England v South Africa, 12 November

First topic message reminder :

       
ENGLAND v SOUTH AFRICA
12 November 2016
14:30 GMT (UTC+0)
Twickenham Stadium, London

Live on Sky Sports 1

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

37 Played 37
12 Won 23
2 Drawn 2
23 Lost 12
592 Points 780

B. Recent Form

15 November 2014
Twickenham, London
28 – 31 to South Africa

24 November 2012
Twickenham, London
15 – 16 to South Africa

23 June 2012
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, Port Elizabeth
14 – 14 Draw

16 June 2012
Coca-Cola Park, Johannesburg
36 – 27 to South Africa

9 June 2012
Mr Price Kings Park, Durban
22 – 17 to South Africa

27 November 2010
Twickenham, London
11 – 21 to South Africa

C. Teams

ENGLAND 

Mike Brown (Harlequins); Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby); George Ford (Bath Rugby), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers); Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers); Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints); Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Billy Vunipola (Saracens).

Replacements: Jamie George (Saracens), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Te'o (Worcester Warriors), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby).

SOUTH AFRICA

Willie le Roux (Canon Eagles), Ruan Combrinck (Xerox Golden Lions), Francois Venter (Toyota Free State Cheetahs), Damian de Allende (DHL Western Province), JP Pietersen (Leicester Tigers), Patrick Lambie (Cell C Sharks), Rudy Paige (Vodacom Blue Bulls); Tendai Mtawarira (Cell C Sharks), Adriaan Strauss (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Vincent Koch (Saracens), Eben Etzebeth (DHL Western Province), Lood de Jager (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Willem Alberts (Stade Francais), Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Western Province), Warren Whiteley (Docomo Red Hurricanes).

Replacements: Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Western Province), Steven Kitshoff (Bordeaux), Lourens Adriaanse (Cell C Sharks), Franco Mostert (Ricoh Black Rams), Nizaam Carr (DHL Western Province), Faf de Klerk (Xerox Golden Lions), Johan Goosen (Racing 92), Lionel Mapoe (Kubota Spears).

That was not a penalty from Hughes, he couldnt have got away whilst in the air and he was careful as he came down.  This ref is terrible.

That's a load of love sacks penalty decision.

Good win from England.

This last 10 minutes have been poor and sloppy again. Yes, it is garbage time. But still need to keep pressure and composure.

trebellbobaggins wrote:That was not a penalty from Hughes, he couldnt have got away whilst in the air and he was careful as he came down.  This ref is terrible.

Bad decision.

Good win - happy days.

OK, Not a bad effort, but still need better. I would likely keep the same starting line-up for next Saturday. England have to minimise the down times.

Otherwise a big, big win.

Looks like Aus stole the match against Scotland..

doctor_grey wrote:OK, Not a bad effort, but still need better.  I would likely keep the same starting line-up for next Saturday.  England have to minimise the down times.

Otherwise a big, big win.

Agree, it's one of those when you think it's a great result with them not really fully clicking. That could bode well or could be worrying!

Real shame for Scotland.

Aussie will be hungry for revenge when they get to Twickenham, that's for sure. Shame it's not englands strongest side but will be good to see if they can still live with aussie.

stub wrote:Looks like...

Stub, I don't think you should post spoilers about a match covered on another thread. Some people might not want to know.

It's the first game back since the australia so they'll be a bit rusty, we seemed to grow into the game whIch hopefully means we've got it out of our system

stub wrote:Looks like Aus stole the match against Scotland..

Post on the Scotland thread

nathan wrote:It's the first game back since the australia so they'll be a bit rusty, we seemed to grow into the game whIch hopefully means we've got it out of our system

Shocker from Lenny though. Robson to start next week, surely.

LondonTiger wrote:

nathan wrote:It's the first game back since the australia so they'll be a bit rusty, we seemed to grow into the game whIch hopefully means we've got it out of our system

Shocker from Lenny though. Robson to start next week, surely.  

Lol, I was posting on another forum and they were all moaning about his crabbing, then it sets up two tries.

