6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February

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SCOTLAND v IRELAND 
4 February 2017
KO: 14:25
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Touch judges: Jaco Peyper (South Africa) and Nick Briant (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand

Live on BBC, RTE, DMAX, FR2, ITV (H)

A. Head to Head

132 Played 132
66 Won 61 
5 Drawn 5
61 Lost 66
1,380 Points 1,475

B. Recent Form

19 March 2016
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
35 – 25 to Ireland

15 August 2015
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
28 – 22 to Ireland

21 March 2015
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
10 – 40 to Ireland

2 February 2014
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
28 – 6 to Ireland

24 February 2013
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
12 – 8 to Scotland

10 March 2012
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
32 – 14 to Ireland

6 August 2011
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
10 – 6 to Scotland

27 February 2011
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
18 – 21 to Ireland

20 March 2010
Croke Park, Dublin
20 – 23 to Scotland

C. Teams

SCOTLAND 

15-Stuart Hogg; 14-Sean Maitland, 13-Huw Jones, 12-Alex Dunbar, 11-Tommy Seymour; 10-Finn Russell, 9-Greig Laidlaw (capt); 1-Allan Dell, 2-Fraser Brown, 3-Zander Fagerson, 4-Richie Gray, 5-Jonny Gray, 6-Ryan Wilson, 7-Hamish Watson, 8-Josh Strauss

Replacements: 16-Ross Ford, 17-Gordon Reid, 18-Simon Berghan, 19-Tim Swinson, 20-John Barclay, 21-Ali Price, 22-Duncan Weir, 23-Mark Bennett

IRELAND

15-Rob Kearney; 14-Keith Earls, 13-Robbie Henshaw, 12-Garry Ringrose, 11-Simon Zebo; 10-Paddy Jackson, 9-Conor Murray; 1-Jack McGrath, 2-Rory Best (captain), 3-Tadhg Furlong, 4-Iain Henderson, 5-Devin Toner, 6-CJ Stander, 7-Sean O'Brien, 8-Jamie Heaslip

Replacements: 16-Niall Scannell, 17-Cian Healy, 18-John Ryan, 19-Ultan Dillane, 20-Josh van der Flier, 21-Kieran Marmion, 22-Ian Keatley, 23-Tommy Bowe.

SecretFly wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Did Poite mess up by allowing Laidlaw over a minute to take Scotland's last penalty? Did this deny Ireland one last chance of a restart and possibly one last attack? Does it matter?

It doesn't matter.  We were beaten in the first half, not the second.  

We were ahead with 20 mins to go, that should have been closed out but wasnt

We would have been more ahead had we not gone into the game smug and thinking less effort than the ones against New Zealand and Australia would still get us through.  Slow game sawing is killing us.  The first half killed us.  Laidlaw and Scotland have my blessing for getting every millisecond out of their kicking option.

Not convinced that's what happened. I think Scotland raised their game a lot, introduced some very smart plays and tactically were better than Ireland.

tigertattie wrote:Laidlaw knew fine well what he was doing! He was taking his time for the kick to wait until the clock went dead!

There is no rule on how long a kicker can take to make the kick, the ref can tell them to "hurry up" if they are taking the mick but that's it. Usually around the minute mark is given for a penalty.

Personally I think there should be a time limit on how long they can take.  Look at Biggar for Wales or Foley for Oz, sometimes they take an absolute age before taking a kick!

And theatrical build-ups with eyes or shifty shoulders...well, those moments should get a straight red card. I've had enough of ballroom dancing on the hallowed turf of a rugby field!

Loved Scotland's line out move for the Dunbar try. Real daylight robbery stuff. Always appreciate well thought out innovative moves. Completely fooled the Ireland pack and that doesnt happen too often.

Ireland seemed overconfident to me but were blown away in the first half.

Spirited come back but the Scottish defense was too much.

munkian wrote:Ireland seemed overconfident to me but were blown away in the first half.

Spirited come back but the Scottish defense was too much.

Based on what?

Scottrf wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Laidlaw knew fine well what he was doing! He was taking his time for the kick to wait until the clock went dead!

There is no rule on how long a kicker can take to make the kick, the ref can tell them to "hurry up" if they are taking the mick but that's it. Usually around the minute mark is given for a penalty.

Personally I think there should be a time limit on how long they can take.  Look at Biggar for Wales or Foley for Oz, sometimes they take an absolute age before taking a kick!

There is a time limit. A minute from the signal of the intention to kick for goal.

