6N 2017: Wales v Ireland, 10 March

First topic message reminder :


WALES v IRELAND
10 March 2017
KO: 20:05 GMT
Principality Stadium, Cardiff

Live on [ITV, RTE, SC4, FR2, DMAX / BBC (H)]

Referee: Wayne Barnes (England)
Touch judges: [tbc]
TMO: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

124 Played 124
50 Won 67
7 Drawn 7
67 Lost 50
1,477 Points 1,381

B. Recent Form

7 February 2016
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
16 – 16 draw

29 August 2015
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
10 – 16 to Wales

8 August 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
21 – 35 to Ireland

14 March 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 16 to Wales

8 February 2014
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
26 – 3 to Ireland

2 February 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
22 – 30 to Ireland

5 February 2012
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
21 – 23 to Wales

8 October 2011
Regional Stadium, Wellington, New Zealand
22 – 10 to Wales

C. Teams

WALES 


Halfpenny; North, J Davies, S Williams, L Williams, Biggar, Webb, Evans, Owens, Francis, Ball, A Jones, Warburton, Tipuric, Moriarty.

Replacements: Roberts for S Williams (67), S Davies for Biggar (80), G Davies for Webb (67), Smith for Evans (67), Baldwin for Owens (72), Lee for Francis (70), Charteris for Ball (63), Faletau for Moriarty (67).

IRELAND


Kearney; Earls, Ringrose, Henshaw, Zebo; Sexton, Murray; McGrath, Best, Furlong, D Ryan, Toner, Stander, O'Brien, Heaslip.

Replacements: Bowe for Kearney (70), Jackson for Sexton (19), Marmion for Murray (46), C Healy for McGrath (59), Scannell for Best (80), J Ryan for Furlong (80), Henderson for Toner (63), O'Mahony for Stander (63).

Gooseberry wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:We're playing Scotland.

Ireland are a very good team, I think we have a good chance of losing when we play them.

What if England lose and Ireland win. Three horse race on the last day. That would be epic.

If both England and Ireland lose and France win then it goes to crazy town with 5 teams theoreticaly in it ....although everyone would be reliant on Italy doing a big favour!

I think it would be great for the tournament if Scotland won.

Not going to happen.

Wales team to face Ireland announced

Wales: Leigh Halfpenny; George North, Jonathan Davies, Scott Williams, Liam Williams; Dan Biggar, Rhys Webb; Rob Evans, Ken Owens, Tomas Francis; Jake Ball, Alun Wyn Jones; Sam Warburton, Justin Tipuric, Ross Moriarty.

Subs: Scott Baldwin, Nicky Smith, Samson Lee, Luke Charteris, Taulupe Faletau, Gareth Davies, Sam Davies, Jamie Roberts.


FFS

munkian wrote:Wales team to face lose to Ireland announced

Wales: Leigh Halfpenny; George North, Jonathan Davies, Scott Williams, Liam Williams; Dan Biggar, Rhys Webb; Rob Evans, Ken Owens, Tomas Francis; Jake Ball, Alun Wyn Jones; Sam Warburton, Justin Tipuric, Ross Moriarty.

Subs: Scott Baldwin, Nicky Smith, Samson Lee, Luke Charteris, Taulupe Faletau, Gareth Davies, Sam Davies, Jamie Roberts.


FFS  

Fixed that for you

This is good. Inflexible / stubborn / clueless coaches + defeat in the next two games = the WRU having to make changes.

Wow.
Howley has been very bold with his team this time.
I'm shocked.

What changes did you want to see?

Scottrf wrote:What changes did you want to see?

Charteris on for Ball, Moriarty Warbs and Faletau my backrow.

Someone other than Roberts who offers absolutely nothing off the bench.

I can hear Howley now: 'we wanted to give this group of players the chance to put things right this weekend.' I'm sorry, but that's code for 'I have no confidence in my own abilities or the abilities of the young players at my disposal.'

Well if consistency of selection were to become a virtue in of itself, you'd be giving full marks to the Wales coaches!

Its beyond embarrassing. And he'll blame the players/roof/ref/sunspots when we lose.

He's being paid a hell of a lot of money to do the job, and part of the job is to make tough calls. Basically he's shirked his responsibilities. This is coaching cowardice.

Scottrf wrote:What changes did you want to see?

Personally I glad he's picked the same team as an ireland fan.

