Brexit

by **ShahenshahG** Fri 02 Dec 2016, 12:16 pm

First topic message reminder :

Funniest thing to happen in years. Have been following the craziness on the FT. Despite the implications if our current crop of retards manage to push it through I can't remember when I've read the news everyday without fail and learned something new. What does everyone think of the possibility that we stay in the single market, retain freedom of movement. Pay into the EU coffers and lose our vote ??

by **ShahenshahG** Wed 15 Mar 2017, 10:25 am

Because that's how the Scottish government spends their money. They give up other things. We could do it too but then we'd have to stop something else and it's not deemed important enough next to vanity projects like free and grammar schools,and trident.

David Davis has just said to the economic committee that they have not done an economic assessment of the no deal.

Beautiful.

by Derbymanc Wed 15 Mar 2017, 10:29 am

Cheers Shah, is there anywhere you can see the differences side by side? (for a simple person like myself to digest), as i've seen it brought up before and used as a stick to say why Scotland have it good etc.

Nothing surprises me about Brexit or this government anymore, i'm pretty certain all of us on here (including SF) could do a better job ;-)

by Scottrf Wed 15 Mar 2017, 10:30 am

Derbymanc wrote:To be fair I think there was some merit in the question asking if towns will start succeding (or whatever it's called).

Think another debate on independancy is a massive waste of time (and money) it's been voted on already lets move on (or did we really expect the SNP to let it drop).

Also can anyone explain why Scottish and Welsh residents can get prescriptions for free (or cheap) when I gotta pay full whack just cause I live in a crappy part of England?

Because they have people arguing for them, England doesn't.

by **ShahenshahG** Wed 15 Mar 2017, 10:35 am

I couldn't no, it's like the EU. In terms of money we are paying more than we get in...same with Scotland but Scotland contribution and the EU contribution is so much more than money. There's cultural, availability of skill, a vast seamless market and a whole host of other things that make the union worthwhile. The quantifiable benefits aren't apparent and won't be until they are taken away because of their complex and nature. If I wasn't looking for them for example if this involved the complexities of the Secession of a US state my eyes would glaze over too. But since this will affect nearly all my friends I have a vested interest.

by **ShahenshahG** Wed 15 Mar 2017, 10:41 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dwp-mental-health-discrimination-pip-cuts-mobility-mind-a7629866.html

F*cks sake.

by **superflyweight** Wed 15 Mar 2017, 11:09 am

The free prescription thing is fine to a point, but it's essentially a middle class vote winner.

The vast majority of people who needed free prescriptions (e.g. elderly / unemployed / children) were already entitled to them. I don't see why I shouldn't pay for my prescriptions and would be happy to do so in order to help pay for a better NHS. That's a proper socialist policy and a much better way to redistribute wealth so that it benefits those that need it.

The same is true in regard to free university education. It mostly benefits the middle classes who would have gone to university anyway regardless of whether or not they had to pay.

In order to fund the free places, the Scottish government has had to cut funding for colleges and further education establishments which means a lot less places for people from poorer backgrounds who would have chosen to use those establishments either as an alternative to university or a stepping stone. It's a fact that as a result of this policy, a smaller % of people from poor backgrounds in Scotland go to University than in the rest of the UK.

by Derbymanc Wed 15 Mar 2017, 11:16 am

ShahenshahG wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dwp-mental-health-discrimination-pip-cuts-mobility-mind-a7629866.html

F*cks sake.

This infuriates me no end. It's taken so long for mental health to come to a fore front and (for me at least) seems to have taken forever to be taken seriously, now we're all about to be told to shut the f up and grow up or some other bollox

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 15 Mar 2017, 11:40 am

Derbymanc wrote:To be fair I think there was some merit in the question asking if towns will start succeding (or whatever it's called).

Think another debate on independancy is a massive waste of time (and money) it's been voted on already lets move on (or did we really expect the SNP to let it drop).

Also can anyone explain why Scottish and Welsh residents can get prescriptions for free (or cheap) when I gotta pay full whack just cause I live in a crappy part of England?

~90% of English/Welsh get prescriptions free too I'm afraid Derby. Ridiculous and annoying.

by Derbymanc Wed 15 Mar 2017, 11:46 am

I don't mind normally, but if I stopped taking mine, i'd go nuts and (probably) not be able to work (away anyway) yet it costs me a fortune as except in work situations (ie i'll be away) I can't get them for more than 6 weeks (I think its or 2 months).

