England training squad this week

First topic message reminder :

Brothers Vunipola missing, as is Joe Launchbury. Mike Williams back in with yet another chance to break his arm. Various other players who missed the AI also back. Beeb picks up on Nathan Catt's inclusion also

Tuilagi back in. Given his current physical state I am just hoping that its not kill or cure, or that Jones doesn't give up on him given he's probably not fully fit yet. Usual 2 scrum halves, Alex Lozowski also in for more experience.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38477218

Forwards: Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamie George (Saracens), Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Tommy Taylor (Wasps), Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints).

Backs: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te'o (Worcester Warriors), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

lostinwales wrote:Robshaw confirmed out of the 6N. Launchbury out of the France game with a calf injury. Kruis still recovering from the cheekbone fracture.

Guess Itoje will be playing in 3 positions at the same time.

One less than his usual 4

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I would be confident Ireland will do well because we tend to be quite disciplined however, we do sometimes have to defend a lot and that's not good news with the new rules.

England are for sure favourites though. No one has defeated them in a while but I think they will lose at least one fixture this year with the championship decided on points and Wales, Ireland and France all in the mix.

I think it helps that we have another 2 full months until we play Ireland, and hopefully we can either bring back a few of the injured players, or at least let the replacements settle.

We also can't get too carried away with bonus points, not in the first two games anyway. Obviously if we get comfortable in either game we can try to put a foot down, but played 2, won 2, pts 8, would be a brilliant start from those opening games.

Dealing a loss to two title rivals early on would be infinitely more valuable than racking up a couple of bonus points, but losing a game. With Italy and Scotland at home, we can go chasing bonus points in Weeks 3 and 4 if Ireland manage to pick up one or two away from home against the same opponents in Week 1 and 2.

It will be a tough opening couple of weeks, and I can see Eddie Jones not issuing any new caps in the first two weeks, or even select any players he hasn't picked before.

I would say a second slam isn't beyond England, but I would say that it certainly isn't the favourite outcome. One thing I would suggest though, is that if England can take it to the last week I think we'll see a better performance under Jones than we did compared to the 2011 and 2013 efforts under Johnson and Lancaster respectively. Still have nightmares thinking about those games!

lostinwales wrote:Robshaw confirmed out of the 6N. Launchbury out of the France game with a calf injury. Kruis still recovering from the cheekbone fracture.

Guess Itoje will be playing in 3 positions at the same time.

You'd think that it would be:

4. Kruis (Ewels)
5. Lawes
6. Itoje
7. Haskell (Wood)
8. Hughes

Brackets being injury dependent.

That would be fine as it is, but with two European games still to come England fans will be watching through our fingers.

I think this years 6ns will be tough for England. I am not saying it was easy last year for England, but with the injuries they have. the first game against France will be a real tester for them. If they win that game, then who knows?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote:I'm not convinced by Wilson. His work rate is outstanding, but I'm not convinced he has the skillset to operate at international level.  In many ways I see him like Ed Slater, a great club player.

I can see your point and I'm kind of in agreement, even as a Falcons fan. What I'd like to see though is how he'd get on with other quality players around him. He has the physical attributes and the workrate to be a Robshaw type player, but can he step it up?

On a similar note, if Robshaw was a Falcons player, I doubt he'd of got into the England set-up.

I think you do Robshaw a disservice. Robshaws England breakthrough came in 2011 where he impressed in a side that went to go onto to win the AP. That's a big difference to standing out in a struggling premiership side IMO. Even when he got capped in 09 quins were clearly on the up (bloodgate aside).

Anyway, point being, if you're in a struggling side (which Newcastle have plainly been over recent years) the better players, flashy or otherwise, will stand out. But it can be difficult to measure just how good they really are, are they standing out because the rest of the team is so poor, can they make the step up? etc.

Newcastle are on some good form at the moment so if that continues and Wilson keeps playing as he is then maybe he will get his chance?

I mean no disrespect towards Newcastle or Wilson, I haven't seen much of either this season, but I just don't buy into the school of thought that if a certain player isn't picked then it's a scandal and there must be some surreptitious reason behind it.

But on the flip side it's easier to slot into a well drilled side do your job and look good.

The team will look good. I disagree that makes individuals look good. If individuals stand out in a good team, well that's really good IMO.

I'd go further than that too, your flaws are more visible in a good team, because they are potentially surrounded by people executing a particular skill well. In a poorer team, you might not notice a players skills are not up to scratch.

For example, lets say a forward is a pretty good player but doesn't have good handling. If he's in a good team you notice, because he's knocking on where others are not. But in a bad team with generally poor handling you don't notice as he is no more prolific than anyone else.

