6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February

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WALES v ENGLAND 
11 February 2017
KO:16:50 GMT
Principality Stadium, Cardiff

Live on [ITV, RTE, SC4, FR2, DMAX / BBC (H)]

Referee: Jerome Garces (France)
Touch judges: Pascal Gauzere (France) & Nick Briant (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

A. Head to Head

129 Played 129
57 Won 60
12 Drawn 12
60 Lost 57
1,673 Points 1,518

B. Recent Form 

29 May 2016: Twickenham, London
27 – 13 to England
2016 mid-year rugby union internationals

12 March 2016: Twickenham, London
25 – 21 to England
2016 Six Nations Championship

26 September 2015: Twickenham, London
25 – 28 to Wales
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A

26 September 2015: Twickenham, London 
25 – 28 to Wales 
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A 

6 February 2015: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
16 – 21 to England 
2015 Six Nations 

9 March 2014: Twickenham Stadium, London 
29 – 18 to England 
2014 Six Nations 

16 March 2013: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
30 – 3 to Wales 
2013 Six Nations 

25 February 2012: Twickenham Stadium, London 
12 – 19 to Wales 
2012 Six Nations

13 August 2011: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
19 – 9 to Wales 
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test 

6 August 2011: Twickenham, London 
23 – 19 to England 
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test 

C. Teams

WALES

15-Leigh Halfpenny, 14-George North, 13-Jonathan Davies, 12-Scott Williams, 11-Liam Williams, 10-Dan Biggar, 9-Rhys Webb; 1-Rob Evans, 2-Ken Owens, 3-Tomas Francis, 4-Jake Ball, 5-Alun Wyn Jones, 6-Sam Warburton, 7-Justin Tipuric; 8-Ross Moriarty.

Replacements: 16-Scott Baldwin, 17-Nicky Smith, 18-Samson Lee, 19-Cory Hill, 20-Taulupe Faletau, 21-Gareth Davies, 22-Sam Davies, 23-Jamie Roberts.

ENGLAND

15-Mike Brown, 14-Jack Nowell, 13-Jonathan Joseph, 12-Owen Farrell, 11-Elliot Daly, 10-George Ford, 9-Ben Youngs; 1-Joe Marler, 2-Dylan Hartley (captain), 3-Dan Cole, 4-Joe Launchbury, 5-Courtney Lawes, 6-Maro Itoje, 7-Jack Clifford, 8-Nathan Hughes.

Replacements: 16-Jamie George, 17-Matt Mullan, 18-Kyle Sinckler, 19-Tom Wood, 20-James Haskell, 21-Danny Care, 22-Ben Te'o, 23-Jonny May.

It's the hysteria, Luckless. 4 years ago Biggar was the 10 as Wales beat England 30-3, but what good are facts in the face of a witch hunt? Of course it's all Biggar's fault. It's Biggar's fault when Cuthbert refuses to attack or defend. It's Biggar's fault when our set piece collapses. It's Biggar's fault when a player misses a tackle.

Hook was excellent at 10 when he first broke through in 2006, but the game swiftly changed, and by 2008, Wales was one of the teams at the head of that curve in the NH, and Stephen Jones a far better international outside half for those new demands. But even until a few years ago, you'd still get the same "WHERE'S HOOKY!?" at every squad announcement.

Despite having done relatively little at Test level, it's the same old comments with only the names changed: Hook has become Sam Davies. What does Sam Davies need to do? Not be mismanaged. It's really that simple. Biggar's one of our better players, Sam Davies one of our most inexperienced.

It does make me question whether people have ever actually played rugby competitively if they don't understand that point. By experience, we're not talking about pot bellied veterans here who would pin him at the bottom of the ruck if only they could catch him.

This is the England Rugby team he'll be facing tomorrow. There's a different kind of game managements required against Treviso or even Leinster than there is against England in the Six Nations.

JoseyWales wrote:If north out  would rather halfpenny on wing and put biggar fullback and Sam at ten with Owen Williams on bench . What's the point of Jamie Roberts on the bench . He either first choice or no choice .