But if I was Welsh I would want Williams at Fullback as he is more of an attacking threat than halfp. I would want someone who can pass at 13 ( shall we take bets on the amount of times jd2 passes behind the winger or straight I to touch?)
And one of your young quick wingers should get a chance.
Not sure about the fat lads as I don't know who else you have, but I do fear Moriarty if he's in one of his destroy everyone moods

munkian wrote:

Scottrf wrote:What changes did you want to see?

Charteris on for Ball, Moriarty Warbs and Faletau my backrow.

Someone other than Roberts who offers absolutely nothing off the bench.

Agreed. Roberts should either start, and you build your attack around his direct running, or you leave him out. He is a specialist 12 and therefore offers little by way of versatility. Having him come on with Jiffy Junior makes so sense, as you have an expansive maverick 10 coming on at the same time as a head down crash ball 12. Yes, you can do clever wrap arounds with that sort of combination but really I'd say that Davies would prefer to have Scott Williams as his 12. What's happened to Matt Morgan, he looked like a tailor made impact sub last time I saw him play?

I would also select Moriarty at 6 and give Faletau back the 8 jersey, with Tipuric coming on for impact.

Also, how do the Welsh feel about Halfpenny at 15? With Biggar also in the side his goal kicking isn't of such importance, and I do wonder whether Liam Williams is wasted a bit on the wing. Are there no young Welsh flyers who could use a couple of games in the 6 Nations, now that Howley has conceded that the title is out of reach? You could then have Halfpenny on the bench covering the back three (and could come on at the same time as Davies if you wanted to withdraw Biggar and needed an expert goal kicker)?

Still, he hasn't picked Alex Cuthbert, and I'm sure he knows what he's doing....

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:He's being paid a hell of a lot of money to do the job, and part of the job is to make tough calls. Basically he's shirked his responsibilities. This is coaching cowardice.

Or is it a a tough call to back the young Moriarty against Falateu, knowing it might also cost the "estalblished star" a chance to prove himself for the Lions?

Is it cowardice to go with what you beleive is right and ignore the clamour fromn the twitterati?

Is the soft option to go with a fans phone vote on who should be in the team then blame it on them rather than taking repsosnbility to live by your own decisions?


Disagree with the selections by all means... but Howley cant really be accussed of coarwdice. It takes enough guts to walk around admitting your a Wales coach for this many years.

What could Howley do, the players need to step up to the plate themselves!

Gooseberry wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:He's being paid a hell of a lot of money to do the job, and part of the job is to make tough calls. Basically he's shirked his responsibilities. This is coaching cowardice.

Or is it a  a tough call to back the young Moriarty against Falateu, knowing it might also cost the "estalblished star" a chance to prove himself for the Lions?

Is it cowardice to go with what you beleive is right and ignore the clamour fromn the twitterati?

Is the soft option to go with a fans phone vote on who should be in the team then blame it on them rather than taking repsosnbility to live by your own decisions?


Disagree with the selections by all means... but Howley cant really be accussed of coarwdice. It takes enough guts to walk around admitting your a Wales coach for this many years.

Moriarty is a 6, Faletau is an 8, Warburton a more 'classic' 7 - its not rocket science.

Also, what the hell is wrong with your spellchecker ?

TightHEAD wrote:What could Howley do, the players need to step up to the plate themselves!

I dunno, he could possibly pick the best players in the best positions ?

Agree on Williams at 15 by the way, Halfpenny still has pace enough for the wing.

Scottrf wrote:What changes did you want to see?

Katherine Jenkins at scrum half, Tom Jones at lock, Rhys Ifans at no 8, Catherine Zeta-Jones at 10 and a toasted Ceredigion cheddar sandwich on the wing.

Now that would be thinking outside the box. I would be glued to this match if that was Howley's selection.

munkian wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:What could Howley do, the players need to step up to the plate themselves!

I dunno, he could possibly pick the best players in the best positions ?

Agree on Williams at 15 by the way, Halfpenny still has pace enough for the wing.

What is this Best players thing all the time?

1/2p, North, Biggar etc don't become bad players over night and the 6 nations is not a time to experiment with new players.

TightHEAD wrote:

munkian wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:What could Howley do, the players need to step up to the plate themselves!

I dunno, he could possibly pick the best players in the best positions ?

Agree on Williams at 15 by the way, Halfpenny still has pace enough for the wing.

What is this Best players thing all the time?

1/2p, North, Biggar etc don't become bad players over night and the 6 nations is not a time to experiment with new players.

munkian wrote:Charteris on for Ball, Moriarty Warbs and Faletau my backrow.

Someone other than Roberts who offers absolutely nothing off the bench.