Put Wilson into Saracens though and he'd look amazing. In the end yes you really have to watch the player and gauge how good he is at doing his job. Just because you play for Saracens doesn't make you amazing just as player for Bristol doesn't make you rubbish. There's different pressure but yes cream will rise to the top. I'd prefer us talking about Wilson that someone like Wray.

No one is talking about Wray though, because he doesn't look amazing. Not sure how he is relevant.

Why would Wilson look amazing playing for Saracens?

I can't personally comment on Wilson, but I stand by that putting a player from a struggling team into a successful team will highlight that players flaws and make his strengths seem less impressive by comparison.

If he is really really good and he doesn't have many flaws or his strengths are genuinely ahead of his peers then he will stand out and will probably get the international recognition he deserves. For those reasons it's pretty difficult to judge whether a player from a lower league club can make the step up to international grade, which is probably why he hasn't been picked yet. Doesn't mean it's right/fair, but I can see the logic. It's no travesty in my eyes.

Look at it a slightly different way. If a player wants to be considered for international recognition then it's pretty much accepted that he should be playing at the highest level. This isn't just Rugby, this rings true in all sorts of sports.

Why? Because there's an acceptance that all things are not equal. If you're tearing up trees in the championship it's accepted that that doesn't count for as much because the standard/pressure/expectation is different. What's interesting is that everyone pretty much accepts this, but some people seem to stop making that distinction once you get to the top level and then just think that all clubs within a division are equal. They're not, clearly. So why is it accepted that you should be playing in the top division, but not that you should be playing at a top club?

There was a.past poster who put Wray name around as he played for a very good team. There's no hard and fast rule for players moving a better team some will flourish and 'become better' though I think that's the whole point they don't generally get that much better but more quality around them will highlight them; they also generally get seen more so people start to realise their quality. Some players will sink.

I think you can identify the skill sets of players whether they play for top or bottom. Does.someone as experienced as Jones need to see Wilson play for a top team to decide...doubt it.

Salary cap to consider as well or should we just pick Saracens as they don't have one?

So who is currently out injured?

Mako, Billy, Kruis, Haskell, Marler, Launchbury, Robshaw.

Re Mark Wilson.
Please don't think its just Falcons bias. If you watched some of the dross we've had week in week out over the years and watched him play superbly despite that...and continue shining now that the team is playing very well....then you would understand why all falcons fans are wondering what is going on....

I firmly believe he would be excellent in the England squad. Theres only one way to find out, but that doesn't look like its going to happen so Englands loss is very much our gain!

A past poster, he hasn't gone, has he!?!?!?

Definitely no hard and fast rule, agree with that. But like I said, doesn't seem unreasonable to me to not be bowled over by Wilson's form.

Anyway, I'll nail my colours to the mast that Wilson's eye catching displays count for less because he's playing alongside players who are part of a team that has been demonstrably poor over recent years.

If Newcastle end up finishing in the top 6 this year and Wilson is still head and shoulders above his team mates then I'll be right alongside you championing his cause. For now, lets not get carried away.

So seriously, has he gone?

No 7 & 1/2 I mentioned Wray once or twice but I've hardly been advocating a call up for Wray. When I am vocal about a player it's generally obvious.

Geordiefalcon has been much more enthusiastic about Mark Wilson.

Shame to see no Genge in the squad. It's funny... getting picked when he didn't deserve to but when he deserves to doesn't get in.


Manu shouldn't have been in the squad obviously - even before yet another injury. He can't string games together. Too much harking back to that 2012 game vs NZ when it comes to his selection.

Not been on for a while. Assume he's bigging up Saracens elsewhere. I do think the view you have on Wilson reflects the first view that if he played for Saracens bath wasps he'd be higher up the pecking order.

Oh spoke too soon.

I dunno Geordie, the way things are going Mark might get called up... and immediately injured!

I don't know how serious it was but Haskell looked seriously knackered, he was out before he hit the floor. Robshaw is out, Clifford missed Quins' match against Sale, Harrison has looked out of his depth at international level, Beaumont is playing like a dogs dinner and Kvesic doesn't seem trusted. As others have said the European matches present a very real opportunity for injuries, what if Tom Wood goes down?

I'll mention Underhill again because I want to get him tied up to us, I am sick of the Welsh newspaper trying to tap him up. He may be inexperience but in a nightmare scenario who have we got left who has experience anyway? Robshaw, Wood and Haskell have been around for so long that there aren't that many others who have had a serious look in.

Either way, I'm getting worried.

Saracens don't need bigging up, they are grinding wins without playing outstanding. hopefully will get top 2, be in good shape for the business end.

You don't win trophies in December.

Agree with cascough. If Mark Wilson keeps on performing he'll get the recognition.

cascough wrote:The team will look good. I disagree that makes individuals look good. If individuals stand out in a good team, well that's really good IMO.

