6N 2017: Italy v Wales, 5 February

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ITALY v WALES
5 February 2017
15:00 CET (14:00 GMT)
Stadio Olimpico, Rome

Live on DMAX, ITV, RTE, FR2, S4C, BBC (H)

Referee: JP Doyle (England)
Touch judges: Johnny Lacey (Ireland) & Craig Maxwell-Keys (England)
TMO: Rowan Kitt (England)

A. Head to Head

24 Played 24
21 Won 2
1 Drawn 1
2 Lost 21
815 Points 400

B. Recent Form

19 March 2016
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
67 – 14 to Wales

5 September 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 19 to Wales

21 March 2015
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
20 – 61 to Wales

1 February 2014
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 15 to Wales

23 February 2013
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
9 – 26 to Wales

10 March 2012
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
24 – 3 to Wales

C. Teams

ITALY

15-Edoardo Padovani; 14-Giulio Bisegni, 13-Tommaso Benvenuti, 12-Luke McLean 11-Giovanbattista Venditti; 10-Carlo Canna, 9-Edoardo Gori; 1-Andrea Lovotti, 2-Ornel Gega, 3-Lorenzo Cittadini, 4-Marco Fuser, 5-George Biagi, 6-Abraham Steyn, 7-Maxime Mata M'Banda, 8-Sergio Parisse (captain)

Replacements: 16-Leonardo Ghiraldini, 17-Sami Panico, 18-Pietro Ceccarelli, 19-Joshua Furno, 20-Francesco Minto, 21-Giorgio Bronzini, 22-Tommaso Allan, 23-Michele Campagnaro

WALES

15-Leigh Halfpenny; 14-George North, 13-Jonathan Davies, 12-Scott Williams, 11-Liam Williams; 10-Dan Biggar, 9-Rhys Webb; 1-Nicky Smith, 2-Ken Owens, 3-Samson Lee, 4-Jake Ball, 5-Alun Wyn Jones (captain); 6-Sam Warburton, 7-Justin Tipuric, 8-Ross Moriarty

Replacements: 16-Scott Baldwin, 17-Rob Evans, 18-Tomas Francis, 19-Cory Hill, 20-James King, 21-Gareth Davies, 22-Sam Davies, 23-Jamie Roberts

What is the point of having these 7 new guys in camp if we don't bench at least one of them against the weakest side in the tournament?

You learn more about Test match rugby in the judo sessions and cryotherapy chambers than you do on the field, of course.

Miaow, "I also think the players have to take responsibility after a point" - agreed to a point. But you only have to look at England under Stuart L and then Eddie Jones or Ireland under Schmidt to see what a difference having tactically astute coaches makes. I mostly have the impression with Wales that the players are genuinely trying hard, but don't really know what they should be doing, and I think that is about team systems, moves and also getting things right tactically.

I disagree. I'd say that tactically there is almost no difference between England under Lancaster and England under Jones. Lancaster balked I think at the World Cup, and perhaps tried too much to be what he perceived as an ABs of the NH, wanting to play attractive rugby instead of whatever it took to win (slimming down his forwards and underpowering the scrum etc. for the RWC), but otherwise there's no much between them. The key difference is a mental one: the attitude and belief that Eddie Jones has brought. Part of that has been empowering players to just get on with the job, and not worry about ethics or whatever, something Lancaster was apparently big on. Genuinely, he hasn't reinvented the wheel.

Bringing it back round to Wales, yeah, I agree, the players don't know what they're doing at times. You can see players are genuinely livid with those outside them, but nothing changes. The outside backs often bemoan the ball not coming wide, Cuthbert messing it up, or when Gareth Davies makes a bad choice. But that's where it ends. It's just a shrug of the arms and nothing more. What you would hope would have happened after four years of not winning a title, and being generally inconsistent, is for those standards to be driven from the players. Biggar's a leader in that regard, though limited as a player. AWJ is the top dog, and maybe him being captain might drive that. Certainly Howley's going to be far less of an authoritarian than Gatland is, so there's room for it.

