6N 2017: Scotland vs Wales, 25th Feb

First topic message reminder :

Scotland vs Wales


Date: Saturday 25th February 2017
Venue: BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick Off: 2:25pm
Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)
TV Coverage: Live on BBC

Weather Update


Teams

Scotland

1. Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors)
2. Faiser Brown (Glasgow Warriors)
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors)
4. Richie Gray (Toulouse)
5. Johnny Gray (Glasgow Warriors)
6. John Barclay (C) (Scarlets)
7. John Hardie (Edinburgh)
8. Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors)

9. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors)
10. Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors)
11. Tim Visser (Harlequins)
12. Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors)
13. Huw Jones (Stormers)
14. Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors)
15. Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors)

Replacements

16 Ross Ford (Edinburgh)
17 Allan Dell (Edinburgh)
18 Simon Berghan (Edinburgh)
19 Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors)
20 Hamish Watson (Edinburgh)
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors)
22 Duncan Weir (Edinburgh)
23 Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors)


Wales

1 Rob Evans (Scarlets)
2 Ken Owens (Scarlets)
3 Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs)
4 Jake Ball (Scarlets)
5 Alun Wyn Jones (C) (Ospreys)
6 Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues)
7 Justin Tipuric (Ospreys)
8 Ross Moriarty (Gloucester)

9 Rhys Webb (Ospreys)
10 Dan Biggar (Ospreys)
11 Liam Williams (Scarlets)
12 Scott Williams (Scarlets)
13 Jonathan Davies (Scarlets)
14 George North (Northampton)
15 Leigh Halfpenny (Toulon)

Replacements

16 Scott Baldwin (Ospreys)
17 Nicky Smith (Ospreys)
18 Samson Lee (Scarlets)
19 Luke Charteris (Bath)
20 Taulupe Faletau (Dragons)
21 Gareth Davies (Scarlets)
22 Sam Davies (Ospreys)
23 Jamie Roberts (Harlequins)

Skippers job is to lead the team. WIn the game first by taking available points not gambling because just like v Eng, Wales dont make their gambles pay out. Biggar is a whining gob Poopie who was in the wilderness for a long time and no one could figure it out, now we know why he was such a reluctant pick by Gatland. He's like a high strung teenager and literally has tantrums on the pitch.

Some of the flack the Welsh boys are getting from Welsh fans is way OTT, if truth be known there is very little difference between Wales, Scotland, Ireland or France at the moment and home advantage is the most likely way for matches to go.
To many fans in Wales still see the team as supposed world beaters but in honesty this has never been the case, even in the much lauded 70's, what we have is a good quality base of players to select from but a very narrow minded coaching set up that refuse to try out new players when the opportunities dictate.

So for all the "fans" that want to berate certain players, try to remember that Scotland Also beat Ireland at home a few weeks back and were unlucky to lose to France away last time out, France who incidentally just lost in Ireland.

123456789 wrote:

robbo277 wrote:Its not just the Triple crown, Calcutta cup and England's record, it's Scotland's shot at the Championship. Scotland win and they're still in the hunt, with just a game against Italy to go to try to max out on bonus points and points difference. With this Scotland team at home, big points are definitely a possibility.

Realistically it will be very difficult for Scotland to win the Six Nations unless they beat England by more than 7 points, if they're top at the end of Round 4 I'd say it's one hand on the trophy. Within one point of the top and we can dare to dream but the truth is England are the best team in Europe, the second best in the world. We haven't beaten them since 2008, we haven't beaten them at Twickenham since 1983. A win in Round 4 would be Scotland's best result since 1990.

All correct. Let's not do the Scottish thing of disappearing up our own arse just yet. 

Watched the whole game now. 

I really don't understand how Wales could have fallen away in the second half like that. They will feel that it's one of those halves where everything just went against them. What should be a worry is that a team with 300 caps more than their opposition didn't seem to be calm or be able to change their gameplan. There were only 3 scrums in the whole of the first half I believe - Scotland won a penalty, Wales won a penalty and in the third, the ball was shipped out. However, with the quality of the players that they have - that unwinding really shouldn't have happened. 