Exactly, and Laidlaw told the ref he was going to kick at goal after 79 minutes, and I am assuming that is the point that the tee came on as well...?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Did Poite mess up by allowing Laidlaw over a minute to take Scotland's last penalty? Did this deny Ireland one last chance of a restart and possibly one last attack? Does it matter?

It doesn't matter.  We were beaten in the first half, not the second.  

We were ahead with 20 mins to go, that should have been closed out but wasnt

We would have been more ahead had we not gone into the game smug and thinking less effort than the ones against New Zealand and Australia would still get us through.  Slow game sawing is killing us.  The first half killed us.  Laidlaw and Scotland have my blessing for getting every millisecond out of their kicking option.

Not convinced that's what happened. I think Scotland raised their game a lot, introduced some very smart plays and tactically were better than Ireland.

Well we differ in the interpretation.  
Like I said earlier, Ireland have this idea that they can pace themselves to the 'bigger' games when playing through series.  They tried it in the last world cup and were so sluggish against Italy that it damn near stopped them getting out of the pool once again.  And they are repeat offender at the 6N.  
The others more consistently punch hard/or try to through all their games.  We have our usual two or so walking paced games of 'it'll do'.  The bonus points system is a rude awakening to that habit.  Thanks Scotland for the rude awakening.  It might yet prove beneficial in the medium to long term.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Loved Scotland's line out move for the Dunbar try. Real daylight robbery stuff. Always appreciate well thought out innovative moves. Completely fooled the Ireland pack and that doesnt happen too often.

But does it? I seem to recall Wales and others doing it to us a few times and me screaming at them "Expect the unexpected from these cute Welsh basterdes, you eejits!"

They'll learn some day I suppose.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08dbfsb/six-nations-rugby-2017-scotland-v-ireland

Laidlaw tells the ref he is going to kick at goal on 79:05

SecretFly wrote:

Well we differ in the interpretation.  
Like I said earlier, Ireland have this idea that they can pace themselves to the 'bigger' games when playing through series. They tried it in the last world cup and were so sluggish against Italy that it damn near stopped them getting out of the pool once again.  And they are repeat offender at the 6N.  
The others more consistently punch hard/or try to through all their games.  We have our usual two or so walking paced games of 'it'll do'.  The bonus points system is a rude awakening to that habit.  Thanks Scotland for the rude awakening.  It might yet prove beneficial in the medium to long term.

Not sure there is any evidence that Ireland consciously pace themselves against anyone. It was an away game against Scotland in Murrayfield on the first day of the championship. I very much doubt you are right.

According to SOB in his post match interview he felt they showed Scotland too much respect.

RDW_Scotland wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08dbfsb/six-nations-rugby-2017-scotland-v-ireland

Laidlaw tells the ref he is going to kick at goal on 79:05

Sneaky sausage.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Loved Scotland's line out move for the Dunbar try. Real daylight robbery stuff. Always appreciate well thought out innovative moves. Completely fooled the Ireland pack and that doesnt happen too often.

Two backs in the lineout should have sounded all kinds of alarm bells but not one Irish player took any notice. The fact that Dunbar and Seymour were at standing together at the front end of the lineout should have been covered even if it had eventually been a ruse. It displays just how off the game Ireland were in the first half. I don't think it was complacency but more the feverish pace Scotland started with that Ireland weren't prepared for. Our narrow defence has been our doom on more than one occasion, something you'd think would be sorted by now.

I would also like to single Laidlaw out. Quite often he gets a bit of stick from some posters on here but he was a bug reason we won on Saturday.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08dbfsb/six-nations-rugby-2017-scotland-v-ireland

Laidlaw tells the ref he is going to kick at goal on 79:05

Sneaky sausage.

Well, yes. I have no doubt that Laidlaw knew exactly what he was doing, and waited long enough to make sure it was after 79 minutes when "he decided" to kick at goal. To be fair, he only waits about 20 secs or so, and had he been taking the mickey too much I'm sure Poite would have given him the hurry-up...

Pete330v2 wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Loved Scotland's line out move for the Dunbar try. Real daylight robbery stuff. Always appreciate well thought out innovative moves. Completely fooled the Ireland pack and that doesnt happen too often.

Two backs in the lineout should have sounded all kinds of alarm bells but not one Irish player took any notice. The fact that Dunbar and Seymour were at standing together at the front end of the lineout should have been covered even if it had eventually been a ruse. It displays just how off the game Ireland were in the first half. I don't think it was complacency but more the feverish pace Scotland started with that Ireland weren't prepared for. Our narrow defence has been our doom on more than one occasion, something you'd think would be sorted by now.

