England training squad this week

First topic message reminder :

Brothers Vunipola missing, as is Joe Launchbury. Mike Williams back in with yet another chance to break his arm. Various other players who missed the AI also back. Beeb picks up on Nathan Catt's inclusion also

Tuilagi back in. Given his current physical state I am just hoping that its not kill or cure, or that Jones doesn't give up on him given he's probably not fully fit yet. Usual 2 scrum halves, Alex Lozowski also in for more experience.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38477218

Forwards: Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamie George (Saracens), Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Tommy Taylor (Wasps), Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints).

Backs: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te'o (Worcester Warriors), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Perhaps there are clubs chasing him, is his contract running out? Perhaps some clubs have a budget to balance so can't. You don't think he's good enough? Fine. I think he could do well if picked. Harrison has showed flashes but had some fairly big downs for England.

Geordiefalcon yes Wilson should be looked at perhaps.

If we ignore the back row (and half backs) for a minute, but this will be relevant - honest.


If we look at Full back we can see that:

1) Jones will include players from poor performing sides (Mike Haley)
2) Jones does not give much credit for club performances (no Alex Goode)
3) Jones gives great store by international form (Mike Brown)


It seems clear that Eddie likes to see certain things from players, most obviously a physical abrasive nature and a willingness to work hard. He does fire rockets up players sometimes and has used the training squads to enable him to look at players in an environment he values - i.e. working under his supervision alongside and against peers and contenders.

Is he always right? Hell no!

He perhaps makes as many mistakes as correct calls (or close) but will spot the mistake quickly and change accordingley. He will not tinker with what is working.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So it comes down to judging the player cascough. Not Wilson fault he's playing for Newcastle. Having watched him I think he'd be a success at a top club seems to have a well rounded game. With the injuries to England I think he'll be in jones thoughts.

"Judge the player" You keep saying that, and I keep saying I don't think you can easily do that in his situation as not all is equal, I've given examples to you to try an illustrate my thought process, but let's leave that one alone shall we, I'm sure it's bloody boring for everyone else!

"Not Wilsons fault" I find this more interesting. I think if any player has serious international ambitions then they need to consider moving to a top club if they want to make that happen. I cant believe that notion is a new thing?! There are ALWAYs exceptions, of course. But this isn't a new idea?

cascough wrote:...Rhys Preistland would look great if he turned out for my local rugby side. Everyone would be lauding him as the teams best player...

It's not about looking better than mediocre team mates, it's about performing well against good opposition. Local rugby sides play other local rugby sides. The bottom tier of the Premiership spends half the season playing the top tier.

GeordieFalcon wrote:But surely if he is playing for a side that's been floundering at the bottom...yet still standing out against Saracens, Bath, Wasps etc etc then he's proving how good a player he is.

Lets get it clear...im not saying he should be starting for England! Im saying he should have been looked at and in the Saxons at the least especially with so many injuries!

I agree with the principle of your arguement here, mate. Only I'm not so interested in 1 off games. You can always catch a team at a good time etc. But like I said earlier, if Newcastle carry on and over the course of an entire season prove themselves to be a good team (ie finish in the top 6) If we look back and go, Wilson was great for Newcastle this year, a season where we had a great season, then I'm all over getting him the recognition.

I guess. Doesn't make Wilson a different player though playing for Wasps.

Incidentally, while Ford and Youngs are hitting a few bum notes for their clubs, worth saying that Lawes, Itoje, and Nowell are all playing well.

I would like to point out that Lenny's form is better now for Tigers than it was before the AIs. Along with most of us here I would have been happy to see someone like Robson get a go, but his performances in the AIs then showed potentially how meaningless club form actually is.

cascough wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:But surely if he is playing for a side that's been floundering at the bottom...yet still standing out against Saracens, Bath, Wasps etc etc then he's proving how good a player he is.

Lets get it clear...im not saying he should be starting for England! Im saying he should have been looked at and in the Saxons at the least especially with so many injuries!

I agree with the principle of your arguement here, mate. Only I'm not so interested in 1 off games. You can always catch a team at a good time etc. But like I said earlier, if Newcastle carry on and over the course of an entire season prove themselves to be a good team (ie finish in the top 6) If we look back and go, Wilson was great for Newcastle this year, a season where we had a great season, then I'm all over getting him the recognition.

