6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February

First topic message reminder :

      
SCOTLAND v IRELAND 
4 February 2017
KO: 14:25
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Touch judges: Jaco Peyper (South Africa) and Nick Briant (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand

Live on BBC, RTE, DMAX, FR2, ITV (H)

A. Head to Head

132 Played 132
66 Won 61 
5 Drawn 5
61 Lost 66
1,380 Points 1,475

B. Recent Form

19 March 2016
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
35 – 25 to Ireland

15 August 2015
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
28 – 22 to Ireland

21 March 2015
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
10 – 40 to Ireland

2 February 2014
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
28 – 6 to Ireland

24 February 2013
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
12 – 8 to Scotland

10 March 2012
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
32 – 14 to Ireland

6 August 2011
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
10 – 6 to Scotland

27 February 2011
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
18 – 21 to Ireland

20 March 2010
Croke Park, Dublin
20 – 23 to Scotland

C. Teams

SCOTLAND 

15-Stuart Hogg; 14-Sean Maitland, 13-Huw Jones, 12-Alex Dunbar, 11-Tommy Seymour; 10-Finn Russell, 9-Greig Laidlaw (capt); 1-Allan Dell, 2-Fraser Brown, 3-Zander Fagerson, 4-Richie Gray, 5-Jonny Gray, 6-Ryan Wilson, 7-Hamish Watson, 8-Josh Strauss

Replacements: 16-Ross Ford, 17-Gordon Reid, 18-Simon Berghan, 19-Tim Swinson, 20-John Barclay, 21-Ali Price, 22-Duncan Weir, 23-Mark Bennett

IRELAND

15-Rob Kearney; 14-Keith Earls, 13-Robbie Henshaw, 12-Garry Ringrose, 11-Simon Zebo; 10-Paddy Jackson, 9-Conor Murray; 1-Jack McGrath, 2-Rory Best (captain), 3-Tadhg Furlong, 4-Iain Henderson, 5-Devin Toner, 6-CJ Stander, 7-Sean O'Brien, 8-Jamie Heaslip

Replacements: 16-Niall Scannell, 17-Cian Healy, 18-John Ryan, 19-Ultan Dillane, 20-Josh van der Flier, 21-Kieran Marmion, 22-Ian Keatley, 23-Tommy Bowe.

This would be my team for the Italy match.

01 - Jack McGrath
02 - Rory Best (captain)
03 - Tadhg Furlong
04 - Iain Henderson
05 - Devin Toner
06 - Peter O'Mahoney
07 - Josh v/d Flier
08 - CJ Stander
09 - Conor Murray
10 - Jonathon Sexton
11 - Simon Zebo
12 - Robbie Henshaw
13 - Garry Ringrose
14 - Craig Gilroy
15 - Rob Kearney


Replacements:
16 - Niall Scannell
17 - Cian Healy
18 - John Ryan
19 - Ultan Dillane
20 - Jamie Heaslip
21 - Kieran Marmion
22 - Paddy Jackson
23 - Keith Earls.

Will Peter O'Mahony be fit? I would stick Donnacha Ryan in the row. If POM isn't fit I would consider moving Henderson to 6 to help the line-out problems. Our back row is just too small currently.

All signs point to POM being fit for Italy but if not then, yes I agree, Hendo to 6.

Also, I still don't think Henshaw at 12 is working for Leinster or Ireland. I really don't. They look immense together against weaker defences, but they are totally one dimensional otherwise. Stick another playmaker in there please and move Henshaw to 13 where he can compete with Ringrose. There is a reason Connacht never played him at 12.

The best centre partnership I have seen click yet over the past few years was Marshall-Henshaw. Whatever we think of other more talented individuals, those two thrived against South Africa. They were only given one shot. Olding and Henshaw were very good too. I think Scannell is similar to Marshall so I would be happy to see him get a chance at 12 at some stage this season.

I have always believed Henshaw to be a better 13 than 12 but I do like the Henshaw/Ringrose partnership. A Scannell/Henshaw 12/13 would be immense but I doubt it will happen.

Marshall/McCloskey with Henshaw is also very good.

At the end of the day, not being on the front foot or receiving quick service makes the whole thing more difficult, but at least another option at first receiver who can play with the head up would add more dimension to our attack.

The question is, how do we get on the front foot? Keep throwing the ball to Stander? That seems to be the Irish way. Give the ball to the best known ball carrier. Not predictable in the slightest...