It's not Fantasy Rugby.

I think you're getting a bit carried away there, Miaow. All I did was copy a post I found amusing. You're the first person to have mentioned James Hook (and Shane Williams).

cascough wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:The roof at the Principality Stadium will be closed for the match at the request of England coach Eddie Jones.

Which one is true?

He has made a request for it to be OPEN not CLOSED as reported by the BBC, having previously made a big charade about not being bothered and leading Wales to believe to will therefore remain closed, at the last minute he's made it clear he's very bothered and has changed his mind.

Let's be clear, he hasn't requested anything. He has simply failed to grant Wales' request.

Rugby is an outdoor sport and so Wales have had to request special dispensation to play the game indoors. This has not been granted. How on earth it is consistently the opposition that get labelled as somehow doing something wrong or out of the ordinary here is beyond me.

Er yes he has. He has requested the roof be open. It is the opposition side who, stupidly, get to decide whether the roof is open or closed and since he knows his boys get a bit wobbly in the atmos he has asked for it to be closed. got it?

TightHEAD wrote:

True Raven wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Good odds on Cuthbert scoring the winning try!

You'd be throwing your money away then as according to the press conference today, North is still playing

Wales mind games have gone down hill this year. Oooo the suspense is killing us all.

nearly as much suspense as Eddie and his roof nonsense, but not quite

Gwlad wrote:

cascough wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:The roof at the Principality Stadium will be closed for the match at the request of England coach Eddie Jones.

Which one is true?

He has made a request for it to be OPEN not CLOSED as reported by the BBC, having previously made a big charade about not being bothered and leading Wales to believe to will therefore remain closed, at the last minute he's made it clear he's very bothered and has changed his mind.

Let's be clear, he hasn't requested anything. He has simply failed to grant Wales' request.

Rugby is an outdoor sport and so Wales have had to request special dispensation to play the game indoors. This has not been granted. How on earth it is consistently the opposition that get labelled as somehow doing something wrong or out of the ordinary here is beyond me.

Er yes he has. He has requested the roof be open. It is the opposition side who, stupidly, get to decide whether the roof is open or closed and since he knows his boys get a bit wobbly in the atmos he has asked for it to be closed. got it?

Have you got it?

I think it's the public calling for Biggar to be cast aside and Sam Davies made the heir to the mythologised #10 jersey who are getting carried away. That was my point Luckless, but there we are.

I hope Biggar has a great game tomorrow, kicks well from hand, and is given enough front foot ball to let Scott Williams and Jonathan Davies have a run with it. I hope Halfpenny kicks well because he's looked inconsistent since his injury, having a shocking day at Parc y Scarlets along with some wayward kicking at the start of the Autumn, and a poor first kick last weekend. If so, Biggar is more than capable of stepping up. This is the kind of game where 2 or 3 points through a kick will be vital, and throughout the game, not just at the end, as the goalkicking and scoreline has shifted momentum and dictated the attitude of both teams almost every time they've met in a competitive fixture since 2010. It kept us in the game- albeit fruitlessly- in 2014, gave us the platform to go and take the game in the final quarter it in 2013 and the RWC in '15, and our inability to chip away in the second half in 2015 and first half of 2016 meant we left ourselves with too much to do late on. On such fine margins have Test matches between these two teams been dictated.

If Sam Davies is needed, I hope he manages the unfair expectation and pressure that's been heaped upon him in what is already a highly pressurised environment. He's more than capable in Rugby terms, I hope he's allowed to flourish towards the end of the game and get our outside backs moving at pace if we're looking to score tries, but if he crumbles, it'll be partly through our own overzealous fascination with what he represents.

It does depend a bit on the players' character, throwing them in. I mean, you wouldn't have worried about Jiffy. I'm not quite sure with Sam Davies, he seems fairly collected but does try too hard sometimes which maybe suggests nerves get to him.

You do seem to think that everyone who rates Sam Davies is some kind of hopeless rugby romantic. Some are, no doubt - but not all.

