6N 2017: England vs Scotland

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ENGLAND v SCOTLAND
Saturday 10th March
16:00 GMT
Twickenham Stadium

Live on ITV, RTE, FR2, DMAX

Referee - Matthieu Raynal
AR1 - Romain Poite
AR2 - Marius Mitrea
TMO - Ben Skeen

A. Head to Head

134 Played 134
74 Won 42
18 Drawn 18
42 Lost 74
1,562 Points 1,141

B. Recent Form

6 February 2016
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
9 – 15 to England

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

4 February 2012
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 13 to England

C. Teams

ENGLAND


Starting XV:

15. Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 58 caps), 14. Jack Nowell  (Exeter Chiefs, 21 caps), 13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 31 caps), 12. Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 50 caps), 11. Elliot Daly (Wasps, 11 caps), 10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 33 caps), 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 68 caps), 1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 49 caps), 2. Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 82 caps), 3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 72 caps), 4. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 40 caps) , 5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 56 caps), 6. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 10 caps), 7. James Haskell (Wasps, 73 caps) , 8. Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 6 caps).

Finishers

16. Jamie George (Saracens, 15 caps), 17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 40 caps), 18. Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 6 caps), 19. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 48 caps), 20. Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens 32 caps), 21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 69 caps), 22. Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 6 caps), 23. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 24 caps).

SCOTLAND


Starting XV

15. Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) – 51 caps; 16 tries, 3 pens, 89 points
14. Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) – 34 caps; 15 tries, 75 points
13. Huw Jones (Stormers) – 6 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
12. Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors) – 22 caps; 6 tries, 30 points
11. Tim Visser (Harlequins) – 29 caps; 12 tries, 60 points
10. Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors) – 25 caps; 2 tries, 5 cons, 8 pens, 44 points
9. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) – 3 caps

1. Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors) – 22 caps
2. Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors) – 23 caps
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – 7 caps
4. Richie Gray (Toulouse) – 63 caps; 3 tries, 15 points
5. Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) – 31 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
6. John Barclay CAPTAIN (Scarlets) – 58 caps; 4 tries, 20 points
7. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby) – 8 caps; 1 try, 5 points
8. Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) – 25 caps

Substitutes:
16. Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) – 105 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
17. Allan Dell (Edinburgh Rugby) – 6 caps
18. Simon Berghan (Edinburgh Rugby) – 1 cap
19. Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) – 27 caps; 1 try, 5 points
20. Cornell Du Preez (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped
21. Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps; 4 tries, 3 pens, 29 points
22. Duncan Weir (Edinburgh Rugby) – 25 caps; 2 tries, 7 cons, 10 pens, 1 drop, 57 points
23. Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps; 6 tries, 30 points

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Imagine how good we'd be if we put an 80 min performance in

I think you really should look into that seriously.  It is an issue.  Eddie should be very concerned with getting that right.  Might I suggest that when the 6N is over and you all have time on your hands, Eddie should sit down and begin an examination of things he needs to do to get the 80 minute game up and running.  Yes indeed, the best time will be after the 6N.....

GeordieFalcon wrote:...It makes me wonder just how physical Kruis and Billy must be...

...or how smart Robshaw must be in cleaning up when the pack plays a bum note.

VERY valid point RF!!

England aren't the only ones in that camp, SF. Scotland, as has been pointed out, have played celestial rugby in two separate halves of two games and haven't touched those heights the rest of the time; we (Ireland) have come to the party twenty minutes to half an hour late in two games; consistency has been the problem during this 6N competition, which is why, tight and absorbing though it's been throughout, I wouldn't give it above a B for overall standard at this stage.

Thinking beyond the Northern hemisphere, New Zealand (and quite possibly Australia too) are not beaten by a single half, or even sixty minutes, of top-class rugby. It has to be all eighty, which Ireland managed in Chicago and England in certain games during 2016. If any of Scotland, England and Ireland can discover that consistency during the last two rounds, theirs will be the Earth and everything in it....[apart from Auckland, Dunedin, Wellington etc.}

Its not quite fair. When we have sparked into life we have been absolutely lethal. Its just that we haven't been 'sparking' too often - or have been leaving it very late to do so.

I agree - but we need to pull on our big boy pants straight from the off for this game, the Scots are a well balanced team with some good strike runners, we are going to need intensity and accuracy from the start to the end.

Triple Crown and Calcutta cup on the line here - send those pesky Scots home to think again angsting about 'what might have been'.