Where did I mention those specific players ? EDIT

munkian wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

munkian wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:What could Howley do, the players need to step up to the plate themselves!

I dunno, he could possibly pick the best players in the best positions ?

Agree on Williams at 15 by the way, Halfpenny still has pace enough for the wing.

What is this Best players thing all the time?

1/2p, North, Biggar etc don't become bad players over night and the 6 nations is not a time to experiment with new players.

munkian wrote:Charteris on for Ball, Moriarty Warbs and Faletau my backrow.

Someone other than Roberts who offers absolutely nothing off the bench.

Where did I mention those specific players ? EDIT

Please the whole of Wales haven't stopped mentioning those players for the past 2 weeks!

funnyExiledScot wrote:

munkian wrote:

Scottrf wrote:What changes did you want to see?

Charteris on for Ball, Moriarty Warbs and Faletau my backrow.

Someone other than Roberts who offers absolutely nothing off the bench.

What's happened to Matt Morgan, he looked like a tailor made impact sub last time I saw him play?

He's got that unfortunate attribute of being extremely skilled and talented with ball in hand but, at 6 stone soaking wet, is just not able to do the 2nd half of the job that players need to do. In the space of 2 minutes he can run the length of the pitch and score try of the century, and then let the opposition walk through him on the way to a reply try.  He gets run through at club level, so stepping up to international level with bigger and more powerful players just creates a field day for the opposition.  I know it shouldn't all be about defense, but unless you're really dominating your opponent then you're defending 50% of the time (and I suspect against Ireland it will be more like 60% and above).  We could try to shield him by having others cover his tackling for him, but that just leaves gaps elsewhere that any good attacking side can exploit.  Essentially, while defending it's like playing with a man in the sin bin.  Sorry Matthew.

TightHEAD wrote:

munkian wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

munkian wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:What could Howley do, the players need to step up to the plate themselves!

I dunno, he could possibly pick the best players in the best positions ?

Agree on Williams at 15 by the way, Halfpenny still has pace enough for the wing.

What is this Best players thing all the time?

1/2p, North, Biggar etc don't become bad players over night and the 6 nations is not a time to experiment with new players.

munkian wrote:Charteris on for Ball, Moriarty Warbs and Faletau my backrow.

Someone other than Roberts who offers absolutely nothing off the bench.

Where did I mention those specific players ? EDIT

Please the whole of Wales haven't stopped mentioning those players for the past 2 weeks!

So you are creating a strawman argument about nothing anyone has mentioned since the team announcement ?

EDIT

RDW_Scotland wrote:munkain I have had to remove 2 needless personal remarks at the end of your recents posts - please stop doing this.

Apologies, I will continue to pander to the WUMs that are ruining this forum.

I agree about Dr Roberts what does he offer apart from a medical opinion from the bench these days?

munkian wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:munkain I have had to remove 2 needless personal remarks at the end of your recents posts - please stop doing this.

Apologies, I will continue to pander to the WUMs that are ruining this forum.

If you think someone is wumming the easiest thing to do is report them then just ignore them.

Reading your exchange with Tighthead however it looks like fairly constructive rugby discussion (in this instance at least!).

I can see North, Bigger and 1/2p proving the doubters wrong this Friday, fingers crossed they rip Ireland apart and prove a point.

TightHEAD wrote:I can see North, Bigger and 1/2p proving the doubters wrong this Friday, fingers crossed they rip Ireland apart and prove a point.

Bit nervous of England coming to Dublin are we?

carpet baboon wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I can see North, Bigger and 1/2p proving the doubters wrong this Friday, fingers crossed they rip Ireland apart and prove a point.

Bit nervous of England coming to Dublin are we?

Always, but fingers crossed the Championship get wrapped up this weekend.

Back on Topic, how can the WRU expect success when they allow their head coach to leave to coach the Lions. International rugby has change and it is a fulltime job.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:This is good. Inflexible / stubborn / clueless coaches + defeat in the next two games = the WRU having to make changes.

And a profit for me from the book books, for betting Wales to finish fifth. Win win.

The way in which, for me, it is a selection born of weakness (in the coaches) is that performances and results have been diminishing over years with the same group of players playing pretty much the same way; it's obvious that, as a formula, it's had its day, and some of the players who have been part of it either appear to be unable to adapt well or just to be out of form.  Using the same players and watching inadequate performances and results over a period of time - how are things possibly going to improve by more of the same?  It isn't as though any of these players have a dimension we haven't yet seen.  

