6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:57 pm

6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February Englan11

WALES v ENGLAND
11 February 2017
KO:16:50 GMT
Principality Stadium, Cardiff

Live on [ITV, RTE, SC4, FR2, DMAX / BBC (H)]

Referee: Jerome Garces (France)
Touch judges: Pascal Gauzere (France) & Nick Briant (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

A. Head to Head

129 Played 129
57 Won 60
12 Drawn 12
60 Lost 57
1,673 Points 1,518

B. Recent Form

29 May 2016: Twickenham, London
27 – 13 to England
2016 mid-year rugby union internationals

12 March 2016: Twickenham, London
25 – 21 to England
2016 Six Nations Championship

26 September 2015: Twickenham, London
25 – 28 to Wales
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A

26 September 2015: Twickenham, London
25 – 28 to Wales
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A

6 February 2015: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
16 – 21 to England
2015 Six Nations

9 March 2014: Twickenham Stadium, London
29 – 18 to England
2014 Six Nations

16 March 2013: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
30 – 3 to Wales
2013 Six Nations

25 February 2012: Twickenham Stadium, London
12 – 19 to Wales
2012 Six Nations

13 August 2011: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 9 to Wales
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test

6 August 2011: Twickenham, London
23 – 19 to England
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test

C. Teams

WALES
6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February Burton10

6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February Burton10

15-Leigh Halfpenny, 14-George North, 13-Jonathan Davies, 12-Scott Williams, 11-Liam Williams, 10-Dan Biggar, 9-Rhys Webb; 1-Rob Evans, 2-Ken Owens, 3-Tomas Francis, 4-Jake Ball, 5-Alun Wyn Jones, 6-Sam Warburton, 7-Justin Tipuric; 8-Ross Moriarty.

Replacements: 16-Scott Baldwin, 17-Nicky Smith, 18-Samson Lee, 19-Cory Hill, 20-Taulupe Faletau, 21-Gareth Davies, 22-Sam Davies, 23-Jamie Roberts.

ENGLAND
6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February Carygr10

6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February Carygr10

15-Mike Brown, 14-Jack Nowell, 13-Jonathan Joseph, 12-Owen Farrell, 11-Elliot Daly, 10-George Ford, 9-Ben Youngs; 1-Joe Marler, 2-Dylan Hartley (captain), 3-Dan Cole, 4-Joe Launchbury, 5-Courtney Lawes, 6-Maro Itoje, 7-Jack Clifford, 8-Nathan Hughes.

Replacements: 16-Jamie George, 17-Matt Mullan, 18-Kyle Sinckler, 19-Tom Wood, 20-James Haskell, 21-Danny Care, 22-Ben Te'o, 23-Jonny May.

by GunsGermsV2 Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:01 pm

Interesting game in the making. England injuries and Wales home advantage should make this fairly evenly matched. What odds on a draw?

by Cyril Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:02 pm

Kick off is 16:50 (not 6.50pm) Smile

by munkian Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:02 pm

Christ that's late - how am I supposed to calm the nerves for 10 hours without being parallactic for KO ? Shocked

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:02 pm

Cyril wrote:Kick off is 16:50 (not 6.50pm)

Of course it is - sorry!

by Guest Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:19 pm

COME ON THEN Wales

6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February Hqdefault

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:33 pm

I'm not sure what I make of Howley saying, 'We've done a lot of our analysis on England already.' The game against France was only one game, clearly, and it was a game England won, which is the whole point, but I'd be disappointed if they didn't give due weight to how England played last Saturday - and how France played. England will have learnt a lot too, but they're not necessarily things that can be fixed in the space of a week.

by majesticimperialman Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:13 pm

This will be a tough game to call for both teams. England will wan't to win obviously to keep their winning record unbeaten run going, and to win hopefully a second Grand Slam.

England may have a few injury problems from the France game. Nathan Huges did not look to good in the last 10 minutes or so.

Wales will wan't to win because they are at home, and to stop England's unbeaten record from continuing.

Wales may have a few injury problems as well. Waiting on Biggar and North.

I guess we will have to wait for the teams to be anounced.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:16 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Nathan Huges did not look to good in the last 10 minutes or so.