It'll not shut Telfer up though (bless him)

TrailApe wrote:

Its not quite fair. When we have sparked into life we have been absolutely lethal. Its just that we haven't been 'sparking' too often - or have been leaving it very late to do so.

I agree - but we need to pull on our big boy pants straight from the off for this game, the Scots are a well balanced team with some good strike runners, we are going to need intensity and accuracy from the start to the end.

Triple Crown and Calcutta cup on the line here - send those pesky Scots home to think again angsting about 'what might have been'.

It'll not shut Telfer up though (bless him)

You have Jones! We need Telfer to throw the pipe bombs because big VC gives nothing away!

Well, any talk of Scotland being favourites for this one needs to be quickly ignored.  We have been good in patches this tournament, the first half against Ireland and the second half against Wales, however in all of the games so far we have been physically overpowered, which ultimately proved our undoing against the French.

England are probably the most relentlessly physical team in the tournament, Haskell and Itoje et al will be blasting through the contact and the breakdown, it remains to be seen if we can deal with that.

What does give me confidence is that we have gone behind in games, but never buckled completely.  Our forwards aren't the biggest, but I'd wager we have been the most accurate and efficient around the breakdown.  Coupled to that we have a dangerous backline who are becoming ruthless when presented with the slightest opportunity.  Yes, Russell is inconsistent and makes mistakes, but he is also absolutely crucial in how we play - he also showed that he is getting there with his game management , he was a lot better in this regard on the weekend.  People forget, but he wasn't brought up within the Scottish academy system until relatively late on in his career, I think he probably only has 100 or so pro games under his belt, he is learning on the job and will get better. (Edit - he has 84)

If we can survive the initial English onslaught, we have a chance.  A slim chance, but a chance all the same.

I'd go the other way about, EST - it's the Scots who need to mount an initial onslaught and catch England cold. France sort of did and couldn't build up a big enough lead, England didn't turn up for the first half v Italy and were second best for long stretches against Wales, so they do seem vulnerable this year against an early barrage. if England are ahead or even fractionally behind after 60, can only think that that they'll wear the Scots down and possibly even run away with it. Apart from the massive plus of playing Scotland at Twickenham, the one thing that is clearly in England's favour is the strength of their bench as compared with Scotland's.

captain carrantuohil wrote:I'd go the other way about, EST - it's the Scots who need to mount an initial onslaught and catch England cold. France sort of did and couldn't build up a big enough lead, England didn't turn up for the first half v Italy and were second best for long stretches against Wales, so they do seem vulnerable this year against an early barrage. if England are ahead or even fractionally behind after 60, can only think that that they'll wear the Scots down and possibly even run away with it. Apart from the massive plus of playing Scotland at Twickenham, the one thing that is clearly in England's favour is the strength of their bench as compared with Scotland's.

Interesting way to look at it CC. To my mind, and especially after the last weekend, Eddie will have England spitting fire in the opening exchanges. Scotland need to hang on in there, and continue to take advantage of any chances we get. I totally agree about your bench, it could well prove the point of difference, especially in the front row where we are especially weak this year.

Scotland's last 2 away wins against sides who weren't Italy were Wales in 2002 and Ireland in 2010.

The odds are stacked against Scotland but as long as they believe they can win..... there is hope.

A red card would help too.

Not my bench, EST, England's bench! I'll hopefully be able to watch you two draw having seen us win in Cardiff, meaning that any sort of win on the last day in Dublin will do us nicely.

As it happens, I think that you'll do more than hang on in there. As I may have mentioned before, though, I just have this nagging doubt that you really think that you can win at Twickers. I was interested to read something Lewis Moody said not so long ago about playing Scotland - almost the hardest game of the season when it was played at Murrayfield, he reckoned, as though it was a different side, totally lacking in conviction when they came to London. The Scots have only once come within bonus point range in the land of the prawn sandwich this millennium and it still makes very little sense to me.

You'd come so close to beating Wales over the last few years that I reckon your players really felt that they were there for the taking this time. I don't know about England.

Our bench is certainly a weakness currently and may hold us back from taking our results to the next level (i.e. beating England!)

