6N 2017: England v France, 4 February

by **George Carlin** Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:14 am

6N 2017: England v France, 4 February France11

ENGLAND v FRANCE
4 February 2017
KO: 16:50
Twickenham, London

Live on ITV, FR2, RTE, DMAX, BBC (H)

Referee: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Touch judges: Glen Jackson (New Zealand) & Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Peter Fitzgibbon (Ireland)

A. Head to Head

102 Played 102
56 Won 39
7 Drawn 7
39 Lost 56
1623 Points 1290

B. Recent Form

19 March 2016
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
21 – 31 to England

22 August 2015
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
25 – 20 to France

15 August 2015
Twickenham, London
19 – 14 to England

21 March 2015
Twickenham, London
55 – 35 to England

1 February 2014
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
26 – 24 to France

C. Teams

ENGLAND
6N 2017: England v France, 4 February Mary-b10

6N 2017: England v France, 4 February Mary-b10

15-Mike Brown; 14-Jonny May, 13-Jonathan Joseph, 12-Owen Farrell, 11-Elliot Daly; 10-George Ford, 9-Ben Youngs; 1-Joe Marler, 2-Dylan Hartley (captain), 3-Dan Cole, 4-Joe Launchbury, 5-Courtney Lawes, 6-Maro Itoje, 7-Tom Wood, 8-Nathan Hughes

Replacements: 16-Jamie George, 17-Matt Mullan, 18-Kyle Sinckler 19-Teimana Harrison, 20-James Haskell, 21-Danny Care, 22-Ben Te'o, 23-Jack Nowell

FRANCE
6N 2017: England v France, 4 February Raymon10

6N 2017: England v France, 4 February Raymon10

15-Scott Spedding; 14-Noa Nakaitaci, 13-Remi Lamerat, 12-Gael Fickou, 11-Virimi Vakatawa; 10-Camille Lopez, 9-Baptiste Serin; 1-Cyril Baille, 2-Guilhem Guirado (captain), 3-Uini Atonio, 4-Sebastien Vahaamahina, 5-Yoann Maestri, 6-Damien Chouly, 7-Kevin Gourdon, 8-Louis Picamoles

Replacements: 16-Clement Maynadier, 17-Rabah Slimani, 18-Xavier Chiocci, 19-Arthur Iturria, 20-Loann Goujon, 21-Maxime Machenaud, 22-Jean Marc Doussain, 23-Yoann Huget

by beshocked Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:38 am

I think it's cool you actually put two rugby fans.

Good knowledge George Carlin.

Pretty worried about the French. Looked like a improved team in the AIs. I won't imagine it will be hard for Noves to motivate them though I hope Jones doesn't add fuel on the fire.

by funnyExiledScot Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:00 pm

If it were in France that would be one thing, but I just don't see Eddie Jones' England losing this on home turf. England now play at a tempo I think France will struggle with.

I think England will win with a bit to spare.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:25 pm

France haven't beaten England at Twickenham in the Six Nations since 2005 (they won there in 2007, but that was a World Cup warm-up game). They're due a win!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/international/4243757.stm

by whocares Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:41 pm

that was hardly vintage England though ... look at that back line :
Cueto, Noon, Barkley, Lewsey; C Hodgson, H Ellis ...

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:49 pm

Graham Rowntree was still in the side. That's how long ago it was!

by Breadvan Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:02 pm

The game Hodgson kicked Eng to defeat. I mean 6 missed pens... Sad

by majesticimperialman Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:14 pm

England under Eddie Jones as done very well. It will be good too see England carry on like they did last year, but with all the injuries they have, and France being the first game of the 6ns for England will in my opinion be a real test of how much depth England have in the squad.

I do expect England to win being at home. But i do not think it will be easy. France will want revenge for the loss last year.

It will be interesting to see what team England put out.

by BamBam Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:36 pm

More interesting to see who is left standing after the inevitable last Euro game massacre

by whocares Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:46 pm

BamBam wrote:More interesting to see who is left standing after the inevitable last Euro game massacre

I assume most key English players will be rested given most English team have not much to play for (Saracens already qualified and playing at home, Saints , tigers already out while Wasps are playing Zebre ...)

by TightHEAD Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:20 pm

Good time to play France 1st up at HQ imho.

by beshocked Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:19 am

whocares Don't see why Saracens would rest players when there is an opportunity to knock Toulon out of the competition. Unfortunately it's not a full strength side so will be easier said than done.

