12:11 pm

dummy_half wrote:
Duty281 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64978097

Maguire picked again.

The argument for the defence is that Maguire's form for England has been pretty decent. He does seem to perform better at international level than at top club level. Obviously he's fit and playing just about enough to have some match sharpness - something I would be more concerned with Kalvin Phillips for example. By the way, don't take this as me saying Maguire should have been picked, just why I think GS has picked him.

Looking at the squad though, the midfield and forwards groups are generally quite young with the exception of Henderson (a squad player / back up) and Kane (still our best centre forward). The defence is the area that looks a bit more questionable - no real issues with the selection of Chilwell and Shaw at left back, Reece James and Trippier (aging but in good form) for the right back spot. Stones gets in kind of by default, Guehi is inexperienced at the top level, but I have real concerns that we can't improve on at least one if not two of Maguire, Dier and Walker with younger players.

Maguire does do better at international level than at club level, but that's because of two reasons:

1) Generally, England are playing weaker teams than Maguire encounters in the Premier League. When England are playing Wales or Iran, Maguire looks the business. When it comes to a rare step-up, e.g. France, Maguire is found wanting.

2) Southgate accommodates Maguire by getting England to play deeper, to cover for his lack of pace, which is to the detriment of the team as a whole.

It just baffles me that Tomori, 25 years old, regular starter for a Champions League club, isn't even getting in the squad, whereas a benched Maguire and Dier are. I agree about Phillips, although England's depth in the centre of midfield is lacking. Walker's probably got enough in him for one more tournament, but I'd hope James is the starting right-back going forward.

by alfie Fri 17 Mar 2023, 12:49 pm

I may be dreaming ; but I wonder if Southgate wants a bit of "steady as she goes"for these first two qualifiers...and we may well see some experimentation in the "easier" games after Italy and Ukraine are out of the way ?
Guess we will find out in time...

by dummy_half Fri 17 Mar 2023, 3:38 pm

alfie wrote:I may be dreaming ; but I wonder if Southgate wants a bit of "steady as she goes"for these first two qualifiers...and we may well see some experimentation in the "easier" games after Italy and Ukraine are out of the way ?
Guess we will find out in time...

There may be some truth in that - IIRC, England haven't had any friendlies since the end of the WC, so no chance to try new players out in non-competitive games. But Southgate does generally appear to be quite conservative in his selections and this squad certainly doesn't do anything to change his image in that regard.

by Duty281 Fri 17 Mar 2023, 3:57 pm

alfie wrote:I may be dreaming ; but I wonder if Southgate wants a bit of "steady as she goes"for these first two qualifiers...and we may well see some experimentation in the "easier" games after Italy and Ukraine are out of the way ?
Guess we will find out in time...

Could be the case, but I don't think much is learnt from using experimental sides against poor nations, as it's easy to impress and look good v Malta. I remember when Tom Cleverley (remember him!) did well v Moldova, and overnight he was lauded as the solution to all England's woes, such as in the article below:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2012/sep/07/tom-cleverley-england-no10

I'd hope Southgate isn't worried about qualification as it really should be a simple task to finish in the top two of this group.

by Duty281 Thu 23 Mar 2023, 11:16 am

Good to hear that Southgate is expected to stick with the same tactical shape as v France; he's not going to revert to three centre-backs. Hopefully that particular formation will never be seen again.

by Duty281 Thu 23 Mar 2023, 9:58 pm

Job done v Italy and qualification secured. First half was some of the best I've seen of England, but the second half was a return to the Euro final.

Kane, Rice, Bellingham were all fantastic. Bellingham superb in the free role. Rice was stupendous with his defensive midfield work. Kane was strong throughout, and nice to see him take up residence at England's all-time record goalscorer.

Maguire was his usual terrible self, at fault for the goal. Phillips lacked sharpness and should have come off earlier. Grealish, surprise starter I think as Southgate has never shown he likes him that much, did poorly overall, and missed a golden chance which would have put the game out of reach.

by dummy_half Fri 24 Mar 2023, 10:05 am

Duty281 wrote:Job done v Italy and qualification secured. First half was some of the best I've seen of England, but the second half was a return to the Euro final.

Kane, Rice, Bellingham were all fantastic. Bellingham superb in the free role. Rice was stupendous with his defensive midfield work. Kane was strong throughout, and nice to see him take up residence at England's all-time record goalscorer.

Maguire was his usual terrible self, at fault for the goal. Phillips lacked sharpness and should have come off earlier. Grealish, surprise starter I think as Southgate has never shown he likes him that much, did poorly overall, and missed a golden chance which would have put the game out of reach.

