WRU's latest blunder, or is it the Pro12's fault ?

First topic message reminder :

Well this is a bit of a farce isn't it ? The next round of Pro12 fixtures, the welsh derbies, will clash with Rob Howley's Wales training camp, are the team Wales players going to be released for these fixtures ? I would not have thought so.

Cardiff Blues take on the Scarlets at the Arms Park on Friday October 28, with the Ospreys entertaining the Dragons at the Liberty Stadium the following day.They should be two of the most eagerly awaited games of the season, with derbies always creating great interest and drawing big crowds.But they are set to be devalued with the Welsh leading lights absent from the games amid what appears to be a scheduling calamity.That’s because they will be otherwise engaged in Wales’ 13-day training camp ahead of the opening autumn international against Australia on November 5.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The ultimate blame lies with the WRU for once again scheduling a fourth Test outside the Test window.

This is the first time this has happenned. The WRU have been arranging a 4th Autumn test for years. So facts would dispute that.

But there's no denying that the 4th Test is at the root of the problem.

Munchkin wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The ultimate blame lies with the WRU for once again scheduling a fourth Test outside the Test window.

This is the first time this has happenned. The WRU have been arranging a 4th Autumn test for years. So facts would dispute that.

But there's no denying that the 4th Test is at the root of the problem.

Just to let everyone know, the man in charge when ALL these 4th International games have been arranged is Roger (DODGER) Lewis. If I'm not mistaken it carries on for a couple of years more.

To be honest I don't really see what this has to do with the Pro12. If anything it seems like an internal issue between the regions and the Union. I bet the Pro12 would absolutely love to have the Welsh derbies be massive events.

Notch wrote:To be honest I don't really see what this has to do with the Pro12. If anything it seems like an internal issue between the regions and the Union. I bet the Pro12 would absolutely love to have the Welsh derbies be massive events.

Easy Notch, you're going against the narrative with that post!

profitius wrote:

Notch wrote:To be honest I don't really see what this has to do with the Pro12. If anything it seems like an internal issue between the regions and the Union. I bet the Pro12 would absolutely love to have the Welsh derbies be massive events.

Easy Notch, you're going against the narrative with that post!

Boys, I'm sure that certain games for all countries are set in stone, probably the respective Unions and shareholders tell the Pro 12, they want particular games over specific weekends, why these games were put in on this weekend beggars belief, to have Welsh derbies in a period when there is a GUARANTEED 30 or so TOP players missing is crass mismanagement IMO.

Its an utter feckin farce whoever is at fault.

.

wayne wrote:

profitius wrote:

Notch wrote:To be honest I don't really see what this has to do with the Pro12. If anything it seems like an internal issue between the regions and the Union. I bet the Pro12 would absolutely love to have the Welsh derbies be massive events.

Easy Notch, you're going against the narrative with that post!

Boys, I'm sure that certain games for all countries are set in stone, probably the respective Unions and shareholders tell the Pro 12, they want particular games over specific weekends, why these games were put in on this weekend beggars belief, to have Welsh derbies in a period when there is a GUARANTEED 30 or so TOP players missing is crass mismanagement IMO.

So you're saying it's the fault of PRO12?, if what you say is true. I doubt it is.

Eliminate the 4th Test and problem would be solved. It's down to the WRU's insistence of the 4th Test. These issues are not the fault of the PRL or the PRO12. It's much closer to home.

I agree totally on the issue of the 4th AI game but surely the Union and Pro12 have discussions over fixtures and between them they could have come up with a different date?

Munchkin wrote:

wayne wrote:

profitius wrote:

Notch wrote:To be honest I don't really see what this has to do with the Pro12. If anything it seems like an internal issue between the regions and the Union. I bet the Pro12 would absolutely love to have the Welsh derbies be massive events.

Easy Notch, you're going against the narrative with that post!

Boys, I'm sure that certain games for all countries are set in stone, probably the respective Unions and shareholders tell the Pro 12, they want particular games over specific weekends, why these games were put in on this weekend beggars belief, to have Welsh derbies in a period when there is a GUARANTEED 30 or so TOP players missing is crass mismanagement IMO.