I would be disappointed if Sarries don't push for a home quarter final. Plus it's Toulon - if there's one side in Europe I find the most satisfaction in beating - it's them. Might even have neutrals cheering for Saracens for once.

by **LondonTiger** Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:57 am

Eddie Jones has announced his England squad ahead of the 2017 RBS 6 Nations.

The 34-man squad will train in Portugal between 22-27 January before assembling at Pennyhill Park to prepare for their opening match against France at Twickenham Stadium on Saturday 4 February (kick-off 4.50pm, live on ITV).

Jones has named three uncapped players in a squad made up of 20 forwards and 14 backs. Back-row forward Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers) is included alongside prop Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby) and back Alex Lozowski (Saracens)

“I’ve been impressed with the three uncapped players named in the squad," said Jones.

"They’re all guys who have great physical capabilities and they all have a desire to improve. With a number of injuries to some key players it’s a great opportunity for them."

There are also returns for James Haskell (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Jack Clifford (Harlequins) and Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs) who were unavailable for selection during the autumn.

“It’s good to welcome back a number of players who weren’t with us during the autumn," said Jones.

"This time last year I said that the long-term strategy for England is to develop a side who can be the most dominant team in world rugby. Obviously I’ve been pleased with how the team’s progressing, but there’s still plenty to improve on."

Backroom addition
Joining Jones’ backroom team will be visual awareness coach Dr Sherylle Calder, who will work with the team on a consultancy basis.

Dr Calder, who helps improve players’ peripheral vision, their reaction times and co-ordination, has been involved with two Rugby World Cup winning teams and has worked with a number of high-profile athletes across a multitude of different sports.
“2017 for us is about building really strong foundations for the team and making sure our fundamental skills are improving,” said Jones.

“Part of that is hand-eye co-ordination and our ability to handle the ball adroitly - Dr Sherylle Calder is an expert in that field.

“She has won two gold medals, 2003 with England and 2007 with South Africa, I used her extensively when I coached in Japan and had success with her then. I think she is really going to add an edge to the players’ preparation.”

England Senior 34–man squad for RBS 6 Nations

Forwards

Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby), Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Tommy Taylor (Wasps), Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints).

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

by propdavid_london Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:35 pm

What's the perception of the current French pack. Are they the massive lumbering units of the last few years? Or have they gone down the more mobile route?

I ask as I haven't seen as much T-14 rugby as I would have liked so aren't so sure on some of the newer selections.

Can England expect to have better fitness and athleticism? While at the same time risk getting blown off the park at breakdown?

Without the Vaunipolas will Englands physicality compete with the French?

by beshocked Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:57 pm

I think it depends what selections, Jones makes. I think England might be exposed if they pick players who are unfit/not match fit.

If Haskell is fit, Itoje replaces Robshaw in the backrow, England won't be losing any physicality. Itoje has a very high amount of turnovers which is why there's the call for him to be played at 6.

With Hughes at 8, England hopefully shouldn't be losing much physicality.

Of course I'd start George at hooker, Hartley will not be match fit, George is a big heavy hooker.

Mullan might well give England more ballast at scrum time even if he doesn't offer the same threat in the loose. If England bring Genge off the bench, they will have some impact hopefully.

As for the French surely it depends who they pick. They have the giant Atonio for example but from what I saw of him vs Australia his accuracy was lacking. They have some big men but technically I think England hold the advantage. Of course I am biased though.

I think it's difficult these days to physically overpower this England pack.

by No 7&1/2 Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:04 pm

If you're worried for Hartley s fitness do you go for Taylor on the bench?

by robbo277 Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:04 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:France haven't beaten England at Twickenham in the Six Nations since 2005 (they won there in 2007, but that was a World Cup warm-up game). They're due a win!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/international/4243757.stm

That's still more recent than Scotland's (1983) or Italy's (never) last Five/Six Nations win at Twickenham!

I'll be up there and I'm hoping England blow them away. Last year Jones was playing us down, but this year I think Jones will want England to prove a point as favourites and with bonus points coming into it, and set them out looking for a 5 point win, even if they concede some tries in the process.

I don't think we'll quite get a repeat of the 2015 game, but I reckon something like 35-20 to England. 4 tries to 2 and a few kicks here and there.

by Scottrf Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:07 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:If you're worried for Hartley s fitness do you go for Taylor on the bench?

