Brexit

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Funniest thing to happen in years. Have been following the craziness on the FT. Despite the implications if our current crop of retards manage to push it through I can't remember when I've read the news everyday without fail and learned something new. What does everyone think of the possibility that we stay in the single market, retain freedom of movement. Pay into the EU coffers and lose our vote ??

JuliusHMarx wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:
If you have a problem with me and others misunderstanding your arcane points, it's solely down to the fact you write absurd ----ing round-the-house allegories. Stop being obtuse, as if that makes you clever, and be clear.

It's direct.  The point is/was direct.  The EU standards couldn't prevent chancers from drilling their 'beef' with horse meat and selling it in main street stores.  Failure.  That's a point.  It's a logical point.  It's not obtuse and doesn't need a thesaurus to work it out.

Nor do murder laws prevent murder. Once we've left the EU they will though. Regaining sovereignty will eradicate all crime.

Wonderful news. Toppy will be glad to hear it.  You see, there are good-outcome stories to Brexit if people only look hard enough.

https://www.ft.com/content/600df898-e4ac-11e6-9645-c9357a75844a#comments

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2017/jan/26/steve-bell-uk-us-theresa-may-donald-trump-cartoon

lol. Weird that it was the guardian that put this in

navyblueshorts wrote:Another winner from Camp Brexit:

No nuclear fusion for the U.K. anytime soon

So many inter-dependent and important things but they haven't got a clue what to do with any of them.

You are aware that the UK has been running its own fusion research programme since the mid 80s?

https://www.euro-fusion.org/jet/

Given that JET is based in Oxfordshire, I'm pretty sure we could continue operating it independently, whether the EU likes it or not...even if it meant the withdrawal of EU scientists.

In any case the UK has considerable experience and knowledge from one of the world's longest-running fusion projects to draw on, if we wanted to continue our research independently.

Also, for the record, nobody is close to creating self-sustaining fusion by any of the methods currently being tested...so really its more accurate to say "no fusion for anyone any time soon".


While I agree it will stunt research, not being involved in ITER (currently being built in France) it shouldn't mean a complete halt to progress.


Its another one of these ridiculous bones of contention that Remainers love to chew on, saying the UK will be screwed by us leaving, ignoring the fact the EU can still benefit from co-operation with the UK and that they would be cutting off their nose to spite their face by refusing to work with us.

Just like Surrey Satellite Technology is one of the world's leading commercial satellite builders and the EU would be idiotic to block future orders or collaboration on the basis of us leaving.

Then there are the massive biotech and computer science research facilities in and around Cambridge that are home to world leading companies.

This is why I've kept saying Europe would be wise not to be too hard on us...they've as much to lose as we have...if not more...

I know all that and I know I was exaggerating it a little with the "anytime soon" bit. Poetic license.
It's just another example of the cluster**** that Brexit is. No-one has any idea of the details that will be affected and, guess what?, I don't really give much of a Poopie if in 20 years we're 'doing OK'. We were doing fine as it was, nothing much is going to change and those nob-end political chancers will have created division and problems for what? Morons.

Some people here want the signed contract before the negotiations  Kinda Trumptastic philosophy, ain't it??

Well it's that generation isn't it - the Fire'n'Fury crowd ...

You guys should watch parliament.TV. boring as feck for the most part but there's two Brexit supporting mps apart from grease- bogg that respond with ''but if they did that they'd be cutting their nose to spite their face'' ''so if we're reasonable there is no reason why this cannot happen'' etc with almost no concept of the intricacies of regulation and development of trade treaties. These industry experts are visibly discomfited by the line of questioning and have to disagree quietly in soft language. Whereas you know he or she is thinking '' You complete f*ckng cretin'' just from the look on their faces. It's pretty dangerous that industry heads are effectively having to lie and agree that our negotiating strength is as strong as the EU''s to avoid pilloried by the press. The sort of weaselly Britishness that actually thinks the special relationship with the US actually exists and isn't a convenient lie.

Well there you have it, with no political mandate Britain is going to commit suicide.

Utter madness.

As long as you don't...

Brexit is bollox..But life is here to be lived..

If it's any consolation I know your Wife agrees with me.

You're going to get some wholesome american beef come your way soon Truss, must be a silver lining for you?

One thing the vote yesterday shows is that MP's do NOT look after those that voted them in. How many Tory and Labour MP's voted to tow the party line despite the constituency they represent having a majority of remain voters. And people wonder why the Tory and Labour party are virtually obsolete in Scotland.