I asked a mate from Ponty about what HowlerBall was. He replied "Well, it's like Warrenball. Except that when the game ends, we don't win."

Now that the tournament has slipped away from Wales, I just hope that some of the youngfellers like S Davies and Giles are given a chance to run out. Why wouldn't you do that if you're Howley? What have you got to lose?

Now that the tournament has slipped away from Wales, I just hope that some of the youngfellers like S Davies and Giles are given a chance to run out. Why wouldn't you do that if you're Howley? What have you got to lose?


His job.
But in all honesty, i cannot see him doing that.

What is the point, they cannot win. So in Howley's mind if he does give the young players a chance. it will be like addmiting he was wrong. Too little to late.

123456789 wrote:

robbo277 wrote:Its not just the Triple crown, Calcutta cup and England's record, it's Scotland's shot at the Championship. Scotland win and they're still in the hunt, with just a game against Italy to go to try to max out on bonus points and points difference. With this Scotland team at home, big points are definitely a possibility.

Realistically it will be very difficult for Scotland to win the Six Nations unless they beat England by more than 7 points, if they're top at the end of Round 4 I'd say it's one hand on the trophy. Within one point of the top and we can dare to dream but the truth is England are the best team in Europe, the second best in the world. We haven't beaten them since 2008, we haven't beaten them at Twickenham since 1983. A win in Round 4 would be Scotland's best result since 1990.

Well the simple equation is a loss or even a draw will probably see you out of the running, so it's win to stay alive, rather than win to win the Championship.

If Wales vs Ireland and Ireland vs England go with the home side, then a Scotland win over England would give Scotland the Championship (assuming Scotland beat Italy as well) without the need to tot up bonus points, so if Ireland lose on Friday, any win for Scotland may do.

If it comes down to bonus points, assuming Scotland get the bog standard 4-1 win and then 5 points against Italy, unless England get a try bonus against Ireland, or Ireland win their last two with one try bonus, Scotland and the team tied with them will be on 18 points. Then it will come down to points difference and with Italy to come on the last day, Scotland will know they just have to put a hat-full on them to maximise their chances.

It'd be a huge result in its own right if Scotland beat England, however I'm sure they won't be thinking about England and their record, but the Championship.

Robbo, that's all really very interesting but completely academic.

At the moment Scotland are playing as well as they have for dome time AND winning against good opposition.

We're going to Twickenham and will probably come second, but we do have a chance to win there. If, and it's a mighty big if, we do then the Italy game can go fecc itself. The championship can go fecc itself.

Winning the Triple Crown at Twickers would be enough in itself. The world would stop turning on its axis, Donald Trump would start making sense and Mahatma Ghandi would become honorary President of UKIP.

Oh and I might actually buy a round to celebrate.

p.s. Tim Visser

George Carlin wrote:

123456789 wrote:

robbo277 wrote:Its not just the Triple crown, Calcutta cup and England's record, it's Scotland's shot at the Championship. Scotland win and they're still in the hunt, with just a game against Italy to go to try to max out on bonus points and points difference. With this Scotland team at home, big points are definitely a possibility.

Realistically it will be very difficult for Scotland to win the Six Nations unless they beat England by more than 7 points, if they're top at the end of Round 4 I'd say it's one hand on the trophy. Within one point of the top and we can dare to dream but the truth is England are the best team in Europe, the second best in the world. We haven't beaten them since 2008, we haven't beaten them at Twickenham since 1983. A win in Round 4 would be Scotland's best result since 1990.

All correct. Let's not do the Scottish thing of disappearing up our own arse just yet. 

Watched the whole game now. 

I really don't understand how Wales could have fallen away in the second half like that. They will feel that it's one of those halves where everything just went against them. What should be a worry is that a team with 300 caps more than their opposition didn't seem to be calm or be able to change their gameplan. There were only 3 scrums in the whole of the first half I believe - Scotland won a penalty, Wales won a penalty and in the third, the ball was shipped out. However, with the quality of the players that they have - that unwinding really shouldn't have happened. 