But I will say, as I did yesterday...I've never seen a player carry as consecutively and effectively as Stander. He just gets up and does it again and again.

I think with a back row axis of 6 - POM, 7 - v/d Flier and 8 - CJ, Ireland will be more on the front foot.

I have always rated Heaslip and was not against him starting at 8 but a fit POM has to play at 6 and CJ simply cant be left out. Heaslip was very poor yesterday so that makes the decision a little easier in my mind.

If not worry about Italy boys. Wales played as badly as I've ever seen them play and they managed to hump them in the end. Italy are a case of keeping on going at them and after 50 or 60 mins, as long as you keep going, they break. The games they do win it's because the other team almost give up trying to beat them!

tigertattie wrote:If not worry about Italy boys. Wales played as badly as I've ever seen them play and they managed to hump them in the end. Italy are a case of keeping on going at them and after 50 or 60 mins, as long as you keep going, they break. The games they do win it's because the other team almost give up trying to beat them!

You got that perfect tiger... about Italy that is. If you let them have a sniff by easing off, they'll take that sniff.

Wales will improve though.

Someone want to make a France-Scotland thread?

All of Russell's strengths and weaknesses were on display - great attacking play, people have criticised that pass to Hogg but it was a long one and counts as a try assist, played well in the 1st half, made some good gains in terms of territory.

Unfortunately Russell's defence isn't particularly good, also in the 2nd half his composure wasn't great, making errors, one in particular which Maitland had to clear up to stop a try. Perhaps he wasn't completely right after having to go off for a potential concussion.


Though saying that I think Russell in the first half got the best out of Hogg and Hogg should thank Russell for that.

Hogg got the glory as usual but I thought from a defensive effort perspective J.Gray and Maitland in particular were very good.

Maitland wasn't that involved in the attack but defensively stopped potentially 2 tries and J.Gray made the most tackles.

Well that was heart thumping stuff!

Ireland did not show much for me in attack and relied on their forward power. They almost broke the Scots who actually had some subs come in to make telling contributions (Barclay in particular). Connacht and Ulster are the most free flowing Irish teams and contributed 1 starting back whilst Munster and Leinster contributed 3 each. They could do with O'Halloran and Gilroy coming in to add speed/creativity in the back 3 ahead of Kearney and Earls.

Scotland were excellent defensively throughout but need work on holding possession a bit more. In the first half this was no problem because they were scoring so quickly, but in the second the territory shifted to Ireland. We were fortunate to escape and it showed some grit that was lacking. There is more impact off the bench than there used to be (Barclay is the standout). My one issue with the bench at the moment is tighthead. If you don't trust Berghan to give you 20 minutes, what's wrong with Welsh? Perfectly adequate international tighthead with experience.

beshocked wrote:All of Russell's strengths and weaknesses were on display - great attacking play, people have criticised that pass to Hogg but it was a long one and counts as a try assist, played well in the 1st half, made some good gains in terms of territory.

Unfortunately Russell's defence isn't particularly good, also in the 2nd half his composure wasn't great, making errors, one in particular which Maitland had to clear up to stop a try. Perhaps he wasn't completely right after having to go off for a potential concussion.


Though saying that I think Russell in the first half got the best out of Hogg and Hogg should thank Russell for that.

Hogg got the glory as usual but I thought from a defensive effort perspective J.Gray and Maitland in particular were very good.

Maitland wasn't that involved in the attack but defensively stopped potentially 2 tries and J.Gray made the most tackles.

It was some game!

Jonny Gray got 25 tackles I think! WTF!!!!
Watson was everywhere in the first half! I think it was tactical for him to use all his gas in the first half then Barclay to come on and put in the defensive effort!
Maitland stopped two tries, just as important as Hogg's two scores! I'm also pretty sure that Maitland set up Hoggs try up the left wing!

it was a whole squad performance and I'm still delighted! I'm not worried that Berghan didn't come on as ZooZander was having a stormer of a game (scrums aside) Even though he was breathing out his backside near the end, he was still putting in the tackles! The only waste of a spot was Price. It's a difficult one as he's needed there if Laidlaw gets injured but Laidlaw isn't going to be tactically subbed is he!

Wilson seemed to have another good game, Strauss seemed a bit quiet!

Dell was a bit quiet

Dunbar was superb

Jones was quite subdued (Lack of gametime I reckon)

Seymour had a decent game and almost had a length of the pitch interception - Speaking of which, does anyone else think that Zebo's pass for the first Irish try was considerably forward? For me the try shouldn't have stood but if it hadn't been given, Scotland were one penalty away from a yellow card and three points and the try went unconverted!