But Wilson has been playing like this for about 4/5 years now! Its not one off games...this is what im trying to get through to everyone. its not a flash in a pan couple of games!!!

No 7&1/2 wrote:I guess. Doesn't make Wilson a different player though playing for Wasps.

No, nor did I say it would/does/ever will do. I'm not casting aspersions on Wilson's ability.

If he stands out at Wasps though, it will make it easier to determine if he is a genuinely good player, IMO!!!!

It isn't, GF. However there is something that Eddie does not see in him, as I am unwilling to believe he has not at least looked at Falcons. My guess would be that he feels that others offer a greater physicality at the breakdown/tackle area.

Very Possibly LT....but in my humble opinion I cant see who that would be. Harrison?? No way. Williams?? Not sure at all...Wood?? Hhmmmm

Anyway Ive done that to death and I know we all push our own players.....you know my feelings and ill shut up

I am not a fan of Harrison. I believe he blows hot and cold for Saints, his best position is unclear and he has lacked the physicality needed for tests.

Mike Williams is really being selected on a hunch, and performances at training sessions.

I agree cascough it would be easier but Jones or any other top scout doesn't need that.

I could be wrong but believe Flatman was talking up Wilson recently in one of the AP highlights programs.

As for Robshaw he might only be a donkey but he is about as good a donkey as we are likely to find. He is the guy who does the work that lets everyone else do their thing. He would not keep on getting picked if Jones didnt rate him.

lostinwales wrote:I could be wrong but believe Flatman was talking up Wilson recently in one of the AP highlights programs.

As for Robshaw he might only be a donkey but he is about as good a donkey as we are likely to find. He is the guy who does the work that lets everyone else do their thing. He would not keep on getting picked if Jones didnt rate him.

I think he has been one of England's best players for the past 12 months, chases everything, always in the right place, lets others do the glory work. I am worried we are about to see just how good he is.

Harrison - I don't get it he's been ordinary for England, not to say he can't be better but leave him with his club and let him get better.

The backrow is really going to worry me going into the six nations.

On the plus side Jack Nowell just looks excellent at the moment.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

cascough wrote:The team will look good. I disagree that makes individuals look good. If individuals stand out in a good team, well that's really good IMO.

I'd go further than that too, your flaws are more visible in a good team, because they are potentially surrounded by people executing a particular skill well. In a poorer team, you might not notice a players skills are not up to scratch.

For example, lets say a forward is a pretty good player but doesn't have good handling. If he's in a good team you notice, because he's knocking on where others are not. But in a bad team with generally poor handling you don't notice as he is no more prolific than anyone else.

Who is making a scandal?

I'm not saying Wilson would shine in a better side but I'd like to see it. He's really not much different to Robshaw who does well in a better side.

I'm not and never have been a huge fan of Robshaw but he does a job and he can do it well. He has no amazing attributes bar workrate which has seen him being acknowledged on the Int stage. I'll admit he's put in some good shifts but to get to the next level I think we need more. I think we'd get more from the following and over the coming years when Haskell is also replaced:

4. Launchbury
5. Kruis
6. Itoje
7. Haskell/? (Underhill?)
8. Billy/Hughes

As far as I'm aware, Underhill cannot be selected due to the agreement with the RFU.

I read somewhere that if there is an injury crisis he can be called up, think is ridiculous that England can't call up an English because he studying somewhere else.

Cumbrian wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

cascough wrote:The team will look good. I disagree that makes individuals look good. If individuals stand out in a good team, well that's really good IMO.

I'd go further than that too, your flaws are more visible in a good team, because they are potentially surrounded by people executing a particular skill well. In a poorer team, you might not notice a players skills are not up to scratch.

For example, lets say a forward is a pretty good player but doesn't have good handling. If he's in a good team you notice, because he's knocking on where others are not. But in a bad team with generally poor handling you don't notice as he is no more prolific than anyone else.

Who is making a scandal?

I'm not saying Wilson would shine in a better side but I'd like to see it. He's really not much different to Robshaw who does well in a better side.

I'm not and never have been a huge fan of Robshaw but he does a job and he can do it well. He has no amazing attributes bar workrate which has seen him being acknowledged on the Int stage. I'll admit he's put in some good shifts but to get to the next level I think we need more. I think we'd get more from the following and over the coming years when Haskell is also replaced:

4. Launchbury
5. Kruis
6. Itoje
7. Haskell/? (Underhill?)
8. Billy/Hughes

As far as I'm aware, Underhill cannot be selected due to the agreement with the RFU.