Oh well i'd rather pay the tenner and be mentally happy than be a wreck again :-)

by dyrewolfe Wed 15 Mar 2017, 12:33 pm

I'm quite happy to pay for prescriptions.

The pharmaceutical companies who develop drugs, charge extortionate amounts of money, to the point where cancer patients etc. are denied access to new potential treatments, as the NHS can't afford to make them free at the point of use...and the patients can't afford the £1,000s out of their own pockets.

So at the other end of the spectrum, I'm more than happy to cough up (pun intended) to help keep the NHS going.

by **ShahenshahG** Wed 15 Mar 2017, 12:45 pm

The reason they charge extortionate amounts of money is because if their drug research comes to nothing it could collapse normal companies. There is an issue of the patent that it starts when the drug company registers the patent...not when it comes to market. So I think it's 10 or 12 years 6 or 7 of which are spent developing and safety checking the drug. So millions upon millions of research and a 5 year or less limitation in the time it can recoup the losses before some chancer takes over and sells their drug at a low cost without having ever incurred the cost of the hard work. This also leads to big pharma wasting time and money cranking up and making the already sufficient drug unneccesarily efficient so they can reregister it as a new drug and continue to at least make a small profit instead of developing new ones. Hence their delight at the European patent.

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 15 Mar 2017, 9:48 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:I'm quite happy to pay for prescriptions.

The pharmaceutical companies who develop drugs, charge extortionate amounts of money, to the point where cancer patients etc. are denied access to new potential treatments, as the NHS can't afford to make them free at the point of use...and the patients can't afford the £1,000s out of their own pockets.

So at the other end of the spectrum, I'm more than happy to cough up (pun intended) to help keep the NHS going.

To be fair to big pharma, it costs enormous amounts (£billions) to get even a single drug to market. They could probably cut some costs though if we forced the anti-vivisectionists to act as the guinea pigs along the way...

by SecretFly Wed 15 Mar 2017, 11:41 pm

Why go that far Navy when you can use Third World populations instead as guinea pigs?

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/02/testing-drugs-on-the-developing-world/273329/

http://theconversation.com/ethics-vs-economics-the-cost-of-outsourcing-clinical-trials-to-developing-countries-43246

https://vaccineimpact.com/2015/glaxosmithkline-found-guilty-in-deaths-of-14-babies-in-vaccine-trials-in-argentina/

by **superflyweight** Thu 16 Mar 2017, 10:01 am

John Le Carre's book, 'The Constant Gardener' is an excellent insight into the practice of using the third world population as guinea pigs.

by dyrewolfe Thu 16 Mar 2017, 2:13 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:The reason they charge extortionate amounts of money is because if their drug research comes to nothing it could collapse normal companies. There is an issue of the patent that it starts when the drug company registers the patent...not when it comes to market. So I think it's 10 or 12 years 6 or 7 of which are spent developing and safety checking the drug. So millions upon millions of research and a 5 year or less limitation in the time it can recoup the losses before some chancer takes over and sells their drug at a low cost without having ever incurred the cost of the hard work. This also leads to big pharma wasting time and money cranking up and making the already sufficient drug unneccesarily efficient so they can reregister it as a new drug and continue to at least make a small profit instead of developing new ones. Hence their delight at the European patent.

Yeah but pharmaceutical companies are never only R&D-ing 1 single drug. They typically have a range of drugs in development, from the earliest stage, to the point where they are finally seeing profits.

The larger companies (e.g. Astra Zeneca) routinely report net profits in the billions, so its not like they are barely getting by.

While you have to have rigorous testing and safety procedures in place, so as not to put patients at risk, there ought to be SOME areas where they can make efficiencies, to make the development process both faster and cheaper.

I can't help but feel they are either failing to be as efficient as they can, or else are simply artificially inflating the cost for their own benefit...similar to the government's tax on fuel, which grossly inflates the price we pay at the pump.

by **navyblueshorts** Thu 16 Mar 2017, 5:08 pm

SecretFly wrote:Why go that far Navy when you can use Third World populations instead as guinea pigs?