A little late to the party but that was a tremendous match. Ireland every bit as good in the second half as Scotland were in the first.

How the second half went was how I thought the whole game would have went. Ireland starving us of possession and bludgeoning us into submission.

We were just really fortunate our backs ran riot based on the tremendous breakdown work of our forwards.

IMO Ireland missed POM badly. He'd have made a difference I think, especially buying time for your defence to reset.

Someone hasn't quite come down from the high of Saturday yet

tigertattie wrote:
Jonny Gray got 25 tackles I think! WTF!!!!

I think the official stat was 28 in the end!! Man's a machine.

tigertattie wrote:
Maitland stopped two tries, just as important as Hogg's two scores! I'm also pretty sure that Maitland set up Hoggs try up the left wing!

I thought it was Jones (from Russell's pass initially, missing out Dunbar)

tigertattie wrote:
The only waste of a spot was Price. It's a difficult one as he's needed there if Laidlaw gets injured but Laidlaw isn't going to be tactically subbed is he!

Would personally like to see Price come on in the last 20 against Italy at least. Yesterday they tired quite badly then, and Price against a flagging defence is an intriguing prospect. Might also be worth thinking about it vs France since they also tired at the end, though I don't expect Vern to be that bold/stupid.
Wilson seemed to have another good game, Strauss seemed a bit quiet!

Pedant out..

Hazel Sapling wrote:Well that was heart thumping stuff!

Ireland did not show much for me in attack and relied on their forward power. They almost broke the Scots who actually had some subs come in to make telling contributions (Barclay in particular). Connacht and Ulster are the most free flowing Irish teams and contributed 1 starting back whilst Munster and Leinster contributed 3 each. They could do with O'Halloran and Gilroy coming in to add speed/creativity in the back 3 ahead of Kearney and Earls.

Scotland were excellent defensively throughout but need work on holding possession a bit more. In the first half this was no problem because they were scoring so quickly, but in the second the territory shifted to Ireland. We were fortunate to escape and it showed some grit that was lacking. There is more impact off the bench than there used to be (Barclay is the standout). My one issue with the bench at the moment is tighthead. If you don't trust Berghan to give you 20 minutes, what's wrong with Welsh? Perfectly adequate international tighthead with experience.  

Have you watched Ulster this season? Ulsters backs have been pretty poor in attack and have look like headless chickens at times. They and Connacht have 53 tries between them in the Pro12 this season, Leinster have 49.

Yeah I think it was Huw Jones that straightened the line and drew the man before feeding Hogg - a small yet vital contribution.

How often have we seen Scottish backlines not do that in the past - in days gone by we would have just shuffled it along the line without drawing the man and Hogg would have been bundled into touch.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Yeah I think it was Huw Jones that straightened the line and drew the man before feeding Hogg - a small yet vital contribution.

I thought Jones showed some really good touches and the potential was obvious. However he was really hindered by the lack of match sharpness, which affected him in attack but most obviousley in defence. Now while I think an injury in the AIs will have contributed (?), the fact he plays in SA will cause this to continue to be an issue as there will never be any games between the AIs and 6Ns.

He's moving to Glasgow next season LT, just been announced.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:He's moving to Glasgow next season LT, just been announced.

Aha, missed that. Guess that is why there are the Bennett to Falcons rumours.

LondonTiger wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:He's moving to Glasgow next season LT, just been announced.

Aha, missed that. Guess that is why there are the Bennett to Falcons rumours.

Well it was literally announced this morning. The rumours of Bennett leaving (there's recently been speculation that he may be going to Edinburgh also...) have been around for a while, might be more to do with Bennett no longer being obvious first choice at Glasgow. There's good information to be had on the "Banter" thread, just need a good dictionary on hand to understand what they're on about!!

Great news and what a great time to announce the move after the highs of the weekend. I'm very postive about Scottish rugby at the moment. Long may it continue

nickj wrote:Great news and what a great time to announce the move after the highs of the weekend. I'm very postive about Scottish rugby at the moment. Long may it continue

We've still got 4 games to go remember....there's still time!