That's a bit annoying stub, had it lined up to watch on fast forward before the Wales game

nathan wrote:It's the first game back since the australia so they'll be a bit rusty, we seemed to grow into the game whIch hopefully means we've got it out of our system

I thought we grew into it, and then grew out of it. We didn't seem to know what to do once we pushed out to a winning lead. We should have been kicking SA when they were down, but kept vacillating between conservative kicking options, and risky handling moves. Hardly noticed Jamie George and Nathan Hughes were on, which suggests we didn't use them effectively.

Good game by Robshaw. When England lose the plot, he cleans up a lot of bad ball.

Rugby Fan wrote:

stub wrote:Looks like Aus stole the match against Scotland..

Stub, I don't think you should post spoilers about a match covered on another thread. Some people might not want to know.

Yes, sorry you're right, I did not even think. I would be annoyed if I was hoping to watch the other match.

I blame the Black Sheep Ale..

That was not a great performance from England, especially the first half. They showed little composure in giving away so many penalties.

That said, it is a great win and they took what chances they had very well. Simply a side that is winning and seemingly unaware how too lose. God signs for them.

Rugby Fan wrote:

nathan wrote:It's the first game back since the australia so they'll be a bit rusty, we seemed to grow into the game whIch hopefully means we've got it out of our system

I thought we grew into it, and then grew out of it. We didn't seem to know what to do once we pushed out to a winning lead. We should have been kicking SA when they were down, but kept vacillating between conservative kicking options, and risky handling moves. Hardly noticed Jamie George and Nathan Hughes were on, which suggests we didn't use them effectively.

Good game by Robshaw. When England lose the plot, he cleans up a lot of bad ball.

I presume it was when the subs came on, which would of needed to get up to speed and see the rust off

eirebilly wrote:That was not a great performance from England, especially the first half. They showed little composure in giving away so many penalties.

That said, it is a great win and they took what chances they had very well. Simply a side that is winning and seemingly unaware how too lose. God signs for them.

Don't think anyone thinks it's a great performance but I don't think it was an awful one

Not too many negatives at all there. Really good result, really well. controlled afeter 20 min.

Steve_rugby wrote:

stub wrote:Looks like Aus stole the match against Scotland..

Post on the Scotland thread

Sorry Steve, bam bam and anyone else.

Silly of me.

nathan wrote:

eirebilly wrote:That was not a great performance from England, especially the first half. They showed little composure in giving away so many penalties.

That said, it is a great win and they took what chances they had very well. Simply a side that is winning and seemingly unaware how too lose. God signs for them.

Don't think anyone thinks it's a great performance but I don't think it was an awful one

Not saying awful, just see so much potential in England that I guess my expectations are too high.

Have to give Hartley some credit: After the first 20 minutes with 6 penalties, England conceded only 4 the rest of the way. And two were in garbage time. He didn't wait for half time to get the team settled down.

Thought that was a poor first 20 but then much better. Good win with an ok performance ending a Losing run to SA and increasing the win streak. We will improve. Today the win was what mattered but I thought we looked really good in patches, and key players have found some form. Just need to start much better and not drop off after we think we are comfortable

LondonTiger wrote:

nathan wrote:It's the first game back since the australia so they'll be a bit rusty, we seemed to grow into the game whIch hopefully means we've got it out of our system

Shocker from Lenny though. Robson to start next week, surely.  

To be fair, I thought Youngs was the worst player on the pitch in the first half. But then he was unplayable in the second half!

I think it was a pretty measured and professional display from England including the eventual penalty control. Will be very interesting to see how this England side do against a vengeful Australia. I thought Hartley did well - he seems a reformed character under Jones.

stub wrote:

Steve_rugby wrote:

stub wrote:Looks like Aus stole the match against Scotland..

Post on the Scotland thread

Sorry Steve, bam bam and anyone else.

Silly of me.

No worries pal

BamBam wrote:

stub wrote:

Steve_rugby wrote:

stub wrote:Looks like Aus stole the match against Scotland..

Post on the Scotland thread

Sorry Steve, bam bam and anyone else.