It's possible to be knowledgeable about the modern game and still think Sam Davies would be the better choice.

Turning on each other now.

Gwlad wrote:

cascough wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:The roof at the Principality Stadium will be closed for the match at the request of England coach Eddie Jones.

Which one is true?

He has made a request for it to be OPEN not CLOSED as reported by the BBC, having previously made a big charade about not being bothered and leading Wales to believe to will therefore remain closed, at the last minute he's made it clear he's very bothered and has changed his mind.

Let's be clear, he hasn't requested anything. He has simply failed to grant Wales' request.

Rugby is an outdoor sport and so Wales have had to request special dispensation to play the game indoors. This has not been granted. How on earth it is consistently the opposition that get labelled as somehow doing something wrong or out of the ordinary here is beyond me.

Er yes he has. He has requested the roof be open. It is the opposition side who, stupidly, get to decide whether the roof is open or closed and since he knows his boys get a bit wobbly in the atmos he has asked for it to be closed. got it?

Incorrect.

Rugby is an outdoor sport so Wales have to have special dispensation if they want to play it indoors. Regardless of the "it's our stadium" nonsense.

Wales submitted a request to the 6N organisation to play all their games indoors. It was refused.

Ergo Wales now need to submit a request to each union they are playing at home (England in this case). Wales have submitted this request and it has been refused.

Wales are the ones wanting to do something out of the ordinary here. England and Jones have not requested anything. They have merely denied Wales' wishes to do something, which the 6N have already denied.

Following the ' shall we, shan't we in the tunnel two years ago, the 6N issued a decree that all teams should enter the stadium together.
The 6N should also get their act together and confirm that rugby is an outdoor sport and ban roofs and also plastic pitches. This tedious bi-annual panto farce can then be ditched.

Eddie Jones was never going to allow a closed roof.

Scottrf wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

cascough wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:The roof at the Principality Stadium will be closed for the match at the request of England coach Eddie Jones.

Which one is true?

He has made a request for it to be OPEN not CLOSED as reported by the BBC, having previously made a big charade about not being bothered and leading Wales to believe to will therefore remain closed, at the last minute he's made it clear he's very bothered and has changed his mind.

Let's be clear, he hasn't requested anything. He has simply failed to grant Wales' request.

Rugby is an outdoor sport and so Wales have had to request special dispensation to play the game indoors. This has not been granted. How on earth it is consistently the opposition that get labelled as somehow doing something wrong or out of the ordinary here is beyond me.

Er yes he has. He has requested the roof be open. It is the opposition side who, stupidly, get to decide whether the roof is open or closed and since he knows his boys get a bit wobbly in the atmos he has asked for it to be closed. got it?

Have you got it?

He isn't sure yet, he'll let us know before the game though apparently

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It's possible to be knowledgeable about the modern game and still think Sam Davies would be the better choice.

Why do you think that? With specific evidence, like I've given plenty of relating to the tactics and opposition and occasion tomorrow? You mentioned something about moving the ball wide quickly- as if Sam Davies is specifically better than Biggar at this, it doesn't need a great footballer to ship it wide to his centres as quickly as possible- which to me demonstrates an underestimation of how good England are, and the threat such a tactic would pose, particularly early in the game. You didn't come back on this because...well, I'm not sure?

I can't see how you could come to the conclusion that Sam Davies would be the better option than Biggar if he's fit unless you genuinely are a romantic or have never really played to game, and so don't understand it, but there we go.

Recwatcher16 wrote:Following the ' shall we, shan't we in the tunnel two years ago, the 6N issued a decree that all teams should enter the stadium together.
The 6N should also get their act together and confirm that rugby is an outdoor sport and ban roofs and also plastic pitches. This tedious bi-annual panto farce can then be ditched.

Eddie Jones was never going to allow a closed roof.