I read somewhere that if there is an injury crisis he can be called up, think is ridiculous that England can't call up an English because he studying somewhere else.

I think that "exceptional circumstances" has been clarified so we now know that it refers to injuries and not exceptional form by a player playing outside of England. It really does mean exceptional though, it has to be to the point where calling up the next available English player would be bordering on unsafe.

It's also worth noting that Underhill is at Cardiff Uni and plays for Ospreys (based in Swansea). That's an hour away by Google Maps reckoning. It would only be an hour to Bristol, 1hr 17mins to Bath and 1hr 19mins to Gloucester (where he was previously), so he could move back to the Premiership without changing university.

Or they could call up Mark Wilson

GeordieFalcon wrote:Or they could call up Mark Wilson

He's definitely ahead of Underhill in the pecking order, whether Eddie Jones rates him or not.

Nobody is going to be dropped into the squad from outside at short notice. And if they were - can you imagine the pressure of trying to play in an international in an unfamiliar team when you have been hyped to the nth degree because you have been dropped in that way. And then the media disappointment with the 'average' performance afterwards

Would be a great way to kill a career before it has even started

with Robshaw missing this 6N, do you think his England days are over? he will be 32 during the next world cup so maybe worth giving game time to a younger flanker...

Underhill has barely played this season due to missing a serious injury. Hes had a few appearances from the bench.

Also hes stated he intends to be with the Ospreys for the duration of his contract so hands off!

Couple of min from the bench against italy just to tie him up and stop this horrible poaching I keep hearing of.

whocares wrote:with Robshaw missing this 6N, do you think his England days are over? he will be 32 during the next world cup so maybe worth giving game time to a younger flanker...

I think his Lions chances are looking slim now he won't be in any more key international rugby this year. However, Jones probably wouldn't mind having him along in Argentina if he loses a lot of his other experienced players to NZ. If, instead, he leaves him at home, then it would signal curtains.

When asked about Hartley, Jones talked about getting basic principles sorted in his first two seasons and then building on it (the implication being he'd look to introduce better players). George is already challenging Hartley for his position, so it would be no surprise for Jones to want more pressing back row competition too.

whocares wrote:with Robshaw missing this 6N, do you think his England days are over? he will be 32 during the next world cup so maybe worth giving game time to a younger flanker...

Jones will perforce give gametime to a younger flanker this 6N unless he ends up going with Haskell and Wood. As for whether Robshaw's international days are over, there are a few factors.

What Lions chances he might have had are basically gone, which is a real shame for him. The only ways I can see him touring are a freak run of injuries or Eddie putting in a "mate, you'd be a flaming idiot not to take him" call to Gatland. Which could happen. Gatland might even listen.

For England, can someone else can both fill the role and stay fit? Players who can do that have been in short supply. The pundits seem to think that Itoje can, but Eddie has never described him as anything other than "a lock who can play 6 at a pinch".

My guess is that Eddie will have him back in the squad. He likes what he does off the pitch in setting standards and supporting other players, and about how he responds to what's asked of him. He's also a 50-cap international and has a strong injury record. With only 30 or so tests to RWC2019, so that experience can't be duplicated.

I disagree with Rugby Fan. I don't think whether Robshaw tours Argentina is that relevant. I think it's possible that he will do what Lancaster did and give him a summer off to rest and recover before picking him again in the autumn. Though no doubt the pundits will write him off.

Back in 2013 the squad was announced at the end of April so assuming a similar timeframe this time (anyone know the exact date?)? Theoretically that gives Robshaw the month of April to demonstrate his fitness and some form so not impossible, but obviously greatly reduces his chances in an area where the Lions do have plenty of options. Taking anyone who is not fully fit is not a sensible option. But if he plays 3 matches in April then he has a chance of making the plane.

As for England I think he remains part of the plans until someone clearly better comes along. At the moment that really is only playing Itoje at 6 to accommodate 2 other world class locks, which is not a bad option.

whocares wrote:with Robshaw missing this 6N, do you think his England days are over? he will be 32 during the next world cup so maybe worth giving game time to a younger flanker...