Hartley hadn't played before the AIs I'm pretty sure. Can't see him being left out.

by No 7&1/2 Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:09 pm

Neither can I. Think he'll be picked just wondering if there's a question on his fitness enough for him not to start the same question extends to the risk of him having to come on straight away. If anything for me he comes in fresh.

by beshocked Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:13 pm

no 7 & 1/2 yes.

Scottrf so if a player is not match fit they should be fast tracked back into the starting lineup?

Seems illogical to me. I'd say send him back to his club to get some match fitness first. It's worrying if a player hasn't played a match for over a month.

Not sure why there is a desire to play people not match fit. It's a big risk.

by Scottrf Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:14 pm

beshocked wrote:Scottrf so if a player is not match fit they should be fast tracked back into the starting lineup?

Ask Eddie not me. I'm just pointing out his decision in a similar scenario.

by robbo277 Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:17 pm

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 yes.

Scottrf so if a player is not match fit they should be fast tracked back into the starting lineup?

Seems illogical to me. I'd say send him back to his club to get some match fitness first. It's worrying if a player hasn't played a match for over a month.

Not sure why there is a desire to play people not match fit. It's a big risk.

He's not been injured though. He's been training, he'll be sharp and he'll be chomping at the bit to get out there. The man has 78 England caps and he'll know how to get himself ready for the pressures of International rugby.

I think George is a fine player and his time will come. I just don't see Hartley missing out, nor do I have any concerns with him coming straight back into the starting line-up.

by No 7&1/2 Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:21 pm

This is the time he finally gets a red card isn't it!?

by beshocked Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:23 pm

robbo277 wrote:
beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 yes.

Scottrf so if a player is not match fit they should be fast tracked back into the starting lineup?

Seems illogical to me. I'd say send him back to his club to get some match fitness first. It's worrying if a player hasn't played a match for over a month.

Not sure why there is a desire to play people not match fit. It's a big risk.

He's not been injured though. He's been training, he'll be sharp and he'll be chomping at the bit to get out there. The man has 78 England caps and he'll know how to get himself ready for the pressures of International rugby.

I think George is a fine player and his time will come. I just don't see Hartley missing out, nor do I have any concerns with him coming straight back into the starting line-up.

Look we'll see. I just think it's a risk - coming into a game with no match practice. Perhaps you think it's fine. Fair enough - you are entitled to your opinion.

Let's hope he's not literally chomping at the bit, he hasn't bitten anyone in a while but you never know.

It's not the pressure, it's being up to speed. I know numerous posters think the training ground is the same as an actual match but I disagree.

by No 7&1/2 Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:25 pm

Dear god please read other people's comments before rehashing the tired misunderstanding of simple points from a year ago.

by Scottrf Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:28 pm

Being honest, he's not being picked over George for anything which relies on him being sharp or match fit. Leadership/throwing shouldn't be affected and it's hard to argue he offers much else George doesn't.

by **LondonTiger** Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:42 pm

Eddie Jones has made extremely clear how little he rates performances in the AP.

Most of us would have had Robson in the team in the Autumn, and in the squad now. Jones however having looked at him in training with the rest of the squad has disagreed. Whether we like it or not, coaches will always put an emphasis on what they see between players in raining as that is the only chance they ever get to make a direct comparison. We (usually) cannot see that so we have no way of understanding what they look at.

Personally I feel that:

a) There would be a big risk in going into the first game with too many forwards having played minimal rugby recently
b) Jones is actually preparing to phase Hartley out based on recent comments, just not yet.
c) Jones is a win the next game man with only a small eye on the future.

As keyboard warriors we are of course always right, because our theories will never actually be properly tested.

by beshocked Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:52 pm

Scottrf that's fair comment and I guess if Hartley does that it should be enough.

Londontiger

a) agree. Don't get me wrong of course it can work but it's a risk.
b) well I guess it depends how long he keeps adding value.
c) this is okay to a degree but I don't think there is anything wrong with a bit of planning for the future.

We aren't always right but there is generally some merit to what we say. Equally one must not always assume that the coaches are right, even if we are keyboard warriors.

by robbo277 Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:00 pm

beshocked wrote:
robbo277 wrote:
beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 yes.

Scottrf so if a player is not match fit they should be fast tracked back into the starting lineup?

