Southgate's England and the next England manager

First topic message reminder :

Get to close the Allardyce thread in record time, now caretaker manager Southgate has a chance to stake his claim for the job, whilst we all discuss almost anyone else as the thought of Southgate worries many.

Portugal v Switzerland Weds June 5
Holland v England Thurs June 6
Final and third place play-off (yes, really) on June 9

Would have perhaps preferred the first semi-final, to get the maximum amount of rest and preparation, but it's a minor quibble. Nice to play the Dutch - the two haven't played in a competitive game for 23 years next June.

Duty281 wrote:Would have perhaps preferred the first semi-final, to get the maximum amount of rest and preparation, but it's a minor quibble. Nice to play the Dutch - the two haven't played in a competitive game for 23 years next June.

and what a game it was!

Blimey it has been 23 years ! Amazing how they've kept missing each other ...England sometimes seem to have played Croatia every other week

How quickly does Rice get the call from England now.

I like the look of him, and could bring that bit of dynamism to the CM roles that we currently lack with Dier/Henderson, so personally I'd be getting him in to take a look asap.

alfie wrote:Blimey it has been 23 years !  Amazing how they've kept missing each other ...England sometimes seem to have played Croatia every other week

There was a period where it was like that with the Dutch. And Poland. We seemed to play Poland every set of qualifiers in the 90s

Afro wrote:How quickly does Rice get the call from England now.

I like the look of him, and could bring that bit of dynamism to the CM roles that we currently lack with Dier/Henderson, so personally I'd be getting him in to take a look asap.

Should be immediately, he’s the best central midfielder we’ve got.

Goalkeepers:
Jordan Pickford, Jack Butland, Tom Heaton

Defenders:
Trent Alexander Arnold, Ben Chilwell, Michael Keane, Harry Maguire, Danny Rose, Luke Shaw, John Stones, James Tarkowski, Kieran Trippier, Kyle Walker

Midfielders:
Ross Barkley, Dele Alli, Fabian Delph, Eric Dier, Jordan Henderson, Ruben Loftus-Cheek, Declan Rice

Forwards:
Harry Kane, Marcus Rashford, Jadon Sancho, Raheem Sterling, Callum Wilson

Hopefully Rice goes straight into the starting XI.

Could argue Southgate has been a little kind to Butland, RLC, Delph, Trippier, Keane and Tarkowski.

Probably a little too soon in Gareth's eyes for Ward-Prowse, whilst I still think Will Hughes is being mugged not getting in that squad with a couple of those midfielders around. Angus Gunn, Wan-Bissaka and a couple others are in and around things, but it may be a little too early for Southgate to jettison some of the lads who have played so well for him.

Having essentially four defensive midfielders in Rice, Dier, Henderson and Delph is stupid

Well, if he's playing 4-2-3-1, he's got 2 deeper midfielders and that means he's got 2 and cover for both (or can play different players in different games).

Just to reiterate, Rice should be starting.

Dolph,

As a West Ham fan, I was just wondering if you think Rice should start for England or not? Not sure i've seen your thoughts on it?

I’ve heard tell that I’m sending mixed messages, so I’ll make my stance clear:

He’s our best central midfielder (in terms of a real one, not an attacking midfielder) and has to play.

England: Pickford, Walker, Maguire, Keane, Chilwell, Dier, Henderson, Alli, Sancho, Sterling, Kane.
Subs: Trippier, Heaton, Rose, Tarkowski, Rice, Ward-Prowse, Barkley, Wilson, Hudson-Odoi, Butland.

Good to see Sancho getting a start. Electric attacking three. Plenty of width. The Czechs are probably the toughest opponents in England's group, but on paper they look a very average side.

The road to Wem-ber-lee begins. Only 478 days until the final of Euro 2020.

5-0 England. Absolute cruise against a pathetic opposition who didn't want to do anything.

The hype machine will start to crank into overdrive at this rate.

I thought the scoreline was a bit better than the performance, although as Duty says above, the Czechs showed little inclination to do anything but negate England.