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/02/testing-drugs-on-the-developing-world/273329/

http://theconversation.com/ethics-vs-economics-the-cost-of-outsourcing-clinical-trials-to-developing-countries-43246

https://vaccineimpact.com/2015/glaxosmithkline-found-guilty-in-deaths-of-14-babies-in-vaccine-trials-in-argentina/

That wasn't and isn't my point. Stop going off at a tangent.

by **navyblueshorts** Thu 16 Mar 2017, 5:10 pm

On the sort of subject of Brexit (well, Indyref2), how does it feel Nicola? Not getting your own way? Maybe stamp your feet a bit more? Got a dummy? Spit it out perhaps...

by **navyblueshorts** Thu 16 Mar 2017, 5:15 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:Yeah but pharmaceutical companies are never only R&D-ing 1 single drug. They typically have a range of drugs in development, from the earliest stage, to the point where they are finally seeing profits....

Yeah, but....almost all of their drugs in development (from lead compounds to Phase III trials) don't make it. Those that get to Phase III, but not beyond, cost them billions.
They're not saints, but you want a pill to pop/I.V. infusion/injection? You have to accept that some drugs are very expensive and some of the increasingly significant modern antibody/immunotherapy drugs are amongst those.
Shah's point about IP rights and rights longevity is massively relevant. Ten years exclusive rights after you've spent billions in R&D? No wonder they charge lots...

by CaledonianCraig Thu 16 Mar 2017, 6:15 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:On the sort of subject of Brexit (well, Indyref2), how does it feel Nicola? Not getting your own way? Maybe stamp your feet a bit more? Got a dummy? Spit it out perhaps...

It was expected this would be the result anyway - wait until after Brexit. No big deal as a Tory government who can't even put together a budget without backtracking within a week will not be able to help making a James Hunt of any Brexit deal.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 17 Mar 2017, 8:46 am

by **ShahenshahG** Fri 17 Mar 2017, 11:37 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39304944

Bejesus

by **Pr4wn** Fri 17 Mar 2017, 12:08 pm

Absurdly right wing politician becomes editor of absurdly right wing newspaper.

Shock.

by **ShahenshahG** Tue 28 Mar 2017, 2:18 pm

Nigel is off if it all goes south. A fly with a particularly iridescent thorax landing on a heap of p*gshit. *

*Credit to serial Dave

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 28 Mar 2017, 3:44 pm

Can't stand Farage but he deserves to be made a Lord.......Takes a party by the bollox from basically nothing......Scares the Government into granting a Euro referendum...Wins the Euro elections in 2014 and is basically responsible for Britain leaving Europe. A vote no one thought would go like it did..

Whatever we think about Brexit 50% wanted to leave...

The most impressive politician of the 21st century without a doubt so far and considering faceless seat-losing Lib dems that wanted the Lords abolished have just accepted places in the House of Lords......

... Farage is a shoe in..

by **ShahenshahG** Tue 28 Mar 2017, 4:32 pm

I doubt he will get it should brexit fall flat on it's face but it ought not be a popularity contest, he's achieved very little directly. Failed on every occasion to get elected to UKG and hasn't done any work as an MEP

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 28 Mar 2017, 5:04 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:I doubt he will get it should brexit fall flat on it's face but it ought not be a popularity contest, he's achieved very little directly. Failed on every occasion to get elected to UKG and hasn't done any work as an MEP

In fairness the Tories are in court over Thanet South......They seemed to have over spent by thousands.....

He was UKIP though and UKIP was succesful......It's never easy to praise a guy you don't like.... But along with Galloway..

Credit where it is due...They are powerhouses..

by **ShahenshahG** Tue 28 Mar 2017, 5:26 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/28/meps-veto-brexit-early-cut-off-date-european-parliament-freedom-movement

You might be right but being right doesnt mean it'll go the way it ought to. I think all those little details we didn't know were coming are going to destroy Nigel in the same way Iraq destroyed Blair. Interestingly they had broadly the same level of support for both endeavours.

by **ShahenshahG** Tue 28 Mar 2017, 5:51 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/scottish-independence-blog/live/2017/mar/28/scottish-parliament-debate-independence-refeerendum-indyref2-sturgeon-mayor-urges-eu-citizens-to-press-for-brexit-deal-that-does-not-punish-uk-politics-live

Uh oh.

by **JuliusHMarx** Tue 28 Mar 2017, 10:26 pm

the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the THE

by **ShahenshahG** Wed 29 Mar 2017, 9:10 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the THE

by **rIck_dAgless** Wed 29 Mar 2017, 12:39 pm

All done, would have been quicker to email I suspect.