The SNP are a one policy party, like UKIP, they're towing the party line too - anything to closer engineer indyref2 (irrespective of all polling showing it would repeat the same result, as with Brexit polling).

Entirely predictable result last night. Country voted for Brexit, self-serving politicians were never going to vote against that.

Pretty much a non-story.

CaledonianCraig wrote:One thing the vote yesterday shows is that MP's do NOT look after those that voted them in. How many Tory and Labour MP's voted to tow the party line despite the constituency they represent having a majority of remain voters. And people wonder why the Tory and Labour party are virtually obsolete in Scotland.

Tad hypocritical. How many SNP MP's represent their constituents. The majority who voted to remain in the UK?

seanmichaels wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:One thing the vote yesterday shows is that MP's do NOT look after those that voted them in. How many Tory and Labour MP's voted to tow the party line despite the constituency they represent having a majority of remain voters. And people wonder why the Tory and Labour party are virtually obsolete in Scotland.

Tad hypocritical. How many SNP MP's represent their constituents. The majority who voted to remain in the UK?

Lol #nailedit

From memory Craig is one of those blue faced knuckle draggers that couldn't see beyond Scottish nationalism when we had indyref1. So unsurprising really. Was always fun watching other more intelligent Scots on here (e.g. Super) tearing him apart.

Actually, posters here are hypocrites themselves.

Viewpoints is that if rest of the UK wishes to leave EU it is fine - nothing wrong with that. However, if Scotland wants to leave UK or you hold that viewpoint you are a knuckledragger  and xenophobic.  Real pathetic stance that.

Those that voted for Brexit are no more xenophobes than Scots wanting Independence are. They are people who feel they would do better out of a bigger union than in it. So let's just quit the mockery and crap.

The SNP are ridiculed by posters here but they have a better record on NHS front than rest of UK with shorter waiting times at A and E and waiting for ops than rest of UK. Prisons also are not on the verge of implosion either as they are in England and Wales and that is the opinion of English prison wardens. 

The SNP have been in power for a number of years now and I don't see the country falling to pieces at all. But hey ho go on listening to media BS.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Actually, posters here are hypocrites themselves.

Viewpoints is that if rest of the UK wishes to leave EU it is fine - nothing wrong with that. However, if Scotland wants to leave UK or you hold that viewpoint you are a knuckledragger  and xenophobic.  Real pathetic stance that.

Those that voted for Brexit are no more xenophobes than Scots wanting Independence are. They are people who feel they would do better out of a bigger union than in it. So let's just quit the mockery and crap.

The SNP are ridiculed by posters here but they have a better record on NHS front than rest of UK with shorter waiting times at A and E and waiting for ops than rest of UK. Prisons also are not on the verge of implosion either as they are in England and Wales and that is the opinion of English prison wardens. 

The SNP have been in power for a number of years now and I don't see the country falling to pieces at all. But hey ho go on listening to media BS.

It doesn't. Vote proved that and all recent polling reinforces that.

Oh, and I would apply the same phrase to the majority of people that voted for Brexit too.

Will wait for Super to dip his toe into this thread and rip your SNP performance rubbish apart.

Tophat why not pull the SNP apart yourself or is it because you can't? I see no mass rioting and outrage at the SNP and how they are governing in Scotland? I see no signs of the country falling apart which surely it would have by now.

If you look at last indy ref look at the highly questionable goings on in the last few days of campaigning by Gordon Brown. Polls put yes ahead at 52-48 and he came out with his promises of what Scotland would get if they voted to remain effectively turning it into a Devo-Max issue which was not on the table. The poll was about independence not Devo-Max but he sufficiently clouded the waters enough. 

As for how things stand well however people see it the genie is out of the bottle so to speak. Say thirty odd years ago support for independence was down below 20% and SNP had a handful of MP'S.  The Thatcher years and Labour lies to take country to war and ensuing years have shown up those parties to Scots and more and more warmed to the idea of independence. Those number a large proportion of the population now at 44% so support is growing not diminishing and the more Tory and Labour government jokes that follow only move to strengthen independence call.

Personally, I would say hold fire on indyref2 - allow the cutting effects of Brexit to hit home first and more heads will be turned.

I just cannot stand how someone who merely wants the best for Scotland is portrayed as a xenophobe especially when a lot of my friends hale from England, Wales and Ireland. My views are political and nothing to do with hatreds towards other nations.