Tactically, they do seem to have some good strike moves at times: North's try against England last year was a lovely move. As was the outside break that led to the winning try in the RWC against England; the initial hidden pass behind to Lloyd Williams having found an overlap was good Rugby. Faeltau's try against the ABs, good engineering of an overlap. But too often, the players apply these strike moves terribly: they're so telegraphed, with dummy runners in front of the ball carrier, with passes over/underthrown or just far away for the receiver to have to break stride. It's part coaches, but part players too.

In my mind, the players and personalities in the team 10 years ago wouldn't have put up with such ambivalence or inconsistency. Whether good or bad, I don't sense there's any player power in the Welsh squad anymore, and that comes from Gatland's force of will, Warburton's quiet captaincy, complacency after success, being well paid at club level due to historic Welsh success, and perhaps hesitancy to rock the boat in a game that has changed a lot in the last decade. We don't want to go back to players getting coaches sacked, but I would hope that they're able to drive the standards a bit more, and that shows through adaptation on the field of play, which with Wales only happens when we're losing in the dying moments of the game and have to go all out attack.

Gatland's tactics are a bit stale, but that's for two reasons: one, I don't think they're naturally suited to Welsh rugby generally so the players coming through aren't having the same impact as rare giants like Roberts, North, Warburton etc. had when they were first capped, and two Gatland doesn't have the same motivational effect as he used to have, because the players have got used to him, and also because he wants the ABs job after the Lions. I think primarily we need someone to put belief back into Wales. In no way is that Howley, as useful as a coach in theory he may be. For this 6Ns, I hope AWJ can be that motivation, but it's a lot to ask of him, and unfair frankly, to carry the team.

this board is dead…..2 days before the game and 5 posts after the team is announced

Gwlad wrote:this board is dead…..2 days before the game and 5 posts after the team is announced

Whats more to say ? Same team we've had for a long time, uninspiring bench etc

Exactly.

It was obvious it was going to happen, but I still can't quite believe the ignorance of Howley.

I also can't believe he had the audacity to call the selection exciting yesterday.

Simon Thomas wrote:Rob Howley and Alun Wyn Jones have just been asked to describe the Wales team in one word. Howley: “Exciting.” AWJ: “Welsh.”

I'd definitely lean more towards AWJ's description.

In fairness, he does have a limited vocabulary.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:In fairness, he does have a limited vocabulary.

Doubt it, good old boy is a lawyer.

munkian wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:In fairness, he does have a limited vocabulary.

Doubt it, good old boy is a lawyer.

You know I meant Howley, you rascal

Howley is starting to disgust me. He is clearly only concerned about getting the job after Gats. Last week when the new additions were announced he was all about how they brought a freshness to training, now like any good politician he has forgotten what he said and abandoned that sound bite for the usual dreary selection. I can't believe he hasn't got Owen or Young or Cracknell on the bench v Italy.

It seems to be a selection based on the fear of losing, rather than any ambition for Welsh rugby

Just arrived in Rome for the weekend the weather is pretty much same as the uk. Bit miserable.

Let's hope things brighten up for Sunday a bit eh..!

maestegmafia wrote:Just arrived in Rome for the weekend the weather is pretty much same as the uk. Bit miserable.

Let's hope things brighten up for Sunday a bit eh..!

Have fun Maes - hope its a good match.

https://www.606v2.com/t65093-espn-6n-fantasy-league#3509023

Gwlad wrote:I can't believe he hasn't got Owen or Young or Cracknell on the bench v Italy.

Owen Williams really isn't that good. Biggar and Sam Davies are significantly better players.

We have two World Class openside flankers in the XV. It makes more sense to cover the blindside/8 with a back row replacement before another openside. That makes Young's non inclusion understandable.