Seems illogical to me. I'd say send him back to his club to get some match fitness first. It's worrying if a player hasn't played a match for over a month.

Not sure why there is a desire to play people not match fit. It's a big risk.

He's not been injured though. He's been training, he'll be sharp and he'll be chomping at the bit to get out there. The man has 78 England caps and he'll know how to get himself ready for the pressures of International rugby.

I think George is a fine player and his time will come. I just don't see Hartley missing out, nor do I have any concerns with him coming straight back into the starting line-up.

Look we'll see. I just think it's a risk - coming into a game with no match practice. Perhaps you think it's fine. Fair enough - you are entitled to your opinion.

Let's hope he's not literally chomping at the bit, he hasn't bitten anyone in a while but you never know.

It's not the pressure, it's being up to speed. I know numerous posters think the training ground is the same as an actual match but I disagree.

I think there's a definite difference between, say, a lower body injury which stops you running for a number of weeks and then you work your way back to fitness. If you don't play enough minutes, it's harder jump straight into an international game.

But Hartley was in fine condition and he's been able to continue training. Though I wouldn't recommend it, he's actually in a rare position where he can probably even increase his conditioning without being "hampered" by matches and the niggles he brings.

It isn't ideal for him not to be playing though, however I think given his experience and the fact that his conditioning will be right up there, he's less of a risk than Marler, Kruis and Haskell.

To be fair I don't think we'd lose anything by playing George ahead of him, but I think Jones will pick Hartley regardless of what he's been saying in the media, and I don't think he'll cost us a thing.

by beshocked Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:41 am

robbo277 you might well be right. We'll see. The coaches must be confident Hartley will deliver so he probably will. Of course they have all the analysis in front of them.

I am just glad that so far no one else seems to have got injured during the last round of European rugby.

As long as there aren't any brutal judo sessions perhaps we'll be okay....

by Gooseberry Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:43 pm

Point on Hartleys fitness....he was run through a session which is supposed to simulate the do demands of a game and cam through fine. His general fitness levels and injury status are better than they usually would be at this time of the season as he's been able to train intensively.

The only thing he may lack is match sharpness.

The real risk comes from whether you believe he's a liability and whether you believe he's a better player than George or not.

No doubt people will point to him getting subbed at 68 minutes as a sign he wasn't fit ...forgetting that it happens pretty much every game.

If as he's said in the media recently Jones thinks there's a lack of leaders and gobshites in the team them it's no great surprise he wants his Captain back.

by majesticimperialman Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:41 pm

Hartley last year being England Captain did not put a foot wrong ( get carded for a foul tackle )what makes any one think he will get carded this year.

If on the other hand he does get carded and ( or red carded ) who would take over as England Captain? that would be interesting to know. Would Farrell take over? Or would it fall to some one like Mike Brown. Tom Wood.
Any one know who it would/could be?

by lostinwales Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:45 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Hartley last year being England Captain did not put a foot wrong ( get carded for a foul tackle )what makes any one think he will get carded this year.

If on the other hand he does get carded and ( or red carded ) who would take over as England Captain? that would be interesting to know. Would Farrell take over? Or would it fall to some one like Mike Brown. Tom Wood.
Any one know who it would/could be?

I believe (for better or for worse) the next in line is Farrell. As we are constantly being told he's a hot head too....

by majesticimperialman Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:20 pm

Any one any idea when the teams will be anounced for this game?

by nlpnlp Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:27 pm

I would guess Thursday next week - although one or two of the papers seem to be able to predict the team a day or so earlier. However, I would say most of us could guess 12 or 13 of the line up. Only issues seem to be fitness of Haskell.

by Geordie Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:27 pm

Yeah with regards to Hartley I thin 2 things put him in the side.

1) Jones wanted a side where "initially" each position in the pack did the basics for that role. Before people point to 7...its still clear he sees that as a specific role. He played it the same as he did with Japan...a bruiser at 7.

With that in mind...Hartley was deemed the one who performed the basic Hooker skills the best..ie Scrumming, Hooking, Lineout, tackling and rucking.

This also...coincided with:

2) the fact we have few actual leaders in the still very young side / squad.
Haskell - Captained his club for one season
Itoje - U20 winning captain - Will be captain eventually, but still learning his game
Wood - Not inspiring
Hartley - Huge experience
Clifford - U20 Winning captain - Not a starter and still learning
Launchbury - Captain this season at club..but not guaranteed starter....