I agree. The roof should not be closed for all sports games. Only closed for concerts, etc. However, just to point out that other teams/nations have requested for it to be shut in the past, not just Wales. When it suited them of course. I believe Lancaster in 2013 and I think Ireland requested it once. Think we might have turned them down then though!!!

I'm going for a score prediction. Wales to stay in the game with some heroic defence and end up sneaking into the lead in the last 15 minutes, before holding out defiantly.

23-21

Who decides about the roof on judgment day?

Why can't the blasted roof just jam and rust up in either closed or opened position and take the bloody decision out of the hands of mere mortal humanbeings.  Rec is dead right - I'm fecking absolutely sick of the Millennial Stadium (I'll still call it it's original name) f**king Roof debate every year.

Just weld it - closed or shut - but quit having press-conferences about the bloody thing!!!

Thank you for listening..

miaow wrote:I'm going for a score prediction. Wales to stay in the game with some heroic defence and end up sneaking into the lead in the last 15 minutes, before holding out defiantly.

23-21

Cuthbert to make a try saving tackle in the 79min by chasing down Jonny May after a intercepted pass in Englands own 22 and becomes a national legend all over again.

miaow wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It's possible to be knowledgeable about the modern game and still think Sam Davies would be the better choice.

Why do you think that? With specific evidence, like I've given plenty of relating to the tactics and opposition and occasion tomorrow? You mentioned something about moving the ball wide quickly- as if Sam Davies is specifically better than Biggar at this, it doesn't need a great footballer to ship it wide to his centres as quickly as possible- which to me demonstrates an underestimation of how good England are, and the threat such a tactic would pose, particularly early in the game. You didn't come back on this because...well, I'm not sure?

I can't see how you could come to the conclusion that Sam Davies would be the better option than Biggar if he's fit unless you genuinely are a romantic or have never really played to game, and so don't understand it, but there we go.

Well there you go, folks. Miaow has spoken!

Who has the most 'World Class Players?'

Also Miaow, just to be clear: to advocate Sam Davies is not to denigrate Dan Biggar. He's a fine player and I hope he has a stormer.

Interesting that both sides are having a similar debate about two players who were the respective stars of the JRWC for their nations in the same year.

Worrying about individual inexperience is a bit silly. Everybody's got to start somewhere. Nobody was born a 20 cap international, not even Maro Itoje.

I do dimly remember the fuss in NZ about ditching their experienced 7 in favour of a 22 year old Richie McCaw. As with Itoje, it turned out all right.

Collective inexperience of a team or a unit is more a concern, but in England's case, there's no real choice.

I can imagine Eddie's selection chat with Jack Clifford. "Ah mate. You know how they say 'cometh the hour, cometh the man'? Well, the hour's definitely cometh. Reckon you could be the man?"

TightHEAD wrote:Who has the most 'World Class Players?'

New Zealand

..then Ireland....

SecretFly wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Who has the most 'World Class Players?'

New Zealand

..then Ireland....

Where were they last week?

TightHEAD wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Who has the most 'World Class Players?'

New Zealand

..then Ireland....

Where were they last week?

em...that was a little joke, Tight. Don't let the tension get to you.

We all know New Zealand's stars ain't what they used to be.

The roof is ridiculous. They should either ban the usage of it or say as far as the Six Nations is concerned, the Six Nations is a closed ground and it will always be shut. It's my least favourite sideshow, "rugby" columnists spend so long on it when I'd rather read more opinion pieces on the game and the players.

I think the Davies/Biggar debate is similar to the Ford/Farrell debate we had in England, one that probably still isn't fully settled, just paused as we don't have a good enough option at 12.

Now, I haven't seen a lot of Davies, but I personally thought that Biggar and Roberts at 10/12 was too stodgy, the equivalent of playing Farrell and Barritt at 10/12 in the 2015 World Cup. No surprise when the two teams met with these guys on the pitch, the game ended up a kick-off with just one try a piece.

However, I think with Williams and Davies outside him, Biggar is a strong option. His defence and kicking game are right up there and in attack he can look to hit one of his strike runners outside, as opposed to just trucking up Roberts and playing round the corner.