So you're saying it's the fault of PRO12?, if what you say is true. I doubt it is.

Eliminate the 4th Test and problem would be solved. It's down to the WRU's insistence of the 4th Test. These issues are not the fault of the PRL or the PRO12. It's much closer to home.

No Munchkin, you've misinterpreted my response exactly, if the PRW and WRU had told the Pro 12, not to put these games over this period, then they wouldn't have. A money making weekend of local derbies should have the benefit of all the top players playing and would be set in a weekend nowhere near International matches.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I agree totally on the issue of the 4th AI game but surely the Union and Pro12 have discussions over fixtures and between them they could have come up with a different date?

I don't know that they do. My understanding is that it is Welsh reps on the PRO12 who discuss such matters, and then it's the PRW/Regions CEO's who agree the schedule. PRW must also be held accountable as it is they which negotiate the RSA with the WRU.

There's also the fact that no Union can force any Club or Region to release player for Tests which are outside the window....

My main point is that regardless of who it is that agrees the schedule, it is ultimately the responsibility of the WRU for insisting on the 4thTest.

wayne wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

wayne wrote:

profitius wrote:

Notch wrote:To be honest I don't really see what this has to do with the Pro12. If anything it seems like an internal issue between the regions and the Union. I bet the Pro12 would absolutely love to have the Welsh derbies be massive events.

Easy Notch, you're going against the narrative with that post!

Boys, I'm sure that certain games for all countries are set in stone, probably the respective Unions and shareholders tell the Pro 12, they want particular games over specific weekends, why these games were put in on this weekend beggars belief, to have Welsh derbies in a period when there is a GUARANTEED 30 or so TOP players missing is crass mismanagement IMO.

So you're saying it's the fault of PRO12?, if what you say is true. I doubt it is.

Eliminate the 4th Test and problem would be solved. It's down to the WRU's insistence of the 4th Test. These issues are not the fault of the PRL or the PRO12. It's much closer to home.

No Munchkin, you've misinterpreted my response exactly, if the PRW and WRU had told the Pro 12, not to put these games over this period, then they wouldn't have. A money making weekend of local derbies should have the benefit of all the top players playing and would be set in a weekend nowhere near International matches.

It was a genuine question, wayne. I wasn't sure who it was you thought responsible.

I agree the Regions internationals should be playing, but maybe this is a one-off? I'm sure lessons will have been learned.

Munchkin wrote:

wayne wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

wayne wrote:

profitius wrote:

Notch wrote:To be honest I don't really see what this has to do with the Pro12. If anything it seems like an internal issue between the regions and the Union. I bet the Pro12 would absolutely love to have the Welsh derbies be massive events.

Easy Notch, you're going against the narrative with that post!

Boys, I'm sure that certain games for all countries are set in stone, probably the respective Unions and shareholders tell the Pro 12, they want particular games over specific weekends, why these games were put in on this weekend beggars belief, to have Welsh derbies in a period when there is a GUARANTEED 30 or so TOP players missing is crass mismanagement IMO.

So you're saying it's the fault of PRO12?, if what you say is true. I doubt it is.

Eliminate the 4th Test and problem would be solved. It's down to the WRU's insistence of the 4th Test. These issues are not the fault of the PRL or the PRO12. It's much closer to home.

No Munchkin, you've misinterpreted my response exactly, if the PRW and WRU had told the Pro 12, not to put these games over this period, then they wouldn't have. A money making weekend of local derbies should have the benefit of all the top players playing and would be set in a weekend nowhere near International matches.

It was a genuine question, wayne. I wasn't sure who it was you thought responsible.

I agree the Regions internationals should be playing, but maybe this is a one-off? I'm sure lessons will have been learned.

Haha, not if its got anything to do with the WRU they won't.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

wayne wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

wayne wrote:

profitius wrote:

Notch wrote:To be honest I don't really see what this has to do with the Pro12. If anything it seems like an internal issue between the regions and the Union. I bet the Pro12 would absolutely love to have the Welsh derbies be massive events.