First goal was an excellent pass from Kane and good goal-scorer's poaching from Sterling. Really a Gary Lineker type of goal, which is no bad thing for Sterling, getting in to the 6 yard box.

Penalty was a bit soft - Sterling wasn't beating the keeper to the ball, but the defenders did chop him off.

Third again was good play and a confident finish from Sterling. The sort of chance he was missing 6 months ago, but a couple of international goals and improving self-confidence make a big difference.

Forth was a good build up and then a lucky deflection.

5th - nice work from Hudson-Odoi, who looked at home at this level, and then a howler from the defender to turn the rebound inside the post.

We'll have games where we play better and only score a couple. The good thing though was that we had enough creativity and guile to score against a negative opponent - something we have at times struggled with.

Dier getting injured and Barkley coming on was a blessing in disguise - don't need two DMs in a game against a side like this who are clearly coming to sit in and defend. Hopefully Southgate learns it should be one of Dier/Henderson in these games, not both.

Sterling, Sancho, Barkley, Alli, Kane all had decent to good games - as Dummy says Hudson Odoi looked decent coming off the bench too. We really do have some damn good attacking players both playing and coming through

Does he play a team together for qualifiers that wins these games but doesn't prepare the team for what they'll need?

They will need two defensive-minded midfielders against good teams, so Rice/Dier and then Henderson/Barkley would seem the play. Rice and Winks could work, but seems like a harder runner like Henderson would be good alongside a Rice.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Does he play a team together for qualifiers that wins these games but doesn't prepare the team for what they'll need?

They will need two defensive-minded midfielders against good teams, so Rice/Dier and then Henderson/Barkley would seem the play. Rice and Winks could work, but seems like a harder runner like Henderson would be good alongside a Rice.

Why do they need two DMs even against the “good” sides?

Well, I suppose first problem is the term DM, really. I don’t think Henderson and Dier/Rice play similarly, Henderson certainly wouldn’t play as deep as either partner there. So any pairing would leave you with one “DM” and another who is more your natural “CM” fit. I think we need a holder and a worker.

The reason for that is, at the moment at least, it would appear we’re gonna have 4 attacking talents up top who don’t wanna do a lot of defending if the first press is beaten. Sterling, Rashford, Sancho, Alli, Lingard - it’ll be 4 from them, it seems, and only the latter two are gonna get involved a bit deeper defensively without it negating a lot of what they do.

We also have full backs that are generally better going forward and huge parts of our arsenal too.

Add in that arguably the weakest area of our team is centre back, you’d want good protection. Having a holder and a link man who is a harder working, that gives a good protection.

Further to that, we aren’t the finished article by any means and shouldn’t get arrogant to think we just go gung ho and teams will be terrified of us. This isn’t a side as good as Man City, who generally get away with letting Fernandinho do anything to anchor.

Generally, a good 4-2-3-1 has two in there with some defensive nous. I don’t think Barkley has it, nor am I sure he’s so good he needs to be included. Winks might be a more progressive Henderson in terms of passing.

However, Henderson and Rice would be a good combo of players who don’t just pass sideways. I would put that as another reason Rice goes in above Dier: he passes forward with either foot very willingly.

As such, without an altogether outstanding alternative to it, I think the best route is with two in there. I don’t know whether you’re assuming I mean two sitters - I don’t. But we had to go into the World Cup with a back five, got our pants pulled down by Croatia’s far superior midfield and whilst we have developed further, we aren’t the best team in Europe.

Even the world champions sacrificed a bit of flair to put in Matuidi, who whilst not a central midfielder, was used to add solidity. That’s in a team that had Pogba rather than someone like Barkley and also Kante, who is possibly 3 people. Play to our strengths by giving them a platform to play on

England: Pickford, Walker, Keane, Maguire, Rose, Rice, Barkley, Alli, Hudson-Odoi, Sterling, Kane.

Henderson/Dier/Sancho all taken out of the first XI due to injury. Rose also replaces Chilwell.

Montenegro have been awkward opponents for England in the past, but their recent record in international football is dismal.

Easy enough for England. Alli and Barkley's attacking movement is excellent. Plenty of width. Few lapses in concentration from the defence. Otherwise fine. If England can be bothered, they'll rack up 4 or 5.