George should be the starting hooker...and will be soon...but only when a few of the youngsters begin to develop that side of their game. We need more "squad" leaders like Brown. Not going to be a captain, but an experienced vocal member. We need Watson, Nowell, Billy V, Kruis, May, Youngs etc to really take on those roles...

by lostinwales Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:02 pm

Watson potentially out with a hamstring strain
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38777814

by robbo277 Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:05 pm

Watson definitely out of the opener now. Makes back 3 selection a lot simpler, but sure Eddie Jones will have everything crossed he doesn't lose many more next week.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:24 am

Shame about Watson, I'd still like to see him at FB at some point.

by Poorfour Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:34 am

News over the weekend that Marler has somehow recovered from his broken leg in only 3 weeks (I suspect because if it was a stress fracture it may have been healing already when they picked it up) and took part in full training on Friday.

That's a big boost for the pack. Mullan is a decent player but I'd have been nervous about starting a game with him and Genge on the bench.

by propdavid_london Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:42 am

Good news for Marler, although he hasn't exactly in form at the moment! I would still prefer to start the player that's fully match fit - although that is the same debate re: Hartley-George

by majesticimperialman Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:15 am

It is a shame about Watson being injured. It is shame when any player gets injured, but this close to an international game, it is even worse. But then again Eddie Jones will have player/s all ready in place incase of any thing like this happening. i wish him a speedy recovery.

Gpood news though if Marler is fit to play against France. It will be a tough game France have not won at twickenham for a long time and they will be out to change that.

by propdavid_london Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:19 am

So, makes selection a bit easier - Nowell and May to start with Yarde possibly on the bench.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:32 am

propdavid_london wrote:So, makes selection a bit easier - Nowell and May to start with Yarde possibly on the bench.

Daly would perhaps be more likely, since he was named by Jones as a player who could cover full back too (as well as outside centre)

by propdavid_london Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:35 am

True, but that wing experiment with Daly didn't go too well! Agree that the Daly selection does allow EJ to select an extra forward if he wants to - depending on what kind of game he wants to play against the French.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:35 am

Daly looked pretty good on the wing from what I remember.

by beshocked Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:37 am

Fortunately Road runner had a good AIs.

If Marler isn't fully fit he shouldn't start. Same with Kruis. Put them on the bench if need be. No need to rush players back.

by propdavid_london Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:39 am

But aw we are also quite sort on back row cover too!

Perhaps the bench composition might look something like this -
Marler/Mullan, George, Sinkler, Launchbury, Clifford, Daly, Care, Yarde

Could drop in a Harrison for Clifford.
Maybe there is a role for Lozowski (although really covers 10 and 15)

by Poorfour Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:47 am

propdavid_london wrote:But aw we are also quite sort on back row cover too!

Perhaps the bench composition might look something like this -
Marler/Mullan, George, Sinkler, Launchbury, Clifford, Daly, Care, Yarde

Could drop in a Harrison for Clifford.
Maybe there is a role for Lozowski (although really covers 10 and 15)

I think Harrison either starts or isn't in the 23 - Clifford is a more useful bench player as he covers the back row and his speed is useful late in the game.

Likewise, I think Daly is a better option than Lozowski because he covers more positions, unless we don't have Ford and Farrell starting -then we'd need Lozowski as fly half cover. Or Lozowski might come in for Yarde, though Eddie seems to like his enthusiasm and physicality.

As for Marler, I didn't think there was much issue with his personal form before his injury (especially considering he had probably been playing with the stress fracture for the last couple of weeks before his break), and he won't have lost much fitness in 3 weeks off. To be back in full contact on Friday he will have been doing non-contact training during the week, so he's effectively had two weeks' rest.

by beshocked Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:05 am

If it's Yarde vs Lozowski - I would pick Lozowski, no it's not because he's a Saracen. I just don't rate Yarde particularly highly. Think he's overrated.

If it's Daly vs Lozowski - I'd probably pick Daly because of his versatility off the bench.

Lozowski doesn't lack in physicality poorfour, he's a robust tackler. I've been impressed by that part of his game.

He was also able to get almost straight up from a smashing from basteraud.

I don't really see Yarde as physical. Perhaps it's the games I've seen him in, he seems to have been ineffectual or struggled to make an impact.

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