Toppy, you have made some good points in some of these threads, but you do need to wind your neck in calling people 'knuckle draggers' just because they have a different view/choice from you.

Getting back to the Brexit vote, I for once feel a bit of sympathy towards politicians. It's clear that most of them believe Brexit will be a disaster, or at the very least leave the UK significantly worse off. I also think the referendum should never have been held in the first place, as the issue is far too complex to be understood by most people (including me), but the fact remains that a referendum was held, and the British people chose to leave.

So in my view we must leave. Personally I think it's an incredibly stupid idea, which will damage the UK quite badly, and my particular area of expertise even worse (in fact it already is). But to turn around and say "sorry but all of you who voted to leave are a bunch of idiots who didn't understand the issues (this is hyperbole before anyone jumps down my throat) so we're just going to ignore you" would set an incredibly dangerous precedent.

I also have some sympathy for Labour's plight on this one. The Conservatives were always going to overwhelmingly back the government, obviously. Equally the Libdems with their 9 MPs can afford a bit of grandstanding, while the SNPs were always going to rightfully oppose it. But Labour are in a tricky position. As the opposition, they're meant to oppose, but many of their constituencies voted to Leave. There's also the fact that had they opposed Brexit you would have seen the tabloids go apeshit about "defying the will of the people" and such. Personally I would have liked to see their MPs given a free vote, and let them decide what they think their role should be, and how best to execute it. A three-line whip allows them to shirk that responsibility to an extent, and in this case I think the issue is too important.

Finally, two of the LibDems actually abstained?? I mean WTF? I really don't get that at all (indeed I don't understand anyone who abstains on such an important issue).

Overall I think the right decision was made. I can only now hope that the more sensible Conservatives manage to steer the government towards the least damaging exit possible.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Toppy, you have made some good points in some of these threads, but you do need to wind your neck in calling people 'knuckle draggers' just because they have a different view/choice from you.

It's not a totally generalist comment - just applied to the majority of peolple I've spoken to or come across. One of the smartest people I've ever known or met voted Out, certainly wouldn't apply it to him! But the vast majority of people I've seen both on here, other forums, tv, twitter etc arguing for Out/Leave fall very much into that category (based on their arguments forwarded).

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Getting back to the Brexit vote, I for once feel a bit of sympathy towards politicians. It's clear that most of them believe Brexit will be a disaster, or at the very least leave the UK significantly worse off. I also think the referendum should never have been held in the first place, as the issue is far too complex to be understood by most people (including me), but the fact remains that a referendum was held, and the British people chose to leave.

So in my view we must leave. Personally I think it's an incredibly stupid idea, which will damage the UK quite badly, and my particular area of expertise even worse (in fact it already is). But to turn around and say "sorry but all of you who voted to leave are a bunch of idiots who didn't understand the issues (this is hyperbole before anyone jumps down my throat) so we're just going to ignore you" would set an incredibly dangerous precedent.

I also have some sympathy for Labour's plight on this one. The Conservatives were always going to overwhelmingly back the government, obviously. Equally the Libdems with their 9 MPs can afford a bit of grandstanding, while the SNPs were always going to rightfully oppose it. But Labour are in a tricky position. As the opposition, they're meant to oppose, but many of their constituencies voted to Leave. There's also the fact that had they opposed Brexit you would have seen the tabloids go apeshit about "defying the will of the people" and such. Personally I would have liked to see their MPs given a free vote, and let them decide what they think their role should be, and how best to execute it. A three-line whip allows them to shirk that responsibility to an extent, and in this case I think the issue is too important.

Finally, two of the LibDems actually abstained?? I mean WTF? I really don't get that at all (indeed I don't understand anyone who abstains on such an important issue).

Overall I think the right decision was made. I can only now hope that the more sensible Conservatives manage to steer the government towards the least damaging exit possible.

Agreeing pretty much every word of that.

See Diane Abbott 'abstained', faking illness, given her Hackney constituency voted something like 80% Remain and she would never go against her former beaue Comrade Corbyn.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Tophat why not pull the SNP apart yourself or is it because you can't? I see no mass rioting and outrage at the SNP and how they are governing in Scotland? I see no signs of the country falling apart which surely it would have by now.

Because I don't live & breath the effects of having an SNP gov't anymore than I enjoy free higher education and free prescriptions at the expense of tax payers from another jurisdiction.