I asked a mate from Ponty about what HowlerBall was. He replied "Well, it's like Warrenball. Except that when the game ends, we don't win."

Now that the tournament has slipped away from Wales, I just hope that some of the youngfellers like S Davies and Giles are given a chance to run out. Why wouldn't you do that if you're Howley? What have you got to lose?

It's wrong to think Howley is the sole problem in the Welsh coaching setup.The problems are at least as great with McBryde,Jenkins and Edwards-all of whose coaching credentials are threadbare and classic examples of players who don't transfer successfully into the coaching arena.The problem is increased by the reluctance of some influential parts of the Welsh media and some former internationals to state the obvious when it comes to Wales coaching,results and style of play.The WRU appear unconcerned because they fill the Principality Stadium more often than not at high prices and merchandise sales are holding up.

Rumours persist that the players/coaches relationship took a turn for the worst with the treatment of Hibbard,Hook,Phillips,Priestland and Adam Jones.The Vale is not a happy camp by all accounts and players of international calibre know full well when their coaches aren't up to the task.

Leaving aside the summer tour,Wales' next opponents are Ireland,France,Georgia,SA,Aus and NZ.The future of 2017 for us looks bleak even without the gross embarrassment of Wendyball behaviour by far too many Welsh players.To end,it's remarkable that Rob Howley,who carries an aura of failure,wanted Townsend as HIS assistant on the Lions tour.You have to laugh.This weekend will only get better if the O's beat Glasgow today.If not,i'll have to wait for Scrum V to hear how unlucky we were to lose to the incomparably better team yesterday.I'm waiting to hear that line 'We'll learn from the experience and the players will have the opportunity to put things right in a fortnight'.

I think the Welsh coaching set-up may have reached their shelf-life. Nothing wrong with them as coaches, but they're coming up 10 years in their roles and fresh voices and a fresh outlook may be necessary. Having won 3 Championships (and 2 Grand Slams) in 6 tournaments between 2008 and 2013, this will be Wales fourth tournament without silverware, and wins against the Southern Hemisphere teams still aren't materialising.

Too hungover to read all of the posts, but just to reiterate: well done Scotland. You absolutely d*cked us. Fully deserved win


Wales: p*ss poor. Everything went wrong. We tried to force it too much (offloads, etc). One word comes to mind: gash.

Rewatching it now. Watson had an unbelievable game.

Playing these songs on repeat this morning

Wow one loss to us and you are going all morrisey on us!!! Scotland have been in the doldrums for the last 15 years! These things are cyclical. You'll have your mojo back soon

I'm not sure that Howley was watching the same game as the rest of us:
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/full-rob-howley-qa-believe-12657936

This quote a winner in particular:

A worryingly deluded man wrote:But in the areas that matter, Scotland just edged it in the second half. In the first half, with how dominant we were, we were very comfortable.

We scored points in the 1st half, Wales scored nothing in the 2nd. Wales never looked "comfortable" at any point in the game. Howley I think has to be reminded that Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

Also Visser, I have to take back some of the things I've said about him. Cotter now has a selection dilemma if Maitland is fit for the England game. He had a stormer. Since when was he so good in the air?

George Carlin wrote:I'm not sure that Howley was watching the same game as the rest of us:
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/full-rob-howley-qa-believe-12657936

This quote a winner in particular:

A worryingly deluded man wrote:But in the areas that matter, Scotland just edged it in the second half. In the first half, with how dominant we were, we were very comfortable.

What a tool! Howley, hang your head in shame.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Wow one loss to us and you are going all morrisey on us!!! Scotland have been in the doldrums for the last 15 years! These things are cyclical. You'll have your mojo back soon

Given all the oui oui we've dished out to the Scots the past 10 years it's only right we suck up the oui oui in return. However,an empathetic scottish rugby man summed up best for me last night over our nth pint of heavy when he compared your Matt Williams with our Rob Howley.To quote 'they both talk the talk and walk the walk but in practice can do neither'.It was a bit more cryptic than that but you get the drift.We're as low now as Scotland were under MW.The SRU did something about it,the WRU will not.