32 is hardly past it, ( and as I am WELL PAST IT, I know) a lot of excellent flankers and Robson is an excellent international flanker, have played at an impressive level well into mid thirties. 2023 may be a bit to far for him, but he would still be only 36 so not beyond a bench spot.

whocares wrote:with Robshaw missing this 6N, do you think his England days are over? he will be 32 during the next world cup so maybe worth giving game time to a younger flanker...

Is 32 old for a flanker?

It really depends on whether the players replacing him can play as well as him. If not, and to be honest that could go either way- Itoje and a few others have great potential, but Robshaw is an excellent, excellent player at all levels (I've so rarely seen him have a bad game personally as a player that I can't actually recall the last one even when he was being slated for England) - then why bring in an inferior player just to look to the future when Jones makes it clear that his policy is the opposite and we have seen teams thriving with elder good players like POC and McCaw without actually struggling to bring in their successors?


Also, I laughed earlier at the suggestion that Wilson is the same as Robshaw (maybe he is, he's been solid when I've seen him but it's a HUGE claim, Robshaw statistically has the second best international workrate per minute after Pocock and that's including impact players off the bench, has outplayed almost every highly vaunted international flanker he's been on the pitch with at least once, has been AP player of the year at 6 and 7, has ludicrous international defensive stats and despite not apparently being any good at the breakdown was recently the top turnover winner in the 6N) but more so that right now Robshaw benefits from playing in a better team. Maybe on paper he should, but right now Falcons are a better side than Quins, without a doubt

Nobody said Wilson was the same. I suggested he had similar attributes which he does in a way. Wilson has the highest number of tackles in the AP for example.

Robshaw rarely gets slated as he's not a hugely noticable player. He just gets on with his work, much like Wilson.

Im not a huge fan of Robshaw personally, but he has good hands and a good brain. He'll never be world class but hes a solid pro.

Fair enough Pooly. My comment was more an opportunity for a pro Robshaw rant and to point out that right now, though I agree that Falcons are underrepresented and Quins overrepresented for England honours, Quins are not a better side to be playing in and enhancing one's game than Falcons. Hopefully that can change again soon, but Falcons look a top 6 side minimum, Quins top 6 maximum right now

I dont think we do CJ, top 6 is a push. Falcons historically are a poor side who play poor rugby. It'll take more than 4 or so games to change peoples perceptions, mine included.

LondonTiger wrote:I am not a fan of Harrison. I believe he blows hot and cold for Saints, his best position is unclear and he has lacked the physicality needed for tests.

Disagree somewhat. I think he was fantastic pretty consistently for the whole of last season - our best player. This year unfortunately he hasn't found the same level and that's when he's had gametime for England. I still think he's a very talented player, hopefully he can recapture his best form. Sadly he's been written off by many as a 24 year old with 4 caps.

He played largely at 8 last year and despite the lack of size compared to most 8s around I think carries pretty well and puts in a shift tackling. The problem is he's never going to be picked at 8 over Picamoles so now he's shifted to 7. He tackles well, competes pretty well at the breakdown and I think in time could do a job there for England. However, not until he's playing consistently well again.

True Raven wrote:Underhill has barely played this season due to missing a serious injury.  Hes had a few appearances from the bench.  

Also hes stated he intends to be with the Ospreys for the duration of his contract so hands off!

WOL reporting Underhill has agreed to move to Bath next season (before the end of his contract) - Ospreys to receive 150K compensation.

Joe marler has fractured his leg. The is getting ridiculous, we are in trouble in the front row. Matt Mullan is now first choice? He has been pinged off the park this season. Back up of Nathan Catt worries me too, he is a good pro but is he international level? I am really not sure.

Perhaps time for Waller, Ruskin? Or maybe Bobby Vickers?

Cumbrian wrote:Joe marler has fractured his leg. The is getting ridiculous, we are in trouble in the front row. Matt Mullan is now first choice? He has been pinged off the park this season. Back up of Nathan Catt worries me too, he is a good pro but is he international level? I am really not sure.

Slightly worried that might tempt Jones to go with Haskell if he shows he he can stand up straight for 10 seconds. Would prefer the Hask to have more playing time before turning out in Tests.

True Raven wrote:Underhill has barely played this season due to missing a serious injury.  Hes had a few appearances from the bench.  

Also hes stated he intends to be with the Ospreys for the duration of his contract so hands off!

