6N 2017: England vs Scotland

beshocked wrote:Was impressed by Genge for Tigers vs Quins, his passing for a LH prop was arguably better than some of the England backs at times! Plus his power.

Shows that LH prop is a strong position for England.

England seem to be developing more all round frontrow forwards.

That's where England generally holds the advantage against many sides. In some positions we have great depth.

Lawes,Launchbury,Itoje and Kruis is a great position to be in 2nd row!

LH - Mako,Marler,Mullan, Genge.

Genge isn't a bad 4th choice!

RDW Scotland if I was Scottish I would worry about the potential defensive frailties in that backline. Could be great going forward but England haven't leaked too many tries.

Plus seems to lack a bit of power IMO.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Scotland will be the biggest test for this England defense so far I think. Italy Scored in the wide chanels and I'd wager Hogg, Visser and Seymour are more of a threat than Italy.

robbo277 wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Scotland will be the biggest test for this England defense so far I think. Italy Scored in the wide chanels and I'd wager Hogg, Visser and Seymour are more of a threat than Italy.

I think Scotland will pose a bigger threat than we've faced so far, but I think this statement possibly a little bit harsh on Campagnaro.

He is a very classy player and, although possibly a touch behind Hogg, is every bit as good as Visser or Seymour. Regardless of Italy's shortcomings elsewhere, it was Campagnaro who scored in the wide channel, and he did so by skillfully evading a couple tackles and then stepping the fullback. It shows there is perhaps a vulnerability there, but it still took a very good player to exploit it.

captain carrantuohil wrote:I would normally like Scotland's chances on March 11th - they've undoubtedly played better this tournament and have more players somewhere near the top of their game than England at the moment.

What I find even harder to ignore, though, is Scotland's abnormally rancid record at Twickenham. This goes beyond bad into the realms of the other-worldly awful. No valid explanation for it and England have usually managed to beat Scotland at Twickers, even with woeful sides up against far better Scottish ones. It's in the psyche now, I have to believe, after 4 wins in over 100 years, two since the war and none at all since Kajagoogoo were at Number One (my God, I'm old).

I just have a feeling that home advantage will count again, England will teeter on unconvincingly to Dublin and it will be left to Ireland, I hope, to administer the defeat that England's overall form in this campaign will generally have merited.

beshocked wrote:Not sure I'd say Scotland have the better breakdown operators. Just depends who England picks to start.

Wouldn't surprise me if Itoje causes Scotland real problems just as he did Italy both at lineout and breakdown. Should be a worry for Scotland that he looked much more comfortable.

If Launchbury,Lawes, Itoje combine to swallow up Russell he could be in trouble.

Scotland might have a better starting backline but England have that superior depth.

I think the pressure is more on individuals rather than England as a whole - more pressure on Hughes,Hartley,Brown,Ford and Farrell.

TrailApe wrote:This is THE game for me. You Southerners might relish the Welsh games but Scotland are the ones that I want to beat most.

We have History with these Lads.

TrailApe wrote:This is THE game for me. You Southerners might relish the Welsh games but Scotland are the ones that I want to beat most.

We have History with these Lads.

I'm nervous, we have played crap so far and could get burnt.

I'm not big on listing who I think should be in the Team - in Eddy We Trust - but whoever goes out onto the park had better play to their potential or that bloody Telfer will be honking on about it until they lay him down under his Border turf.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Scotland will be the biggest test for this England defense so far I think. Italy Scored in the wide chanels and I'd wager Hogg, Visser and Seymour are more of a threat than Italy.

I think Scotland will pose a bigger threat than we've faced so far, but I think this statement possibly a little bit harsh on Campagnaro.

He is a very classy player and, although possibly a touch behind Hogg, is every bit as good as Visser or Seymour. Regardless of Italy's shortcomings elsewhere, it was Campagnaro who scored in the wide channel, and he did so by skillfully evading a couple tackles and then stepping the fullback. It shows there is perhaps a vulnerability there, but it still took a very good player to exploit it.

Yeah he was tremendous from inside centre. Huw Jones is every bit as good though and then he has the lethal strike runners outside. It'll be a cracking match with England having the advantage in power up front but I'd argue Scotland have the better breakdown operators and the better backline.

I really cant call it. England are the favourites despite what Eddie Jones says and the pressure is on them as they chase down this winning record.

R!skysports wrote:Whoa there boys and girls

England are MASSIVE favourites for this game.

They are in a record winning run
Played below their best and still won
Have a stronger depth of squad
Had their terrible game and still won easily
Have a strong smothering defence with will be tough for us to combat
Are at home
Will be more physical and we have struggled against power


We can win, and we have a chance, but lets not get carried away that we are favourites.