Ha. Yes, must not get ahead of myself, but I can't help it. Vern Cotter has won 17 and lost 15 games. The reason for that improvement is down to two things; better players and better coaches. In days past, we would be competitive in some of our matches, but more often than not, we got smashed. That just doesn’t happen any more. Scotland are competitive in every game. Look at Vern’s record closely and you can see that most of those 15 losses where within bonus point territory. The only two embarrassments were against South Africa (55-6 with a weakened Scotland squad) and Ireland (40-10 when they needed a big score to lift the championship). Both games came in Vern’s first year, it hasn’t happened since. Bring it on I say... especially the Calcutta Cup

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:A little late to the party but that was a tremendous match. Ireland every bit as good in the second half as Scotland were in the first.

How the second half went was how I thought the whole game would have went. Ireland starving us of possession and bludgeoning us into submission.

We were just really fortunate our backs ran riot based on the tremendous breakdown work of our forwards.

IMO Ireland missed POM badly. He'd have made a difference I think, especially buying time for your defence to reset.

Indeed. I salute the idea that backs - when playing right - embellish what their forwards are working hard at/for.

Never mind the salad drought in England, the poor wee uns are out of dummies after Scotland sold them all to the Irish

Just looked at the stats:

Ireland 58% possession and 62% territory
Ireland 534m ball in hand (Sc 311)
Ireland 12 clean breaks (Sc 6)
32 Missed tackles by Scotland (Ire 9)

LondonTiger wrote:Just looked at the stats:

Ireland 58% possession and 62% territory
Ireland 534m ball in hand (Sc 311)
Ireland 12 clean breaks (Sc 6)
32 Missed tackles by Scotland (Ire 9)

I'm with you Tiger.  Sure don't those stats prove we won!  I don't want a rematch just that the 6N board notch us down for a big win - as compensation for the weekend embarrassment of thinking we didn't win, I'd add another try to our sccoresheet.

Well, the game kinda went how I thought - Ireland forward dominance, a superior scrum....with the obvious difference being that we actually, somehow managed to win!

There were too many good moments to list, but the very fact that we have won our opening game will give the guys a huge amount of confidence and completely change the dynamic of the tournament for us. Watching the post match interview with BVC, I have never actually seen him smile as much as he did then....the celebrations in the coaches box shows you all you need to know about how much it means to him.

The atmosphere at Murrayfield was amazing at the end, years of frustration willing on the lads at the end....just brilliant.

LondonTiger wrote:Just looked at the stats:

Ireland 58% possession and 62% territory
Ireland 534m ball in hand (Sc 311)
Ireland 12 clean breaks (Sc 6)
32 Missed tackles by Scotland (Ire 9)

It all goes to show the stats mean frick all if you don't take your points. Ireland on any other day would have turned up for the first half hour and Scotland on any other day would have faded in the final 20 minutes. On the actual day it was not to be although when Ireland went ahead I was sure we were in for a win. Scotland didn't play ball though

I thought Strauss played well. He put in a good defensive shift and often knocked his man back in the tackle.

cakeordeath wrote:I thought Strauss played well. He put in a good defensive shift and often knocked his man back in the tackle.

How are their supporting legs doing ?

Did Poite mess up by allowing Laidlaw over a minute to take Scotland's last penalty? Did this deny Ireland one last chance of a restart and possibly one last attack? Does it matter?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Did Poite mess up by allowing Laidlaw over a minute to take Scotland's last penalty? Did this deny Ireland one last chance of a restart and possibly one last attack? Does it matter?

Laidlaw told the ref that he was going to kick at goal after 79 minutes. He then had a minute to kick from that point.

The fact that they had a little discussion to ensure the clock ticked over 79 minutes before telling the ref their decision is purely gamesmanship!

Best actually highlighted it to the ref:

They've only got a minute to take it [the penalty]," said Best.

Poite dismissed this query and told the Ulster man, "No. There's no rule about that." in an exchange that was picked up very clearly on the live broadcast.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Best actually highlighted it to the ref:

They've only got a minute to take it [the penalty]," said Best.

Poite dismissed this query and told the Ulster man, "No. There's no rule about that." in an exchange that was picked up very clearly on the live broadcast.

Interesting. As far as I understand it the kicker has a minute from when he tells the ref he would like to kick at goal. In my mind the ref perhaps should have told Laidlaw to hurry up and make his decision but I'd hope that no one would really begrudge as taking our time, as any other team would have done.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Did Poite mess up by allowing Laidlaw over a minute to take Scotland's last penalty? Did this deny Ireland one last chance of a restart and possibly one last attack? Does it matter?

It doesn't matter. We were beaten in the first half, not the second.