Silly of me.

No worries pal

Thanks very much

ChequeredJersey wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

nathan wrote:It's the first game back since the australia so they'll be a bit rusty, we seemed to grow into the game whIch hopefully means we've got it out of our system

Shocker from Lenny though. Robson to start next week, surely.  

To be fair, I thought Youngs was the worst player on the pitch in the first half. But then he was unplayable in the second half!

Think that's a little unfair on the first half when a few players were giving away silly penalties and in the second half he did well and showed how crabbing can work.

Unplayable is good, he had a fantastic second half!

ChequeredJersey wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

nathan wrote:It's the first game back since the australia so they'll be a bit rusty, we seemed to grow into the game whIch hopefully means we've got it out of our system

Shocker from Lenny though. Robson to start next week, surely.  

To be fair, I thought Youngs was the worst player on the pitch in the first half. But then he was unplayable in the second half!

I think k the pack looked a little disorganised in the first half which meant at times he didn't get much cover at the breakdown. As the pack settled in he excelled.

It was a decent display but there's plenty to build on before next week. The scrum and breakdown were sloppy to begin with but improved as the game went on. You can't afford to take 20 mins to settle in against the teams in form which SA were certainly not.

To be fair to the team, it was their first match of the season together.  The team should improve from this display.  I don't think anyone had a poor game, or even a mediocre one.  Mostly good with some very good performances.  

And, by the way, when was the last time England supporters could say we had a decent game, and still won big over the Springboks?  Illustrates England's improvement in the last year and, unfortunately, the Boks changing performances as well.

trebellbobaggins wrote:Real shame for Scotland.

Aussie will be hungry for revenge when they get to Twickenham, that's for sure.  Shame it's not englands strongest side but will be good to see if they can still live with aussie.

We beat them 3-0 over the summer and they 'just' managed to beat Scotland, I am sure England are terrified. We may lose, but I certainly see nowt from the Aussies that is scary.

trebellbobaggins wrote:It was the most obvious forward pass.  If that decided the game now he would not be popular.

Luckily it didn't - makes you wonder what he was watching ...

Heaf wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:It was the most obvious forward pass.  If that decided the game now he would not be popular.

Luckily it didn't - makes you wonder what he was watching ...

Well he said it only looked forward because the TMO was zoomed in, not sure how zooming in makes it look even more forward, silky decision.

We look to have got way without any serious injuries, which is handy.

Some NZers and Australians are saying this is the best-balanced English side they can remember. That seems strange to me, because I think the 1990 and 2001 teams still rank higher on that score.

This side may yet surpass both but I don't think we have quite settled on a back row, midfield or back three.

Jones has found a way to give all those units a greater sense of purpose, and a strategy to suit the talents available, which has delivered good results.

Still, we'll know more by the end of this season whether we've got real tactical flexibility, or are perhaps vulnerable to someone figuring out a gameplan to counter what we are currently doing.

That's not really a moan, because results are all that we could wish for right now. More a recognition that, as Jones says, we are best still seen as a work in progress.

A good solid performance without arguably 5 first choice starters. A very sloppy start was followed up by a superb first phase try.
I thought Ben Youngs high points ( setting up tries & good breaks)papered over what was a very average performance.
I can see Robson/Care coming in against Fiji producing the quick accurate passing & tempo required, England get a great result & it will be forgotten after that.

stub wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:That was not a penalty from Hughes, he couldnt have got away whilst in the air and he was careful as he came down.  This ref is terrible.

Bad decision.

Agreed, Hughes dipped his shoulder into Goosen's head, which was worse than what Stander got a red for. The officials had a shocker in general missing Johnny May's foot in touch as he touched down, Brown's knock on, and the forward pass for Goosen's try.

How did Tom Wood go

I thought Wood was too amped up at the beginning, gave away 2-3 pens doing silly things that were unnecessary.

After that he settled down and was a nuisance, but did nothing really of note. He was definitely the least effective of the three backrow players, I haven't looked at any stats though.