TightHEAD wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Who has the most 'World Class Players?'

New Zealand

..then Ireland....

Where were they last week?

On the bus

SecretFly wrote:Why can't the blasted roof just jam and rust up in either closed or opened position and take the bloody decision out of the hands of mere mortal humanbeings.  Rec is dead right - I'm fecking absolutely sick of the Millennial Stadium (I'll still call it it's original name) f**king Roof debate every year.

Just weld it - closed or shut - but quit having press-conferences about the bloody thing!!!

Thank you for listening..

Apparently, Cardiff Arms Park is to be redeveloped in the very near future and the new stadium will supposedly have a retractable roof. Imagine that! Be able to argue the toss every other week. Marvelous!

Would be awful if both roofs become accidentally permanently closed shut...

robbo277 wrote:The roof is ridiculous. They should either ban the usage of it or say as far as the Six Nations is concerned, the Six Nations is a closed ground and it will always be shut. It's my least favourite sideshow, "rugby" columnists spend so long on it when I'd rather read more opinion pieces on the game and the players.

I think the Davies/Biggar debate is similar to the Ford/Farrell debate we had in England, one that probably still isn't fully settled, just paused as we don't have a good enough option at 12.

Now, I haven't seen a lot of Davies, but I personally thought that Biggar and Roberts at 10/12 was too stodgy, the equivalent of playing Farrell and Barritt at 10/12 in the 2015 World Cup. No surprise when the two teams met with these guys on the pitch, the game ended up a kick-off with just one try a piece.

However, I think with Williams and Davies outside him, Biggar is a strong option. His defence and kicking game are right up there and in attack he can look to hit one of his strike runners outside, as opposed to just trucking up Roberts and playing round the corner.

Most the so called journos write about it because they have very little rugby knowledge so it saves them showing themselves up.

robo2777

As far as i know Wales is the only stadium with a roof.

So as every other country as to play out side in the 6ns.

Then it is simple Wales do not have a say, THE ROOF STAYS OPEN.

SecretFly wrote:Why can't the blasted roof just jam and rust up in either closed or opened position and take the bloody decision out of the hands of mere mortal humanbeings.  Rec is dead right - I'm fecking absolutely sick of the Millennial Stadium (I'll still call it it's original name) f**king Roof debate every year.

Just weld it - closed or shut - but quit having press-conferences about the bloody thing!!!

Thank you for listening..

Good idea. But should it be welded open or closed. Perhaps I will start a thread to decide.

majesticimperialman wrote:robo2777

As far as i know Wales is the only stadium with a roof.

So as every other country as to play out side in the 6ns.

Then it is simple Wales do not have a say, THE ROOF STAYS OPEN.

The rules should either put it in the hands of the home team (who have managed to sourced a stadium with a roof) or ban it outright.

If they put it in the hands of the home team and other nations want to play their home games under cover as well, they'll have to get roofs whacked on their stadiums or move.

Can't believe it's always such big news, although I guess this year Eddie has been playing up to it. Still, I don't think there is any detail I care about less.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

robbo277 wrote:The roof is ridiculous. They should either ban the usage of it or say as far as the Six Nations is concerned, the Six Nations is a closed ground and it will always be shut. It's my least favourite sideshow, "rugby" columnists spend so long on it when I'd rather read more opinion pieces on the game and the players.

I think the Davies/Biggar debate is similar to the Ford/Farrell debate we had in England, one that probably still isn't fully settled, just paused as we don't have a good enough option at 12.

Now, I haven't seen a lot of Davies, but I personally thought that Biggar and Roberts at 10/12 was too stodgy, the equivalent of playing Farrell and Barritt at 10/12 in the 2015 World Cup. No surprise when the two teams met with these guys on the pitch, the game ended up a kick-off with just one try a piece.

However, I think with Williams and Davies outside him, Biggar is a strong option. His defence and kicking game are right up there and in attack he can look to hit one of his strike runners outside, as opposed to just trucking up Roberts and playing round the corner.