I'd go further than that too, your flaws are more visible in a good team, because they are potentially surrounded by people executing a particular skill well. In a poorer team, you might not notice a players skills are not up to scratch.

For example, lets say a forward is a pretty good player but doesn't have good handling. If he's in a good team you notice, because he's knocking on where others are not. But in a bad team with generally poor handling you don't notice as he is no more prolific than anyone else.

Who is making a scandal?

I'm not saying Wilson would shine in a better side but I'd like to see it. He's really not much different to Robshaw who does well in a better side.

I'm not and never have been a huge fan of Robshaw but he does a job and he can do it well. He has no amazing attributes bar workrate which has seen him being acknowledged on the Int stage. I'll admit he's put in some good shifts but to get to the next level I think we need more. I think we'd get more from the following and over the coming years when Haskell is also replaced:

4. Launchbury
5. Kruis
6. Itoje
7. Haskell/? (Underhill?)
8. Billy/Hughes

As far as I'm aware, Underhill cannot be selected due to the agreement with the RFU.

Grinding out the draw anyway.

Sgt Pooly not much different to Robshaw.....

no 7 & 1/2 sorry I didn't realise most teams win or draw when down to 14 men for 70 minutes......

Just correcting your mistake nothing more.

beshocked wrote:No 7 & 1/2 I mentioned Wray once or twice but I've hardly been advocating a call up for Wray. When I am vocal about a player it's generally obvious.

Geordiefalcon has been much more enthusiastic about Mark Wilson.

Shame to see no Genge in the squad. It's funny... getting picked when he didn't deserve to but when he deserves to doesn't get in.


Manu shouldn't have been in the squad obviously - even before yet another injury. He can't string games together. Too much harking back to that 2012 game vs NZ when it comes to his selection.

I have indeed. To be fair, myself, Sgt and Cumbrian often push some of our players. Most is not serious..a bit tongue in cheek but in Marks case im deadly serious. I genuinely think he would stand out in other top sides and would be a good addition to the England squad.

Anyway it doesn't look like that will happen ( not even the Saxons)...so as I said above...Newcastle and our fans aren't complaining...as we get to watch him week in week out.

He's starting to get more media coverage now so you never know gf.

beshocked wrote:Saracens don't need bigging up, they are grinding wins without playing outstanding. hopefully will get top 2, be in good shape for the business end.

You don't win trophies in December.

Agree with cascough. If Mark Wilson keeps on performing he'll get the recognition.

He's been performing for about 4 years with never a flutter in his performances...ie the same as Robshaw!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not been on for a while. Assume he's bigging up Saracens elsewhere. I do think the view you have on Wilson reflects the first view that if he played for Saracens bath wasps he'd be higher up the pecking order.

Playing for? No.

Shining for? Yes.

Consider this, a player is...

1.Playing in a good team, looking good.
2.Playing in a good team, looking average.
3.Playing in a poor team, looking good.
4.Playing in a poor team, looking average.

We can agree a player has to look good, right? We're not advocating calling players up for simply playing alright, are we? So we can get rid of 2 and 4. I think 1 counts for more than 3. That's all.

It's not a mistake. Saracens have been grinding out wins. 10 to be exact. 1 draw and 2 losses. It's good.

1 draw doesn't make what I said a mistake.

Anyway stop turning another thread into about you and me.

This thread is about England training squad.

It's not an outstanding squad but not too far off where it should be.

I wouldn't have Yarde or Teo in there either but it's what Jones wants.

Oh great....you're back.

I meant Wilson has attributes like Robshaw, he's a workhorse who has an incredible engine. Wilson has shone in a poor team, off a poor platform for years, who knows if he went to a better team.

Robshaw has better hands and a great rugby brain, more so than Wilson. Wilson is more physical and better on the deck, also a better at carrying.

But not all the best players play for top clubs cascough. Not all can. So surely we should judge on the player not who he plays for?

True beshocked. Corrected and moved on.

Having same attributes doesn't mean that you can do them as well.

Robshaw is never going to be a crowd favourite but he's been very consistent at international level.

Has Wilson shone though? Surely if he did then he would have more recognition?

Does England really need a lesser version of Robshaw to get to the next level?

England needs players who can add something.  I think that's why so many fans have been infatuated by Manu - he had a bit of X factor though he's obviously struggled for gametime.

No 7&1/2 wrote:But not all the best players play for top clubs cascough. Not all can. So surely we should judge on the player not who he plays for?

True beshocked. Corrected and moved on.

I think that's a critical factor 7.5

beshocked wrote:Having same attributes doesn't mean that you can do them as well.

Robshaw is never going to be a crowd favourite but he's been very consistent at international level.

Has Wilson shone though? Surely if he did then he would have more recognition?

Does England really need a lesser version of Robshaw to get to the next level?

England needs players who can add something.  I think that's why so many players have been infatuated by Manu - he had a bit of X factor though he's obviously struggled for gametime.