As to the England performance. I was impressed. We started badly but after 20 mins took total control of the game, stopped SA playing their game and told the score far enough that their only danger (lambies boot) was made redundant.

The second half was very Sarries-esq we had a commanding lead and just shut them down, defended them well and closed the game out. Would have been nice to finish on a try but still all good

The Great Aukster wrote:

stub wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:That was not a penalty from Hughes, he couldnt have got away whilst in the air and he was careful as he came down.  This ref is terrible.

Bad decision.

Agreed, Hughes dipped his shoulder into Goosen's head, which was worse than what Stander got a red for. The officials had a shocker in general missing Johnny May's foot in touch as he touched down, Brown's knock on, and the forward pass for Goosen's try.

The result gets England maximum ranking points doesn't it?

At the end I was disappointed that Farrell kicked it out but, as the commentator said, it was the professional thing to do. No need to take any risks at that point - especially injuries.

The Great Aukster wrote:

stub wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:That was not a penalty from Hughes, he couldnt have got away whilst in the air and he was careful as he came down.  This ref is terrible.

Bad decision.

Agreed, Hughes dipped his shoulder into Goosen's head, which was worse than what Stander got a red for. The officials had a shocker in general missing Johnny May's foot in touch as he touched down, Brown's knock on, and the forward pass for Goosen's try.

hate to say it but the two people you quoted were saying it wasn't a penalty, you then agree with it and explain why you think it should of been a penalty? As for the foot in touch, you have to be about the only person talking about it?

Well another win for England. The game plan Eddie Jones as brought to the England game is farbetter than any one could hope for.

Only manged to watch the high lights but it was impressive.

Well done England not only for winning the game, But ending 10 years of losing to South Africa.

A lot of chat about Australia already. Even if we can play down Fiji on the basis of Friday night, Argentina will be every bit as challenging as the Boks or Aus, and we need to use the Fiji game to tune up our first team, although possibly using our bench earlier.

I'd pick the team I expect to pick against Argentina to play against Fiji, which would be much the same but bringing Hughes in for Wood. It is something I would have done against the Boks, and I think having that extra carrier from the start will allow us to take the game to them earlier.

The only other potential change to the starting team would be Roko for Yarde, but if Yarde showed enough to get himself picked ahead of Roko last week then it may be worth giving him an extra go.

I also would consider Slade for the bench. I understand having a direct centre to change the game plan as an option, but what if we want to continue the game plan and close a game out?

They'll be plenty of time over the next 8 months to give players a go as injuries, loss of form and the Lions take players out of contention. But right now England are on a run of 11 straight wins, and they should be aiming for 14 by the end of the Autumn. That should be the only target in mind.

Mako, Hartley, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Robshaw, Hughes, Vunipola.
Youngs, Ford, May, Farrell, Daly, Yarde/Roko, Brown.
George, Marler, Sinkler, Attwood, Wood, Care, Joseph, Roko/Slade.

I'd look to replace the front row, Launchbury, Youngs and Farrell around the 50-55 minute mark to give the replacements decent game time. I'd keep Wood and one backs sub back a bit in case there was an injury.

nathan wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

stub wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:That was not a penalty from Hughes, he couldnt have got away whilst in the air and he was careful as he came down.  This ref is terrible.

Bad decision.

Agreed, Hughes dipped his shoulder into Goosen's head, which was worse than what Stander got a red for. The officials had a shocker in general missing Johnny May's foot in touch as he touched down, Brown's knock on, and the forward pass for Goosen's try.

hate to say it but the two people you quoted were saying it wasn't a penalty, you then agree with it and explain why you think it should of been a penalty? As for the foot in touch, you have to be about the only person talking about it?

Nathan, I think he knows that - he's just trying to get a rise.

His comment genuinely made me laugh and enjoy the England victory just that bit more!

I think the criticism by some of England is unjustified. A year ago they were dysfunctional, now under Jones have won 9 (I think) in a row including Aus x3 and SA. Good depth in most positions, young players tried and an attractive mix of rugby being played. A long way from a great team, but very good progress.

Contrast that with the stagnant Welsh situation and I'm crying in my beer.