We will need to play a full game of good stuff (we have only managed it in 2 x halfs so far (Ireland first half, Wales second half) and were poor against France

We have done well for the 2 wins, but need to play a lot better across a whole game to have a chance of winning

TrailApe wrote:Riskysports - if that was an attempt to appease the Gods of Fate

4/10

Must Try Harder

The English have just scraped past in their games so far and nearly got beat by Italy in Twickenham FFS - they were trailing by 5 at half time and just squeaked past in the last ten minutes. They seem to be lacking in energy and ideas. The Welsh got 8 turnovers against us, I reckon the Scots will get more and the Scots have the backline to turn that into points, this game will mark the fact that Eddie's honeymoon period is over.

Scotland by 8.

RDW_Scotland wrote:As a Scottish man living in London now, and with an English born dad, it perhaps isn't much of a surprise that I don't hold any animosity to all things English.  Indeed before the championship I was wanting to beat the Welsh more than the English!

Of course there have been many English players that I have disliked over the years - I almost broke up with the wife when she said Austen Healy looked hot on Strictly Come Dancing - but they were typically players that everyone else hated anyway.

Indeed I was even cheering England on during the 2003 world cup.

Saying that - I hope we absolutely smash the Brexit voting, tea drinking, polite queue forming, morris dancing, Cricket playing, TOWIE watching, real ale drinking, pie and mash eating, public transport complaining, tube striking, southern rail shambles-ing, Ant and Dec loving barstewards!!!!  

Ahem.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

beshocked wrote:Not sure I'd say Scotland have the better breakdown operators. Just depends who England picks to start.

Wouldn't surprise me if Itoje causes Scotland real problems just as he did Italy both at lineout and breakdown. Should be a worry for Scotland that he looked much more comfortable.

If Launchbury,Lawes, Itoje combine to swallow up Russell he could be in trouble.

Scotland might have a better starting backline but England have that superior depth.

I think the pressure is more on individuals rather than England as a whole - more pressure on Hughes,Hartley,Brown,Ford and Farrell.

I'm not sure I would either. I think they do, but I'm not sure. Certainly Watson, Barclay and Wilson kept Tipuric, Warburton and Moriarty very quiet on Saturday, a feat England failed to do in their match against Wales. For Scotland Watson has been IMO our player of the tournament thusfar.

Sure Hogg has been scoring tries and the Gray brothers have been tackling anything that moves. However Watson has just been an absolute menace. England haven't come up against a player like that yet. They've had to deal with the physicality of the French and Welsh backrow but haven't yet came up against a player with such an apparent disregard for his own safety such as Watson who seems to be virtually immovable once over the ball.

He I think will be a man who'll be well marked at Twickenham if the England Video coaches have anything to say about it.

Again the England backrow appears to be big on power but low on finesse. Barclay, Wilson and Watson are clearly under powered against that monstrous backrow especially with the incredible Itoje at 6. I think that will give us an advantage at the breakdown but again I can't be sure.

It's 2 very different schools of thought in England and Scotland's approach to the breakdown that IMO will make this such a fascinating contest.

Recwatcher16 wrote:Apart from the Brexit voting, the rest are quite quaint !!
I don't get Towie where everyone has fake tans but then Essex is a funny place anyway......

Still haven't been convinced by anything suggested,, to see a Scottish win....tempting fate, I know.....

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

beshocked wrote:Not sure I'd say Scotland have the better breakdown operators. Just depends who England picks to start.

Wouldn't surprise me if Itoje causes Scotland real problems just as he did Italy both at lineout and breakdown. Should be a worry for Scotland that he looked much more comfortable.

If Launchbury,Lawes, Itoje combine to swallow up Russell he could be in trouble.

Scotland might have a better starting backline but England have that superior depth.

I think the pressure is more on individuals rather than England as a whole - more pressure on Hughes,Hartley,Brown,Ford and Farrell.

I'm not sure I would either. I think they do, but I'm not sure. Certainly Watson, Barclay and Wilson kept Tipuric, Warburton and Moriarty very quiet on Saturday, a feat England failed to do in their match against Wales. For Scotland Watson has been IMO our player of the tournament thusfar.

Sure Hogg has been scoring tries and the Gray brothers have been tackling anything that moves. However Watson has just been an absolute menace. England haven't come up against a player like that yet. They've had to deal with the physicality of the French and Welsh backrow but haven't yet came up against a player with such an apparent disregard for his own safety such as Watson who seems to be virtually immovable once over the ball.

He I think will be a man who'll be well marked at Twickenham if the England Video coaches have anything to say about it.

Again the England backrow appears to be big on power but low on finesse. Barclay, Wilson and Watson are clearly under powered against that monstrous backrow especially with the incredible Itoje at 6. I think that will give us an advantage at the breakdown but again I can't be sure.