That's the point though....he HAS shone. Its just for so long he played for a team that was playing woeful stuff so few watched our games...hence no recognition!

Nobody is saying Wilson should be playing. Id just like to see him playing in a good side to see if he steps up.

How can you fairly judge a player if they aren't performing at the highest level? The toughest tests are the big games like those in the HC and international level.

Being AP standard isn't the same as being a higher level.

Harrison for example, still unsure if he can step up. Sadly Goode looks like he's not in favour and perhaps his chance of future England caps are looking slim.

If you play for poor teams you don't have the same experience playing in the toughest games.

Not all players can play for top clubs.why ignore someone due to the inability of some to be unable to judge a players skill set?

I can say one thing for sure....Harrison v Wilson is not even a competition. Yet Harrison is in the squad....

No 7 & 1/2 not all players can play for top clubs but many move to improve their chances of being recognised.

To be picked you need to stand out, should be easier in a poor team surely?

beshocked wrote:How can you fairly judge a player if they aren't performing at the highest level? The toughest tests are the big games like those in the HC and international level.

Being AP standard isn't the same as being a higher level.

Harrison for example, still unsure if he can step up. Sadly Goode looks like he's not in favour and perhaps his chance of future England caps are looking slim.

If you play for poor teams you don't have the same experience playing in the toughest games.

Surely this is the idea of the Saxons though...to give those players a chance to show what they can do and the coaches a chance to look at them???

beshocked wrote:No 7 & 1/2 not all players can play for top clubs but many move to improve their chances of being recognised.

To be picked you need to stand out, should be easier in a poor team surely?

And surely logic says if your standing out in a poor side...then you are a good player and deserve to be looked at!

So, if you dont play in the HC you cant play for England? Bizarre.

I agree players need to be tested at a higher level but some players don't have that oppertunity due to their club.

Obviously Wilson isn't standing out enough for him to supplant Harrison in Jones' opinion.

Perhaps it's a minor mistake but I am not convinced Wilson would add much more.

With Haskell's injury maybe another flanker might be drafted in.

Sgt Pooly it's sometimes why players move club, to try and improve their chances of international recognition and play in competitions like the HC.

But even then beshocked top clubs have a salary cap so not all the best players can play for a top club. Hence judge the player.

No 7&1/2 wrote:But not all the best players play for top clubs cascough. Not all can. So surely we should judge on the player not who he plays for?

True beshocked. Corrected and moved on.

I don't entirely disagree with this statement. My point is it's very difficult to judge the player alone. I will pick you up on something though, I'm not judging the team he plays for, that's merely an indicator for success. I'm holding him up against his team mates, the same team mates that have contributed to a successful side.

To take it to the extreme, Rhys Preistland would look great if he turned out for my local rugby side. Everyone would be lauding him as the teams best player. But then my local rugby team are chock full of sh1te and flounder in the lower leagues for that reason, he's bound to look good. That he is head and shoulders above his team mates clearly counts for less in that situation.

Same logic applies here, just not quite so extreme, obviously.

That's the extreme, but it's a sliding scale right, apply that same thinking

I'd like to distance myself from Beshocked at this point. I feel we are making different points.

I'm not saying Wilson isn't a good player. I'm not saying he isn't standing out. I'm saying, given his current situation it's very hard to judge how good he actually is.

Anyone else worried about the occasionally indifferent form of half-backs George Ford and Ben Youngs?

Both have done well for Jones, so it's hard to imagine him overlooking either of them. Still, they'll be working behind a largely unfamiliar pack, so I'd feel better if both were looking consistently sharper.

So it comes down to judging the player cascough. Not Wilson fault he's playing for Newcastle. Having watched him I think he'd be a success at a top club seems to have a well rounded game. With the injuries to England I think he'll be in jones thoughts.

But surely if he is playing for a side that's been floundering at the bottom...yet still standing out against Saracens, Bath, Wasps etc etc then he's proving how good a player he is.

Lets get it clear...im not saying he should be starting for England! Im saying he should have been looked at and in the Saxons at the least especially with so many injuries!

no 7 & 1/2 surely there would be numerous teams chasing the signing of Wilson if he was as good as you believe?

Maybe Wilson is underrated but he's still mostly an unproven player. Perhaps a change in club is what is needed.

If Wilson replaced Harrison it wouldn't bother me either way.

Rugby fan after the AIs, no I am not worried as I have been.

Youngs looked like a headless chicken for Tigers but played well for England, Ford's England form in general has been good.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 surely there would be numerous teams chasing the signing of Wilson if he was as good as you believe?

Maybe Wilson is underrated but he's still mostly an unproven player. Perhaps a change in club is what is needed.

If Wilson replaced Harrison it wouldn't bother me either way.

Ah not this again....