So the coaches need to come up with a substantially different approach, but they seem unable or unwilling to.  What it looks like is that they are one-trick ponies who don't honestly know what else to try or how they'd try it.  Stubborn persistence in despite of all evidence isn't strength of mind, it's the weakness of not being able to re-think things and come up with something new.  So it is mental cowardice really.  They're just hoping things will go right.  And are too loyal to individual players.

Some of the selections are incomprehensible to me, namely not playing Liam Williams at FB and 1/2p on the wing, and having Dr Bob on the bench. Just about everyone in Wales would put LW at FB.

In many ways, beating Ireland may be the worst thing for us in the long run, even though it would be brilliant to beat such a strong team.  But it is hardly going to encourage them to change, and if we don't, we're going nowhere.

Wales are due a big win against a good team whilst using their tried and tested method, I think Friday will be the day they pull it off as too many of the players are playing for their international careers and Lions plane ticket.

Winzer wrote:The way in which, for me, it is a selection born of weakness (in the coaches) is that performances and results have been diminishing over years with the same group of players playing pretty much the same way; it's obvious that, as a formula, it's had its day, and some of the players who have been part of it either appear to be unable to adapt well or just to be out of form.  Using the same players and watching inadequate performances and results over a period of time - how are things possibly going to improve by more of the same?  It isn't as though any of these players have a dimension we haven't yet seen.  

So the coaches need to come up with a substantially different approach, but they seem unable or unwilling to.  What it looks like is that they are one-trick ponies who don't honestly know what else to try or how they'd try it.  Stubborn persistence in despite of all evidence isn't strength of mind, it's the weakness of not being able to re-think things and come up with something new.  So it is mental cowardice really.  They're just hoping things will go right.  And are too loyal to individual players.

Some of the selections are incomprehensible to me, namely not playing Liam Williams at FB and 1/2p on the wing, and having Dr Bob on the bench.  Just about everyone in Wales would put LW at FB.

In many ways, beating Ireland may be the worst thing for us in the long run, even though it would be brilliant to beat such a strong team.  But it is hardly going to encourage them to change, and if we don't, we're going nowhere.

Hear hear

My word you Welsh are going out of your way with the "we need to loose" "underdogs" "hopeless" routine.
You know that sort of stuff is copyright of us miserable Irish folk. Stop stealing our stuff

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I can hear Howley now: 'we wanted to give this group of players the chance to put things right this weekend.' I'm sorry, but that's code for 'I have no confidence in my own abilities or the abilities of the young players at my disposal.'

"We felt it was important the same group of players had the opportunity to go out and perform on Friday so we have named an unchanged match-day squad," said Howley.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39188244

Also, this old chestnut:

Howley said: "There is a lot of experience in our group. You don't become a bad team overnight."

He's right, you don't; you become a bad side season by season, by not evolving and improving as the teams around you evolve and improve.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I can hear Howley now: 'we wanted to give this group of players the chance to put things right this weekend.' I'm sorry, but that's code for 'I have no confidence in my own abilities or the abilities of the young players at my disposal.'

"We felt it was important the same group of players had the opportunity to go out and perform on Friday so we have named an unchanged match-day squad," said Howley.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39188244

Also, this old chestnut:

Howley said: "There is a lot of experience in our group. You don't become a bad team overnight."

He's right, you don't; you become a bad side season by season, by not evolving and improving as the teams around you evolve and improve.

I think he is projecting a bit here, should read 'You don't become a bad coachingteam overnight[

munkian wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I can hear Howley now: 'we wanted to give this group of players the chance to put things right this weekend.' I'm sorry, but that's code for 'I have no confidence in my own abilities or the abilities of the young players at my disposal.'

"We felt it was important the same group of players had the opportunity to go out and perform on Friday so we have named an unchanged match-day squad," said Howley.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39188244

Also, this old chestnut:

Howley said: "There is a lot of experience in our group. You don't become a bad team overnight."

He's right, you don't; you become a bad side season by season, by not evolving and improving as the teams around you evolve and improve.