When teams put backs in the lineout close to the line it is usually because they want to add extra players to push the resulting maul over the line once the usual lineout jumper has secured the throw. Wales did a 15 man lineout against NZ a few years back for example. This is how the Irish pack interpreted it I'm sure.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Well we differ in the interpretation.  
Like I said earlier, Ireland have this idea that they can pace themselves to the 'bigger' games when playing through series. They tried it in the last world cup and were so sluggish against Italy that it damn near stopped them getting out of the pool once again.  And they are repeat offender at the 6N.  
The others more consistently punch hard/or try to through all their games.  We have our usual two or so walking paced games of 'it'll do'.  The bonus points system is a rude awakening to that habit.  Thanks Scotland for the rude awakening.  It might yet prove beneficial in the medium to long term.

Not sure there is any evidence that Ireland consciously pace themselves against anyone. It was an away game against Scotland in Murrayfield on the first day of the championship. I very much doubt you are right.

According to SOB in his post match interview he felt they showed Scotland too much respect.

In my books, there is plenty of evidence over the years.  Why do so many people seem to think that "Not sure there is any evidence" means there is none?  
There'll of course be interpretation of evidence so I guess no matter what evidence, it'll still go through the interpretation machine.  I see it my way - have done for years - you see it alternatively.

SOB said they showed Scotland too much respect?  How so?  Does he mean Ireland played harder than they needed to play?  (That would be a dumb assumption on his part).  Or did he mean they stood off Scotland too much and didn't join the real battle as soon as possible, as, for example, they knew they needed to do against New Zealand? That would prove my initial point and to me would actually suggest lack of respect for Scotland.

You have a great imagination anyway fly.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:You have a great imagination anyway fly.

No. I make comments about Ireland and how they play and choose to play and organise themselves through a 6N. I believe we've left more than one championship back there in the history books that might have been but wasn't due to sluggish disinterest in certain games.

So back to SOB, what did he mean? Too much respect?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Loved Scotland's line out move for the Dunbar try. Real daylight robbery stuff. Always appreciate well thought out innovative moves. Completely fooled the Ireland pack and that doesnt happen too often.

Two backs in the lineout should have sounded all kinds of alarm bells but not one Irish player took any notice. The fact that Dunbar and Seymour were at standing together at the front end of the lineout should have been covered even if it had eventually been a ruse. It displays just how off the game Ireland were in the first half. I don't think it was complacency but more the feverish pace Scotland started with that Ireland weren't prepared for. Our narrow defence has been our doom on more than one occasion, something you'd think would be sorted by now.

When teams put backs in the lineout close to the line it is usually because they want to add extra players to push the resulting maul over the line once the usual lineout jumper has secured the throw. Wales did a 15 man lineout against NZ a few years back for example. This is how the Irish pack interpreted it I'm sure.

Yes it is and they still need picked up, Both Scottish backs were completely ignored for that move. I remember the Welsh blitz lineout which was comically packed with players. This was subtly done, a centre and a winger a the front of the lineout unmarked. Who wouldn't throw the ball to one of them for the couple of steps to the line. It was stupidity in the extreme or sheer naeivity from the Irish pack.

Maybe so but it was still a good move from Scotland.

SecretFly wrote:So back to SOB, what did he mean?  Too much respect?

Tweet him and ask him?

Or if you like the Ireland team is having a fan Q&A on Wednesday evening. Go to irishrugby.ie to sign up for a chance to attend. I might be going so if you like Ill ask him there.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So back to SOB, what did he mean?  Too much respect?

Tweet him and ask him?

Or if you like the Ireland team is having a fan Q&A on Wednesday evening. Go to irishrugby.ie to sign up for a chance to attend. I might be going so if you like Ill ask him there.

I don't do Tweet - I only watch them play, don't want to share their lives .
It's usually the considered 'underdog' side that uses the term when they suggest they didn't go hard enough at the big boys. That's usually what 'respecting too much' means.

I don't have a clue what SOB means.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So back to SOB, what did he mean?  Too much respect?

Tweet him and ask him?

Or if you like the Ireland team is having a fan Q&A on Wednesday evening. Go to irishrugby.ie to sign up for a chance to attend. I might be going so if you like Ill ask him there.

Only caught your last sentence now. Yeah. If you can ask him, ask him. Much appreciated Guns.

Scottrf wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Laidlaw knew fine well what he was doing! He was taking his time for the kick to wait until the clock went dead!

There is no rule on how long a kicker can take to make the kick, the ref can tell them to "hurry up" if they are taking the mick but that's it. Usually around the minute mark is given for a penalty.

Personally I think there should be a time limit on how long they can take.  Look at Biggar for Wales or Foley for Oz, sometimes they take an absolute age before taking a kick!