SuperFly does and he reeled it all off before about how poor SNP performance has been (education standards being the only one that jumps to mind for now) relative to rUK. Scotland must be very relieved it hasn't got full fiscal autonomy right now. An overnight scrapping of the Barnett formula combined with the collapse of the oil & gas market would have absolutely destroyed the Scottish fiscal abilities.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Getting back to the Brexit vote, I for once feel a bit of sympathy towards politicians. It's clear that most of them believe Brexit will be a disaster, or at the very least leave the UK significantly worse off. I also think the referendum should never have been held in the first place, as the issue is far too complex to be understood by most people (including me), but the fact remains that a referendum was held, and the British people chose to leave.

So in my view we must leave. Personally I think it's an incredibly stupid idea, which will damage the UK quite badly, and my particular area of expertise even worse (in fact it already is). But to turn around and say "sorry but all of you who voted to leave are a bunch of idiots who didn't understand the issues (this is hyperbole before anyone jumps down my throat) so we're just going to ignore you" would set an incredibly dangerous precedent.

I also have some sympathy for Labour's plight on this one. The Conservatives were always going to overwhelmingly back the government, obviously. Equally the Libdems with their 9 MPs can afford a bit of grandstanding, while the SNPs were always going to rightfully oppose it. But Labour are in a tricky position. As the opposition, they're meant to oppose, but many of their constituencies voted to Leave. There's also the fact that had they opposed Brexit you would have seen the tabloids go apeshit about "defying the will of the people" and such. Personally I would have liked to see their MPs given a free vote, and let them decide what they think their role should be, and how best to execute it. A three-line whip allows them to shirk that responsibility to an extent, and in this case I think the issue is too important.

Finally, two of the LibDems actually abstained?? I mean WTF? I really don't get that at all (indeed I don't understand anyone who abstains on such an important issue).

Overall I think the right decision was made. I can only now hope that the more sensible Conservatives manage to steer the government towards the least damaging exit possible.

Agreeing pretty much every word of that.

See Diane Abbott 'abstained', faking illness, given her Hackney constituency voted something like 80% Remain and she would never go against her former beaue Comrade Corbyn.

That's just conjecture........

Not sure I want to reel off again the areas in which the SNP are underperforming as nothing much has changed since the last time I listed them all.  

Actually, one thing has changed, the SNP after years of sniping at the Tory's austerity, have proposed a budget which pretty much mirrors the Westminster budget and which severely cuts local council budget allocation.  Despite claims of socialism they refuse to use their tax raising powers and have instead focussed on cutting funding which will mean a loss of services to people that need them the most.  The budget has been opposed by Labour and the Tories but will pass because the Greens are essentially the Vegan wing of the SNP.  

I also wouldn't get hung up on the fact that Brexit should be a trigger to Indyref2.  The SNP are waking up to the fact that (a) a significant minority of their membership and a handful of their elected representatives would prefer not to be in the EU and (b) that Scotland's membership of the EU is not guaranteed (we would have to join the queue and the resulting deficit caused by a split from the UK (as a result of losing Barnett) would preclude us from entry).  Sturgeon and the SNP's leadership's rhetoric is changing on Europe.

Don't know about you, but the prospect of Scotland splitting from its biggest trading partner (RUK) and its second biggest trading partner (EU) and having to endure dwindling oil revenues is bloody frightening.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Getting back to the Brexit vote, I for once feel a bit of sympathy towards politicians. It's clear that most of them believe Brexit will be a disaster, or at the very least leave the UK significantly worse off. I also think the referendum should never have been held in the first place, as the issue is far too complex to be understood by most people (including me), but the fact remains that a referendum was held, and the British people chose to leave.

So in my view we must leave. Personally I think it's an incredibly stupid idea, which will damage the UK quite badly, and my particular area of expertise even worse (in fact it already is). But to turn around and say "sorry but all of you who voted to leave are a bunch of idiots who didn't understand the issues (this is hyperbole before anyone jumps down my throat) so we're just going to ignore you" would set an incredibly dangerous precedent.

I also have some sympathy for Labour's plight on this one. The Conservatives were always going to overwhelmingly back the government, obviously. Equally the Libdems with their 9 MPs can afford a bit of grandstanding, while the SNPs were always going to rightfully oppose it. But Labour are in a tricky position. As the opposition, they're meant to oppose, but many of their constituencies voted to Leave. There's also the fact that had they opposed Brexit you would have seen the tabloids go apeshit about "defying the will of the people" and such. Personally I would have liked to see their MPs given a free vote, and let them decide what they think their role should be, and how best to execute it. A three-line whip allows them to shirk that responsibility to an extent, and in this case I think the issue is too important.