Thank goodness this qualifying campaign is only 8 games, rather than the usual 10.

And it was 5. Henderson added some impetus against a stale and despondent Montenegrin defence. No more qualifiers for six months - England have to win a major tournament (kinda) in the meantime.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/apr/26/harry-kane-champions-league-final-mauricio-pochettino-tottenham-spurs

Kane might just be fit for the Nations League in the summer.

England: Pickford; Walker, Stones, Maguire, Chilwell; Barkley, Rice, Delph; Rashford, Sancho, Sterling.

Kane and Alli and Henderson on the bench. The English haven't won a semi-final in 53 years.

Netherlands: Cillessen; Dumfries, De Ligt, Van Dijk, Blind; De Roon, Wijnaldum, De Jong; Bergwijn, Memphis, Babel.

The Dutch have a strong defence, but look weak in attack and creatively.

If we were playing a side with more potency up front, we would of been punished by now. Horrible seeing Delph, Barkley and Rice.

1-0 courtesy of a surprising De Ligt error. England look incapable of holding onto possession, but the Dutch look equally clueless at doing anything with possession.

1-1 De Ligt

Been coming for a while.

Mostly awful second half from England. Only responded to Dutch dominance when they equalised. Very marginal offside prevented England winning. Might just hang on for penalties?

Embarrassing stuff

Stones, Walker & Maguire are all accidents waiting to happen

Made De Ligt's error look like highly astute defending.

I don't mind defences playing out from the back...if they have the actual ability to do it! No use playing like Rio Ferdinand when you have the technical skill of Martin Keown.

3-1 - Truly embarrassing defending

Nations League dream is over. Self-inflicted, but always felt Holland were marginally the better side. I’d expect Portugal to put away the Dutch, who are distinctly average, bar Van Dijk, De Ligt and De Jong

It seems that England haven't fully learnt some lessons.

We can get to the Semi's but it seems that we suffer from some type of stumbling block.

I suppose it's a case of time will tell if we manage to get to an actual final stage of a tournament.

Give it another 5 to 10 years and maybe we'll finally do it.

Until we have a midfield, who can actually control, and dictate games, we won’t win anything. Simple as that.

Our weakness last year, that we covered and changed formation for, was the defence. Our centre backs aren’t good. Since then, Stones has become fourth choice at City. He was a shambles all night long. Concentration lacking.

Barkley is a lovely looking player but an individual. Multiple times he’s held the ball too long with options free, breaking the way England play in midfield. He plays lazy passes backwards and deserved to get caught out finally on the third goal. He’s lovely in their half, but still lacks discipline playing deep. Not Rice’s best game, but a little harder when the team is camped so deep. His stats are still decent, but think he’s still growing into his surroundings. There’s a few times he needed to scream at Barkley and he’d have done that at West Ham.

Sancho should score, and I’m not sure even I agree with the way VAR was used there, and I’m a huge fan. I like that cricket allows for minor error, umpire’s call etc and I think that would be a good inclusion. Linesman didn’t give it, it’s perceived distance of a small toe offside.

However, we weren’t good enough. Kane was off it and Rashford having to come off lost us the counter threat. A player like Maddison to come off the bench was required.

I also think we missed Henderson, who is a better partner for Declan in there.

A word for the much maligned Pickford, who was again very good. Plays his best for England

England 0-0 Switzerland FT

England win on penalties, and finish third.

Mount and Maddison to be called up for the coming squad. Pope to take Butland's spot as third choice 'keeper. Winks expected to get a recall.