Could argue that Cracknell gets a place over King on the bench, but I suppose King does cover second row at a push. I have no preference here, Cracknell looks alright whereas I've never really 'got' King. Ospreys fans are better placed to judge the two, but for versatility sake, again, I understand why King makes the bench.

miaow wrote:

Gwlad wrote:I can't believe he hasn't got Owen or Young or Cracknell on the bench v Italy.

Owen Williams really isn't that good. Biggar and Sam Davies are significantly better players.

We have two World Class openside flankers in the XV. It makes more sense to cover the blindside/8 with a back row replacement before another openside. That makes Young's non inclusion understandable.

Could argue that Cracknell gets a place over King on the bench, but I suppose King does cover second row at a push. I have no preference here, Cracknell looks alright whereas I've never really 'got' King. Ospreys fans are better placed to judge the two, but for versatility sake, again, I understand why King makes the bench.

Sure, Young on bench makes no sense. but neither does King if you have Hill on he bench. And Owen…well if he isn't that good what is he doing near the squad, point being if not picked against italy then when? Its the same as Japan in the Autumn, Howley too chicken shoite to bring new blood on.

Gwlad wrote:Howley is starting to disgust me. He is clearly only concerned about getting the job after Gats. Last week when the new additions were announced he was all about how they brought a freshness to training, now like any good politician he has forgotten what he said and abandoned that sound bite for the usual dreary selection.

Maybe that's all he wanted from them.

miaow wrote:

Gwlad wrote:I can't believe he hasn't got Owen or Young or Cracknell on the bench v Italy.

Owen Williams really isn't that good. Biggar and Sam Davies are significantly better players.

We have two World Class openside flankers in the XV. It makes more sense to cover the blindside/8 with a back row replacement before another openside. That makes Young's non inclusion understandable.

Could argue that Cracknell gets a place over King on the bench, but I suppose King does cover second row at a push. I have no preference here, Cracknell looks alright whereas I've never really 'got' King. Ospreys fans are better placed to judge the two, but for versatility sake, again, I understand why King makes the bench.

Unless your definition of world class is very different to mine, I think it's a bit of a stretch to say you have 2 world class opensides starting!

Alot of people are bringing up Tupiric being bullied at the breakdown, especially if/when Sam goes off.

He's fantastic in all other assets of play but I'm a little concerned myself especially as we are missing Geth.

Its true and i think that has what has held back Tipuric to date, he has never dominated the breakdown as Sam has and did in fact get bullied off the ball on various occasions, and consequently has never truly ousted Sam until now. Even then i dont think he has been ousted like for like as it were, these two couldn't be more different. Perhaps the old jackal, while still seen as the pinnacle of open side play, is not a big enough loss when compared with the other aspects of Tipuric's game such as his handling and ability to create in the wider channels. Sam is a fine exponent of the jackal and i expect he will play the full 80.

Feel sorry for Howley.

He should just shave the remaining hair off and be done with it.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

miaow wrote:

Gwlad wrote:I can't believe he hasn't got Owen or Young or Cracknell on the bench v Italy.

Owen Williams really isn't that good. Biggar and Sam Davies are significantly better players.

We have two World Class openside flankers in the XV. It makes more sense to cover the blindside/8 with a back row replacement before another openside. That makes Young's non inclusion understandable.

Could argue that Cracknell gets a place over King on the bench, but I suppose King does cover second row at a push. I have no preference here, Cracknell looks alright whereas I've never really 'got' King. Ospreys fans are better placed to judge the two, but for versatility sake, again, I understand why King makes the bench.

Unless your definition of world class is very different to mine, I think it's a bit of a stretch to say you have 2 world class opensides starting!

Really???? Fifth in the IRB World Ranking, beaten you lot almost as many times as you have beaten us and we put you out of your own World Cup I think we have plenty of world class players as many as England have thats a certainty.

They said it will be light rain at kick off tomorrow.

Off for a days walking around Rome

just saw Scots….we'll be lucky to beat them this year

carpet baboon wrote:What's happened to Ashley beck?