Finally, two of the LibDems actually abstained?? I mean WTF? I really don't get that at all (indeed I don't understand anyone who abstains on such an important issue).

Overall I think the right decision was made. I can only now hope that the more sensible Conservatives manage to steer the government towards the least damaging exit possible.

Agreeing pretty much every word of that.

See Diane Abbott 'abstained', faking illness, given her Hackney constituency voted something like 80% Remain and she would never go against her former beaue Comrade Corbyn.

That's just conjecture........

Only one word of it is - 'faking'.

Awfully convenient though....

superflyweight wrote:Not sure I want to reel off again the areas in which the SNP are underperforming as nothing much has changed since the last time I listed them all.  

Actually, one thing has changed, the SNP after years of sniping at the Tory's austerity, have proposed a budget which pretty much mirrors the Westminster budget and which severely cuts local council budget allocation.  Despite claims of socialism they refuse to use their tax raising powers and have instead focussed on cutting funding which will mean a loss of services to people that need them the most.  The budget has been opposed by Labour and the Tories but will pass because the Greens are essentially the Vegan wing of the SNP.  

I also wouldn't get hung up on the fact that Brexit should be a trigger to Indyref2.  The SNP are waking up to the fact that (a) a significant minority of their membership and a handful of their elected representatives would prefer not to be in the EU and (b) that Scotland's membership of the EU is not guaranteed (we would have to join the queue and the resulting deficit caused by a split from the UK (as a result of losing Barnett) would preclude us from entry).  Sturgeon and the SNP's leadership's rhetoric is changing on Europe.

Don't know about you, but the prospect of Scotland splitting from its biggest trading partner (RUK) and its second biggest trading partner (EU) and having to endure dwindling oil revenues is bloody frightening.

Hard to be all things to all people when you are in Government.....

In 2015...SNP were at an alltime high and Labour at an alltime low me thinks.........Sooner or later Labour (like the liberals who are winning seat after seat from the Tories) will get its act together...

S/T panelbase poll.......Do you want independence ? Yes 46% No 54%.....

51% Don't want another independence vote in the next two years..

The problem the SNP has is that if another referendum goes ahead it essentially becomes a single issue argument on membership of the EU. They could probably win if they could guarantee instant membership, but they can't and they're now having to face up that reality.

My mp abstained as well the cowardly little weasel. Gavin Suker.  He's knows that future generations are going to curse the weasels that voted for this but didn't have the balls to at least vote against. Luton has had it ...so much development over the last few years at the airport and so much jobs have come here ever since they installed the bus way and the cretins voted out. Already noises being made about council tax going up as they've spent all their money on the airport and the surrounding infrastructure. They charge you 3.50 just to drop someone off at the airport. I wonder if the millions of extra flights they were counting on will ever materialise.

superflyweight wrote:The problem the SNP has is that if another referendum goes ahead it essentially becomes  a single issue argument on membership of the EU.  They could probably win if they could guarantee instant membership, but they can't and they're now having to face up that reality.  

They are linked to independence.......I imagine any result will marry up with the SNP performance in the Scottish parliament...

They seem to be struggling at the moment........Familiarity breeds contempt...

I don't know much about Dugdale......She needs to step up if she isn't doing so already..

ShahenshahG wrote:My mp abstained as well the cowardly little weasel. Gavin Suker.  He's knows that future generations are going to curse the weasels that voted for this but didn't have the balls to at least vote against. Luton has had it ...so much development over the last few years at the airport and so much jobs have come here ever since they installed the bus way and the cretins voted out. Already noises being made about council tax going up as they've spent all their money on the airport and the surrounding infrastructure. They charge you 3.50 just to drop someone off at the airport. I wonder if the millions of extra flights they were counting on will ever materialise.

Of course not...the giant glass dome that will be placed over the UK, as part of the terms of the Brexit deal, mean we will be isolated from the rest of the world FOR EVAH!!!!111

dyrewolfe wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:My mp abstained as well the cowardly little weasel. Gavin Suker.  He's knows that future generations are going to curse the weasels that voted for this but didn't have the balls to at least vote against. Luton has had it ...so much development over the last few years at the airport and so much jobs have come here ever since they installed the bus way and the cretins voted out. Already noises being made about council tax going up as they've spent all their money on the airport and the surrounding infrastructure. They charge you 3.50 just to drop someone off at the airport. I wonder if the millions of extra flights they were counting on will ever materialise.