Easy Notch, you're going against the narrative with that post!

Boys, I'm sure that certain games for all countries are set in stone, probably the respective Unions and shareholders tell the Pro 12, they want particular games over specific weekends, why these games were put in on this weekend beggars belief, to have Welsh derbies in a period when there is a GUARANTEED 30 or so TOP players missing is crass mismanagement IMO.

So you're saying it's the fault of PRO12?, if what you say is true. I doubt it is.

Eliminate the 4th Test and problem would be solved. It's down to the WRU's insistence of the 4th Test. These issues are not the fault of the PRL or the PRO12. It's much closer to home.

No Munchkin, you've misinterpreted my response exactly, if the PRW and WRU had told the Pro 12, not to put these games over this period, then they wouldn't have. A money making weekend of local derbies should have the benefit of all the top players playing and would be set in a weekend nowhere near International matches.

It was a genuine question, wayne. I wasn't sure who it was you thought responsible.

I agree the Regions internationals should be playing, but maybe this is a one-off? I'm sure lessons will have been learned.

Haha, not if its got anything to do with the WRU they won't.

You might be right, bedford I'm not exactly in love with my own Union at the moment, but that's another thread.

Munchkin wrote:

wayne wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

wayne wrote:

profitius wrote:

Notch wrote:To be honest I don't really see what this has to do with the Pro12. If anything it seems like an internal issue between the regions and the Union. I bet the Pro12 would absolutely love to have the Welsh derbies be massive events.

Easy Notch, you're going against the narrative with that post!

Boys, I'm sure that certain games for all countries are set in stone, probably the respective Unions and shareholders tell the Pro 12, they want particular games over specific weekends, why these games were put in on this weekend beggars belief, to have Welsh derbies in a period when there is a GUARANTEED 30 or so TOP players missing is crass mismanagement IMO.

So you're saying it's the fault of PRO12?, if what you say is true. I doubt it is.

Eliminate the 4th Test and problem would be solved. It's down to the WRU's insistence of the 4th Test. These issues are not the fault of the PRL or the PRO12. It's much closer to home.

No Munchkin, you've misinterpreted my response exactly, if the PRW and WRU had told the Pro 12, not to put these games over this period, then they wouldn't have. A money making weekend of local derbies should have the benefit of all the top players playing and would be set in a weekend nowhere near International matches.

It was a genuine question, wayne. I wasn't sure who it was you thought responsible.

I agree the Regions internationals should be playing, but maybe this is a one-off? I'm sure lessons will have been learned.

Dim Problemau Munchkin, I should have made myself more coherent.

Munchkin wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

wayne wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

wayne wrote:

profitius wrote:

Notch wrote:To be honest I don't really see what this has to do with the Pro12. If anything it seems like an internal issue between the regions and the Union. I bet the Pro12 would absolutely love to have the Welsh derbies be massive events.

Easy Notch, you're going against the narrative with that post!

Boys, I'm sure that certain games for all countries are set in stone, probably the respective Unions and shareholders tell the Pro 12, they want particular games over specific weekends, why these games were put in on this weekend beggars belief, to have Welsh derbies in a period when there is a GUARANTEED 30 or so TOP players missing is crass mismanagement IMO.

So you're saying it's the fault of PRO12?, if what you say is true. I doubt it is.

Eliminate the 4th Test and problem would be solved. It's down to the WRU's insistence of the 4th Test. These issues are not the fault of the PRL or the PRO12. It's much closer to home.

No Munchkin, you've misinterpreted my response exactly, if the PRW and WRU had told the Pro 12, not to put these games over this period, then they wouldn't have. A money making weekend of local derbies should have the benefit of all the top players playing and would be set in a weekend nowhere near International matches.

It was a genuine question, wayne. I wasn't sure who it was you thought responsible.

I agree the Regions internationals should be playing, but maybe this is a one-off? I'm sure lessons will have been learned.