He didn't look too good in the first 70 either Whistle

by **rodders** Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:16 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Interesting game in the making. England injuries and Wales home advantage should make this fairly evenly matched. What odds on a draw?

Nice one Guns I'm thinking 3 all myself.

by Mr Bounce Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:19 pm

I am waiting for this one with utter excitement. Any Welsh or English fan will happily tell you that this is THE game of the 6 Nations. Wales LOVE to beat the English and England LOVE to beat the Welsh.

The interesting thing is that England played badly, and Wales played badly in their respective games. Could be some interesting selections due to come this week, and probably not only dependent on fitness. I guess (and to paraphrase a well-used saying relating to the French) it depends on which England and Wales turn up on the day...

by hugehandoff Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:37 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:England will wan't to win obviously to keep their winning record unbeaten run going, and to win hopefully a second Grand Slam.

Wales will wan't to win because they are at home, and to stop England's unbeaten record from continuing.

Breaking news...both sides apparently want to win Whistle

by hugehandoff Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:41 pm

Enough evidence in round 1 to make a convincing case for a Welsh win. Wales have underperformed for far too long and yet come the conclusion of round 2 they could be the only ones left with the possibility of a Grand Slam.

Under Howley that is a strong probability.

I actually do see a Wales win. They will be too strong given England's injury problems.

by Guest Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:02 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'm not sure what I make of Howley saying, 'We've done a lot of our analysis on England already.' The game against France was only one game, clearly, and it was a game England won, which is the whole point, but I'd be disappointed if they didn't give due weight to how England played last Saturday - and how France played. England will have learnt a lot too, but they're not necessarily things that can be fixed in the space of a week.

Probably should have kept his mouth shut and not told the media, but let's make no mistake, England were doing likewise on Wales, if not quite to the same extent because Wales had the weakest team in the tournament. Perhaps part of the reason why England were so rusty and unprepared for a French team that, though improved, made so many shocking errors at the transition stages, like restarts, exit strategies, and kick chase/receipt.

I disagree on preparing early. You go on what England have shown over the last 12 months. You pick apart their elements of success: how they were so good at blitzing and disrupting opposition breakdown ball etc. their kick chase tactics, and you prepare for that. However, Wales would be naive to think that Eddie Jones, Gustard and Borthwick- and whoever the attack coach is- won't have held something back for the Wales and Ireland games that they've worked on in camp over the last fortnight. You don't show your hand first round, and you don't just rest on your laurels of last year.

Big risk, admittedly, and it's why it's useful to analyse in advance, because there's only so much you can change in the lead up to one tournament without weeks of planning with the players like a RWC. You can't analyse and prepare for everything. I think if there has been one key failing to the Welsh team since 2014, it's been the failure to adapt to on pitch situations until it's too late: i.e. England last 6Ns.

Whatever people think of the Italy game, and yes it was tentative against a team that you could tell within the first five minutes was low on quality, I think they adapted pretty well from their initial attempt to blow them out the water with tries early on. Pragmatism and squeezing the game out of them led to the tries late on. That hasn't always been the case in previous years. Big step up against England, but adaptation will be the difference, and its an area England have shown more ability in than was since the RWC.

by Guest Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:10 pm

hugehandoff wrote:I actually do see a Wales win. They will be too strong given England's injury problems.

No chance. England's bench was the difference against France. It's a point of strength unrivalled in World Rugby outside NZ.

I do think Wales can win, but they'll have to box clever. They have to rediscover running the ball, which they have been so reluctant to do against England since England found pacy centres and wingers (remember Barritt in the centre, Brown on the wing, Goode at full back). The threat of turning it over against England is a real one: not least because England also have the bulk up front to make it happen more often than any other 6Ns team if you move it wide. Wales and Ireland are still technically better for me, but it's less consistent than just sending in Haskell or whoever rumbling over your player shielding possession.

Expect Wales to open up in the last 20 if they need to. I hope they aren't too far adrift at that point, or start well, tail off, and lose the crowd as England get back into it. The crowd needs to be part of the team: not taking selfies, not getting a pint every stoppage, not playing pantomime, but giving the English hell wherever they can. That's when Sam Davies comes into the game. Let him unleash Scott Williams, Jon Davies, Liam and North, all of whom are quick when up to speed.