I think he is projecting a bit here, should read 'You don't become a bad coachingteam overnight[

Interesting to see David Flatman and Tom Shanklins piece for scrum v where flatman said Wales need a star player. I agree and I have a feeling that Owen Williams should be on the bench ahead of Roberts

Ireland Team & Replacements (v Wales, RBS 6 Nations, Principality Stadium, Friday, March 10, 8.05pm)

15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 75 caps
14. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 57 caps
13. Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) 6 caps
12. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Leinster) 27 caps
11. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) 31 caps
10. Jonathan Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster) 64 caps
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 56 caps

1. Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 39 caps
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 102 caps captain
3. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) 14 caps
4. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster) 45 caps
5. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 45 caps
6. CJ Stander (Shannon/Munster) 13 caps
7. Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster) 47 caps
8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) 94 caps vc

Replacements
16. Niall Scannell (Dolphin/Munster) 2 cap
17. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 65 caps
18. John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 4 cap
19. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 30 caps
20. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 38 caps
21. Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht) 10 caps
22. Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster) 22 caps
23. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 68 caps

Our back 3 is truly the weakest part of our team. The sooner we start blooding Byrne, Sweetnam, TOH and Stockdale the better. Hopefully once the WR ranking points for the RWC seeding is sorted, we will see this happen.

That's my lions pack, but with itoje, kruis/ launchbury, and billy v at 4,5 & 8 respectively.

Two squads pretty much unchanged from two weeks ago except for trimble's injury forcing that switch on the bench.
I still feel the Ireland backrow starting doesn't have a true 7 and this might come to bit during the game with the Welsh backrow far better balanced.
Tight 5s could toss a coin, very even.
Half backs Ireland have the edge on form but Biggar and Webb are capable of matching them.
Centres even.
Wings even.
Fullback nod to 1/2p.
Overall a fairly balanced match up. Wales need to play well to restore pride and get on the plane to NZ for the Lions Friday night game novelty newer to Ireland is it(?) get the impression that Wales have had Friday night games at home before.

Wales by <5 points.

How has Bowe moved above Gilroy again? Did he have a great game for Ulster or something?

the-goon wrote:Our back 3 is truly the weakest part of our team. The sooner we start blooding Byrne, Sweetnam, TOH and Stockdale the better. Hopefully once the WR ranking points for the RWC seeding is sorted, we will see this happen.

It just doesn't give me the feeling of pace. I like the heart of Earls, the fight in that guy is great and Zebo while infuriating at times has the natural talent to make something happen. Kearney also has improved immeasurably in the past 6 months. But in Stockdale, Byrne, Sweetnam, TOH, O'Loughlin there are youngsters of formidable size and great pace that are coming through. In a years time they'll be scary, would love to see Ireland with real pace. Not the pace that makes a break and goes for 10 yards down the field before cover catches, but pace that makes a break and takes it to the house.

Trying to play Devil's advocate here, but would a combined side look like this:

1.McGrath 2.Best 3.Furlong 4.Ball 5.AWJ 6.Stander 7.SOB 8.Heaslip 9.Murray 10.Sexton 11.Zebo 12.Henshaw 13.JD2 14.Williams 15.Halfpenny

Ireland - 10
Wales - 5

A very crude way of measuring the sides, but I suggests to me that man for man Ireland have the better players.

I did debate Murray vs Webb and JD2 vs Ringrose, and decided to rule in favour of Wales on one and Ireland on the other.

Stander vs Warburton will be interesting. Both have played well so far.

maestegmafia wrote:Stander vs Warburton will be interesting. Both have played well so far.

Absolutely. Two very different players, and both on good form this tournament.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

the-goon wrote:Our back 3 is truly the weakest part of our team. The sooner we start blooding Byrne, Sweetnam, TOH and Stockdale the better. Hopefully once the WR ranking points for the RWC seeding is sorted, we will see this happen.

It just doesn't give me the feeling of pace.  I like the heart of Earls, the fight in that guy is great and Zebo while infuriating at times has the natural talent to make something happen.  Kearney also has improved immeasurably in the past 6 months.  But in Stockdale, Byrne, Sweetnam, TOH, O'Loughlin there are youngsters of formidable size and great pace that are coming through.  In a years time they'll be scary, would love to see Ireland with real pace.  Not the pace that makes a break and goes for 10 yards down the field before cover catches, but pace that makes a break and takes it to the house.

Yeah, our back 3 doesn't scare oppositions, Liam Williams, George North, Hogg, Watson, Daly all do. At least that is the impression I get. This is a question for non-Irish fans, when you see Zebo, Earls and Kearney do you think, oh sugar, don't give them space, or are you thinking the threat comes from other parts of the team.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Stander vs Warburton will be interesting. Both have played well so far.

Absolutely. Two very different players, and both on good form this tournament.

There are some great match ups all over..! I think hunk Ireland have the more impressive from row, and Sexton is a better ten than Biggar, (unless Biggar plays at his very best, then nearer even) but otherwise very good match ups.

As you say lots of different style players facing off against each other but all have something to offer.