WRU's latest blunder, or is it the Pro12's fault ?

Well this is a bit of a farce isn't it ? The next round of Pro12 fixtures, the welsh derbies, will clash with Rob Howley's Wales training camp, are the team Wales players going to be released for these fixtures ? I would not have thought so.

Cardiff Blues take on the Scarlets at the Arms Park on Friday October 28, with the Ospreys entertaining the Dragons at the Liberty Stadium the following day.They should be two of the most eagerly awaited games of the season, with derbies always creating great interest and drawing big crowds.But they are set to be devalued with the Welsh leading lights absent from the games amid what appears to be a scheduling calamity.That’s because they will be otherwise engaged in Wales’ 13-day training camp ahead of the opening autumn international against Australia on November 5.

P.S, does this affect the Irish derbies as well ?

Ulster V Munster
Leinster V Connacht

Are the Irish players in with the national side at the same time ?

Also your Australia money grab is the same weekend as a Pro 12 weekend. Scarlets host Glasgow and are like to be missing 6-8 players. Ospreys go to Munster and Cardiff go to Treviso. That could be an ugly weekend for Welsh club rugby.

Hazel Sapling wrote:Also your Australia money grab is the same weekend as a Pro 12 weekend. Scarlets host Glasgow and are like to be missing 6-8 players. Ospreys go to Munster and Cardiff go to Treviso. That could be an ugly weekend for Welsh club rugby.

Those games do not generate the same interest as the Welsh derbies though.

LordDowlais wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:Also your Australia money grab is the same weekend as a Pro 12 weekend. Scarlets host Glasgow and are like to be missing 6-8 players. Ospreys go to Munster and Cardiff go to Treviso. That could be an ugly weekend for Welsh club rugby.

Those games do not generate the same interest as the Welsh derbies though.

Maybe they feel the derbies will still attract the crowds minus the big names, less impact on revenues so it would be smart business

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:Also your Australia money grab is the same weekend as a Pro 12 weekend. Scarlets host Glasgow and are like to be missing 6-8 players. Ospreys go to Munster and Cardiff go to Treviso. That could be an ugly weekend for Welsh club rugby.

Those games do not generate the same interest as the Welsh derbies though.

Maybe they feel the derbies will still attract the crowds minus the big names, less impact on revenues so it would be smart business

Are the provinces affected in the same manner ? Or are the players not in Irish training camps ?

Hazel Sapling wrote:Also your Australia money grab is the same weekend as a Pro 12 weekend. Scarlets host Glasgow and are like to be missing 6-8 players. Ospreys go to Munster and Cardiff go to Treviso. That could be an ugly weekend for Welsh club rugby.

As its a week before the internationals, wouldnt the Irish, Italian and Scottish international players be with their national set ups instead of the clubs?

Also i thought Ireland played in America that week?

Don't training camps always clash with league fixtures?  I mean, the international sides don't just get the players for the window when AIs are played.  They get them beforehand to do some training with them.  And before the AI weeks are normal Pro12 weeks.  So they'll train with Wales during the week and join up for their regional fixtures on the weekends.

Griff wrote:Don't training camps always clash with league fixtures?  I mean, the international sides don't just get the players for the window when AIs are played.  They get them beforehand to do some training with them.  And before the AI weeks are normal Pro12 weeks.  So they'll train with Wales during the week and join up for their regional fixtures on the weekends.

I hope your right Griff.

Hazel Sapling wrote:Also your Australia money grab is the same weekend as a Pro 12 weekend. Scarlets host Glasgow and are like to be missing 6-8 players. Ospreys go to Munster and Cardiff go to Treviso. That could be an ugly weekend for Welsh club rugby.

Aye but then all players would've been in camp regardless if Team Wales stuck to the correct windows.

I'm sure they do Monday to Wednesday/Thursday in camp then back to their clubs for the weekend.

LordDowlais wrote:Well this is a bit of a farce isn't it ? The next round of Pro12 fixtures, the welsh derbies, will clash with Rob Howley's Wales training camp, are the team Wales players going to be released for these fixtures ? I would not have thought so.