The main fear is that Jamie Roberts replaces Scott Williams around the hour mark. Worst thing that could happen to our backline. I can see it happening in almost every scenario, winning, losing, or drawing, by whatever score.

by **LondonTiger** Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:27 pm

My least favourite game of the year - mainly because it brings the worst out of all of us. Therefore my last post till after the final whistle on this thread. I will be back after all is done and dusted to either congratulate or commiserate with our Welsh brethren. Not sure I will even listen to the game (will be travelling home from Tigers match when it is on).

May you all have a pleasant few days discussing life and the game Very Happy

by majesticimperialman Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:29 pm

England's bench was the difference against France. It's a point of strength unrivalled in World Rugby outside NZ.

The one thing i like about Eddie Jones is the use of the bench. he does not bring players on for the sake of it, or just to give players a run out. He will only use the bench when necessary, like on saturday against France at the right time, and change the style of play.

by Breadvan Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:17 am

Intriguing game. Both teams were unimpressive until late on and while EJ said he didn't prepare the team well v France, I bet he wasn't happy with the players who were poor. Expected minimal changes by both sides..

by munkian Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:23 am

I'd like to see Eddie keep running his mouth and the Wales camp shut up shop and get into a real siege mentality - Howler isn't exactly a bantersaurus so probably for the best IMO

by Sgt_Pooly Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:31 am

If it's an arm wrestle, England will win. If Wales open up and play, we could be in for a tough evening. I'm less confident about this one after the poor showing against the French.

by Breadvan Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:39 am

Lol EJ is hardly running his mouth. Not Gatlandball standard anyway Wink

If we see Youngs passing to feet and lineouts bouncing off Coles bonce then Eng will be in trouble.....again.

by whocares Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:49 am

munkian wrote:I'd like to see Eddie keep running his mouth and the Wales camp shut up shop and get into a real siege mentality - Howler isn't exactly a bantersaurus so probably for the best IMO

Unlikely to happen ...

"I can't work out why the record of England in Wales is so poor. I'm sure they have [had good teams down the years], but they are a country of three million people," Jones said.

Smile

by Guest Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:58 am

LondonTiger wrote:My least favourite game of the year - mainly because it brings the worst out of all of us. Therefore my last post till after the final whistle on this thread. I will be back after all is done and dusted to either congratulate or commiserate with our Welsh brethren. Not sure I will even listen to the game (will be travelling home from Tigers match when it is on).

May you all have a pleasant few days discussing life and the game

So true! Which is unfortunate.

I'm usually relatively confident when we're at home but this year I just don't feel it. Can't see past an England win. Sorry. I watched the Italy 2nd half back again last night. It's one thing to watch the highlights reel where we looked quite good (2nd half). But there were still lots of worrying things even in the 2nd half when we were supposed to be much better (according to the scoreboard). We had a real lack of penetration with the forwards. Moriaty charging into the Italian defense but not making any ground; the props not getting over the gainline. Tipuric from memory not being very effective on the ground, but luckily Warburton contributing in that role. That is just going to be magnified against England. Where we did make yards was when we ran through gaps rather than the man. Just a few half breaks by (I think) Sam Davies, probably when the Italians were tiring, with Tipuric in support, and that led to length of the field moves that set us up for some tries. But it's a big leap of faith to think that it will be that easy to go the length of the field against England.

I know we all like to banter and mildly WUM each other but if you ask any real Welsh rugby fans they'll tell you that England's 15 game winning streak is a mighty achievement and not to be sniffed at. I won't go as far as saying we're in awe of it, but if it was us I know we wouldn't shut up about it! So I doff my cap to that statistic and know that we're seriously up against it on Saturday. If we lose, which I fear we will, then I just hope it's very close and is not a game based solely on penalties and kicks. I want to see us leave nothing out there. I know it's not as big a game for England as it is for Wales as we all have our own separate rivalries, so I'm just hoping that the added fire that this fixture gives the Welsh can be worth the extra 10% that we need to find to compete and win.