Haha, not if its got anything to do with the WRU they won't.

You might be right, bedford  I'm not exactly in love with my own Union at the moment, but that's another thread.

I don't think many of us are, years ago when Carling described the RFU as 57 old farts he could have been describing any of them.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

wayne wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

wayne wrote:

profitius wrote:

Notch wrote:To be honest I don't really see what this has to do with the Pro12. If anything it seems like an internal issue between the regions and the Union. I bet the Pro12 would absolutely love to have the Welsh derbies be massive events.

Easy Notch, you're going against the narrative with that post!

Boys, I'm sure that certain games for all countries are set in stone, probably the respective Unions and shareholders tell the Pro 12, they want particular games over specific weekends, why these games were put in on this weekend beggars belief, to have Welsh derbies in a period when there is a GUARANTEED 30 or so TOP players missing is crass mismanagement IMO.

So you're saying it's the fault of PRO12?, if what you say is true. I doubt it is.

Eliminate the 4th Test and problem would be solved. It's down to the WRU's insistence of the 4th Test. These issues are not the fault of the PRL or the PRO12. It's much closer to home.

No Munchkin, you've misinterpreted my response exactly, if the PRW and WRU had told the Pro 12, not to put these games over this period, then they wouldn't have. A money making weekend of local derbies should have the benefit of all the top players playing and would be set in a weekend nowhere near International matches.

It was a genuine question, wayne. I wasn't sure who it was you thought responsible.

I agree the Regions internationals should be playing, but maybe this is a one-off? I'm sure lessons will have been learned.

Haha, not if its got anything to do with the WRU they won't.

BW, not sure when this Board have the responsibility to set these matches, they might not have it in the contract of the CEO, that he gets a BONUS, if he gets the DEBT down quicker as happened with the DODGER.

wayne wrote:

profitius wrote:

Notch wrote:To be honest I don't really see what this has to do with the Pro12. If anything it seems like an internal issue between the regions and the Union. I bet the Pro12 would absolutely love to have the Welsh derbies be massive events.

Easy Notch, you're going against the narrative with that post!

Boys, I'm sure that certain games for all countries are set in stone, probably the respective Unions and shareholders tell the Pro 12, they want particular games over specific weekends, why these games were put in on this weekend beggars belief, to have Welsh derbies in a period when there is a GUARANTEED 30 or so TOP players missing is crass mismanagement IMO.

Well, say they scheduled those games for weekends without derbies. I know for a fact that if it was Irish teams in the exact same situation, and we were playing the Welsh teams that weekend, there would be posters on here giving out about the missing players, saying it was evidence of Ireland not taking the league seriously etc. So doesn't it cut both ways? It seems fairer to me that if the Welsh regions and Union have this scheduling conflict (which really seems like it could be avoided tbh) that the games it affects don't impact on the other nations- and that means derby games. Before you jump on my back, bear in mind that a) the Irish teams go through exactly the same thing with our camp around the Christmas/New Year period and we always see the same debate about severely weakened teams so its not just a Welsh issue and b) I'm not actually criticising the Welsh teams here. This is just a conflict between the regions and the Unions. It does hit the league, but thats a general issue about there not being much wiggle room in the calendar

Surely though between them something could have been arranged.

The Pro12 themselves would want any game to get maximum bodies though the gate, likewise if the individual Unions have the Regions/Teams/Provinces interests at heart they would want the same.

Finally surely the teams involved would want their best players available.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Surely though between them something could have been arranged.

The Pro12 themselves would want any game to get maximum bodies though the gate, likewise if the individual Unions have the Regions/Teams/Provinces interests at heart they would want the same.

Finally surely the teams involved would want their best players available.

I don't think the Unions do have the interests of the individual teams involved, at least not as a paramount concern. The individual teams are a mechanism for providing players to play test rugby which brings in the income to keep the game afloat. Thats the view. Everything is secondary to success at international level as that is what keeps the lights on. It seems to me that in Wales this is particularly acute since the Union seems to have open contempt for the regions sometimes! All their eggs are in the test rugby basket.