Most the so called journos write about it because they have very little rugby knowledge so it saves them showing themselves up.

I suppose there is truth in that. I'm deliberately not clicking on these links because I don't want to give them traffic. It's my one man crusade!

What if we had a glass roof, and closed it, but told the visitors we hadn't closed it?

But then a proper garryowen would give the game away....

TightHEAD wrote:Who has the most 'World Class Players?'

World Class
Wales: Faletau, Tipuric, Liam Williams

England: Joseph

Very Good:
Wales: AWJ, Warburton, Webb, North, Halfpenny

England: Marler, Launchbury, Itoje, Haskell, Ford, Farrell, Nowell

Thought long and hard about Tipuric. He's probably the best player in the Welsh squad, but is he a World Class openside? Tricky, but just about for me. England have probably suffered with injuries when compiling a list like this: Billy Vunipola's World Class, undoubtedly. Robshaw on the fringes, a bit like Warburton. I think it demonstrates- for me at least- how England are a very good sum of their parts, and Wales have been underperforming due to their individual talents. It's down to the tactical battle, and mentality as much as anything, as to who wins.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

miaow wrote:Why do you think that? With specific evidence [...]

Well there you go, folks. Miaow has spoken!

That's fine Luckless, let's move on, you don't want to talk about Rugby. I'm sure this has become even more boring for other people than it has for us.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:What if we had a glass roof, and closed it, but told the visitors we hadn't closed it?

But then a proper garryowen would give the game away....

Good idea. I'd add that you could sell packets of stones at halftime to let the crowd keep themselves amused by taking out a pane or two. Profits would soar.

I love the sound of breaking glass...

Neither Liam Williams nor Tipuric are World Class.

Faletau is though. Cracking player.

Always depends on definition really.

Cyril wrote:Neither Liam Williams nor Tipuric are World Class.

Faletau is though. Cracking player.

So speaks the oracle.

Don't forget that miaow is never, ever wrong 

Williams must be world class, he's keeping Cuthbert out of the side after all

Eddie's a world class fiddler.

Do people really think the press would talk about rugby instead if the roof wasn't a talking point?! Hogwash! They'd find something else equally as ridiculous to waste time talking about, like Marler's hair or someone's parentage or the pitch or some tiny thing a coach slipped out (so to speak) that can now be used as ammunition for the whole tournament.

Recwatcher16 wrote:Following the ' shall we, shan't we in the tunnel two years ago, the 6N issued a decree that all teams should enter the stadium together.
The 6N should also get their act together and confirm that rugby is an outdoor sport and ban roofs and also plastic pitches. This tedious bi-annual panto farce can then be ditched.

Eddie Jones was never going to allow a closed roof.

I've supported Wales for over 60 years and played rugby in the '50s and '60s. The changes at stadiums over that period have been immense. Once, before an England game at the Arms Park, I was moved, off my feet on the north terrace, from a spot opposite the halfway line to the 25 (sorry, 22) - because of a surge of fans coming in when the pubs closed at 3pm. Can you imagine that happening now, at any of the 6 Nations venues? Well, no - everyone's sitting down for a start, drinks can be bought in the stadiums and the pubs stay open so there's not such a rush.

It won't happen in my lifetime, but I think that one day all 6 Nations matches will be played under roofs in fantastic stadiums. That may not please most of today's fans but I reckon that's what the future holds.

I think the Millennium Roof will rust up (in an open position) before that happens. So it looks like the Millennium will be the only traditional open-air 6N stadium eventually.

The under 20s are about to kick off. Great result last year, hopefully we can do the same tonight.

majesticimperialman wrote:robo2777

As far as i know Wales is the only stadium with a roof.

This issue only comes up if the stadium roof is retractable. Toyota Stadium, Noevir Stadium Kobe and Ōita Bank Dome will be venues at the next World Cup, and all three have retractable roofs. The final was originally set for the new National Stadium, which was going to have a retractable roof, but it won't be ready in time (and may not have a roof now anyway)