Wales

by munkian Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:02 am

They have the biggest player pool and richest union in the world. It's their's to lose.

by Gooseberry Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:13 am

Cyril wrote:Kick off is 16:50 (not 6.50pm)

To be fair neither team turned up till late last weekend

by **RiscaGame** Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:15 am

The best thing Jones can do if he really wants all this "Welsh ramp up the hate" etc is let them shut the roof to show the atmosphere doesn't bother England at all. I have a feeling he will want it shut
too.

by beshocked Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:17 am

munkian true England do have the biggest player pool and richest union but if the coach doesn't start the best players... picard

Need to start strong, not rely on the bench to bail England out of trouble again.

England are vulnerable at the moment. Players not in form, injuries to key players.

Itoje didn't find it easy at 6 but then again he wasn't playing with Haskell or Billy was he?

He was playing with Hughes and Wood who I thought were both not great.

If England are to improve I think both two in particular need to up their game.

by Scottrf Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:17 am

Not worried at all. Wales are pants and we should win fairly comfortably even away from home.

by Sgt_Pooly Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:21 am

beshocked wrote:munkian true England do have the biggest player pool and richest union but if the coach doesn't start the ~~best~~ Saracens players...

by True Raven Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:24 am

I'm just glad this game isn't on a Friday night

by munkian Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:34 am

Scottrf wrote:Not worried at all. Wales are pants and we should win fairly comfortably even away from home.

Hope the England players turn up thinking the win is a full gone conclusion again Rolling Eyes

by munkian Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:35 am

True Raven wrote:I'm just glad this game isn't on a Friday night

Same, not a fan of them at all.

by beshocked Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:53 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
beshocked wrote:munkian true England do have the biggest player pool and richest union but if the coach doesn't start the ~~best~~ Saracens players...

Haskell doesn't play for Saracens.

by GunsGermsV2 Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:54 am

beshocked wrote:munkian true England do have the biggest player pool and richest union but if the coach doesn't start the best players...

Need to start strong, not rely on the bench to bail England out of trouble again.

England are vulnerable at the moment. Players not in form, injuries to key players.

Itoje didn't find it easy at 6 but then again he wasn't playing with Haskell or Billy was he?

He was playing with Hughes and Wood who I thought were both not great.

If England are to improve I think both two in particular need to up their game.

Looks like England are feeling the effects of a depleted squad which is not unsurprising. Billy V is a big loss.

Joe Launchbury looked quite overweight to me. Anyone else notice that?

by TightHEAD Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:55 am

This one is too close to call, Wales will be up for it and play better than they have for a number of games with or without Rob's influence!

England are missing some key players Robshaw, Billy and Mako whilst Ford went MIA and did nothing vs France! all would make a difference imho, not an excuse due to our depth but hey the new guys really need to turn up and be counted otherwise Wales will win.

My Prediction - Wales win by a score.

Roof Closed.

by GunsGermsV2 Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:02 pm

I think Wales might shade it too. If France were an organised side with tactics and dicipline they probably would have won on Saturday.

by majesticimperialman Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:02 pm

Tighthead.

I do not thnk that England will wan't the roof closed.

by TightHEAD Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:04 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Tighthead.

I do not thnk that England will wan't the roof closed.

They should as if we get it right we will score tries vs Wales.

Eddie will play mind games then opt for it to be closed.

by mid_gen Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:06 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:If it's an arm wrestle, England will win. If Wales open up and play, we could be in for a tough evening. I'm less confident about this one after the poor showing against the French.

On the contrary, I think if the game opens up England have the edge. They have the more coherent and clinical attack, and the better bench to do damage in the last quarter of an open game.

Our attack was snuffed out by France by their pack and big carriers, the question is, can Wales shut us down the same way? I'm not so sure, especially if the Hask is back starting.

by Scottrf Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:08 pm

I think I'd rather have the roof closed if it means better conditions to chase the bonus point.

by Guest Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:09 pm

RiscaGame wrote:The best thing Jones can do if he really wants all this "Welsh ramp up the hate" etc is let them shut the roof to show the atmosphere doesn't bother England at all. I have a feeling he will want it shut
too.

That's some interesting double bluff logic going on there. Don't be fooled by the charade. It's confidence, no doubt, but there's also a lot of self-aware kidology. He knows the players fear going to Wales, albeit less so the more 2013 fades into the past. He can also see the quality of the Welsh players and how we've been less than the sum of our parts for a while now.