Of course not...the giant glass dome that will be placed over the UK, as part of the terms of the Brexit deal, mean we will be isolated from the rest of the world FOR EVAH!!!!111

And the UK will forever more be called Springfield?

For the sake of utter f*ck you pipwit, the UK might have to renegotiate access with the EU ECAA and bilateral deals with other countries outside of the EU. Since we've got less negotiating power we will have to make concessions...higher costs means more expensive holidays and probably less flights. It might not change at all but with more crucial industries and problems to consider there is a real possibility of lower flights. How many times did you p*ss on the toilet seat before someone told you to put it up?

ShahenshahG wrote:You guys should watch parliament.TV. boring as feck for the most part but there's two Brexit supporting mps apart from grease- bogg that respond with ''but if they did that they'd be cutting their nose to spite their face'' ''so if we're reasonable there is no reason why this cannot happen'' etc with almost no concept of the intricacies of regulation and development of trade treaties. These industry experts are visibly discomfited by the line of questioning and have to disagree quietly in soft language. Whereas you know he or she is thinking '' You complete f*ckng cretin'' just from the look on their faces. It's pretty dangerous that industry heads are effectively having to lie and agree that our negotiating strength is as strong as the EU''s to avoid pilloried by the press. The sort of weaselly Britishness that actually thinks the special relationship with the US actually exists and isn't a convenient lie.

Well seeing as you're apparently such an expert, please enlighten the rest of us, since we are obviously talking out of our backsides.

...and have also apparently inherited an ability to read people's minds just by looking at their faces...


You don't need to be a trade and industry expert to know the UK has a shedload of capability and expertise that would be beneficial to the rest of the EU. We also already have numerous well-established trade and scientific research links that would be difficult and costly to break for both sides.

Also, for the record I have a degree in manufacturing and business and work in project management. When you work closely with contractors you tend to get a good feel for how their businesses operate and how various events either benefit or hurt them. For the most part, the guys I work with tend to either be UK focused or have a more global reach. Even the ones that do a lot of business in Europe admit that while times will get tougher for them, they aren't predicting any catastrophes.

Like I said, yes it could potentially hurt the UK, but it would hurt the EU just as much, in the short term.

Like that idiot Tim Farron, ranting about the UK becoming some third-world backwater country on the fringes of Europe, some people need to take off their blinkers and realise the EU is not the be-all and end-all, as far as our economic well-being is concerned. We did pretty well before joining the Common Market in 1973 and we will continue to do so after we leave...even if there are some unwelcome side-effects.

ShahenshahG wrote:For the sake of utter f*ck you pipwit,  the UK might have to renegotiate access with the EU ECAA and bilateral deals with other countries outside of the EU. Since we've got less negotiating power we will have to make concessions...higher costs means more expensive holidays and probably less flights. It might not change at all but with more crucial industries and problems to consider there is a real possibility of lower flights. How many times did you p*ss on the toilet seat before someone told you to put it up?

Congrats on stating the blindingly obvious.

Again - did you really think separation from the EU would have NO negative consequences at all?

Of course there will be changes and of course not all of them will be good. At least you had the good sense to say might, since we can't say with any real certainty at this point.

Right now you're a combination of The Boy Who Cried Wolf and Chicken Little rolled into one...predicting doom and gloom when there is very little to base your claims on.

Obviously we may get stuck with less favourable trade deals with the EU and yes it may lead to increased costs for industry, which will have to be passed on to us. However you are very conveniently omitting the new trade deals we can strike with the rest of the world, which for all we know, could reduce or even completely offset any adverse effects of our new trading arrangements with Europe.

I would respect you more (well, okay ridicule you less) if you would put out more balanced arguments.

Yeah we did pretty well that's why we begged them three times to join and they took pity on us . You have a tenuous grasp of history. You probably think Thatcher went and got the rebate from a grasping EU as well?

The reason why this is utterly stupid is we are going to leave agreements which we know are good for agreements we don't know yet. We're going to pin our hopes on the negotiating strengtha of people untested in negotiations since 1970 and a civil service that is tiny in proportion of the massive task ahead. Yes the EU will also suffer from Brexit. ..they said it themselves 'no cake for anyone and it would be in their interests to give us an OK deal. But they've taking a might as a possible deal instead of going for a customs agreement then taking us out of there once we have enough trade agreements prior to leaving. It's like there's a small fire on the ground floor so instead of lowering themselves out of the next floor up, they've decided to climb onto the roof and jump out.