Griff wrote:

George Carlin wrote:I'm not sure that Howley was watching the same game as the rest of us:
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/full-rob-howley-qa-believe-12657936

This quote a winner in particular:

A worryingly deluded man wrote:But in the areas that matter, Scotland just edged it in the second half. In the first half, with how dominant we were, we were very comfortable.

What a tool! Howley, hang your head in shame.

...but not dominant on the scoreboard which is where it matters most. I've read the BBC article which quoted Howley - it'll be the same 23 for the Ireland game.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote:

George Carlin wrote:I'm not sure that Howley was watching the same game as the rest of us:
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/full-rob-howley-qa-believe-12657936

This quote a winner in particular:

A worryingly deluded man wrote:But in the areas that matter, Scotland just edged it in the second half. In the first half, with how dominant we were, we were very comfortable.

What a tool! Howley, hang your head in shame.

...but not dominant on the scoreboard which is where it matters most. I've read the BBC article which quoted Howley - it'll be the same 23 for the Ireland game.

Don't care as i've managed to sell my tickets on Seatview.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote:

George Carlin wrote:I'm not sure that Howley was watching the same game as the rest of us:
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/full-rob-howley-qa-believe-12657936

This quote a winner in particular:

A worryingly deluded man wrote:But in the areas that matter, Scotland just edged it in the second half. In the first half, with how dominant we were, we were very comfortable.

What a tool! Howley, hang your head in shame.

...but not dominant on the scoreboard which is where it matters most. I've read the BBC article which quoted Howley - it'll be the same 23 for the Ireland game.

Not dominant, period. The only thing we dominated was the taxi home.

They should have walked back home... I thought we were dominant at the breakdown and in the collisions in the first half too, but weren't good enough to translate our advantage into enough points. Fair play to Scotland as I didn't expect that fight back. Scotland for the 6N?

The good

- we won!!!
- we scored 2 really good tries. Patient build up and real class to finish them off
- we comprehensively won the aerial battle. When's the last time we could say that about anyone never mind Wales?? I'm absolutely delighted we didn't have to witness Biggar claiming his own up and under once again!
- the lineout functioned incredibly well
- Hamish Watson was a turnover king

The bad

- we were completely lacking energy and cutting edge in the first half. Wales should really have been out of sight
- we were 2nd best in physicality for a lot of the game, especially the first half. If we're going to compete with England we need to be a lot more physical in the tackle and around the breakdown
- I'm still not convinced by our centre pairing with Huw Jones being quiet all 6N. They are both strong defensively and Jones should get better with more match fitness.

All in all I'd give us s 7.5 out of 10 - which is very encouraging given how comprehensive the win was

Well done Scotland. Scotland for the 6 Nations!

John Hardie ruled out for the rest of the tournament. Starting to run out of backrow players!

Congrats Scotland. It's amazing the transformation that having players like Russell and Hogg has made - for years you've been at least competitive if not dominant up front but had an amazing level of incompetence at converting possession and position into points (something Wales fans are starting to learn about), and now you've a team that is almost Australia-esque in the ability to convert even half-chances.

Certainly sets up the match at Twickenham - Still think at home we should have too much quality and nous, but I'm not saying that with great confidence...

The back row that finished the game against Wales did a great job. I'd happily see Watson, Barclay and Wilson line up for us at Twickenham with Dozer on the bench who is current playing very well for bath in the number 7 jersey!

Griff wrote:Playing these songs on repeat this morning

Unfortunately, those two are damn good songs though, Griff. So I have to admit, I kinda smile on listening to them.

dummy_half wrote:Congrats Scotland. It's amazing the transformation that having players like Russell and Hogg has made - for years you've been at least competitive if not dominant up front but had an amazing level of incompetence at converting possession and position into points (something Wales fans are starting to learn about), and now you've a team that is almost Australia-esque in the ability to convert even half-chances.

Certainly sets up the match at Twickenham - Still think at home we should have too much quality and nous, but I'm not saying that with great confidence...

I have absolute confidence that England will beat Scotland, based on history and current form. One day my confidence will be misplaced, but right now we have a lot to be confident about. Not saying its going to be easy though....