LH - Dell, young and inexperienced
H - Ford, very experienced and will solidify the scrums
TH - Berghan, 1 cap and lacking experience as a pro never mind international level
L - Swinson, good hard working player but near the bottom of the list in terms of quality of 6N locks out of any team (except Italy)
BR - either Denton who is lacking match fitness, CDP who is uncapped and on poor form or Harley who offers limited impact off the bench

SH - Pyrgos, good solid player but curently lacking form
SO - Weir
OC - Bennett, ex-factor player but lacking in physicality if we lose Dunbar early

captain carrantuohil wrote:Not my bench, EST, England's bench! I'll hopefully be able to watch you two draw having seen us win in Cardiff, meaning that any sort of win on the last day in Dublin will do us nicely.

As it happens, I think that you'll do more than hang on in there. As I may have mentioned before, though, I just have this nagging doubt that you really think that you can win at Twickers. I was interested to read something Lewis Moody said not so long ago about playing Scotland - almost the hardest game of the season when it was played at Murrayfield, he reckoned, as though it was a different side, totally lacking in conviction when they came to London. The Scots have only once come within bonus point range in the land of the prawn sandwich this millennium and it still makes very little sense to me.

You'd come so close to beating Wales over the last few years that I reckon your players really felt that they were there for the taking this time. I don't know about England.

Apologies CC! I certainly think there is a mental block, perhaps most eloquently put in a recent interview with Jim Telfer somewhere on the Beeb. If that applies to this generation, I'm less sure. Hogg, Russell etc are pretty confident guys from a totally new school - hopefully they go down there and play without any fear.

RDW Scotland not just England, England away.

It's the next step Scotland must get - a big win away from home.

It's also partly why I thought you'd beat Ireland and Wales but lose to France.

This England team have proven they can get results home and away, it's been the difference so far in the competition.

beshocked wrote:RDW Scotland not just England, England away.

It's the next step Scotland must get - a big win away from home.

It's also partly why I thought you'd beat Ireland and Wales but lose to France.

This England team have proven they can get results home and away, it's been the difference so far in the competition.

It is more of a giant leap and to be fair if way fail to do so it is no way the end of the world. Our 6N record is absolutely rotten so given that we've already beaten Wales and Ireland - and will hopefully beat Italy - 3 wins will be our best performance since 2006. That was 11 years ago! Given that this team is still relatively young I think that represents very good progress:

2015 - 0 wins
2016 - 2 wins
2017 - 3 wins (hopefully)

We may struggle next year with only 2 games at home but in 2 years time this team should be in its absolute prime of age range and experience.

I'll be gutted if we lose to England but if we then go on to get a good win over Italy I think this 6N could be classed as a big success.

beshocked wrote:RDW Scotland not just England, England away.

It's the next step Scotland must get - a big win away from home.

It's also partly why I thought you'd beat Ireland and Wales but lose to France.

This England team have proven they can get results home and away, it's been the difference so far in the competition.

It's a good point, England are the only team to win an away game that wasn't in Rome.

If someone else is to win the Championship, they'll have to do similar.

It's a big success already agreed. Wins over Ireland and Wales are good.

I am just saying the next objective should be away wins vs sides not called Italy.

Staying in 2nd tier seeding for RWC is good though.

Looks like we'll see one of the bigger teams dropping to 3rd tier again.

Good lord would I love a win over England, so many potential video ideas if we do!

GLove39 wrote:Good lord would I love a win over England, so many potential video ideas if we do!

It is not impossible, but it is unlikely. Like I said though it's nice to be in with a sniff of winning something like the triple crown, that'll just add an extra bit of spice.

The big difference I see in Scotland this year (in addition to skill and pace) is that they're all enjoying their rugby and seem a very close knit group.

There are no signs of pressure, expectation, dread etc. etc.

What is also nice to see, is they get involved in a bit of niggle. For too long they've been, for want of a better word, pus*ies. Bullied like a wee kid in the playground.

It's nice to see that they've stopped taking sh*t from anyone.

Agree, tattie, although that enjoyment is usually a by-product of winning. Some cynical Scottish sportsman once said that team spirit was an illusion glimpsed in victory!

If England do manage to get ahead early, it will be the supreme test of the tightness of this group, young as it is, to suck it up, not let their heads drop and give it back to the old enemy. If they manage that, you may be looking at a real triumph in 2018, which, three away games or not, has the great benefit of ending in an even number, traditionally Scotland's favourite years.

I'd have to say that I seem to remember that the Scots always liked niggle. Don't be putting yourself down Tattie. Niggling was a specialty of that low slung forward lad, what was his name? Allan Jacobsen (Chunk) - he never took a backward step in a fight.

I thought the French bullied Scotland physically. England should look to do the same.