It's 2 very different schools of thought in England and Scotland's approach to the breakdown that IMO will make this such a fascinating contest.

beshocked wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

beshocked wrote:Not sure I'd say Scotland have the better breakdown operators. Just depends who England picks to start.

Wouldn't surprise me if Itoje causes Scotland real problems just as he did Italy both at lineout and breakdown. Should be a worry for Scotland that he looked much more comfortable.

If Launchbury,Lawes, Itoje combine to swallow up Russell he could be in trouble.

Scotland might have a better starting backline but England have that superior depth.

I think the pressure is more on individuals rather than England as a whole - more pressure on Hughes,Hartley,Brown,Ford and Farrell.

I'm not sure I would either. I think they do, but I'm not sure. Certainly Watson, Barclay and Wilson kept Tipuric, Warburton and Moriarty very quiet on Saturday, a feat England failed to do in their match against Wales. For Scotland Watson has been IMO our player of the tournament thusfar.

Sure Hogg has been scoring tries and the Gray brothers have been tackling anything that moves. However Watson has just been an absolute menace. England haven't come up against a player like that yet. They've had to deal with the physicality of the French and Welsh backrow but haven't yet came up against a player with such an apparent disregard for his own safety such as Watson who seems to be virtually immovable once over the ball.

He I think will be a man who'll be well marked at Twickenham if the England Video coaches have anything to say about it.

Again the England backrow appears to be big on power but low on finesse. Barclay, Wilson and Watson are clearly under powered against that monstrous backrow especially with the incredible Itoje at 6. I think that will give us an advantage at the breakdown but again I can't be sure.

It's 2 very different schools of thought in England and Scotland's approach to the breakdown that IMO will make this such a fascinating contest.

ruggerradge2611 things to take into account -

Wales were at home in front of their home fans playing against arguably the team they most relish beating.

England had a inexperienced starting backrow. Itoje is learning all the time, that's the frightening thing. Sure it's only Italy perhaps but he caused the Italians all sorts of problems. He was influential and keeping him quiet for 80 minutes is not easy. Also there's no guarantee Hughes will be as poor as he was vs Italy.


It's inevitable that Wales would have been less fired up and a bit disappointed due to that loss at home.

Itoje isn't low on finesse. He's got power and a good brain too. Sure he still gives away penalties but it's because he competes and disrupts but more often than many others.

Itoje is 2nd in turnovers won with 6.

Watson and Barclay have got 3 each -

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/39180.php#.WLVhyPmLRPY

England's support game will have to be spot on

EWT Spoons wrote:

R!skysports wrote:Whoa there boys and girls

England are MASSIVE favourites for this game.

They are in a record winning run
Played below their best and still won
Have a stronger depth of squad
Had their terrible game and still won easily
Have a strong smothering defence with will be tough for us to combat
Are at home
Will be more physical and we have struggled against power


We can win, and we have a chance, but lets not get carried away that we are favourites.

We will need to play a full game of good stuff (we have only managed it in 2 x halfs so far (Ireland first half, Wales second half) and were poor against France

We have done well for the 2 wins, but need to play a lot better across a whole game to have a chance of winning

100% agree with this.

SecretFly wrote:The mentality is different.
For England its about getting to that final day with their destiny still very much in their hands.  So the next game is a stepping stone.
For Scotland, every subsequent game is becoming the biggest game of their lives.

All they need is another all-or-nothing game of their lives to get to the final all-or-nothing game of their lives.  And they're lucky in that the more important all-or-nothing game is the one coming next.  Italy could beat them but chances are they can afford to really let loose in the English game, empty the tanks and let the Italy game take care of itself

That's been quite pointed now actually, as I think about it.  The games, many of them, have been quite competitive - but have any of the teams really experienced an out and out fist fight where players are coming off in tatters, exhausted and worried about making the next game.  It's been a relatively mild 6N in terms of blood thirsty ferocity so far.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The mentality is different.
For England its about getting to that final day with their destiny still very much in their hands.  So the next game is a stepping stone.
For Scotland, every subsequent game is becoming the biggest game of their lives.

All they need is another all-or-nothing game of their lives to get to the final all-or-nothing game of their lives.  And they're lucky in that the more important all-or-nothing game is the one coming next.  Italy could beat them but chances are they can afford to really let loose in the English game, empty the tanks and let the Italy game take care of itself

That's been quite pointed now actually, as I think about it.  The games, many of them, have been quite competitive - but have any of the teams really experienced an out and out fist fight where players are coming off in tatters, exhausted and worried about making the next game.  It's been a relatively mild 6N in terms of blood thirsty ferocity so far.

The France game was absolutely brutal for us - we lost our captain and main ball carrier and apparently 2/3rd of the squad would have been struggling to be fit if we had a game the week after.