Any concern in Scotland fans about Barclay's post match interview? For me he couldn't have more clearly said he didn't think they could beat England.

That's not what he said. He said :

“We believe we can do something with this group and we are not just saying that. We have come here and recovered from a poor first half to build a nice score and beat a very good Welsh side.

“I am not going to make any big predictions but we have beaten Ireland who are a very good team and we have beaten Wales who are a very good team too so we go to England for the next game. As a group, if we work hard, we genuinely believe we can win games.

“We believe (we can beat England) yes.

“We will have a look at them, if we play well we can. If we play like we did in the first half or against France we will have no chance.”

The game will take care of itself as they do.  Scotland are good enough to not really matter what Barclay thinks.  Wales weren't offered much hope during the World Cup.  Even if it's a point - it's a win.

Yes, England look dominant, confident and very very good, but a white flag today (or yesterday) is a little early for a game that takes place in two weeks.

Italy on the other hand... well I think they are at such a level that I feel O'Shea should tell them straight they are not going to win, shouldn't be thinking of a win but should only be prepared to practice the idea of never lying down.  Don't worry about the score but simply practice mentally resetting each and every time England do score.  For Italy, today's game is high grade training on the philosophy of keeping going, keeping shape.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:That's not what he said. He said :

“We believe we can do something with this group and we are not just saying that. We have come here and recovered from a poor first half to build a nice score and beat a very good Welsh side.

“I am not going to make any big predictions but we have beaten Ireland who are a very good team and we have beaten Wales who are a very good team too so we go to England for the next game. As a group, if we work hard, we genuinely believe we can win games.

“We believe (we can beat England) yes.

“We will have a look at them, if we play well we can. If we play like we did in the first half or against France we will have no chance.”

His confidence clearly changed a lot and he was far more hesitant once England were mentioned. Almost sheepish. Just IMO of course, I thought it was noteworthy.

Scottrf wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:That's not what he said. He said :

“We believe we can do something with this group and we are not just saying that. We have come here and recovered from a poor first half to build a nice score and beat a very good Welsh side.

“I am not going to make any big predictions but we have beaten Ireland who are a very good team and we have beaten Wales who are a very good team too so we go to England for the next game. As a group, if we work hard, we genuinely believe we can win games.

“We believe (we can beat England) yes.

“We will have a look at them, if we play well we can. If we play like we did in the first half or against France we will have no chance.”

His confidence clearly changed a lot and he was far more hesitant once England were mentioned. Almost sheepish. Just IMO of course, I thought it was noteworthy.

My own feeling is that, old pro that he is, he didn't want to say anything which could be pinned up on the English dressing room door. It would have been very easy to say "Bring them on , we'll hammer them" . But that would have been manna from heaven for Eddie Jones. I think Barcs was being circumspect rather than scared.

The welsh pack were brilliant. The welsh backs have got nothing to scare anyone. No creativity and unable to score tries. The Scottish backs, particularly Hogg and Visser were brilliant. The Scottish pack is only just competitive at this level. England will have to play well to beat the Scots though. That's for sure.

RDW_Scotland wrote:John Hardie ruled out for the rest of the tournament. Starting to run out of backrow players!

Not short of quality opensides though. You need a few ball carriers to really take the pack forward. I think it is time to look at Bradbury. He offers a lot more than Wilson.

As one of Wilson's biggest critics I think it is fair to say Wilson will start against England and deservedly so.

We do need some bulk on the bench though and Denton may end up with a call-up

When someone starts an England vs Scotland thread it must contain the phrases "bags of money, bags of this and bags of that"

I have been a huge critic of Wilson, and continue to be so to some degree. He offers absolutely zero ball carrying threat. None. Throughout this championship I have been worried about our physicality in the BR, even before Strauss was injured. However, the BR are operating as a really efficient unit, we are quick and accurate at the breakdown and have rucked with real tenacity. This has allowed us to build phases slowly, and chip our way forward - it's negated the need for a huge BR to make busts through tackles. Wilson also had two really exceptional moments, his take off the long line out throw and the way he picked up from the base of a rapidly retreating scrum. I still don't think he is the long term solution, but he is proving himself to be effective for the way BVC has set up the team.