I've no doubt Britain cam succeed eventually but what a stupid risk to take

Lot's of lovely but utterly pointless rhetoric from the Brexiteer. Unsurprising. It won't be that bad, we'll get some kind of deal, pain will be only short term....wonderful collection of leave arguments there.

Meanwhile those of us doing perfectly fine as part of the EU are still waiting for the mystical positives from this general sh*tshow.

The non-perfectly fine folks probably shrug their shoulders at that point Top.

SecretFly wrote:The non-perfectly fine folks probably shrug their shoulders at that point Top.

Fine by me, let's see how much they'd be shrugging when the Remainers' taxes dry up and there's no EU funding to fill the holes anymore.

Probably quite a lot after the ensuing alcohol abuse Toppy

TopHat24/7 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The non-perfectly fine folks probably shrug their shoulders at that point Top.

Fine by me, let's see how much they'd be shrugging when the Remainers' taxes dry up and there's no EU funding to fill the holes anymore.

Is that the perfect picture of a perfect society - that the non-perfectly fine people should be satisfied with the hand-me-down funding from a Lordly EU to keep them going?

Not much of a viable stable society that. is it?

MP's are not sentimentalisets.  Those who begged and fought for Scotland to remain did not do it to keep Scotland part of an imaginary family. They did it because they knew what THEY would be losing and that backs up what people who back independence believe - it could stand on its own two feet. You will never convince me that Westminster governs fairly for all and leaves Scotland with an equal say. The whole Brexit issue is evidence of that where a much bigger majority voted to remain in Europe than voted to remain in the UK but who gives a stuff as Westminster has spoken.

Like I said the genie is out of the bottle in terms of growing displeasure and disenchantment with Westminster rule in Scotland. Independence may not get voted in if a referendum happens in a year or so but I have no doubt the disquiet will remain. Westminster will continue to have Tory and Labour governments with scandals and mistakes and so the erosion of faith will go on. I don't see that changing at all.

SecretFly wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:My mp abstained as well the cowardly little weasel. Gavin Suker.  He's knows that future generations are going to curse the weasels that voted for this but didn't have the balls to at least vote against. Luton has had it ...so much development over the last few years at the airport and so much jobs have come here ever since they installed the bus way and the cretins voted out. Already noises being made about council tax going up as they've spent all their money on the airport and the surrounding infrastructure. They charge you 3.50 just to drop someone off at the airport. I wonder if the millions of extra flights they were counting on will ever materialise.

Of course not...the giant glass dome that will be placed over the UK, as part of the terms of the Brexit deal, mean we will be isolated from the rest of the world FOR EVAH!!!!111

And the UK will forever more be called Springfield?

Was thinking much the same.

CaledonianCraig wrote:MP's are not sentimentalisets.  Those who begged and fought for Scotland to remain did not do it to keep Scotland part of an imaginary family. They did it because they knew what THEY would be losing and that backs up what people who back independence believe - it could stand on its own two feet. You will never convince me that Westminster governs fairly for all and leaves Scotland with an equal say. The whole Brexit issue is evidence of that where a much bigger majority voted to remain in Europe than voted to remain in the UK but who gives a stuff as Westminster has spoken.

Like I said the genie is out of the bottle in terms of growing displeasure and disenchantment with Westminster rule in Scotland. Independence may not get voted in if a referendum happens in a year or so but I have no doubt the disquiet will remain. Westminster will continue to have Tory and Labour governments with scandals and mistakes and so the erosion of faith will go on. I don't see that changing at all.

Nonsense, but we'll see over time won't we? As Toppy(?) I think reminded you, it was predicated on a nonsense financial model based on oil which has tanked. If you'd voted out of the UK, you'd be utterly FUBAR. Salmond and Sturgeon have agitated all the woad-wearing, Mel Gibson tendencies for their own selfish purposes and stitched you up good and proper.

But the Scots wanna stay in the EU?  Surely that makes them bosom pals of the people who in turn want to stay in the EU, keep them in the UK ... and therefore out of the EU?  

Wot a Weird World  

There's only one thing weird round here...

Part of me would be more than happy for them to sod the Hell off; probably how the EU feels about the U.K. That said, I think it's pathetic and childish, a bit like the Brexit stuff. Maybe we should all secede from each other? Maybe the Western Isles should secede from the rest of Scotland? Or Edinburgh? Just shows how backward humanity still is.

navyblueshorts wrote:There's only one thing weird round here...