There is a time limit. A minute from the signal of the intention to kick for goal.

Quote the rule number!

There isn't one!

Well done Scotland, Cotter pulled a master stoke in the first half against his much vaunted protege Schmidt.

Ireland need to keep their powder dry and not lose the run of themselves with the criticism... but for two try saving interventions by Maitland we could well be talking about an historic bonus point victory one of the great comebacks of all time.

We'll just have to win it on points now.

I think fly you are underestimating how good Scotland were as opposed to Ireland underestimating them and therefore playing below par. Personally I think it is more of a case of Scotland in the first half getting their tactics right in both attack and defence and raising their game significantly rather than a case of Ireland just being poor.

tigertattie wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Laidlaw knew fine well what he was doing! He was taking his time for the kick to wait until the clock went dead!

There is no rule on how long a kicker can take to make the kick, the ref can tell them to "hurry up" if they are taking the mick but that's it. Usually around the minute mark is given for a penalty.

Personally I think there should be a time limit on how long they can take.  Look at Biggar for Wales or Foley for Oz, sometimes they take an absolute age before taking a kick!

There is a time limit. A minute from the signal of the intention to kick for goal.

Quote the rule number!

There isn't one!

According to the official rules,

"If a kicker indicates to the referee the intention to kick a penalty kick at goal, the kick must be taken within one minute from the time the player indicates the intention to kick at goal. The intention to kick is signalled by the arrival of the kicking tee or sand, or when the player makes a mark on the ground.

"The player must complete the kick within one minute even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again. If the one minute is exceeded, the kick is disallowed, a scrum is ordered at the place of the mark and the opponents throw in the ball. For any other type of kick, the kick must be taken without undue delay."

21.4 c

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Loved Scotland's line out move for the Dunbar try. Real daylight robbery stuff. Always appreciate well thought out innovative moves. Completely fooled the Ireland pack and that doesnt happen too often.

Two backs in the lineout should have sounded all kinds of alarm bells but not one Irish player took any notice. The fact that Dunbar and Seymour were at standing together at the front end of the lineout should have been covered even if it had eventually been a ruse. It displays just how off the game Ireland were in the first half. I don't think it was complacency but more the feverish pace Scotland started with that Ireland weren't prepared for. Our narrow defence has been our doom on more than one occasion, something you'd think would be sorted by now.

When teams put backs in the lineout close to the line it is usually because they want to add extra players to push the resulting maul over the line once the usual lineout jumper has secured the throw. Wales did a 15 man lineout against NZ a few years back for example. This is how the Irish pack interpreted it I'm sure.

To be fair to the Irish pack, if I was in their shoes I'd would have thought that the backs were going to add to the push of a maul and that the ball was going to be going to the back of the lineout! Imagine if the Irish did mark up Dunbar and Seymour and the ball went to the back of the lineout and a try was scored from a maul, everyone would be slating them for buying the dummy and not stacking the back of the lineout with defensive players!

Exactly tattie. It was clever from Scotland. Thats how I see it.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

tigertattie wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Laidlaw knew fine well what he was doing! He was taking his time for the kick to wait until the clock went dead!

There is no rule on how long a kicker can take to make the kick, the ref can tell them to "hurry up" if they are taking the mick but that's it. Usually around the minute mark is given for a penalty.

Personally I think there should be a time limit on how long they can take.  Look at Biggar for Wales or Foley for Oz, sometimes they take an absolute age before taking a kick!

There is a time limit. A minute from the signal of the intention to kick for goal.

Quote the rule number!

There isn't one!

According to the official rules,

"If a kicker indicates to the referee the intention to kick a penalty kick at goal, the kick must be taken within one minute from the time the player indicates the intention to kick at goal. The intention to kick is signalled by the arrival of the kicking tee or sand, or when the player makes a mark on the ground.

"The player must complete the kick within one minute even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again. If the one minute is exceeded, the kick is disallowed, a scrum is ordered at the place of the mark and the opponents throw in the ball. For any other type of kick, the kick must be taken without undue delay."

So why did Poite say there isn't a rule? Bit worrying if the refs don't know these things!

It's a moot point anyway as RDW has already shown that the indication to kick a penalty was 79.05

I'm off to re-read my law book

There are so many rules on occasion refs do get it wrong. Not surprising really.

I'd like to think that refs should be given license to have a feel for the game and a feel for the situation - by the time the penalty was called and everyone finally extracted themselves from the ruck it was near as dammit 79 minutes. Jamie Heaslip walked away with his back turned - accepting defeat.