Cardiff Blues take on the Scarlets at the Arms Park on Friday October 28, with the Ospreys entertaining the Dragons at the Liberty Stadium the following day.They should be two of the most eagerly awaited games of the season, with derbies always creating great interest and drawing big crowds.But they are set to be devalued with the Welsh leading lights absent from the games amid what appears to be a scheduling calamity.That’s because they will be otherwise engaged in Wales’ 13-day training camp ahead of the opening autumn international against Australia on November 5.

This always happens with the Irish derbies, every year around Christmas time. Its fair enough in my opinion. You can't expect international players to just turn up and gel a week before the test match and with 22 games its inevitable that some will be missed.

Players credit the preparation in those windows with helping them challenge for Six Nations, which is the tournament that keeps the lights on, so so it goes.

LD, think you've mispelt something there, isn't is usually the fault of the PrO'12.

With inter-pros weekend and two european cup weekends already in October, there will need to be an element of squad rotation anyway in most pro12 sides. I'd be expecting Leinster to be starting the equivalent game with fringe Irish travelling squad players with fringe matchday squad players on the bench. Benches will probably be given 30 minutes of play also. The Irish coaches will use those matches as final decision factors.

As long as no one thinks doing judo is a good idea, it should be OK

Agreed.

Until there's a shorter league season or timing of internationals shift this is the outcome.

And the reported proposals for changing European Cup schedule with a start in October is going to reinforce that. Unless the windows shift to after club season.

I see Rob Howley is having a dig at the Pro12 over this. He is questioning the Pro12 organising, saying that the Wales fixtures were released December 2015, and the Pro12 released their fixtures June 2016, he is affectively blaming the Pro12.

LordDowlais wrote:I see Rob Howley is having a dig at the Pro12 over this. He is questioning the Pro12 organising, saying that the Wales fixtures were released December 2015, and the Pro12 released their fixtures June 2016, he is affectively blaming the Pro12.

And the AP don't allow players to be released outside test windows yet the WRU are expecting and begging for AP players to be released, so it seems the WRU are expecting everybody to dance to their tune.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I see Rob Howley is having a dig at the Pro12 over this. He is questioning the Pro12 organising, saying that the Wales fixtures were released December 2015, and the Pro12 released their fixtures June 2016, he is affectively blaming the Pro12.

And the AP don't allow players to be released outside test windows yet the WRU are expecting and begging for AP players to be released, so it seems the WRU are expecting everybody to dance to their tune.

Marty the WRU are begging nobody, it was mentioned in the PC yesterday, that they had had no conversations with PRL or the clubs concerned, the information was given by the players concerned.

wayne wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I see Rob Howley is having a dig at the Pro12 over this. He is questioning the Pro12 organising, saying that the Wales fixtures were released December 2015, and the Pro12 released their fixtures June 2016, he is affectively blaming the Pro12.

And the AP don't allow players to be released outside test windows yet the WRU are expecting and begging for AP players to be released, so it seems the WRU are expecting everybody to dance to their tune.

Marty the WRU are begging nobody, it was mentioned in the PC yesterday, that they had had no conversations with PRL or the clubs concerned, the information was given by the players concerned.

'the WRU are understood to be offering financial compensation in line with that paid by the RFU for England players, or an agreement to return players to the clubs for the Premiership round when they play Japan on November 19.'

marty2086 wrote:

wayne wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I see Rob Howley is having a dig at the Pro12 over this. He is questioning the Pro12 organising, saying that the Wales fixtures were released December 2015, and the Pro12 released their fixtures June 2016, he is affectively blaming the Pro12.

And the AP don't allow players to be released outside test windows yet the WRU are expecting and begging for AP players to be released, so it seems the WRU are expecting everybody to dance to their tune.

Marty the WRU are begging nobody, it was mentioned in the PC yesterday, that they had had no conversations with PRL or the clubs concerned, the information was given by the players concerned.

'the WRU are understood to be offering financial compensation in line with that paid by the RFU for England players, or an agreement to return players to the clubs for the Premiership round when they play Japan on November 19.'

The WRU are happy to give money to English rugby so a few players can play a game against Australia? That doesn't sound like great business!

marty2086 wrote:

wayne wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I see Rob Howley is having a dig at the Pro12 over this. He is questioning the Pro12 organising, saying that the Wales fixtures were released December 2015, and the Pro12 released their fixtures June 2016, he is affectively blaming the Pro12.