England perhaps aren't quite as brutish as the French players but still have players who can potentially overpower the smaller Scottish ones.

Looking at backrow weights -

Scotland

Barclay - 16 st, 6,2
Watson - 16 st, 6,1
Hardie - 16 st, 6,0
Wilson - 16st 7, 6,3


England

Itoje - 18.5st, 6,6
Haskell -18st.8, 6,4
Hughes - 20 st, 6,5

Quite a weight difference regardless of who of the Scottish options in the backrow are picked.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:The big difference I see in Scotland this year (in addition to skill and pace) is that they're all enjoying their rugby and seem a very close knit group.

There are no signs of pressure, expectation, dread etc. etc.

What is also nice to see, is they get involved in a bit of niggle. For too long they've been, for want of a better word, pus*ies. Bullied like a wee kid in the playground.

It's nice to see that they've stopped taking sh*t from anyone.

I dunno, I reckon Hogg must be constantly on edge just waiting for Barclay to jump out at him again

beshocked wrote:I thought the French bullied Scotland physically. England should look to do the same.

England perhaps aren't quite as brutish as the French players but still have players who can potentially overpower the smaller Scottish ones.

Looking at backrow weights -

Scotland

Barclay - 16 st, 6,2
Watson - 16 st, 6,1
Hardie - 16 st, 6,3
Wilson - 16st 7, 6,3


England

Itoje - 18.5st, 6,6
Haskell -18st.8, 6,4
Hughes - 20 st, 6,5

Quite a weight difference regardless of who of the Scottish options in the backrow are picked.

There is absolutely no chance that Hardie is 6ft 3!

beshocked wrote:

Scotland

Barclay - 16 st, 6,2
Watson - 16 st, 6,1
Hardie - 16 st, 6,3
Wilson - 16st 7, 6,3


England

Itoje - 18.5st, 6,6
Haskell -18st.8, 6,4
Hughes - 20 st, 6,5

Quite a weight difference regardless of who of the Scottish options in the backrow are picked.

What do the English lads feed themselves? Has anyone seen them eating?

captain carrantuohil wrote:Agree, tattie, although that enjoyment is usually a by-product of winning. Some cynical Scottish sportsman once said that team spirit was an illusion glimpsed in victory!

If England do manage to get ahead early, it will be the supreme test of the tightness of this group, young as it is, to suck it up, not let their heads drop and give it back to the old enemy. If they manage that, you may be looking at a real triumph in 2018, which, three away games or not, has the great benefit of ending in an even number, traditionally Scotland's favourite years.

I can't remember the year exactly, or even the opposition, but what I do remember is that Scotland had literally been given a proper hiding.....a real disgusting result - nearly as bad as being nilled at home by England fairly recently. It wasn't really a surprise back then, but at the end of the match, I distinctly remember watching Dan Parks and a few other players laughing and joking their way off the pitch as if they hadn't a care in the world. I was absolutely f**king raging at that. They should have been hanging their heads in shame and been completely embarrassed.

Two years ago at Twickenham, Scotland led at halftime, and then lost the second half without scoring a single point. If that were to happen this year, I'd be more confident of Scotland adding more points. Whether it would be enough is another thing.

Looking forward to a cracking game though. Twickenham is my least favourite ground I've been to but I am sorely tempted to go this year.

My bad it's 6,0. I wrote it down wrong. Though it's wiki so not exactly going for optimum accuracy.

Picking a second row in the backrow obviously adds weight.

Even Clifford who I think is light is 17st, 7 , 6,4.

Tom Wood at almost 18st, 6,4

So most English backrowers heavier and bigger than the Scots.

Even the Gray bros aren't much heavier than Launchbury and Lawes to make up for the significant weight difference there will be when looking at backrows.

I've seen Hardie in the flesh and I don't think he's even 6 foot.

Anyway, the bigger they are, the harder they fall

GLove39 wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:The big difference I see in Scotland this year (in addition to skill and pace) is that they're all enjoying their rugby and seem a very close knit group.

There are no signs of pressure, expectation, dread etc. etc.

What is also nice to see, is they get involved in a bit of niggle. For too long they've been, for want of a better word, pus*ies. Bullied like a wee kid in the playground.

It's nice to see that they've stopped taking sh*t from anyone.

I dunno, I reckon Hogg must be constantly on edge just waiting for Barclay to jump out at him again

Ha ha....three times he's got him now.