If that's his intention then fair play to him, my point about the distances was that he does have the option of playing in England and studying at Cardiff Uni, so the fact that he's playing in Wales for "legitimate reasons" as some sort of exceptional circumstance holds less weight.

Logged on because I read on Twitter that Bath were poking about. Nothing substantial yet and obviously nothing from the player on it, but interesting for England fans none-the-less.

If he is coming back to England to play then I agree it is a little to early for him, whose stupid idea was it to include him in these discussions anyway?

I wonder if Genge will be looked at again if Marler drops out?
Mullan has shown that he can do a job at test level and is playing a high tempo game with Wasps so should slot in well with EJs plans.
Agree that this injury list is getting a bit much - So who is on the injured list?

Marler, Robshaw, Mako V, Billy V, George Kruis, Launchbury, Hask ??, Tuilagi (irrelevant anyway),

Genge is surely next in line. He was huge against Wasps at the weekend.

It's a great chance for Mullan to step up. Given he was left out of the AIs squad he will really be getting thrown back in the deep end.

Depending on the nature of Marler's break, he could be back before the end of the 6N.

Given the description (calf pain rather than shin, initially not diagnosed as a break) I am guessing it's a stress fracture of the fibula rather than anything more dramatic (would be interesting to know what doc grey thinks). If that is what it is, it's generally a 6 week recovery time so there's a chance he could be back for Scotland and Ireland.

Either way, Eddie's going to be going into the 6N with a lot of backup players in his pack. Should learn a lot.

Poorfour wrote:Depending on the nature of Marler's break, he could be back before the end of the 6N.

Given the description (calf pain rather than shin, initially not diagnosed as a break) I am guessing it's a stress fracture of the fibula rather than anything more dramatic (would be interesting to know what doc grey thinks). If that is what it is, it's generally a 6 week recovery time so there's a chance he could be back for Scotland and Ireland.

Either way, Eddie's going to be going into the 6N with a lot of backup players in his pack. Should learn a lot.

Press release from Quins: Marler should be back playing in 4-5 weeks. He'll miss France and probably Scotland but could be back for Italy.

In other news, Saturday's winning lottery numbers will be....

king_carlos wrote:Genge is surely next in line. He was huge against Wasps at the weekend.

Genge was actually dropped from the elite squad, so is nominally behind Mullan and Catt in the pecking order. However, Genge is being talked up again, so, if he's included as a replacement for Marler, then he might yet leapfrog back up.

Not sure if injury replacements are allowed to stay with the squad once the bloke they replaced returns. It would make sense for that to be allowed for continuity purposes.

Rugby Fan wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Genge is surely next in line. He was huge against Wasps at the weekend.

Genge was actually dropped from the elite squad, so is nominally behind Mullan and Catt in the pecking order. However, Genge is being talked up again, so, if he's included as a replacement for Marler, then he might yet leapfrog back up.

Not sure if injury replacements are allowed to stay with the squad once the bloke they replaced returns. It would make sense for that to be allowed for continuity purposes.

I think in international windows a coach can call up whomever he likes. The EPS is just about access to players outside those windows.

Well, now we get to see if we have strength in depth. Having had few significant injuries in the last 18 months, we are now here:

Missing entire 6Ns
Mako V
Billy V
Robshaw
Manu (well, there's a shock)

Missing start of tournament:
Marler

Possbly missing start:
Launchbury
Kruis
Haskell

Lacking match practice:
Hartley.

So of the preferred starting pack in the AIs, we are left with Dan Cole, Courtney Lawes and Tom Woods fit

1.Mullan 2.Hartley 3.Cole 4.Launchbury 5.Kruis 6.Itoje 7.Haskell 8.Hughes
9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Joseph 14.Watson 15.Brown

16.George 17.Genge/Catt 18.Sinckler 19.Lawes 20.Clifford 21.Care 22.Daly 23.Nowell

Best case scenario from now (i.e. before the final 2 group stages for European cups) is something like that.

With Lawes, Wood and Slade also in with very good shouts if guys go down injured.

From that Hartley and Kruis wont have played any rugby between now and the France game - if they are fit for it of course. Haskell will also be very short of game time.

Wasn't there a ? over Clifford too?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I dont think we do CJ, top 6 is a push. Falcons historically are a poor side who play poor rugby. It'll take more than 4 or so games to change peoples perceptions, mine included.