And the AP don't allow players to be released outside test windows yet the WRU are expecting and begging for AP players to be released, so it seems the WRU are expecting everybody to dance to their tune.

Marty the WRU are begging nobody, it was mentioned in the PC yesterday, that they had had no conversations with PRL or the clubs concerned, the information was given by the players concerned.

'the WRU are understood to be offering financial compensation in line with that paid by the RFU for England players, or an agreement to return players to the clubs for the Premiership round when they play Japan on November 19.'

Understood, FFS UNDERSTOOOD, Howleys words were we've had NO formal conversations with any of the relevant clubs on this issue.
Please don't put in things that are not there, the players realise if they want to continue their International career unbroken, then they have to have this clause put in to their contract, and obviously the clubs must be happy to do so, even allowing for PRL sanctions, it would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall at the relevant PRL meeting if Faletau was caught up for this game to see what would have been Bruce Craig's response as he is one of the PRL's bigwigs

wayne wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

wayne wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I see Rob Howley is having a dig at the Pro12 over this. He is questioning the Pro12 organising, saying that the Wales fixtures were released December 2015, and the Pro12 released their fixtures June 2016, he is affectively blaming the Pro12.

And the AP don't allow players to be released outside test windows yet the WRU are expecting and begging for AP players to be released, so it seems the WRU are expecting everybody to dance to their tune.

Marty the WRU are begging nobody, it was mentioned in the PC yesterday, that they had had no conversations with PRL or the clubs concerned, the information was given by the players concerned.

'the WRU are understood to be offering financial compensation in line with that paid by the RFU for England players, or an agreement to return players to the clubs for the Premiership round when they play Japan on November 19.'

Understood, FFS UNDERSTOOOD, Howleys words were we've had NO formal conversations with any of the relevant clubs on this issue.
Please don't put in things that are not there, the players realise if they want to continue their International career unbroken, then they have to have this clause put in to their contract, and obviously the clubs must be happy to do so, even allowing for PRL sanctions, it would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall at the relevant PRL meeting if Faletau was caught up for this game to see what would have been Bruce Craig's response as he is one of the PRL's bigwigs  

Formal? So they've had conversations?

It also not the clubs decision as Saints got in trouble for releasing North before so they have to go through PRL

marty2086 wrote:

wayne wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

wayne wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I see Rob Howley is having a dig at the Pro12 over this. He is questioning the Pro12 organising, saying that the Wales fixtures were released December 2015, and the Pro12 released their fixtures June 2016, he is affectively blaming the Pro12.

And the AP don't allow players to be released outside test windows yet the WRU are expecting and begging for AP players to be released, so it seems the WRU are expecting everybody to dance to their tune.

Marty the WRU are begging nobody, it was mentioned in the PC yesterday, that they had had no conversations with PRL or the clubs concerned, the information was given by the players concerned.

'the WRU are understood to be offering financial compensation in line with that paid by the RFU for England players, or an agreement to return players to the clubs for the Premiership round when they play Japan on November 19.'

Understood, FFS UNDERSTOOOD, Howleys words were we've had NO formal conversations with any of the relevant clubs on this issue.
Please don't put in things that are not there, the players realise if they want to continue their International career unbroken, then they have to have this clause put in to their contract, and obviously the clubs must be happy to do so, even allowing for PRL sanctions, it would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall at the relevant PRL meeting if Faletau was caught up for this game to see what would have been Bruce Craig's response as he is one of the PRL's bigwigs  

Formal? So they've had conversations?

It also not the clubs decision as Saints got in trouble for releasing North before so they have to go through PRL

PRL is the clubs.
The argument has always been that until the WRU match the compensation and insurance they have under the EPS they wont release outside the global windows. Its hardly an unreasonable stance.
Nor is it unreasonable for Howley to get frustrated by this and the WRU or other boards to consider their options in making payments and getting an agreement with PRL.

wayne wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

wayne wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I see Rob Howley is having a dig at the Pro12 over this. He is questioning the Pro12 organising, saying that the Wales fixtures were released December 2015, and the Pro12 released their fixtures June 2016, he is affectively blaming the Pro12.