by **Hero** Wed 29 Mar 2017, 12:50 pm

I was expecting a photo of Farage sticking up the Vs to be sent by fax.

by **rIck_dAgless** Wed 29 Mar 2017, 1:02 pm

So long and thanks for all the fishing quotas...

by **superflyweight** Wed 29 Mar 2017, 1:14 pm

So long and enjoy your straight bananas, Fritz and Pierre!

by SecretFly Wed 29 Mar 2017, 2:26 pm

How old fashioned to have a BBC Special on an auld-time letter being delivered to a Big House in Europe somewhere, with big letters on their front door so that you wouldn't miss them ... but to miss the delivery special bit completely coz people in the pub (Westminster) were too busy talking about other things.

This is the kind on non-conformist, non-EU Loyalty actions by the British that have seen them forcefully removed from the EU Cult!

by **Pr4wn** Wed 29 Mar 2017, 2:48 pm

How hilarious.

by SecretFly Wed 29 Mar 2017, 2:55 pm

Pr4, do you ever do anything but frown malevolently?

by **Pr4wn** Wed 29 Mar 2017, 3:29 pm

I'm not frowning. I'm howling with laughter.

by SecretFly Wed 29 Mar 2017, 3:32 pm

Fake news..... Wink

by Corporalhumblebucket Wed 29 Mar 2017, 4:31 pm

The Article 50 letter is at least welcome in one respect - it's more realistic than most Brexit statements have been about UK's impending loss of control and influence in relation to trade with our largest trading partner, the EU.

"We also understand that there will be consequences for the UK of leaving the EU: we know that we will lose influence over the rules that affect the European economy. We also know that UK companies will, as they trade within the EU, have to align with rules agreed by institutions of which we are no longer a part - just as UK companies do in other overseas markets"

In business sectors where UK has a significant export market to the EU (eg pharmaceuticals) there is every likelihood that UK's "taking back control" domestic regulation will actually end up largely shadowing EU regulations in order to ensure that UK business does not suffer badly.

by **ShahenshahG** Wed 29 Mar 2017, 4:37 pm

The problem is for future regulations corporal and the point of origin rules that will cease making the UK a good place to invest. Merkel has apparently rejected parallel talks. F*CK

by Gwlad Wed 29 Mar 2017, 11:27 pm

Its the end of the UK and GB

Europe will take every chance to stick it to the snooty Brits and even if they dont we'll be last in line every time by statute

We'll struggle desperately to find new markets in the USA and China who knowing our desperation will drill us down on everything. Meanwhile Russia will bully us even more and probably land their planes now, knowing that the USA isn't going to back us nd Europe would dearly love to see us pay.

Scotland will of course leave this time and good luck to them, they were never really in just taking the wedge while they could get it and in doing so break up the Union. They'll be renewed calls and no doubt action for independence from Northern Ireland, hell even the Taffs might fancy a run of it on our own.

Officiially we're done, toast, night night could the last person leaving remember to...

by **Galted** Thu 30 Mar 2017, 7:56 am

I like toast.

by Derbymanc Thu 30 Mar 2017, 8:05 am

I do but have to be careful to make it myself in case the shadowy arm of the government covers it with marmite or some other brain washing crap

by **Galted** Thu 30 Mar 2017, 8:12 am

I used to like French toast but not anymore.

Now I mainly concentrate on toasted cheese and brown toast or white toast.

by **rIck_dAgless** Thu 30 Mar 2017, 8:30 am

Have you ever had a toast sandwich?

by **ShahenshahG** Thu 30 Mar 2017, 8:39 am

Often, In the sandwich toaster. What a wondrous invention

by **rIck_dAgless** Thu 30 Mar 2017, 8:41 am

I mean a piece of buttered toast between 2 rounds of bread

by **Galted** Thu 30 Mar 2017, 8:41 am

rick_dagless wrote:Have you ever had a toast sandwich?

I have but the level of dryness is unpleasant, unless flattened by a dedicated sandwich toaster and flattener such as the Quest Sandwich Maker or the Breville Sandwich Press.

by **Galted** Thu 30 Mar 2017, 8:43 am

rick_dagless wrote:I mean a piece of buttered toast between 2 rounds of bread

I didn't know such a thing existed. I will try it next time I head up north.

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