I'd probably look at:

Pickford, Heaton, Pope

Trent, Walker, Gomez, Maguire, Mings, Keane, Rose, Chilwell.
(However, if Chilwell is injured, I'd just call up Wan Bissaka with the assumption Rose will do the job and AWB should be included in squads. I'd also be tempted to look at Godfrey over Keane, whilst if Stones is fit, I'd pick him and Mings with Gomez and Maguire)

Maddison, Mount, Rice, Henderson, Winks, Barkley, Lingard
(Choudhury should be on the fringes, as well as more time for Cantwell and Longstaff to be looked at. I don't think Barkley is worth it on club form, but has been decent for England. Similarly, he likes Lingard, but I'd question his inclusion. Done with Dier and Delph, but would bet good money they're in there. Alli hasn't been fit enough for Spurs, so it's questionable for me)

Sancho, Kane, Sterling, Rashford, Abrahams.
(Wilson or Abrahams. Agree with Wright's feeling that maybe Tammy should be left to train with Chelsea and keep improving without England pressure, so have no qualms with either being included. I don't mind Wilson)

Two home games with Bulgaria and Kosovo should be relative gimmes, so I think a few senior players should be left to sit on their injuries and/or lack of playing time. I really like Mings and think he's a real asset. May have missed some people.

I would guess that the names of Dier, Alli, Stones will all figure with Southgate, and that makes sense, but I wouldn't do it

Ashley Barnes also deserves a shout, but being 29 and at Burnley feel like two problems in this English setup

I forgot the Ox, suppose Southgate wants a look, and Trippier. Heard good things about his time so far in Madrid so it’s fair he has another crack. Walker unfit?

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Walker unfit?

Axed. He’s an absolute donkey. Can’t defend, and is a total liability. His foul ups alone, against Croatia and Holland, were reason enough to phase him out. As for Lingard’s inclusion, well that’s just laughable.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I forgot the Ox, suppose Southgate wants a look, and Trippier. Heard good things about his time so far in Madrid so it’s fair he has another crack. Walker unfit?

He's always unfit, isn't he?

But at least Declan Rice is in the squad.

Even Clive Tyldesley sounds bored about this one.

Kosovo are incredibly naive and England, a team perfectly suited to counter-attacking football (which bodes well for the summer), are ripping them apart. Very impressed with the front three, especially Sterling, and Rice who has an excellent range of passing. Qualifying has never been easier.

For a ‘naive’ side Kosovo are incredibly cynical. Almost their entire side booked. Complaining about playing with players ‘injured’, late tackles etc.

For all they played well. They are so difficult to like.

Should have been a red there too. Kosovo are a horrible side. Hope they don’t qualify.

Sloppy night, with clear complacency setting in after HT. Poor mistakes from Keane and Rice, who really should be nowhere near this side. Not much learnt, England are potent in attack, average in midfield, and poor defensively.

Just John wrote:Sloppy night, with clear complacency setting in after HT. Poor mistakes from Keane and Rice, who really should be nowhere near this side. Not much learnt, England are potent in attack, average in midfield, and poor defensively.

That's possibly the first time I've ever seen him misplace a pass like that (one would assume due to not being used to being 5-1 up ever!) but he's still getting through convincingly more defensive contributions than anyone else and anchors the midfield well. Few interceptions in that game that completely killed dangerous moments. All as a 20 year old in his first few caps for this side.

The mistake lowered his performance, but otherwise he's done exactly what was asked of him and what is needed for that midfield.

Issue at the moment is Henderson, who doesn't appear to have a role. Not huge on Barkley either, who flits between interesting to awful.

I see the merit in giving Rice time in that role, I'm a Winks fan but think Rice offers a more destructive option - look at the tackle he put in that led to the first Sancho goal. As the nominal defensive midfielder, Rice has to take some of the blame for the weakness at the back in this game

I think Henderson is a waste of space on a football pitch, but he's not going anywhere anytime soon due to his club's success. I want to see Mount / Maddison in the position Barkley is playing, they would both appear to offer more speed of foot, thought and technical ability. Hope we see that in the next set of games

I like Winks, but I don’t think he’d make the defensive contributions of Rice. Both are better than Dier. I’d play Winks next to Rice and someone slightly ahead of them.

Henderson just doesn’t seem to have a role.

I do think it’s hard to judge on these games as the midfield is playing to form a style that isn’t needed against these teams. They are needed to give the platform for the front three (four if changed) against tougher opposition. Henderson’s ability to break from deep and Rice’s play with the defence will be even more important.

Barkley does things in our half that are often lackadaisical