The game should be replayed (as many times as necessary until Irish eyes are smiling).

Cyril wrote:The game should be replayed (as many times as necessary until Irish eyes are smiling).

I concur.

These English lads have the right attitude. That's two of them now that think Ireland won on technical grounds.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Best actually highlighted it to the ref:

They've only got a minute to take it [the penalty]," said Best.

Poite dismissed this query and told the Ulster man, "No. There's no rule about that." in an exchange that was picked up very clearly on the live broadcast.

Interesting.  As far as I understand it the kicker has a minute from when he tells the ref he would like to kick at goal.  In my mind the ref perhaps should have told Laidlaw to hurry up and make his decision but I'd hope that no one would really begrudge as taking our time, as any other team would have done.

No they have a minute from when the tee comes on, Laidlaw took 90 seconds to take the kick once it hit 60 seconds it should have been a scrum to Ireland

Cyril wrote:The game should be replayed (as many times as necessary until Irish eyes are smiling).

Yessssssssssssssssss thanks Cyril.

SecretFly wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Did Poite mess up by allowing Laidlaw over a minute to take Scotland's last penalty? Did this deny Ireland one last chance of a restart and possibly one last attack? Does it matter?

It doesn't matter.  We were beaten in the first half, not the second.  

We were ahead with 20 mins to go, that should have been closed out but wasnt

The ref got it wrong but Scotland deserved their victory. They outsmarted Ireland and that's enough for me.

marty2086 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Best actually highlighted it to the ref:

They've only got a minute to take it [the penalty]," said Best.

Poite dismissed this query and told the Ulster man, "No. There's no rule about that." in an exchange that was picked up very clearly on the live broadcast.

Interesting.  As far as I understand it the kicker has a minute from when he tells the ref he would like to kick at goal.  In my mind the ref perhaps should have told Laidlaw to hurry up and make his decision but I'd hope that no one would really begrudge as taking our time, as any other team would have done.

No they have a minute from when the tee comes on, Laidlaw took 90 seconds to take the kick once it hit 60 seconds it should have been a scrum to Ireland

But when exactly does the tee come on?  (to be pedantic about it)

Is the stop watch guy pressing his button just as the tee crosses the white line into the playing area or when Laidlaw says thanks to  the tee carrying man?

marty2086 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Did Poite mess up by allowing Laidlaw over a minute to take Scotland's last penalty? Did this deny Ireland one last chance of a restart and possibly one last attack? Does it matter?

It doesn't matter.  We were beaten in the first half, not the second.  

We were ahead with 20 mins to go, that should have been closed out but wasnt

Exactly. We came out of our last visit to their 22 with zero points. We had out chance. Even a drop goal probably would have sealed the victory.

marty2086 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Did Poite mess up by allowing Laidlaw over a minute to take Scotland's last penalty? Did this deny Ireland one last chance of a restart and possibly one last attack? Does it matter?

It doesn't matter.  We were beaten in the first half, not the second.  

We were ahead with 20 mins to go, that should have been closed out but wasnt

We would have been more ahead had we not gone into the game smug and thinking less effort than the ones against New Zealand and Australia would still get us through. Slow game sawing is killing us. The first half killed us. Laidlaw and Scotland have my blessing for getting every millisecond out of their kicking option.

SecretFly wrote:Is the stop watch guy pressing his button just as the tee crosses the white line into the playing area or when Laidlaw says thanks to  the tee carrying man?

Crossing the paint. In fact that counts as your decision even if the captain hasn't said they will kick to goal.

Laidlaw knew fine well what he was doing! He was taking his time for the kick to wait until the clock went dead!

There is no rule on how long a kicker can take to make the kick, the ref can tell them to "hurry up" if they are taking the mick but that's it. Usually around the minute mark is given for a penalty.

Personally I think there should be a time limit on how long they can take. Look at Biggar for Wales or Foley for Oz, sometimes they take an absolute age before taking a kick!

tigertattie wrote:Laidlaw knew fine well what he was doing! He was taking his time for the kick to wait until the clock went dead!

There is no rule on how long a kicker can take to make the kick, the ref can tell them to "hurry up" if they are taking the mick but that's it. Usually around the minute mark is given for a penalty.

Personally I think there should be a time limit on how long they can take.  Look at Biggar for Wales or Foley for Oz, sometimes they take an absolute age before taking a kick!

There is a time limit. A minute from the signal of the intention to kick for goal.