I don't think Poite was overly concerned with exactly how long Laidlaw had and when exactly Laidlaw told him he would kick at goal.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I'd like to think that refs should be given license to have a feel for the game and a feel for the situation - by the time the penalty was called and everyone finally extracted themselves from the ruck it was near as dammit 79 minutes. Jamie Heaslip walked away with his back turned - accepting defeat.

I don't think Poite was overly concerned with exactly how long Laidlaw had and when exactly Laidlaw told him he would kick at goal.

The game was over.

The only danger was if he hit the upright and the ball came on.......

That would be such a Scottish thing to do

Riskysports wrote:The only danger was if he hit the upright and the ball came on.......

That would be such a Scottish thing to do

Aye, they could've got the 4th try

munkian wrote:

Riskysports wrote:The only danger was if he hit the upright and the ball came on.......

That would be such a Scottish thing to do

Aye, they could've got the 4th try

Far too soon in the Scottish core to see that sort of positive outcome occurring....

rodders wrote:Well done Scotland, Cotter pulled a master stoke in the first half against his much vaunted protege Schmidt.

Ireland need to keep their powder dry and not lose the run of themselves with the criticism... but for two try saving interventions by Maitland we could well be talking about an historic bonus point victory one of the great comebacks of all time.

We'll just have to win it on points now.

Careful there rodders, I said exactly the same at half time and got slated by a certain few on here

Laidlaw did have a cracking game - and he got the ball moving when it was there to go as well as a very astute tactical last ten minutes.  Loved the lineout.  Wee Grieg at the front of the linout  pretending he is going to jump had me in stitches.

Image1 by TandemJeremy, on Flickr

Scotland worked for the breaks and the tries. Second try Maitland knew it was coming and was running hard round to get into a supporting position which he did. Its not just off the cuff stuff. that first 30 mins was some very good rugby indeed from Scotland. didn't kill them off to and Ireland are too good a side not to come back at you. At halftime I said Scotland would have to score again to win and they did - just!

Murray Kinsella's in depth review of irish tactics on youtube, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f5mTRIvuI0

Nearly 1,000 posts and 14,000 views on one match.

Well done everyone.

George Carlin wrote:Nearly 1,000 posts and 14,000 views on one match.

Well done everyone.

Given that the Scottish and Irish aren't exactly renowned for being mutes are you surprised??

RDW_Scotland wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Nearly 1,000 posts and 14,000 views on one match.

Well done everyone.

Given that the Scottish and Irish aren't exactly renowned for being mutes are you surprised??

Nope. I'm just always pleased when it happens.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Nearly 1,000 posts and 14,000 views on one match.

Well done everyone.

Given that the Scottish and Irish aren't exactly renowned for being mutes are you surprised??

Admins coming on here and accusing us of talking mince...............................

I include myself in that!

To be fair, at least 10 pages of this thread were devoted to Connor Murray. And after all that I don't think he even got as much as a tickle at the back of a ruck!

RDW_Scotland wrote:I include myself in that!

To be fair, at least 10 pages of this thread were devoted to Connor Murray. And after all that I don't think he even got as much as a tickle at the back of a ruck!

I was actually really disappointed with that. I really hoped someone would have given him a proper (and legal) rib tickler! This being said, it shows that the players were sent out there to do a job - to win a game - and ignore the mutterings of a torn faced disaster. I'll take a win over a personal score to settle any day of the week!

tigertattie wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I include myself in that!

To be fair, at least 10 pages of this thread were devoted to Connor Murray. And after all that I don't think he even got as much as a tickle at the back of a ruck!

I was actually really disappointed with that. I really hoped someone would have given him a proper (and legal) rib tickler! This being said, it shows that the players were sent out there to do a job - to win a game - and ignore the mutterings of a torn faced disaster. I'll take a win over a personal score to settle any day of the week!

If Scotland had focused their efforts on Murray they would have lost. Dragging Ireland into a slug fest wouldn't have gone well for Scotland IMO. Instead they put all their effort in out witting Ireland and being tactically superior in both attack and defence and as a result completely ambushed us. If I was a Scotland fan that would be so much more satisfying than getting a few cheap shots in.

I was never worried about Murray at all. it was a load of hot air.

I bet the Scottish team were loving the media trial by Murray as I think it might have been a little distraction for them (just my opinion)

I bet the Scottish training room was going

VC " they are going to except us to target Murray - let them continue to think that, I have other plans"

Team - "so what are we going to do instead"

VC - "Run the ragged and put Laidlaw at the front of a line out?"

Team - "Laidlaw, he is only 3 ft 2 - what good is he going to do there?"

VC - "just you watch - it will be magic, Dunbar....a word"