And the AP don't allow players to be released outside test windows yet the WRU are expecting and begging for AP players to be released, so it seems the WRU are expecting everybody to dance to their tune.

Marty the WRU are begging nobody, it was mentioned in the PC yesterday, that they had had no conversations with PRL or the clubs concerned, the information was given by the players concerned.

'the WRU are understood to be offering financial compensation in line with that paid by the RFU for England players, or an agreement to return players to the clubs for the Premiership round when they play Japan on November 19.'

Understood, FFS UNDERSTOOOD, Howleys words were we've had NO formal conversations with any of the relevant clubs on this issue.

I'm not sure that's a good thing!

LordDowlais wrote:I see Rob Howley is having a dig at the Pro12 over this. He is questioning the Pro12 organising, saying that the Wales fixtures were released December 2015, and the Pro12 released their fixtures June 2016, he is affectively blaming the Pro12.

It isn't a PRO12 issue. Why should PRO12 arrange their schedule around the WRU's 4th international? I would also doubt Howley has an issue with Welsh derbies being played at that time. PRO12 could have arranged the derbies at a different time, but there's clear arguments for and against.

The real argument hasn't anything to do with the PRO12. The real argument is about Welsh exiles being released from the AP during this extra Welsh international. The PRL are perfectly within their rights to refuse release. It's an issue of the WRU's on making, and it's all about making more cash for themselves.

Munchkin wrote:The real argument hasn't anything to do with the PRO12. The real argument is about Welsh exiles being released from the AP during this extra Welsh international. The PRL are perfectly within their rights to refuse release. It's an issue of the WRU's on making, and it's all about making more cash for themselves.

Then why did Howley mention the Pro12 ? Obviously he has some sort of issue with the league, otherwise he would not have mentioned it.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:The real argument hasn't anything to do with the PRO12. The real argument is about Welsh exiles being released from the AP during this extra Welsh international. The PRL are perfectly within their rights to refuse release. It's an issue of the WRU's on making, and it's all about making more cash for themselves.

Then why did Howley mention the Pro12 ? Obviously he has some sort of issue with the league, otherwise he would not have mentioned it.

He's Welsh it seems to be a habit

Oh well, how silly of me to even ask.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:The real argument hasn't anything to do with the PRO12. The real argument is about Welsh exiles being released from the AP during this extra Welsh international. The PRL are perfectly within their rights to refuse release. It's an issue of the WRU's on making, and it's all about making more cash for themselves.

Then why did Howley mention the Pro12 ? Obviously he has some sort of issue with the league, otherwise he would not have mentioned it.

He's been on the jungle juice?

What exactly did he say? I'm looking for context.

LordDowlais wrote:Oh well, how silly of me to even ask.

LD wind yer neck in and pick up a sense of humour

The gist of what he said is that the game against Australia (outside the Test window) had been scheduled months before the Pro12 fixture list was drawn up - as though that somehow makes the game against Australia slightly less outside Test window.

Also, Danny Wilson is questioning it as well:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/37697371

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The gist of what he said is that the game against Australia (outside the Test window) had been scheduled months before the Pro12 fixture list was drawn up - as though that somehow makes the game against Australia slightly less outside Test window.

A 4th Test is always going to be outside the window. Seems to me that Howley is engaging in deflection. Sure, it's the PRO12. No better scapegoat.

LordDowlais wrote:Also, Danny Wilson is questioning it as well:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/37697371

So, it isn't that the PRO12 have a game on, but that the Welsh games are derbies? I can see both sides of the argument. A Welsh derby is a cash earner and should have more of their stars available. They could have been put back. On the other hand the Regions would have to play other clubs while their internationals are missing.

Munchkin wrote:A 4th Test is always going to be outside the window. Seems to me that Howley is engaging in deflection. Sure, it's the PRO12. No better scapegoat.

Except, he does not need a scapegoat. If he wants, he can keep the players tied to team Wales, and not release them to the regions. What he is doing, is questioning the Pro12 and asking why they scheduled such important games at this date. The Welsh derbies are the games that generate the most income for the regions, they attract the most supporters, they now might have to be played with depleted sides, what advert is this for the Pro12 in Wales ?

Munchkin wrote:So, it isn't that the PRO12 have a game on, but that the Welsh games are derbies?