Agree with much of that - definite game of two halfs. England could easily have been 3 or 4 up at half time, and then just didn't come out for the second half. Midfield were getting too deep defensively, perhaps because of Phillips's lack of match fitness, which invited pressure that we were nullifying much further up the field in the first half. Even coaching my U11s, we keep telling them there needs to be a target up front so you can get the ball out and upfiled (to be fair, Kane was excellent at this for much of the game, but the support ws too far away from him too often).

Maguire at fault for the goal, with a mis-placed pass and then an impulsive dive in to try to rectify things - from that point on though it was clinical from the Italian forwards.

Grealish had a bit of a stinker - not just missing the chance at the end of the first half, but there was one earlier where he should have been busting a gut to get on the end of a cross (I think was Kane on the right and Bellingham just didn't connect sliding in in the middle), and then had one where he got clear of the defence and fell over his own feet. No doubt he has some technical ability, but is he a bit of a one trick pony of taking the ball and looking for a foul?

by Duty281 Sat 25 Mar 2023, 9:51 pm

Scotland started with a fairly comfortable 3-0 over Cyprus, and Wales somehow burgled a draw away to Croatia, despite being dominated for virtually all of the game. Could be a crucial point.

by Duty281 Mon 27 Mar 2023, 3:00 pm

Very professional job from England yesterday. Maddison looked good on his first start, although there was no end product and I wasn't as awe-inspired as some pundits seem to have been. The real magic was delivered by Saka in the first half. Even with lots of competition for his place, he looks as safe as Kane and Pickford to be in the starting XI.

Doesn't look like NI will be making it. They lost at home to Finland, and couldn't capitalise on Denmark's surprise slip-up, where the Danes lost 3-2 to Kazakhstan.

by Duty281 Tue 28 Mar 2023, 9:54 pm

Scotland can surely book their tickets to Germany after defeating Spain 2-0 at home, allowing them to take charge of the group early on. Scotland well organised enough to shut out the same blunt Spain that we saw at the World Cup - 75% possession and doing nothing with it. I imagine the Spanish manager, who made 8 changes for this one, will be coming in for some criticism back home.

Wales also won, beating Latvia at home, so they've started off well. Great Britain to be fully represented at Euro 2024?

And I see Andorra actually managed a draw, away to Kosovo. That's a bit of a shock.

by Duty281 Sat 20 May 2023, 7:27 pm

The U20 World Cup starts today, hosted by Argentina (Indonesia were set to be the original hosts, but lost it due to political wrangling). England are in a group with Tunisia, Iraq and Uruguay; the first game for England being against Tunisia on Monday at 19:00.

England did actually win this competition back in 2017, but noticeable that none of the 13 players that featured in that 2017 final have actually gone on to be regulars in the senior side.

by dummy_half Tue 20 Jun 2023, 9:15 am

Duty281 wrote:Scotland can surely book their tickets to Germany after defeating Spain 2-0 at home, allowing them to take charge of the group early on. Scotland well organised enough to shut out the same blunt Spain that we saw at the World Cup - 75% possession and doing nothing with it. I imagine the Spanish manager, who made 8 changes for this one, will be coming in for some criticism back home.

Wales also won, beating Latvia at home, so they've started off well. Great Britain to be fully represented at Euro 2024?

And I see Andorra actually managed a draw, away to Kosovo. That's a bit of a shock.

Well, good group for Engand and they are well in control.
Scotlabd with two late goals v Norway to snatch a win and be on 9 points from 3 matches. Should be goo for qualification as long as they avoid any silly slip ups like tonight v Georgia. I'm assuming they'll lose to Spain in the reverse fixture, but otherwise can probably afford a couple of draws or one defeat and still finish solidly second in the group.
Tough for Wales now, with only 4 points from their first 4 matches - 10 more points might just be enough, but more likely will need to win all 4 remaining matches.

by GSC Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:50 am

Must be it for Page after a world cup that felt more like a retirement party for Bale and a qualification campaign that's already almost over?

by mountain man Tue 20 Jun 2023, 4:32 pm

England last night were simply fantastic. yes "it was only North Macedonia" but can only beat team in front of you. Just ask Armenia and Turkey...

Rashford excellent in first half but Saka was superb and regardless of opponent his second goal was class.

by dummy_half Wed 21 Jun 2023, 9:34 am

mountain man wrote:England last night were simply fantastic. yes "it was only North Macedonia" but can only beat team in front of you. Just ask Armenia and Turkey...

Rashford excellent in first half but Saka was superb and regardless of opponent his second goal was class.

They've had a few matches like that under Southgate - when it all clicks they are a very good side at beating moderate opposition. I know FIFA ranking aren't perfect, but we are ranked 5th at the moment, and were good enough to get to the last Euros final and WC quarter final, so we're a very decent side, just have a bit of a problem beating the other teams around and above is in the rankings.