He's basically failed to make the international grade for the reasons I always thought he would.  He's totally clueless in defense and simply isn't capable of reacting.  The opposition have the ball and he stares at the ruck, he never looks whats going on in front of him.  When the opposition passes it out, he starts to panic as he hasn't helped his team organise the defence and often leaves his team prone to over laps.  Sat in the Ospreys stands over the years I often saw him getting a ow off Dan biggar because he was half asleep in defense.  

Beck is a big, strong, fast boy, who can run in a straight line.  Jamie Roberts can do that AND tackle and organise the defense.  Throw in a few unlucky injuries and you have your reasons why he's gone off the radar.

maestegmafia wrote:Just arrived in Rome for the weekend the weather is pretty much same as the uk. Bit miserable.

Let's hope things brighten up for Sunday a bit eh..!

Have fun mate, hope you enjoy yourself. Personally I am not looking to this tournament, I just haven't the same enthusiasm as in past years. Hell I even posted something nice about Scotland which says everything...

Forza Italia.....

rumpelstiltskindoh wrote:It seems to be a selection based on the fear of losing, rather than any ambition for Welsh rugby

This is a really sad state of affairs for Wales, was hoping for a more dynamic selection. I like Howley but he really is not a forward thinking coach.

I'm fine with the selection.

With faletau injured, moriarty has to play 8 therefore the logical choice would be warburton at 6 as he has played int rugby there. People clamour for Young to be played but Dai Young (his coach and father) has said his son is a seven and not a six. Unfortunately for Young, there is another 7 in greater form in Tipuric.

People wanted Owen Williams at 12 but even Leicester fans are surprised he got a call up to the international team and he was in a team that got thumped by Glasgow so isn't in great form whereas Scott Williams is in superb form and deserves this 12 shirt to replicate his scarlets form.

Nicky smith, ken Owens, Samson lee, jake ball and AWJ have been the form Welsh front five in regional rugby this year.

Webb is our best 9 to which there is no debate. He may be undercooked slightly but has played fine in the two Ospreys games he played prior to this game.

Biggar beats Sam Davies and this is the controversial choice but if Wales can get a ten point lead with 30 to go then bring on Davies against the Italian players whose legs are getting heavy.

North isn't in form and I wouldn't have been unhappy to see steff Evans on wing but halfpenny and Williams make up the back three as there isn't any other choice bar a young dragons winger whose time will come

I agree True Raven. Was going to post something similar. While I've been calling for us to try new guys out, overall I'm happy with the starting 15. Steff Evans is perhaps someone I might have tried out given the poor form of North. The dragons wing Hewitt is injured unfortunately. Agree that another area could have been openside, but like you say Tipuric is in the form of his life too. I might have gone for Davies at scrum half rather than rushing Webb back in straight away, and bring Webb on 2nd half.

Where the squad is disappointing for me is the bench. That's where we could have put a couple of the new guys such as Steff Evans and Cracknell and perhaps give them some second half game time. We probably won't learn anything new with this squad. Apart from perhaps whether Sam Davies is a decent fullback if/when North goes off for a head injury!

Yes Griff, the bench leaves a lot to be desired and I feel for young but I imagine howlers thinking moriarty won't last 80 so have king on the bench.  

I think there are some positive signs in this camp.  A year ago I think it was luckless that bemoaned Jenkins and James being the loosehead props as they won't b there for the next World Cup, now we have two young talents in Evans and smith who will be batting for that 1 jersey.  Jake ball has been in form as has Scott Williams so they need to transfer that form to Wales and make them indispensable.

Sam Davies has the talent to be a star at fly half and is around the first 23 and we have some young back three talent waiting for an opportunity

Finally, we have the best leader in Europe leading our country out so there are some positives in this team for sure

Have to agree with practically everything from the last 2 posters, the advantage to me of having King on the bench is his lineout work whether lifting or being lifted, although only an inch taller than Cracknell his work is far superior, because a couple of years ago he was played in the 2nd row, because of Ianto's enthusiasm and away banned, his skill set improved dramatically. Olly's time will come. For this game IMO King is the right option.