Yes, that's it, these are important games to the Welsh public, if the Pro12 wants to raise it's profile in Wales, then these games should be played at different times.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:A 4th Test is always going to be outside the window. Seems to me that Howley is engaging in deflection. Sure, it's the PRO12. No better scapegoat.

Except, he does not need a scapegoat. If he wants, he can keep the players tied to team Wales, and not release them to the regions. What he is doing, is questioning the Pro12 and asking why they scheduled such important games at this date. The Welsh derbies are the games that generate the most income for the regions, they attract the most supporters, they now might have to be played with depleted sides, what advert is this for the Pro12 in Wales ?

He can't. I'm sure the Regions negotiated player release during the 4th Test (RSA). If not, it is they who are to blame.

Again, the fault for that lies with the WRU's 4th Test. Sure, PRO12 could have scheduled the games at a different date but, primarily, the issue is one caused by the WRU's 4th Test.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:So, it isn't that the PRO12 have a game on, but that the Welsh games are derbies?

Yes, that's it, these are important games to the Welsh public, if the Pro12 wants to raise it's profile in Wales, then these games should be played at different times.

I'm sure I read somewhere that under the agreement with WRU and the regions, any National Dually contracted WRU player HAS to be released back to the regions for all Welsh derby games.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:So, it isn't that the PRO12 have a game on, but that the Welsh games are derbies?

Yes, that's it, these are important games to the Welsh public, if the Pro12 wants to raise it's profile in Wales, then these games should be played at different times.

The derby games aren't being played on the same week as any Wales games. I'm sure they can be released to play that weekend....

It the following weekend Irish and Welsh teams will be at a disadvantage (of their own doing).

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:So, it isn't that the PRO12 have a game on, but that the Welsh games are derbies?

Yes, that's it, these are important games to the Welsh public, if the Pro12 wants to raise it's profile in Wales, then these games should be played at different times.

I'm sure I read somewhere that under the agreement with WRU and the regions,  any National Dually contracted WRU player HAS to be released back to the regions for all Welsh derby games.

Rugby Fan a normally well informed poster on our board (Ospreys) has said the same thing, but it is not the kind of thing that you want to cause a load of grief about apparently.

the-goon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:So, it isn't that the PRO12 have a game on, but that the Welsh games are derbies?

Yes, that's it, these are important games to the Welsh public, if the Pro12 wants to raise it's profile in Wales, then these games should be played at different times.

The derby games aren't being played on the same week as any Wales games. I'm sure they can be released to play that weekend....

It the following weekend Irish and Welsh teams will be at a disadvantage (of their own doing).

Yes

I am hoping that some of the players will be released back as a decision maker for Howley, see how they perform, cement their place in the team for the following weekend, only trouble is, you would like them to avoid injury as well. A bit of a catch 22 really.

LordDowlais wrote:I am hoping that some of the players will be released back as a decision maker for Howley, see how they perform, cement their place in the team for the following weekend

He doesn't seem to have considered players' form so far this season, why would one more game make a difference?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I am hoping that some of the players will be released back as a decision maker for Howley, see how they perform, cement their place in the team for the following weekend

He doesn't seem to have considered players' form so far this season, why would one more game make a difference?

I did say, "I am hoping".

So to answer your title - WRU blunder. Agreed LD?

The answer to who's blunder it is lies with whoever agrees the fixtures on the regions behalf. It could be all 4 regions themselves. It could be PRW, or it could be a WRU exec on the Pro12 committee.

What we do know is that these set of derbies are now less attractive to people thinking of going to watch them and the television people that will broadcast them!

The ultimate blame lies with the WRU for once again scheduling a fourth Test outside the Test window.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The ultimate blame lies with the WRU for once again scheduling a fourth Test outside the Test window.

This is the first time this has happenned. The WRU have been arranging a 4th Autumn test for years. So facts would dispute that.

wolfball wrote:So to answer your title - WRU blunder. Agreed LD?

No. I would suggest it is more like six of one, and half a dozen of the other.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The ultimate blame lies with the WRU for once again scheduling a fourth Test outside the Test window.

This is the first time this has happenned. The WRU have been arranging a 4th Autumn test for years. So facts would dispute that.

Only because the fourth Test is usually the other side of the Test window.