Second one was best. He proper sh*t himself.

SecretFly wrote:I'd have to say that I seem to remember that the Scots always liked niggle.  Don't be putting yourself down Tattie.  Niggling was a specialty of that low slung forward lad, what was his name? Allan Jacobsen (Chunk) - he never took a backward step in a fight.

That's one way of describing him!

beshocked wrote:I thought the French bullied Scotland physically. England should look to do the same.

England perhaps aren't quite as brutish as the French players but still have players who can potentially overpower the smaller Scottish ones.

Looking at backrow weights -

Scotland

Barclay - 16 st, 6,2
Watson - 16 st, 6,1
Hardie - 16 st, 6,0
Wilson - 16st 7, 6,3


England

Itoje - 18.5st, 6,6
Haskell -18st.8, 6,4
Hughes - 20 st, 6,5

Quite a weight difference regardless of who of the Scottish options in the backrow are picked.

That's why I want to scrum, lineout, maul over and over again.

And that is why our forwards will look to keep the game moving. That puts us onto the next question, the ref.

Mathieu Raynes anyone heard of him? He's new to me and I have no idea how he'd interpret the breakdown.

Was going to ask the same question. French refs, at least recently, have tended to prefer to side with the more dominant forward pack at scrummage time, but having not seen M. Raynal in action, I'd be guessing. In Garces, they've got the bloke whom I regard as the current top international dog (as good as Owens and doesn't showboat), so we can hope that they've unearthed another who will at least be consistent in his interpretation.

According to his Wikipedia page he reffed the Scotland vs Tonga game in 2012, since I've bored the memory of that game out of my mind with a hammer drill I can't remember what happened... Anyone shed any light on his reffing ability?

He was the referee who told Connacht they could kick a pen to touch for a lineout after time was up which led to them winning vs Wasps.

So he's not exactly brilliant.

He was also the ref when Glasgow demolished Tigers at Welford Road.
Clear omen. ADVANTAGE SCOTLAND.

GLove39 wrote:He was also the ref when Glasgow demolished Tigers at Welford Road.
Clear omen. ADVANTAGE SCOTLAND.

Well he let Glasgow move the ball around the breakdown area we'll there so that's a bonus.

At the same time, you could have had Coco the clown reffing that game and Glasgow would still have won in a hack canter. I wasn't aware that Tigers forwards had reached the breakdown by the time the ball had moved on somewhere else.

Scottrf wrote:He was the referee who told Connacht they could kick a pen to touch for a lineout after time was up which led to them winning vs Wasps.

That alone should have barred him from international duty for at least a year so he could go away and learn the laws - no excuse that it was being trialled somewhere else ...

Joseph recalled to England squad, Slade omitted. http://www.englandrugby.com/news/squad-assembles-oxford-for-training-week/

Isn't it great when you have big names out and you're still disappointed by players being dropped from the training squad, let alone the team.

What do the English lads feed themselves? Has anyone seen them eating?

Scottish back row forwards.

robbo277 wrote:

What do the English lads feed themselves? Has anyone seen them eating?

Scottish back row forwards.

Not enough meat on them.

Scottrf wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

What do the English lads feed themselves? Has anyone seen them eating?

Scottish back row forwards.

Not enough meat on them.

The size of the meat isn't important, it's what you do with it that counts.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

What do the English lads feed themselves? Has anyone seen them eating?

Scottish back row forwards.

Not enough meat on them.

The size of the meat isn't important, it's what you do with it that counts.

Wife tell you that did she?

Anyway, I fully expect a highly disciplined Scottish pack and extremely dangerous back 3 to do England at home. At this point i reckon you'll win by 5 points but as the game gets closer inevitably that margin will grow exponentially. By next Wednesday should be at least a 20 point margin.

There are a lot of Scots first team who are injured, right? Could be a difference maker.
Despite that, I still expect this to be tight as drum. if England do go ahead and win, the match in Dublin will make nuclear detonations seem quiet and subdued.

Sounds like England had no real knocks at the weekend. Eddie Jones was exaggerating when talking about not playing any rugby, but the match wasn't really hard physically.

Most of the England squad will be pretty fresh for the Scotland game, which ought to help. Then again, it'll be four weeks since the Wales game, so many won't actually have played at a normal test match intensity and tempo for a while either.

Good job LT. Er. Who is the England team rep at the top of the thread? 

It looks like my old geography teacher but I'm going to say that I think it's probably not her.