For so many years he's always talked Scotland up, and they always fell flat on their faces and let him down... But look at him now...

EST wrote:I have been a huge critic of Wilson, and continue to be so to some degree.  He offers absolutely zero ball carrying threat. None.  Throughout this championship I have been worried about our physicality in the BR, even before Strauss was injured.  However, the BR  are operating as a really efficient unit, we are quick and accurate at the breakdown and have rucked with real tenacity.  This has allowed us to build phases slowly, and chip our way forward - it's negated the need for a huge BR to make busts through tackles.  Wilson also had two really exceptional moments, his take off the long line out throw and the way he picked up from the base of a rapidly retreating scrum.  I still don't think he is the long term solution, but he is proving himself to be effective for the way BVC has set up the team.

It'll be interesting to see if Denton is brought back into the fold for England, I'd quite like to see him on the bench for the last twenty or so with a view to him starting against Italy. I think we can give England a fright, their greatest strength is Eddie Jones. They seem braindead on the pitch whereas with Russell, Hogg, Barclay etc. we have decision makers all over the pitch. They have far more power and are better individually just about but I think if we play clever then we could have them.

I think a major issue for Scotland is that they might allow themselves to be charged up to engage in an open running game with England.  Even with an opportunist like Hogg and with a few very sharp and fast boys there, I think if Scotland try to outplay England at that stuff then they'll come out the worst if the game becomes too loose and counter-attack reactionary.

I think Scotland would be best prepare for a hard day at the office at the breakdown area and slow the feck that English ball/game up - and target ...legally.... whichever of those two English 9s that turn up.  They're the ones that create the panic moments when they get firing.  That's a rhythm that's difficult to stop when it starts.

It's OK lads I've had a great idea about not competing at the breakdown and hanging about on the wrong side of rucks...

Don't try that! That's illegal in England!

RDW_Scotland wrote:It's OK lads I've had a great idea about not competing at the breakdown and hanging about on the wrong side of rucks...

You mean offside like Finley Calder back in the day, or maybe your typical Scottish centre in the 80's and 90's?

Joking aside it has shown if we want to beat England we need to mix things up and throw in some surprises to make them have to think on their feet - something they're obviously not very good at!

Shifty wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:It's OK lads I've had a great idea about not competing at the breakdown and hanging about on the wrong side of rucks...

You mean offside like Finley Calder back in the day, or maybe your typical Scottish centre in the 80's and 90's?

Way before my time - that joke has gone way over my head!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Shifty wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:It's OK lads I've had a great idea about not competing at the breakdown and hanging about on the wrong side of rucks...

You mean offside like Finley Calder back in the day, or maybe your typical Scottish centre in the 80's and 90's?

Way before my time - that joke has gone way over my head!

You don't know what you missed.

Finley Calder and John Jeffrey were apparently born offside!

I do feel like my generation has had meagre pickings supporting Scotland. I went to the 1999 victory parade but most of my rugby memories have basically been the entire 6N era - not much to cheer about!

Yet...

Anyone see Eddie Jones saying we will be under pressure at Twickenham. What is that man on?

RDW_Scotland wrote:I do feel like my generation has had meagre pickings supporting Scotland. I went to the 1999 victory parade but most of my rugby memories have basically been the entire 6N era - not much to cheer about!

Yet...

Yes I can believe that it is hard for the youngsters to actually believe that we were a decent rugby nation once upon a time and used to win most of our home games.

No matter how we try to spin it, we have been pretty cr*p for the past 20 years or so but that just makers it so much sweeter to finally see us starting to play some great rugby at club and international level.

Due to the past 20 years I remain fairly grounded and don't ever see us being the best team in the world. I do see us as being genuinely competitive now though and see no reason why we should not win as many as we lose. Even on TV you could just feel the atmosphere at Murrayfield building in a way that it has not done for years, a crowd that has suddenly been aroused from its slumber. It has not always been quiet there believe me. I was there in 1990 for the Grand Slam game and it was a cacophony.

The team have an expectation to live up to now. I hope and believe that they can fulfil that.