He's worried, but also determined, and knows England could quite easily beat us if they prepare well. His comments in the media trying to demystify Wales- the grass is the same, the air is the same- is all part of that preparation. As is having the roof open. I'd be amazed if he agreed to it being shut.

Eddie Jones doesn't love to be hated, which is where I think you're coming from. It's that he doesn't care or need to be loved. Everything else is about preparation for winning, and that often spills over into d1ckhead territory as Gatland has done many times with pre-game verbals in the media. I cannot fathom why he would risk a repeat of the 2013 crowd unless a downpour was forecast?

by TightHEAD Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:17 pm

With the ticket price increases the ~~Millennium Stadium~~ Principality Stadium will be full of toffs anyway so I don't think a repeat of 2013 crowd noise is an issue.

by Guest Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:23 pm

Scottrf wrote:I think I'd rather have the roof closed if it means better conditions to chase the bonus point.

Howley asked for that pre-tournament from the 6N organisers and was turned down. Not sure whether that means it can't be agreed between the 2 sides on a game by game basis though? Howley's reasons were the same: if the whole idea is to chase bonus points then sides will want to play in the best conditions possible. However, for me if it's dry then leave it open. Closing it when dry outside doesn't improve the conditions inside. It actually makes the pitch quite greasy, for some reason.

by SecretFly Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:24 pm

I hate to be so pragmatic and strategic of mind when talking about the Great seasonal classic between great rivals England and Wales. It'll be a Game! So one to look forward to on a purely pleasure basis.

But..., after the weekend we've just had,... it is back to business and the plotting and planning; and in that respect, the really good thing about the game between Wales and England is that one of them are more than likely to lose. Two great sides - it's important that one of them loses now to rejig the table a little and offer renewed hope to others. Wink

Of course Italy could do a job on us and kill off even that sliver of hope Whistle

... but this England v Wales game has something for everyone. Wink

by Exiledinborders Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:26 pm

Scottrf wrote:I think I'd rather have the roof closed if it means better conditions to chase the bonus point.

You are right however it does then lead to the question of whether the roof should be allowed at all.

If one accepts the idea that a closed roof means ideal conditions and that in turn leads to more tries then logically any team coming to Cardiff should choose to have the roof closed as it maximises their chances of a bonus point in that match. However if all teams choose to do so that means that Wales will have two or three games with that advantage and the other teams one or no games.

by SecretFly Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:29 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
Scottrf wrote:I think I'd rather have the roof closed if it means better conditions to chase the bonus point.
You are right however it does then lead to the question of whether the roof should be allowed at all.

If one accepts the idea that a closed roof means ideal conditions and that in turn leads to more tries then logically any team coming to Cardiff should choose to have the roof closed as it maximises their chances of a bonus point in that match. However if all teams choose to do so that means that Wales will have two or three games with that advantage and the other teams one or no games.

Stop it! You're exposing the developing plan and the perfectly growing propaganda that even visiting teams should want the roof closed in their own bestest interests! Whistle

by Guest Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:32 pm

If it's not in Wales' interests we'll just turn down the request!

by TightHEAD Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:34 pm

Roof open and it rains, the ball is wet.

Roof closed the ball becomes greasy.

Makes no odds to me but Rugby is an outdoor game.

by True Raven Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:36 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
Scottrf wrote:I think I'd rather have the roof closed if it means better conditions to chase the bonus point.
You are right however it does then lead to the question of whether the roof should be allowed at all.

If one accepts the idea that a closed roof means ideal conditions and that in turn leads to more tries then logically any team coming to Cardiff should choose to have the roof closed as it maximises their chances of a bonus point in that match. However if all teams choose to do so that means that Wales will have two or three games with that advantage and the other teams one or no games.

That's what I thought when Howley complained about not being able to close the roof for all home games.....then I thought f*** it, you lot missed a trick by not having your own roof Very Happy

by SecretFly Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:41 pm

I'm with tightHead...even though he's been a wumtastic poster lately Wink

.

Rugby is an outdoor game. The weather should be allowed in to affect it. You already got the professional fields cleaned up (drainage) to get the muck out of your expensive boots. Let's not go too far down the pampered route.

But if Rugby does become an indoor sport then I want to see snooker brought outdoors to balance things up.

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