It shouldn't be happening in that 4 games is too much, but now we're into debates which have been done to death.

profitius wrote:

Notch wrote:To be honest I don't really see what this has to do with the Pro12. If anything it seems like an internal issue between the regions and the Union. I bet the Pro12 would absolutely love to have the Welsh derbies be massive events.

Easy Notch, you're going against the narrative with that post!

Better a derby than not if you are missing Welsh internationals

Notch we have already played about 6 games, the last of which was a local derby, why couldn't this jumbo weekend been in say the 3rd or 4th, it would have helped the TW brigade in it being a trial match of sorts.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Surely though between them something could have been arranged.

Good one.

Anyway, autumn is here. Time to unfurl Dodger's Dragon and give it an airing.

Notch wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Surely though between them something could have been arranged.

The Pro12 themselves would want any game to get maximum bodies though the gate, likewise if the individual Unions have the Regions/Teams/Provinces interests at heart they would want the same.

Finally surely the teams involved would want their best players available.

I don't think the Unions do have the interests of the individual teams involved, at least not as a paramount concern. The individual teams are a mechanism for providing players to play test rugby which brings in the income to keep the game afloat. Thats the view. Everything is secondary to success at international level as that is what keeps the lights on. It seems to me that in Wales this is particularly acute since the Union seems to have open contempt for the regions sometimes! All their eggs are in the test rugby basket.

It shouldn't be happening in that 4 games is too much, but now we're into debates which have been done to death.

Like Gillette add blades, next up it'll be 5 if we're not careful.
Wish they'd understand that one or two is plenty enough ffs.

2015/16
Cardiff v Scarlets 11, 720 - highest of their home derbies bar the Big Day Out weekend
Ospreys v Dragons 9,247 - lowest of their 3 home derbies.

Just curious - did anyone comment on this when the fixture list came out? Or has it just cropped up now?

Pot Hale wrote:2015/16
Cardiff v Scarlets 11, 720 - highest of their home derbies bar the Big Day Out weekend
Ospreys v Dragons 9,247 - lowest of their 3 home derbies.  

Just curious - did anyone comment on this when the fixture list came out?  Or has it just cropped up now?

Dunno, but this kind of cr@p happens every autumn mun. You can set yewer watch to it.

LordDowlais wrote:I am hoping that some of the players will be released back as a decision maker for Howley, see how they perform, cement their place in the team for the following weekend, only trouble is, you would like them to avoid injury as well. A bit of a catch 22 really.

Do we know if any players are coming back to play for the welsh or irish teams yet?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I am hoping that some of the players will be released back as a decision maker for Howley, see how they perform, cement their place in the team for the following weekend, only trouble is, you would like them to avoid injury as well. A bit of a catch 22 really.

Do we know if any players are coming back to play for the welsh or irish teams yet?

Ours (Welsh) are supposed to be announced this afternoon after a training session.

Anyone know how long Woger contracted us to 4 AIs with UnderArmour for ?

The WRU have released players to the Ospreys and Cardiff but not Dragons or Scarlets.

Seems a bit of a farce to me this fixture.

RugbyFan100 wrote:The WRU have released players to the Ospreys and Cardiff but not Dragons or Scarlets.

Seems a bit of a farce to me this fixture.

FFS - we actually need our top players..

Lydiate, Baldwin, Lloyd Williams, Gill, Giles have been released and Cory Hill has been called up

I'm not sure I would have added Hill, his conditioning seems really poor and lock is a position where we aren't short of quality.

Further to this they should probably release Brown and Keddie back and perhaps they can get some game time.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Further to this they should probably release Brown and Keddie back and perhaps they can get some game time.

I don't think Brown and Keddie are in the Wales squad.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Further to this they should probably release Brown and Keddie back and perhaps they can get some game time.

I don't think Brown and Keddie are in the Wales squad.