We have a very good to excellent set of players to cover the attacking midfield and forward lines, a good enough goal keeper and left back. Walker at RB and the two central defenders still worry me against top level opposition, and RIce / Phillips / Henderson aren't true holding midfielders in the way that Kante for example is, so are less effective at covering for the relative weakness behind.

by mountain man Wed 21 Jun 2023, 10:17 am

The issue for England is the media hype them beyond expectation but fans are often relentlessly negative. Look how many call for Southgate to be sacked!

England ranking about right I'd say. They are capable of beating any team on day but until win a trophy possibly lack a bit of belief?

The biggest plus is this squad actually want to play for England and appear to put club allegiances aside, unlike the so called Golden Generation who have admitted they cared more for club than country.

Maguire is one who cops so much flak but for England he's always been good so I understand why he's picked.

Bellingham is a player who is developing into a potentially world class talent and with likes of Saka, Rashford and Kane England are blessed with good attacking goal scorers.

Eng could and should have won last Euros, tactics in 2nd half was wrong and they tried to defend a lead instead of going out to score another and seal it.

Mistakes are fine as long as learn from them. Southgate often criticised for being too defensive and that is justified at times but I still think he is right man for job.

by Duty281 Wed 21 Jun 2023, 10:45 am

dummy_half wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Scotland can surely book their tickets to Germany after defeating Spain 2-0 at home, allowing them to take charge of the group early on. Scotland well organised enough to shut out the same blunt Spain that we saw at the World Cup - 75% possession and doing nothing with it. I imagine the Spanish manager, who made 8 changes for this one, will be coming in for some criticism back home.

Wales also won, beating Latvia at home, so they've started off well. Great Britain to be fully represented at Euro 2024?

And I see Andorra actually managed a draw, away to Kosovo. That's a bit of a shock.

Well, good group for Engand and they are well in control.
Scotlabd with two late goals v Norway to snatch a win and be on 9 points from 3 matches. Should be goo for qualification as long as they avoid any silly slip ups like tonight v Georgia. I'm assuming they'll lose to Spain in the reverse fixture, but otherwise can probably afford a couple of draws or one defeat and still finish solidly second in the group.
Tough for Wales now, with only 4 points from their first 4 matches - 10 more points might just be enough, but more likely will need to win all 4 remaining matches.

Yep easy for England, thus far. Not too hyped about it. England almost always cruise qualification and usually put in some good performances along the way. It's the tournament itself where we want to see something good.

Scotland are on fire. Starting to think England/Scotland might be able to generate a tournament rivalry, for once. Maybe a QF next year?

I hexed Wales, but they're in truly bad shape now. Huge decline from 2016.

by Duty281 Wed 21 Jun 2023, 10:46 am

mountain man wrote:The issue for England is the media hype them beyond expectation but fans are often relentlessly negative. Look how many call for Southgate to be sacked!

England ranking about right I'd say. They are capable of beating any team on day but until win a trophy possibly lack a bit of belief?

The biggest plus is this squad actually want to play for England and appear to put club allegiances aside, unlike the so called Golden Generation who have admitted they cared more for club than country.

Maguire is one who cops so much flak but for England he's always been good so I understand why he's picked.

Bellingham is a player who is developing into a potentially world class talent and with likes of Saka, Rashford and Kane England are blessed with good attacking goal scorers.

Eng could and should have won last Euros, tactics in 2nd half was wrong and they tried to defend a lead instead of going out to score another and seal it.

Mistakes are fine as long as learn from them. Southgate often criticised for being too defensive and that is justified at times but I still think he is right man for job.

Agree with much of that, especially Bellingham who England should build their team around, but Maguire has had numerous poor performances for England and he's fallen out of favour at United, so should be nowhere near the squad, never mind starting.

by mountain man Wed 21 Jun 2023, 11:06 am

I disagree, Maguire usually good for England so I can understand why Southgate picks him.

Note I'm not a Man Utd fan(not a fan of any club just follow Eng).

by GSC Wed 21 Jun 2023, 12:44 pm

I don't mind Maguire being around the squad, would prefer England to be looking at other options now in the starting XI though. Maguire's been reliable for Southgate, gives him some flexibility on 2/3 CBs and given the nature of the international schedule, it's sensible to a consistent group.

To be honest these are some throwaway fixtures in a group England have probably already qualified from at the end of a long season when everyone wants to go on holiday. I'll settle for a professional performance

by **superflyweight** Wed 21 Jun 2023, 12:54 pm

Shouldn't these be the games (particularly Malta) where England look for potential replacements for Maguire and give some game time to others? Don't understand why Mings isn't being picked ahead of him.

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