Part of me would be more than happy for them to sod the Hell off; probably how the EU feels about the U.K. That said, I think it's pathetic and childish, a bit like the Brexit stuff. Maybe we should all secede from each other? Maybe the Western Isles should secede from the rest of Scotland? Or Edinburgh? Just shows how backward humanity still is.

Well maybe they all should.

Were humans all meant to thrive in the one village with the One King and be happy?  That's not natural.  When the kids grow up, they have a few fights with the head of the family and then leave.  Happens all through nature.  We follow evolution.  It's comical and frightening that many of you want to exist in a commune of bland sameness (same laws, same education, same bowing to the same flags and singing the same athems)... and call it Heaven.

To some of us, that's a description of Hell.

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:MP's are not sentimentalisets.  Those who begged and fought for Scotland to remain did not do it to keep Scotland part of an imaginary family. They did it because they knew what THEY would be losing and that backs up what people who back independence believe - it could stand on its own two feet. You will never convince me that Westminster governs fairly for all and leaves Scotland with an equal say. The whole Brexit issue is evidence of that where a much bigger majority voted to remain in Europe than voted to remain in the UK but who gives a stuff as Westminster has spoken.

Like I said the genie is out of the bottle in terms of growing displeasure and disenchantment with Westminster rule in Scotland. Independence may not get voted in if a referendum happens in a year or so but I have no doubt the disquiet will remain. Westminster will continue to have Tory and Labour governments with scandals and mistakes and so the erosion of faith will go on. I don't see that changing at all.

Nonsense, but we'll see over time won't we? As Toppy(?) I think reminded you, it was predicated on a nonsense financial model based on oil which has tanked. If you'd voted out of the UK, you'd be utterly FUBAR. Salmond and Sturgeon have agitated all the woad-wearing, Mel Gibson tendencies for their own selfish purposes and stitched you up good and proper.

Oh so what Toppy says is written in stone and truly factual. I'll take his fixed mind with a pinch of salt. He is no more positioned to judge than the next man. He offers an opinion - one which you can agree or disagree with . I choose the latter and you choose the former. Like I say the genie is out of the bottle now. Within 30 years Scotland has gone from around 20% wanting independence with a handful of SNP MP's to 44% backing indepence with the SNP the biggest party in Scotland. Do you honestly think that bubble will burst and call for independence will diminish with the continued incompetence of Tory then Labour then Tory same old same old crap governments?

Zzzzzzzzzzzz.......

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86365

If any of you guys were subjected to this (very clever leaver) you might find catharsis in his panic

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:MP's are not sentimentalisets.  Those who begged and fought for Scotland to remain did not do it to keep Scotland part of an imaginary family. They did it because they knew what THEY would be losing and that backs up what people who back independence believe - it could stand on its own two feet. You will never convince me that Westminster governs fairly for all and leaves Scotland with an equal say. The whole Brexit issue is evidence of that where a much bigger majority voted to remain in Europe than voted to remain in the UK but who gives a stuff as Westminster has spoken.

Like I said the genie is out of the bottle in terms of growing displeasure and disenchantment with Westminster rule in Scotland. Independence may not get voted in if a referendum happens in a year or so but I have no doubt the disquiet will remain. Westminster will continue to have Tory and Labour governments with scandals and mistakes and so the erosion of faith will go on. I don't see that changing at all.

Nonsense, but we'll see over time won't we? As Toppy(?) I think reminded you, it was predicated on a nonsense financial model based on oil which has tanked. If you'd voted out of the UK, you'd be utterly FUBAR. Salmond and Sturgeon have agitated all the woad-wearing, Mel Gibson tendencies for their own selfish purposes and stitched you up good and proper.

Oh so what Toppy says is written in stone and truly factual. I'll take his fixed mind with a pinch of salt. He is no more positioned to judge than the next man. He offers an opinion - one which you can agree or disagree with . I choose the latter and you choose the former. Like I say the genie is out of the bottle now. Within 30 years Scotland has gone from around 20% wanting independence with a handful of SNP MP's to 44% backing indepence with the SNP the biggest party in Scotland. Do you honestly think that bubble will burst and call for independence will diminish with the continued incompetence of Tory then Labour then Tory same old same old crap governments?

Oil & gas prices are fact, not opinion.