I thought they weren't either but the WRU statement specifically mentions only Giles being released out of the four players called up to train. Unless Giles was only named due to the hype around him

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Further to this they should probably release Brown and Keddie back and perhaps they can get some game time.

I don't think Brown and Keddie are in the Wales squad.

They were supposedly called up train along with Giles and Giles has been released back to Ospreys like previously stated. I don't see the point in these lads hanging around and it's best they get some game time to actually be able to force their way into the international squad.

They aren't. Cory Hill a strange choice - maybe Ball's ribs are knackered.

True Raven wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Further to this they should probably release Brown and Keddie back and perhaps they can get some game time.

I don't think Brown and Keddie are in the Wales squad.

I thought they weren't either but the WRU statement specifically mentions only Giles being released out of the four players called up to train. Unless Giles was only named due to the hype around him

They aren't in the squad to be released in the first place. That's why they aren't mentioned.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

True Raven wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Further to this they should probably release Brown and Keddie back and perhaps they can get some game time.

I don't think Brown and Keddie are in the Wales squad.

I thought they weren't either but the WRU statement specifically mentions only Giles being released out of the four players called up to train. Unless Giles was only named due to the hype around him

They aren't in the squad to be released in the first place. That's why they aren't mentioned.

So why is it mentioned than Giles has been released back?

Why are you always making something out of nothing ?

WRU say -

Released Players:
Four Wales squad players have been released back to their respective regions for action this weekend.

Rhys Gill (Cardiff Blues)
Lloyd Williams (Cardiff Blues)
Scott Baldwin (Ospreys)
Dan Lydiate (Ospresy)

Additionally, Keelan Giles, who has been training with the squad, has been released back to play.

The players will link back up with the National Squad on Monday to continue preparations for the Under Armour Series.

Jesus Zombie Christ....

munkian wrote:Why are you always making something out of nothing ?

Who?

mikey_dragon wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

True Raven wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Further to this they should probably release Brown and Keddie back and perhaps they can get some game time.

I don't think Brown and Keddie are in the Wales squad.

I thought they weren't either but the WRU statement specifically mentions only Giles being released out of the four players called up to train. Unless Giles was only named due to the hype around him

They aren't in the squad to be released in the first place. That's why they aren't mentioned.

So why is it mentioned than Giles has been released back?

Where is this?

mikey_dragon wrote:

munkian wrote:Why are you always making something out of nothing ?

Who?

You ya flid.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37777245

mikey_dragon wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37777245

Hmm. Not sure why they've only released Giles' name in that case. Strange one. I can't see why on earth they'd keep the others that were "training with the squad". They said they added Cory Hill and released Giles. Maybe the other 2 have disappeared off the face of the earth as they appear to be in no man's land.

munkian wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

munkian wrote:Why are you always making something out of nothing ?

Who?

You ya flid.

Hardly. I commented on Hill's inclusion and also how I think some other additional players should also be "released back" (exact words) and I've stated why. I can't see where I made something out of nothing but I just don't see the point in some additional training players, specifically ones who don't have enough pro level experience. I think they'd be better off getting some of that experience with their regional team. I think you're having a strange moment here if this has somehow (and very strangely) bothered you. For someone who gets upset over PRL and RFU you're hardly in a position to criticise so stop being a silly old git. I'll accept your apologies.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37777245

Hmm. Not sure why they've only released Giles' name in that case. Strange one. I can't see why on earth they'd keep the others that were "training with the squad". They said they added Cory Hill and released Giles. Maybe the other 2 have disappeared off the face of the earth as they appear to be in no man's land.

Yeah that was pretty much my point but why some people get wound up over my stating it is beyond me. Some people...

Upset ? I corrected a glaring mistake. I'm sure you'll get over it and move on.

munkian wrote:Upset ? I corrected a glaring mistake. I'm sure you'll get over it and move on.

You're clearly upset over me making a valid case and questioning somebody who questioned me when I was correct. I think you have some issues. Why don't you just admit you were wrong to call me out and insult me, or are you too low of a person to do so?

I'm soooo, soooo, sorrrreeeee