TrailApe wrote:

England's support game will have to be spot on

everything has to be spot on, and so far it's been anything but.

I'm praying that it's all a cunning plan by that sneaky Aussie and we've been hiding our lights under multiple bushels hoping to ambush the Sots and then bushwack the Irish.

Doubt it though...

RDW_Scotland wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The mentality is different.
For England its about getting to that final day with their destiny still very much in their hands.  So the next game is a stepping stone.
For Scotland, every subsequent game is becoming the biggest game of their lives.

All they need is another all-or-nothing game of their lives to get to the final all-or-nothing game of their lives.  And they're lucky in that the more important all-or-nothing game is the one coming next.  Italy could beat them but chances are they can afford to really let loose in the English game, empty the tanks and let the Italy game take care of itself

That's been quite pointed now actually, as I think about it.  The games, many of them, have been quite competitive - but have any of the teams really experienced an out and out fist fight where players are coming off in tatters, exhausted and worried about making the next game.  It's been a relatively mild 6N in terms of blood thirsty ferocity so far.

The France game was absolutely brutal for us - we lost our captain and main ball carrier and his replacement was carried off after a brief appearance; no wonder hors de combat is a French euphemism and apparently 2/3rd of the squad would have been struggling to be fit if we had a game the week after.

R!skysports wrote:Can we please also put this Itoje as a back rower to bed

he has played in the second row, regardless of the number on his back

Scottrf wrote:Lets see if Russell can deal with Lawes in his face

TrailApe wrote:

England's support game will have to be spot on

everything has to be spot on, and so far it's been anything but.

I'm praying that it's all a cunning plan by that sneaky Aussie and we've been hiding our lights under multiple bushels hoping to ambush the Scots and then bushwack the Irish.

Doubt it though...

R!skysports wrote:Can we please also put this Itoje as a back rower to bed

he has played in the second row, regardless of the number on his back

Poorfour wrote:I think Scotland are going to struggle for primary possession. The scrum was under huge pressure against France, and England have a near full strength scrum and strong replacements. Scotland made good ground harrying the Welsh lineout, but I think England's is likely to be more secure and they have a good chance to disrupt the Scotland throw.

That suggests to me that for England the support game, as robbo has said, and the precision of kicking and kick chase need to be stronger than it has to date.

But I also think this England side is a tough side to break; right now, they make too many mistakes to be really on the top of their game, but one important way in which they are like the All Blacks is that they are patient and don't try to force the game. They play as if they always believe they can find a way to win, something that even the 2003 squad didn't gain until much later in their development.

beshocked wrote:

R!skysports wrote:Can we please also put this Itoje as a back rower to bed

he has played in the second row, regardless of the number on his back

Who is playing in the backrow then? Lawes?

Itoje packs down in the scrum in the 2nd row because he's supposedly a better scrummager than Lawes. Itoje around the field operates more like a backrower.

RDW Scotland I don't think that will be the case. Too many England players out of form. As long as England are within 7 points of Scotland with 20 minutes to go I'd back England to win every time though.

To win - I think Scotland need to have a 10 + lead with 20 to go IMO as the inevitable England surge from the bench should happen.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

I agree with this point. We seem to be improving our efficiency with opportunities. That's one thing the AB's have held over everyone in the world...when they get one chance...BAM they score. That's why they're so lethal...even with 1-2 mins left on the clock.
They know if they get a chance, they will score simple as that.

Poorfour wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

I agree with this point. We seem to be improving our efficiency with opportunities. That's one thing the AB's have held over everyone in the world...when they get one chance...BAM they score. That's why they're so lethal...even with 1-2 mins left on the clock.
They know if they get a chance, they will score simple as that.

And England are now quite good at doing exactly the same with 1-2 minutes left on the clock. It's the other 78 I worry about...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I think Scotland are going to struggle for primary possession. The scrum was under huge pressure against France, and England have a near full strength scrum and strong replacements. Scotland made good ground harrying the Welsh lineout, but I think England's is likely to be more secure and they have a good chance to disrupt the Scotland throw.

That suggests to me that for England the support game, as robbo has said, and the precision of kicking and kick chase need to be stronger than it has to date.

But I also think this England side is a tough side to break; right now, they make too many mistakes to be really on the top of their game, but one important way in which they are like the All Blacks is that they are patient and don't try to force the game. They play as if they always believe they can find a way to win, something that even the 2003 squad didn't gain until much later in their development.

I agree with this point. We seem to be improving our efficiency with opportunities. That's one thing the AB's have held over everyone in the world...when they get one chance...BAM they score. That's why they're so lethal...even with 1-2 mins left on the clock.
They know if they get a chance, they will score simple as that.