I've always felt that there is a little of familiarity breeding contempt with this Wales side. Maybe I'm wrong.

They have been very successful in this tournament for a long time and the fact that it is the same old faces year in and year out doesn't do much more than verify that you need a good reason to change a winning formula. Forget SANZAR opposition, this Wales side knows how to win against every single 6N opponent. It is true that there are younger players who deserve a chance but if Howley makes changes for the sake of it and Italy sneak a narrow win, he'll be absolutely pilloried. It's a thankless task deputising for Gatland but at the same time, I just look at Howley and I imagine Gregor Townsend's face when someone asked him to work under Howley on the Lions tour.

George Carlin wrote:I've always felt that there is a little of familiarity breeding contempt with this Wales side. Maybe I'm wrong.

They have been very successful in this tournament for a long time and the fact that it is the same old faces year in and year out doesn't do much more than verify that you need a good reason to change a winning formula. Forget SANZAR opposition, this Wales side knows how to win against every single 6N opponent. It is true that there are younger players who deserve a chance but if Howley makes changes for the sake of it and Italy sneak a narrow win, he'll be absolutely pilloried. It's a thankless task deputising for Gatland but at the same time, I just look at Howley and I imagine Gregor Townsend's face when someone asked him to work under Howley on the Lions tour.

I've still seen no evidence of this being true! Just one tweet from a daily mail journalist. As far as I can tell Howley only came into the frame AFTER Townsend turned the job down. Howlers was the next in line, I think.

I honestly still would have had Liam Williams at 15 and 1/2p on the wing. Think Williams offers far more in attack from deep than 1/2p.

George Carlin wrote:I've always felt that there is a little of familiarity breeding contempt with this Wales side. Maybe I'm wrong.

They have been very successful in this tournament for a long time and the fact that it is the same old faces year in and year out doesn't do much more than verify that you need a good reason to change a winning formula. Forget SANZAR opposition, this Wales side knows how to win against every single 6N opponent. It is true that there are younger players who deserve a chance but if Howley makes changes for the sake of it and Italy sneak a narrow win, he'll be absolutely pilloried. It's a thankless task deputising for Gatland but at the same time, I just look at Howley and I imagine Gregor Townsend's face when someone asked him to work under Howley on the Lions tour.

I agree to an extent, but then Nicky smith, Justin Tipuric, Scott Williams, ken Owens, Liam Williams (to a lesser extent) were never Gatlandball players and were not central to the successful tenure under Gatland.

They are skilful players who like to play a fast expansive game rather than the Gatlandball that we use to see.

Change is coming wih the team and hopefully style of play but it's not as quick as money wanted and as you say didn't need to be to beat our 6N rivals

Why go wholesale changes when Scotland haven't beaten us in 10 years or France in 7 and we're winning at twickenham which never used to happen. Evolution and not revolution is the key to this Wales team, although I do wish it wasn't Howley in charge

Why this PC crap all the time, ITV why have we got a women in the studio, she has never played at this level, surely you could have found a better pundit than this?

TBF she's played England womens, probably a better standard than Italy vs Wales.

In fairness, she also knows more about rugby that John Inverdale...

eirebilly wrote:In fairness, she also knows more about rugby that John Inverdale...

So does the average Polish handyman.

North looks injured already...

Early days but a bit repetitive at the moment

Fair feics to the Italian defence here.

um isn't the point of rugby to win the game first?

Well Wales...

Very predictable in attack so far and out muscled in defence. 7-0

Wales guaranteed of woodenware this term at this rate

If Wales find some inspiration they should be OK. In the meantime

Seriously - good Italian try

'If you appeal again I am going to penalise you'....

 Webb hasn't got Warburton's turn of phrase

Umm, if you're going to just play Gatball then plea bring Doc on